SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
i think if it boosted t.res then RFK would be quite useless. what pres reward does, potentially, i tried to describe here: writeup. probably im flawled in my thinking so correct me please
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
As you've noted in your document, the (my) main point of concern with RFK is its compounding effect. The potential reward from RFK encourages hero play and in turn, compounds the impact a 'hero' has on the direction of a game. While hero play isn't a problem in and of itself, rewarding it redefines the metagame. Instead of the focus being on territory and resource control, it turns towards establishing meat-grinders. e.g. leaving that phase, ip or hive up that little bit longer in order to get a few more kills. In turn, expansion becomes a more cautious affair - if you over-extend you'll just die needlessly.
That said, if/when that doesn't lead to camping and tutling, RFK has the potential to provide a quite tense, engaging play experience. Periods of cautious stalking and expansion, punctuated by short, intense massacres.
Personally, if I was forced to implement a RF_ system, I'd choose RFP (res for points); with points from NPC activity going to tres. Unlike RFK, a RFP system doesn't ignore support roles and offers commanders alternate sources of income.
JektJoin Date: 2012-02-05Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
edited July 2013
While I'm all for the removal of tres drops. What then does the alien commander spend anything on after the rounds opening. Or either commander in an end game turtle break situation, more so on the alien side. I think the 3rd hive abilities need to be much more devastating before this change, less lose 3 onos in an uncoordinated final public push and prolong the game. Suggestions. Buff xeno and make vortex work against arms lab.
Really, I would like to see starting tres dropped and upgrade chambers becoming more costly. I would like to see the 3 levels of upgrade chambers play a larger role throughout the game rather than just the starting minutes. Sniping 1 or 2 out of 3 chambers should be a bigger deal and variation in upgrade level more apparent and meaningful.
There are a lot of things from the beta that should be reevaluated I think. All that time spent on attempting to balance a feature incomplete game didn't make any sense to me.
I don't think RFK will be enough by its self. Using a balanced 6v6 for example. There might be 1 carry player that gets ~5 more kills than everyone else before the current 8 minute fadesplosion mark. Everyone on the marine team is probably wielding a shotgun by this time with at least enough pres for another rebuy, likely 2. It seems unlikely to me that such a brief solo fade would risk the engagement and not just play very safe until 4 other fades are up.
GhoulofGSG9Join Date: 2013-03-31Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts
edited July 2013
My main point of concern with RFK is that it will make teamplay at public server terrible as hell. Why should a "good player" now save rts/ harvester or work with his teammates if he can farm res much faster with killfarming? This will let to following situation: The "Good player" is able to become even faster a fade at a "normal" public server and after that point he will become mostly unstopable. If this change gets into vanilla i think that it will be become even harder for rookies to get used to the game or we need a elo based matchmaking system to ensure that teams are even.
That is a very compelling writeup, but there are still a lot of problems with rfk.
How is rfk supposed to enable comebacks when a winning team has the advantage, and will use their advantage to gain an even greater advantage in terms of kills and therefore res? Rather than enable comebacks, it seems like an equal distribution of rfk will just make the inevitable defeat of team who lost the early game even more decisive. It also brings into question, what is the worth of a lost skulk vs. a lost marine? Are they equal? Should they have the same reward?
You can increase comebacks by increasing the cost of deaths for the winning team. You can do this in pretty much any way, respawn times, res lost, or even rfk. Just make sure that while the the winning team has the advantage, a few kills or a wipe will allow the enemy enough of an advantage to swing things back towards the middle.
However that still doesnt address the issue of good players stomping pubs EVEN harder than they already can. IMO that should be the first issue UWE needs to fix.
That is a very compelling writeup, but there are still a lot of problems with rfk.
How is rfk supposed to enable comebacks when a winning team has the advantage, and will use their advantage to gain an even greater advantage in terms of kills and therefore res? Rather than enable comebacks, it seems like an equal distribution of rfk will just make the inevitable defeat of team who lost the early game even more decisive. It also brings into question, what is the worth of a lost skulk vs. a lost marine? Are they equal? Should they have the same reward?
