I would disagree with OP. Arcs are another strategic element to the game. They ARE the focal point of the marines when the "train" pulls out of base. It also means there is less exposure of the marines in a hive. In a perfectly played game (ie. Comp.), they are not generally used because for the cost, getting upgrades and JP is more useful at that skill level. But in pubs, it gives Marines something to focus on if they can't coordinate an assault on a hive (or aliens are just well coordinated). I think it just adds another string to the RTS bow in NS.
So you are basically saying that Arcs are only useful when the marine team is too incompetent to push with teamwork instead.
Pretty much that! As I have noted, they are rarely used in Comp. play because the tRes can be better spent on other things. As Therius has pointed out, it is a more defensive strategy (and for teams that just can't seem to get their **** together). An offensive marine team might go all out and assault a hive location with everything they got (JP, exo and kitchen sink), but they risk a base trade or losing their gear. But a more defensive team might go the Arc train and hang back. It is slower - to get there, but no less valid for a hive take down.
I would disagree with OP. Arcs are another strategic element to the game. They ARE the focal point of the marines when the "train" pulls out of base. It also means there is less exposure of the marines in a hive. In a perfectly played game (ie. Comp.), they are not generally used because for the cost, getting upgrades and JP is more useful at that skill level. But in pubs, it gives Marines something to focus on if they can't coordinate an assault on a hive (or aliens are just well coordinated). I think it just adds another string to the RTS bow in NS.
So you are basically saying that Arcs are only useful when the marine team is too incompetent to push with teamwork instead.
Pretty much that! As I have noted, they are rarely used in Comp. play because the tRes can be better spent on other things. As Therius has pointed out, it is a more defensive strategy (and for teams that just can't seem to get their **** together). An offensive marine team might go all out and assault a hive location with everything they got (JP, exo and kitchen sink), but they risk a base trade or losing their gear. But a more defensive team might go the Arc train and hang back. It is slower - to get there, but no less valid for a hive take down.
It gives an advantage to a team that is being clearly outplayed. I don't want to say arcs are OP because by themselves they certainly aren't, but they seem designed to give the worse team a win which sounds like a bad design to me.
ARCs are probably a relict from the times where Crags where actually able to heal a decent amount of damage and allowed aliens to actually have a durability advantage in their base. You kinda needed ARCs to break through some stacked Crag turtles.
But ever since Crags don't stack anymore, got their healing amount nerfed into oblivion, cost 15 population units (Shade and Shift only cost 10 while being a lot more helpful), are disabled by Flamethrowers and can't be protected by Whips against Grenade Launcher spam, there really is no reason anymore to set up an expensive siege instead of having your marines clear out the Hive, other than for the lulz. Plus Shade Ink actually works against ARC targeting now, so there is even less reason to use them. And since the population limit nerfed alien base defenses into oblivion as well, there is even less of a turtle issue now.
The population limit costs are also way off on alien side compared to the marines. Marines will barely ever run into population cap troubles whereas aliens barely have enough to plant one of each chamber at three Hives. There was a time in BT where the cap actually depended on the number of controlled tech points (100 per TP), rather than having a flat 200 from the start. It also gave marines a reason to actually capture a second CC.
All in all do I miss the old times where aliens could actually have a base that was worth sieging.
As a commander i quite enjoy using ARCs and it gives me a lot more strategies to play with. Just for example.
In those situations where you are base locked, a couple of ARCs can really save your ass. Wipe out the healing and defensive structures, or the tunnel. and it can give your team a valuable opportunity to push back and take some territory.
It allows me to attack multiple locations, i can have my main force occupying the aliens while my autonomous units, backed up by a couple of players + macs can attack another.
But i suppose the response will be 'bah, pithy pub play'
With the unit cap the ARC gets even more OP as aliens can not stack defensive structures like before, whips, crags etc.
Maybe a limit of online arcs discussion is revived?
With the unit cap the ARC gets even more OP as aliens can not stack defensive structures like before, whips, crags etc.
Maybe a limit of online arcs discussion is revived?
No. You do not defeat Arcs with crags or whips.
He's used to ye olde broken ass alien days where you actually could delay arcs heavily with crag and whip spam
but yes, the counter is to clear the marines and bile the fuck out of them.
seen many pub games where the marines end up controlling the map but lack the skills as a team to break the aliens remaining hive due toa couple of onos and gorges, losing exos everywhere. The marines would eventually triumph but the arcs are a shortcut to ending the match.
generally aliens are much better at stopping a marine base defense imo, especially with spores.
Whips have bile bomb... For 11 res you can Eco a bule bombing whip anywhere on the map... Get a cyst to build unnoticed just outside range of an obs, and boom...