You can increase comebacks by increasing the cost of deaths for the winning team. You can do this in pretty much any way, respawn times, res lost, or even rfk. Just make sure that while the the winning team has the advantage, a few kills or a wipe will allow the enemy enough of an advantage to swing things back towards the middle.
However that still doesnt address the issue of good players stomping pubs EVEN harder than they already can. IMO that should be the first issue UWE needs to fix.
Oh comeback won't be a problem with rfk, just image some marines turteling with gls
So why res for kills instead of res for points? People have been confused about points since the very first moment "+1" started appearing in the game. Tying res to them(on a 10:1 scale or something) has all the same benefits of RFK, but also provides a real incentive(as opposed to an imaginary one) for support roles and other thankless tasks. There are also potential future improvements, like giving partial point rewards when an alien dies based on damage dealt. For clarity you can change the yellow number to show the res value instead of the points, i.e. "+0.1".
MouseThe Lighter Side of PessimismJoin Date: 2002-03-02Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
edited July 2013
I'd love it if within a RFP system it would be possible to go early gorge, run about building all the nodes and other structures, healing as needed and ultimately have enough pres to be able to go fade before everyone else.
I'd love it if within a RFP system it would be possible to go early gorge, run about building all the nodes and other structures, healing as needed and ultimately have enough pres to be able to go fade before everyone else.
if you got res for points you'd get res for spending res on structures
Only if you take the time to build them youself. Remove points given when placing a building.
Ok just my final two cents:
If we really need a RF-System there should be a RFP-System:
- Every 10 points gained give 1 pres
- Buildings (as gorge) only give points when finished build.
- Babblers eggs (cost 1 res) should give 2 points (instead of 5)
- Optimal: Add assists like in NS2Stats to the game (giving some points for helping teammates)
-> This would reward overall players who work for their team (looking at scores on my server: best after 45 min ca. 400 points = 40 extra res = extra fade or 2 shotguns)
Edit: This would also improve Teamplay in general, give points finally a "real" meaning and even balance things some more (repairing base/healing gives 2 points, spiking 1 point, so you can get back into game by just supporting your team alot).
Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
edited July 2013
Personally, I would hate a RFK system, as outlined by others, it really rewards the elite players, so they can get more of what hurts the other team (earlier fade, afford weapons if they die...).
GhoulofGSG9's idea is pretty cool if you MUST implement a Res for something system, as it rewards general good play even as a support lifeform or builder. I also like adding the RFK/P to the tRes (you get more upgrades faster). Though as others have pointed out, any sort of RFK/P or what ever will increase the snowball effect, and lead to an even more one sided game.
Here is something I ll throw out there:
How about rewarding the losing team with a little more tRes. ie. if the Kills total between the two teams are very different, give a slight increase to tRes per tick for the losing team. It should be very subtle, but it will give the losing team a slight chance (for team related things such as upgrades). This might combat some what the team stacks where one team has 5 times more total kills, than the other (ie. losing team can't win engagements and consequently, can't hold territory). It will drag the game out (possibily), but might also give the losing side a chance to come back.
Will have to think about how to tweak the numbers so you can't abuse it, but my thinking is the increase is slight and scaled to the kill difference.
if you got res for points you'd get res for spending res on structures
Only if you take the time to build them youself. Remove points given when placing a building.
Commander could easily farm pres for his players then. Healing a freshly dropped Cyst as Gorge awards you 5 points. So with that conversion rate, I could easily translate 2 tres to 1 pres just by dropping Cysts in front of that players nose again and again.
I also don't like the idea of RFK. RFP sounds better, but what the flying fish said is also important: What if a marine com drops a second OBs in base, let one marine build it, recycle it, repeat?
Reading the document I also couldn't find the real cause for adding RFK. The problem of the fade-splosion isn't, that all players do it at the same time. The problem is, that it is effective to have so many fades on the field at the same time. A real solution should address this, not add a band-aid that brings a whole bunch of other problems with it. For example: Was it tried to really humiliate the ability of fades to do damage to buildings? Right now it is annoying to destroy a building as fade. But it should be nearly impossible. Decrease the damage to buildings by a HUGE amount and you will see that the fade-splosion isn't worth it anymore. At least, they can't be everywhere and a placed RT would last longer.
GhoulofGSG9Join Date: 2013-03-31Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts
edited July 2013
To fix exploiding : remove points from cyst build (and even 2:1 is more expensive than dropping a direct egg and hf building 120 cysts for onus XD) @_necro_ if com wants to waste tres and marines time ofc he could do that. (direct dropping is always cheaper and safes time ....)
Only thing that have to be remove are points for bubbler eggs!!!!
So by trying to trick the RFP system you only will foul yourself
I dont think 1 RFK has too much on an impact on the game and would like to see it tested. I think it's a lot more important to adress other ideas like the ones presented by F0rdPrefect on page 100.
I dont think 1 RFK has too much on an impact on the game and would like to see it tested. I think it's a lot more important to adress other ideas like the ones presented by F0rdPrefect on page 100.
Oh believe me it can be just had a 4 min fade in one testgame with friends.
The pro marine racking up skulk kills or the fade doing his thing are still going to get some extra res, but so is the gorge healing up or the skulk who just chewed down a res tower.
I stated in another thread my desire for RFK to resolve the "explosion" scenario we have now, as stated in your document, but I do think the "RFP" might be a worthwhile look.
Right now, pure RFK rewards skilled shooters and lifeforms. In some, not all, cases, players who are playing rambo and focusing on pure K:D may end up benefiting from RFK while not being much use to the team other than slaying lifeforms (not building at all, killing harvesters/Rts, etc). With RFP, every X points helps the team, and since building, welding, killing, and healspray etc adds to RFP, this is a great idea. With this, I'd LOVE to see the "Assist" points that NS2stats add into the main game. It promotes playing together.
I'm leary of the removal altogether of tres drops, just increase it maybe like the eggs for kharaa, making it painful? And I do believe initial pres or pres income will have to decrease to keep the lifeforms from showing up too early. With marines tech takes time. But with Kharaa currently, as soon as a player has the res, lifeforms are ready.
Also, if gorges get res from RFP, it would help the team if number 2 below was added (which I still think would be amazing). I just feel Kharaa are so stilted when it's encouraged not to run on the floor, but ALL structures barring hydras MUST be on the floor.
From my previous post in another thread, the things I suggested in addendum to RFK (now RFP):
1: Bring back RFK. 1 resource for every kill allows both "carry players" and staggers the lifeform/tech explosions. This means slower pres or lower start amount, but balances toward individual reward and less "explosion".
2: Once Khamm selects upgrade path, give gorges the responsibility to drop it.
- Kham can still drop Whips and larger structures (crags, shift, shade).
- Gorges drop all upgrade chambers (Spurs, Veils, Shells).
- These upgrade structures have a similar, but smaller area of effect than the full size counterparts. This welcomes more forward bases built and maintained by gorges.
- Allow ALL gorge placed structures on walls/roofs/vents, like hydras.
- Alien economy costs will need to be adjusted to compensate for gorge drops.
3: Gorges drop harvesters from pres for less than khamm using tres (similar to increased tres cost for lifeform eggs). This promotes better gorge play.
4: Keep Biomass, but integrate the ability upgrade into it. No need to upgrade Biomass, THEN the ability. Increase the cost, time, or both, and let one intuitive movement make sense to new players. Tunnels allowed on start. Want bile? Upgrade biomass for 25 res, 90 seconds.
5: In the same way Biomass increases hp/armor, allow it to scale DPS with each biomass increment. One hive, 2 biomass Bile is only, say, 60% of the 6 biomass bile. Allow DPS to increase as aliens tech to stop the difficult late game (on pubs).