Do aliens need whips with bile bomb ?
The question isn't about need its about want! And yes I want arcs and I want whips...
I thought whips sucked as siege weapons until a sneaky khamm echo'd 2 whips in view of one of my expansion bases and totally smashed the PG before anyone could respond. The same khamm spammed 4 whips in 1 large room, watching an Exo get insta-gibbed was jaw-dropping.
As a marine comm, I find arcs critical for mid-game pushes. When fades stop marines from being able to push out, ARCs are the only thing that help provide pressure. If not for them, marines can only turtle till they tech up enough to push exos out to take on the fades.
I thought whips sucked as siege weapons until a sneaky khamm echo'd 2 whips in view of one of my expansion bases and totally smashed the PG before anyone could respond. The same khamm spammed 4 whips in 1 large room, watching an Exo get insta-gibbed was jaw-dropping.
As a marine comm, I find arcs critical for mid-game pushes. When fades stop marines from being able to push out, ARCs are the only thing that help provide pressure. If not for them, marines can only turtle till they tech up enough to push exos out to take on the fades.
The best part of kammanding is late game, when your team keeps hitting the same marine base, while you sneak a shade just outside the other fine base and cyst in...
Watching your echod whips win a game is so satisfying...
Fav win so far was a rine 2 base turtle where their main was flight and their backup was sub... Got a tunnel from DC to the back corner of sub as a phantom gorge (obs was near power node). Then shifted 4 whips to the tunnel infestation.... Boom goes chair and pg...
With the unit cap the ARC gets even more OP as aliens can not stack defensive structures like before, whips, crags etc.
Maybe a limit of online arcs discussion is revived?
No. You do not defeat Arcs with crags or whips.
Arcs defeat crags and whips, rather than the other way around. Thing is, with the removal of grenade slap and the flamethrowers disabling building and the lack of stacked crags, flamethrowers and grenades ALSO beat crags and whips (and hydras), making arcs redundant. Arcs are only good for when your team is too BAD to use mixed arms effectively, in which case the alien team probably deserves to be winning.
ARCs are probably a relict from the times where Crags where actually able to heal a decent amount of damage and allowed aliens to actually have a durability advantage in their base. You kinda needed ARCs to break through some stacked Crag turtles.
But ever since Crags don't stack anymore, got their healing amount nerfed into oblivion, cost 15 population units (Shade and Shift only cost 10 while being a lot more helpful), are disabled by Flamethrowers and can't be protected by Whips against Grenade Launcher spam, there really is no reason anymore to set up an expensive siege instead of having your marines clear out the Hive, other than for the lulz. Plus Shade Ink actually works against ARC targeting now, so there is even less reason to use them. And since the population limit nerfed alien base defenses into oblivion as well, there is even less of a turtle issue now.
The population limit costs are also way off on alien side compared to the marines. Marines will barely ever run into population cap troubles whereas aliens barely have enough to plant one of each chamber at three Hives. There was a time in BT where the cap actually depended on the number of controlled tech points (100 per TP), rather than having a flat 200 from the start. It also gave marines a reason to actually capture a second CC.
All in all do I miss the old times where aliens could actually have a base that was worth sieging.
Yeah, no wonder the Arc train is less seen these days or it is out at odd times (ie. when I don't think it is warranted). Makes sense now that Crags heal so so so slow, the need for them is much less to break a siege.
@sotanaht
I see what you mean about the Arc being redundant (function filled by other weapons in the Marine arsenal). But, I still like them as an option as it does force Kharaa engagement. When the Arc trains comes, the Kharaa must DO something (force a beacon, go all hard on the train...) because if the train gets established, the hive location is pretty much gonski. It is a very large tRes investment don't forget, at the early-mid game stage, that is tRes that could be spent on upgrades. In the late game, if you let the other team get so many arcs, it probably means the game is over for the Kharaa (just not by a direct assault on the hive).
I think arcs would be a lot more viable if bile wasn't research-able in the first 5 min on a single hive.
joshhh.... c'mon.. please. What do you think would happen every game if that were possible? Pretty sure viability isn't the issue here, but fact is, the only way to deploy arcs effectively is to solicit teamwork from your marines and the only way they can be countered by aliens is for the alien team to work together. In that regard, Arcs bring a lot to NS2.
If marines are able to get the jump on your team with ARCs they deserve the initiative. Aliens should make some effort to recon marine base and figure out what's going on.
He's used to ye olde broken ass alien days where you actually could delay arcs heavily with crag and whip spam
Yeah, it's funny. I always thought that was broken ass too but reading through this thread you'd think it was something people want to bring back. I suppose it did make for prolonged tense moments.
Arcs defeat crags and whips, rather than the other way around. Thing is, with the removal of grenade slap and the flamethrowers disabling building and the lack of stacked crags, flamethrowers and grenades ALSO beat crags and whips (and hydras), making arcs redundant. Arcs are only good for when your team is too BAD to use mixed arms effectively, in which case the alien team probably deserves to be winning.
Grenade whack made GL completely ineffective as a weapon, glad to see it gone although it seemed like a novel and distinctive feature back in the day. b250 has reduced the need for massive arc trains yet arcs are still useful. Subtle difference. 2 arcs make an effective and elegant force to be reckoned with and I can't see a need for more than 3, which is an excellent outcome from a design point of view. I disagree with your idea that arcs are only needed to compensate for bad use of mixed arms. Arcs are an optional tool which brings diversity to gameplay.
I think arcs would be a lot more viable if bile wasn't research-able in the first 5 min on a single hive.
joshhh.... c'mon.. please. What do you think would happen every game if that were possible? Pretty sure viability isn't the issue here, but fact is, the only way to deploy arcs effectively is to solicit teamwork from your marines and the only way they can be countered by aliens is for the alien team to work together. In that regard, Arcs bring a lot to NS2.
If marines are able to get the jump on your team with ARCs they deserve the initiative. Aliens should make some effort to recon marine base and figure out what's going on.
He's used to ye olde broken ass alien days where you actually could delay arcs heavily with crag and whip spam
Yeah, it's funny. I always thought that was broken ass too but reading through this thread you'd think it was something people want to bring back. I suppose it did make for prolonged tense moments.
I dont consider building a train of arcs in a secure base really getting the jump on aliens.
In NS sieges actually had to be built in a disputed area...to build sieges actually did require getting the drop on your opponent...and building the factory and sieges in the battlefield.
With arcs being mobile they are too easily built in a safe area then rolled out once multiple are built.
The deployment time does not even come close to the old build times.
Arcs are an issue...I have been an advocate of them actually requiring LOS...after all they are mobile now so the wallhacking is not really needed as it was in NS.
I dont consider building a train of arcs in a secure base really getting the jump on aliens.
In NS sieges actually had to be built in a disputed area...to build sieges actually did require getting the drop on your opponent...and building the factory and sieges in the battlefield.
With arcs being mobile they are too easily built in a safe area then rolled out once multiple are built.
The deployment time does not even come close to the old build times.
a) Ghost is a great commander and I'm sure he understood what I was getting at. For your reference, teams that focus on getting kill to the exclusion of RTS concepts like intel are playing with a handicap. That's a good thing. Whether aliens have all the right tools for intel work is another matter (re: drifters & parasite).
b) Since b250, I often see commanders building the robofac at a forward base, if not at the siege location anyway. That's probably because arcs move so slowly now combined with the way they are vulnerable in transit.
c) Siege turrets are mobile now. Come to peace with it.
Arcs are an issue...I have been an advocate of them actually requiring LOS...after all they are mobile now so the wallhacking is not really needed as it was in NS.
I dont consider building a train of arcs in a secure base really getting the jump on aliens.
In NS sieges actually had to be built in a disputed area...to build sieges actually did require getting the drop on your opponent...and building the factory and sieges in the battlefield.
With arcs being mobile they are too easily built in a safe area then rolled out once multiple are built.
The deployment time does not even come close to the old build times.
a) Ghost is a great commander and I'm sure he understood what I was getting at. For your reference, teams that focus on getting kill to the exclusion of RTS concepts like intel are playing with a handicap. That's a good thing. Whether aliens have all the right tools for intel work is another matter (re: drifters & parasite).
b) Since b250, I often see commanders building the robofac at a forward base, if not at the siege location anyway. That's probably because arcs move so slowly now combined with the way they are vulnerable in transit.
c) Siege turrets are mobile now. Come to peace with it.
Arcs are an issue...I have been an advocate of them actually requiring LOS...after all they are mobile now so the wallhacking is not really needed as it was in NS.
Now you're being ridiculous.
Oh sorry that forward base your referring to...would that be a disputed area...or an area where its safe to have atleast a PG, Armoury, turrets etc?
The level of risk in trying to set up a siege base was infinitely more difficult in that you had to be in siege range, compare that to finding a secure spot "near" where you want to attack (but in a friendly controlled area) where you can safely build that robo and multiple arcs with out needing to be within spitting/arcing distance of your target.
How is being an advocate of arcs needing LOS to shoot ridiculous?
I am not the only person who shares this view, it would actually make sense...would add an element of risk for marines to arc an area.
I mean now that FT disable things, whips dont throw back grenades...exactly what are the marines worried about heading into the room for?
ARCs are probably a relict from the times where Crags where actually able to heal a decent amount of damage and allowed aliens to actually have a durability advantage in their base. You kinda needed ARCs to break through some stacked Crag turtles.
But ever since Crags don't stack anymore, got their healing amount nerfed into oblivion, cost 15 population units (Shade and Shift only cost 10 while being a lot more helpful), are disabled by Flamethrowers and can't be protected by Whips against Grenade Launcher spam, there really is no reason anymore to set up an expensive siege instead of having your marines clear out the Hive, other than for the lulz. Plus Shade Ink actually works against ARC targeting now, so there is even less reason to use them. And since the population limit nerfed alien base defenses into oblivion as well, there is even less of a turtle issue now.
The population limit costs are also way off on alien side compared to the marines. Marines will barely ever run into population cap troubles whereas aliens barely have enough to plant one of each chamber at three Hives. There was a time in BT where the cap actually depended on the number of controlled tech points (100 per TP), rather than having a flat 200 from the start. It also gave marines a reason to actually capture a second CC.
All in all do I miss the old times where aliens could actually have a base that was worth sieging.
I ALWAYS WHINGED ABOUT CAPS (irony of writing this in caps noted), ever since drifters, those poor bouncy little creatures, got their first cap.
AND LOOK AT US NOW, crag CAP supply CAP mac CAP mac repair CAP and most importantly, FUN CAP.
You capped fun. You dun goofed.
Okay I'm exaggerating, but still - caps should always be a last resort.
@hackenspit
I'm saying the differences between NS1 and NS2 are not as extreme as you're saying. What you're saying sounds like "NS2 is not exactly the same as NS1 yet, this is an outrage!".
As for changing arcs, out of nowhere you've come up with this idea about using LOS and then you justify that by coyly implying arcs are OP. They're not, and if they were there would be plenty of less radial ways to adjust them. I don't have a problem with people coming up with radical changes to NS2 but that's what the I&S forum is for. You haven't explained what other variables about arcs would need to be changed, such as range, speed, speed over infestation, deployment time(if any). So I'm left to assume the only thing you would change is that they require LOS. The most ridiculous thing about that idea would be how exposed they would be to bile bomb.
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edited July 2013
Counter-Question: Do Aliens really need whips ?
Both units can give a great advance to your team if they are used right. Both open new ways to win a game. And both are not Op because you can counter them easily. Arcs = Gorge Bile Bomb, Whips = Advanced Weapons
I dont consider building a train of arcs in a secure base really getting the jump on aliens.
In NS sieges actually had to be built in a disputed area...to build sieges actually did require getting the drop on your opponent...and building the factory and sieges in the battlefield.
With arcs being mobile they are too easily built in a safe area then rolled out once multiple are built.
The deployment time does not even come close to the old build times.
a) Ghost is a great commander and I'm sure he understood what I was getting at. For your reference, teams that focus on getting kill to the exclusion of RTS concepts like intel are playing with a handicap. That's a good thing. Whether aliens have all the right tools for intel work is another matter (re: drifters & parasite).
b) Since b250, I often see commanders building the robofac at a forward base, if not at the siege location anyway. That's probably because arcs move so slowly now combined with the way they are vulnerable in transit.
c) Siege turrets are mobile now. Come to peace with it.
Arcs are an issue...I have been an advocate of them actually requiring LOS...after all they are mobile now so the wallhacking is not really needed as it was in NS.
Now you're being ridiculous.
Oh sorry that forward base your referring to...would that be a disputed area...or an area where its safe to have atleast a PG, Armoury, turrets etc?
The level of risk in trying to set up a siege base was infinitely more difficult in that you had to be in siege range, compare that to finding a secure spot "near" where you want to attack (but in a friendly controlled area) where you can safely build that robo and multiple arcs with out needing to be within spitting/arcing distance of your target.
How is being an advocate of arcs needing LOS to shoot ridiculous?
I am not the only person who shares this view, it would actually make sense...would add an element of risk for marines to arc an area.
I mean now that FT disable things, whips dont throw back grenades...exactly what are the marines worried about heading into the room for?
While I'll agree that there is nothing in NS2 that comes close to the excitement/tension of setting up a siege base in NS1, I do not think that requiring ARCs to have LOS is remotely necessary. In fact it is almost counter-intuitive to require a siege unit to be in LOS; it almost defeats the purpose. I would rather see ARCs return to their role as defined in NS1 (Immobile, built onsite near a factory). It would also add an additional use for sentries. Additionally, as illustrated in this thread, with the changes to Crag healing, GLs, and FTs, ARCs do feel slightly redundant. I'm not sure how to change this, perhaps by allowing Crags to heal structures more than lifeforms. This way a unit of mixed weaponry could do the job, but the ARCs could do it faster.
I'd just suggest one or two anti-ARC tactics to those complaining that they are a nigh invincible weapon. They do need LOS insofar that ether a marine has to be actively shooting the target or the commander has to be pinging (which, for a sustained attack can be quite expensive in terms of tres)
If you have players suicidal or good enough to take out their sensor arrays its a very simple (if risky) countermeasure against the ARCs being able to target your structures. and usually the confusion is enough to be able to repel the marine attack.
Not to mention that a lot of commander's first instinct when their base is attacked is to beacon.
Their range seems to fluctuate a lot between releases, a few months ago the range was almost cripplingly short, now it's surprisingly long.
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I just imagined this:
Commander drops a siege turret at the robotics factory. The player picks it up and straps it to his back (taking up the jetpack slot) the thing's heavy, so it slows the player down (also no sprint?). Then the player walks/phases to their destination and drops the turret (like in Last Stand) at a sentry battery in the desired location, where it then deploys. Afterward, the commander can disassemble the turret and and it can be picked up again.
Like I said, I just imagined it while I was reading the above posts, I didn't think it through yet nor am I saying this needs to be how the game works. Just a stream of consciousness thing regarding how siege turrets could work. So... what would this mean?
- Players are responsible for transporting the siege turret (goodbye to that specific commander micro), but the commander provides the target location with a sentry battery.
- It requires players who do not have EXO/JP to transport the turrets, limiting how many can be quickly deployed in small games once all those techs are out.
- One player could be reponsible for transporting multiple turrets at the cost of time as they (more slowly than usual) walk back and forth between robo fatory and target - phase placement could be pretty vital in that regard.
I'm running out of thinking energy in my brain here, so feel free to further analyse/criticise, if only for lols.
Again, not advocating that this is how it should be, don't burn me down. Just a morphine-induced brainspazz (yay hospital). :P
@hackenspit
I'm saying the differences between NS1 and NS2 are not as extreme as you're saying. What you're saying sounds like "NS2 is not exactly the same as NS1 yet, this is an outrage!".
As for changing arcs, out of nowhere you've come up with this idea about using LOS and then you justify that by coyly implying arcs are OP. They're not, and if they were there would be plenty of less radial ways to adjust them. I don't have a problem with people coming up with radical changes to NS2 but that's what the I&S forum is for. You haven't explained what other variables about arcs would need to be changed, such as range, speed, speed over infestation, deployment time(if any). So I'm left to assume the only thing you would change is that they require LOS. The most ridiculous thing about that idea would be how exposed they would be to bile bomb.
@khyron Its not an idea out of nowhere...its actually one that others have also upt up over the course of the beta.
In the time before exo's when arc trains where the main way marines won.
Arcs should not be mobile or if they are they should require direct LOS...force them to actually go into a room and not sit back in a hallway somewhere.
Given the nerf of alien defenses (along with FT disabling everything) there would actually be little risk for marines...but it would make more sense as to why they are mobile.
Arcs are here to replace the siege cannon they had in NS1, however I can't imagine why they made them mobile. What I can’t understand is why they increased the range of arcs (it used to be they could only hit 1 RT in nanogrid but now they can hit both) as well as adding the exo another siege type weapon and constantly decreasing the bilebomb for the gorge.
In response to the original question, No, I don't think ARC's are needed in build 251. With the changes to alien defenses (particularly reduced crag healing rate) mixed weapon marines should have no trouble punching through an alien position. They're now a late game luxury when the match result is already known, and even then, they probably won't actually get an opportunity to be utilized.
I do a fair bit of marine Comm'ing and like to experiment with unusual strategies from time to time. pre build 250, there were a couple of high risk/reward ARC centered strategies which just aren't worth trying now. the risk is higher (slower moving arc's, fast access to bilebomb & cheap gorges at any stage of the game). the reward is technically the same, but it's not as difficult for a squad of marines to break through without that ARC support, so it's not worth delaying upgrades for them.
I don't think the solution is static siege turrets either. NS2 is somewhat faster than it's predecessor (from the little i remember of it) and long drawn out sieges, is in my opinion, too in favour of the aliens. It gives more time to react and either assault the threat directly or draw the marines away (beacon) and leave the turret isolated. With the aliens current defenses, it'd also be mostly unnecessary as those marines defending the tower could probably push in and clear it out without it. It could also annoy alien players when these siege turrets pop up out of nowhere in under a minute, part of the beauty of ARC's is that aliens get ample time to locate and deal with them.
I do think having unit caps is good for the game, but the flat unit cap as it is now doesn't work.
I've never had trouble staying under the cap as a marine commander, as placing armories (do they even count?) and sentries in every room just isn't needed. the other main expenses are MAC's and ARC's and as discussed above, you don't need ARC's (and 2-3 would suffice for any attack).
Similarly, i've never had a problem staying under the limit as aliens either, but i can see how easy it is to do so, given that you can't recycle structures. you could have structures lying around from old front lines and need to move them (echo). you can work around the cap, but it may be a little low for the aliens.
I'd think a cap of 125 per CC/Hive should be looked at, with a maximum of 250 (2 hives/cc)
I think this would add incentive for marines to secure a 2nd CC and a substantial buff to total capacity. Aliens would benefit from the increased capacity for defences or drifters to support attacks.
Like many others, I don't think Crags are in a good place at the moment, the rate of healing is too low so slows aliens from getting back in the fight and makes ARC attacks potentially too strong, it's purely up to the player lifeforms and the commanders structures will hardly buy any extra time to dispose of the threat. If crags get a buff to structure healing, or heal stacking returned (albeit adjusted, it could be ridiculous sometimes pre 250) then ARC's may see a comeback.
I actually think most of the problems people had with ARC's have been solved now, ARC's are no longer the powerhouses they used to be due to limited numbers, slower travel speed and earlier access to bilebomb. They're not as devastating as they were but you still need to have a plan in place when they start rolling to your base, or your in trouble. Adjustments now need to happen to other areas of the game to make them a viable strategy again
Comments
Pretty much that! As I have noted, they are rarely used in Comp. play because the tRes can be better spent on other things. As Therius has pointed out, it is a more defensive strategy (and for teams that just can't seem to get their **** together). An offensive marine team might go all out and assault a hive location with everything they got (JP, exo and kitchen sink), but they risk a base trade or losing their gear. But a more defensive team might go the Arc train and hang back. It is slower - to get there, but no less valid for a hive take down.
It gives an advantage to a team that is being clearly outplayed. I don't want to say arcs are OP because by themselves they certainly aren't, but they seem designed to give the worse team a win which sounds like a bad design to me.
But ever since Crags don't stack anymore, got their healing amount nerfed into oblivion, cost 15 population units (Shade and Shift only cost 10 while being a lot more helpful), are disabled by Flamethrowers and can't be protected by Whips against Grenade Launcher spam, there really is no reason anymore to set up an expensive siege instead of having your marines clear out the Hive, other than for the lulz. Plus Shade Ink actually works against ARC targeting now, so there is even less reason to use them. And since the population limit nerfed alien base defenses into oblivion as well, there is even less of a turtle issue now.
The population limit costs are also way off on alien side compared to the marines. Marines will barely ever run into population cap troubles whereas aliens barely have enough to plant one of each chamber at three Hives. There was a time in BT where the cap actually depended on the number of controlled tech points (100 per TP), rather than having a flat 200 from the start. It also gave marines a reason to actually capture a second CC.
All in all do I miss the old times where aliens could actually have a base that was worth sieging.
In those situations where you are base locked, a couple of ARCs can really save your ass. Wipe out the healing and defensive structures, or the tunnel. and it can give your team a valuable opportunity to push back and take some territory.
It allows me to attack multiple locations, i can have my main force occupying the aliens while my autonomous units, backed up by a couple of players + macs can attack another.
But i suppose the response will be 'bah, pithy pub play'
Two words for you:
Red Room.
:-SS
He's used to ye olde broken ass alien days where you actually could delay arcs heavily with crag and whip spam
but yes, the counter is to clear the marines and bile the fuck out of them.
generally aliens are much better at stopping a marine base defense imo, especially with spores.
Do aliens need whips with bile bomb ?
The question isn't about need its about want! And yes I want arcs and I want whips...
As a marine comm, I find arcs critical for mid-game pushes. When fades stop marines from being able to push out, ARCs are the only thing that help provide pressure. If not for them, marines can only turtle till they tech up enough to push exos out to take on the fades.
well shotguns and armor 2 is enough to kill fades
Watching your echod whips win a game is so satisfying...
Arcs defeat crags and whips, rather than the other way around. Thing is, with the removal of grenade slap and the flamethrowers disabling building and the lack of stacked crags, flamethrowers and grenades ALSO beat crags and whips (and hydras), making arcs redundant. Arcs are only good for when your team is too BAD to use mixed arms effectively, in which case the alien team probably deserves to be winning.
Yeah, no wonder the Arc train is less seen these days or it is out at odd times (ie. when I don't think it is warranted). Makes sense now that Crags heal so so so slow, the need for them is much less to break a siege.
@sotanaht
I see what you mean about the Arc being redundant (function filled by other weapons in the Marine arsenal). But, I still like them as an option as it does force Kharaa engagement. When the Arc trains comes, the Kharaa must DO something (force a beacon, go all hard on the train...) because if the train gets established, the hive location is pretty much gonski. It is a very large tRes investment don't forget, at the early-mid game stage, that is tRes that could be spent on upgrades. In the late game, if you let the other team get so many arcs, it probably means the game is over for the Kharaa (just not by a direct assault on the hive).
If marines are able to get the jump on your team with ARCs they deserve the initiative. Aliens should make some effort to recon marine base and figure out what's going on.
Yeah, it's funny. I always thought that was broken ass too but reading through this thread you'd think it was something people want to bring back. I suppose it did make for prolonged tense moments.
Grenade whack made GL completely ineffective as a weapon, glad to see it gone although it seemed like a novel and distinctive feature back in the day. b250 has reduced the need for massive arc trains yet arcs are still useful. Subtle difference. 2 arcs make an effective and elegant force to be reckoned with and I can't see a need for more than 3, which is an excellent outcome from a design point of view. I disagree with your idea that arcs are only needed to compensate for bad use of mixed arms. Arcs are an optional tool which brings diversity to gameplay.
I dont consider building a train of arcs in a secure base really getting the jump on aliens.
In NS sieges actually had to be built in a disputed area...to build sieges actually did require getting the drop on your opponent...and building the factory and sieges in the battlefield.
With arcs being mobile they are too easily built in a safe area then rolled out once multiple are built.
The deployment time does not even come close to the old build times.
Arcs are an issue...I have been an advocate of them actually requiring LOS...after all they are mobile now so the wallhacking is not really needed as it was in NS.
b) Since b250, I often see commanders building the robofac at a forward base, if not at the siege location anyway. That's probably because arcs move so slowly now combined with the way they are vulnerable in transit.
c) Siege turrets are mobile now. Come to peace with it.
Now you're being ridiculous.
Oh sorry that forward base your referring to...would that be a disputed area...or an area where its safe to have atleast a PG, Armoury, turrets etc?
The level of risk in trying to set up a siege base was infinitely more difficult in that you had to be in siege range, compare that to finding a secure spot "near" where you want to attack (but in a friendly controlled area) where you can safely build that robo and multiple arcs with out needing to be within spitting/arcing distance of your target.
How is being an advocate of arcs needing LOS to shoot ridiculous?
I am not the only person who shares this view, it would actually make sense...would add an element of risk for marines to arc an area.
I mean now that FT disable things, whips dont throw back grenades...exactly what are the marines worried about heading into the room for?
I ALWAYS WHINGED ABOUT CAPS (irony of writing this in caps noted), ever since drifters, those poor bouncy little creatures, got their first cap.
AND LOOK AT US NOW, crag CAP supply CAP mac CAP mac repair CAP and most importantly, FUN CAP.
You capped fun. You dun goofed.
Okay I'm exaggerating, but still - caps should always be a last resort.
I'm saying the differences between NS1 and NS2 are not as extreme as you're saying. What you're saying sounds like "NS2 is not exactly the same as NS1 yet, this is an outrage!".
As for changing arcs, out of nowhere you've come up with this idea about using LOS and then you justify that by coyly implying arcs are OP. They're not, and if they were there would be plenty of less radial ways to adjust them. I don't have a problem with people coming up with radical changes to NS2 but that's what the I&S forum is for. You haven't explained what other variables about arcs would need to be changed, such as range, speed, speed over infestation, deployment time(if any). So I'm left to assume the only thing you would change is that they require LOS. The most ridiculous thing about that idea would be how exposed they would be to bile bomb.
Both units can give a great advance to your team if they are used right. Both open new ways to win a game. And both are not Op because you can counter them easily. Arcs = Gorge Bile Bomb, Whips = Advanced Weapons
While I'll agree that there is nothing in NS2 that comes close to the excitement/tension of setting up a siege base in NS1, I do not think that requiring ARCs to have LOS is remotely necessary. In fact it is almost counter-intuitive to require a siege unit to be in LOS; it almost defeats the purpose. I would rather see ARCs return to their role as defined in NS1 (Immobile, built onsite near a factory). It would also add an additional use for sentries. Additionally, as illustrated in this thread, with the changes to Crag healing, GLs, and FTs, ARCs do feel slightly redundant. I'm not sure how to change this, perhaps by allowing Crags to heal structures more than lifeforms. This way a unit of mixed weaponry could do the job, but the ARCs could do it faster.
If you have players suicidal or good enough to take out their sensor arrays its a very simple (if risky) countermeasure against the ARCs being able to target your structures. and usually the confusion is enough to be able to repel the marine attack.
Not to mention that a lot of commander's first instinct when their base is attacked is to beacon.
Their range seems to fluctuate a lot between releases, a few months ago the range was almost cripplingly short, now it's surprisingly long.
Commander drops a siege turret at the robotics factory. The player picks it up and straps it to his back (taking up the jetpack slot) the thing's heavy, so it slows the player down (also no sprint?). Then the player walks/phases to their destination and drops the turret (like in Last Stand) at a sentry battery in the desired location, where it then deploys. Afterward, the commander can disassemble the turret and and it can be picked up again.
Like I said, I just imagined it while I was reading the above posts, I didn't think it through yet nor am I saying this needs to be how the game works. Just a stream of consciousness thing regarding how siege turrets could work. So... what would this mean?
- Players are responsible for transporting the siege turret (goodbye to that specific commander micro), but the commander provides the target location with a sentry battery.
- It requires players who do not have EXO/JP to transport the turrets, limiting how many can be quickly deployed in small games once all those techs are out.
- One player could be reponsible for transporting multiple turrets at the cost of time as they (more slowly than usual) walk back and forth between robo fatory and target - phase placement could be pretty vital in that regard.
I'm running out of thinking energy in my brain here, so feel free to further analyse/criticise, if only for lols.
Again, not advocating that this is how it should be, don't burn me down. Just a morphine-induced brainspazz (yay hospital). :P
@khyron Its not an idea out of nowhere...its actually one that others have also upt up over the course of the beta.
In the time before exo's when arc trains where the main way marines won.
Arcs should not be mobile or if they are they should require direct LOS...force them to actually go into a room and not sit back in a hallway somewhere.
Given the nerf of alien defenses (along with FT disabling everything) there would actually be little risk for marines...but it would make more sense as to why they are mobile.
I do a fair bit of marine Comm'ing and like to experiment with unusual strategies from time to time. pre build 250, there were a couple of high risk/reward ARC centered strategies which just aren't worth trying now. the risk is higher (slower moving arc's, fast access to bilebomb & cheap gorges at any stage of the game). the reward is technically the same, but it's not as difficult for a squad of marines to break through without that ARC support, so it's not worth delaying upgrades for them.
I don't think the solution is static siege turrets either. NS2 is somewhat faster than it's predecessor (from the little i remember of it) and long drawn out sieges, is in my opinion, too in favour of the aliens. It gives more time to react and either assault the threat directly or draw the marines away (beacon) and leave the turret isolated. With the aliens current defenses, it'd also be mostly unnecessary as those marines defending the tower could probably push in and clear it out without it. It could also annoy alien players when these siege turrets pop up out of nowhere in under a minute, part of the beauty of ARC's is that aliens get ample time to locate and deal with them.
I do think having unit caps is good for the game, but the flat unit cap as it is now doesn't work.
I've never had trouble staying under the cap as a marine commander, as placing armories (do they even count?) and sentries in every room just isn't needed. the other main expenses are MAC's and ARC's and as discussed above, you don't need ARC's (and 2-3 would suffice for any attack).
Similarly, i've never had a problem staying under the limit as aliens either, but i can see how easy it is to do so, given that you can't recycle structures. you could have structures lying around from old front lines and need to move them (echo). you can work around the cap, but it may be a little low for the aliens.
I'd think a cap of 125 per CC/Hive should be looked at, with a maximum of 250 (2 hives/cc)
I think this would add incentive for marines to secure a 2nd CC and a substantial buff to total capacity. Aliens would benefit from the increased capacity for defences or drifters to support attacks.
Like many others, I don't think Crags are in a good place at the moment, the rate of healing is too low so slows aliens from getting back in the fight and makes ARC attacks potentially too strong, it's purely up to the player lifeforms and the commanders structures will hardly buy any extra time to dispose of the threat. If crags get a buff to structure healing, or heal stacking returned (albeit adjusted, it could be ridiculous sometimes pre 250) then ARC's may see a comeback.
I actually think most of the problems people had with ARC's have been solved now, ARC's are no longer the powerhouses they used to be due to limited numbers, slower travel speed and earlier access to bilebomb. They're not as devastating as they were but you still need to have a plan in place when they start rolling to your base, or your in trouble. Adjustments now need to happen to other areas of the game to make them a viable strategy again