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
edited July 2013
People that play this game love to ignore the fact that RFK changes play style for public and competitive in a positive direction, with or without feeding. Right now not caring about dying, at all, is silly. In 249 there was an incentive to stay alive to get resources faster, now if I'm across the map I'll support a teammate (as skulk) in some way where I simply want to die to get a fresh skulk, where as if there was a resource punishment for this I would likely go heal.
Players not managing their resource flow as part of individual play is foolish and changes the style of play you will see for all players of all experience levels.
Now I do feel that that fades should not die. If you let your fade die, that should be a major setback. Frankly if a fade dies I think it should be just about game, but that's not the case. There are 3-5 fades, and even if they all die at some point they are replaced by team res far before they could have gone fade themselves.
So I 100% support removing egg drops with or without RFK. Personally I would like to see RFK implemented with no egg drops and a reduced resource flow for pres and probably tres also. If this has to be balanced with removing JP/EXO drops, so be it. But you can't remove weapon drops, that would be foolish.
Marines should be at an advantage all the time without turrets that actually help (make those light damage btw?). Right now the only way to win on marine is to turtle and more than likely drop turrets on your gates. It should be the marines winning unless aliens are able to keep their fades up and doing damage and using great teamplay with other lifeforms.
In my opinion the game should play such that if you kill the fades, you win. But that should not be able to be your sole purpose.
What is making fade-killing such a focal point is not the fade itself, there's other factors such as gorge cost and 1-hive bile that make it so that even if marines deny a 2nd hive the aliens are still in position to win. The focus is no longer on the 2nd hive because it does not unlock the abilities, straight across the board, which allow the aliens to turn their defensive role to an offensive role. That being bile and umbra.
So, since the aliens are not forced to defend their second hive point, they can make decisions where they move to other parts of the map and attack phase gates etc that they WOULD NOT HAVE CHOSEN TO ATTACK, simply because they were able to sacrifice their second hive. This removes marine pressure teams and induces phase gate "turtles." (The NECESSITY of them, really, when playing better alien players)
Now, aliens are focusing on upgrades and dropping hives later, where the hives should be going down no sooner/later on average than fades are coming out, and the fades should be FORCED into a defensive role (This being meta-talk. Of course aliens can just have played well enough to get into an offensive position within 4 minutes) This works well with the current features because gorge tunnels in the 2nd hive, the hive, a dc, and gorge building are what should be keeping the fades healed and a relatively low-upgrade marines out of the hive. (Along with the fades. This is why sieges were so intense.) This is also a point where shotguns come out and the marines can choose between siege and attack.
So what can be done to push bile and umbra back to 2 hives without making early shotguns too overpowered? (Suggestions: 1. Projectile spores and a spike nerf, 2. Skulk speed increase, just some initial thoughts. Spores seriously hinder marine economy making low armor phase "turtles" as mentioned before less viable, skulk speed increase because we are sacrificing some alien map presence decision making ability by dictating their tempo more)
edit: I forgot to mention that these are major reasons for the length of current round times
Also I'd like to add that umbra should block bullets that pass through it again. Needing only to blink through it is crazy. It's also dumb that it protects aliens but allows bullets to pass through it.
People that play this game love to ignore the fact that RFK changes play style for public and competitive in a positive direction, with or without feeding. Right now not caring about dying, at all, is silly.
That is not true.
That's one less player on the field for a few seconds , possibly missing the most important engagement of the game.
That's why you often see in pcw skulks running away from rt while marine is approaching rather then bite it till death occurs or running away from engagements.
RFK is truly a bad idea as it's going to get the game even more frustrating and imbalanced ( if team A is better than B , team A will just roll over B even harder with RFK ).
RFP would be acceptable in some way I guess. This way you will find a reason to go gorge and help building stuff ...
What about you, errr, borrow an idea from dota? Killing multiple enemies rewards you with cool killingspree sounds and ending a killingspree gives bonus gold. You can obvioulsy ditch the sounds since they dont fit with NS2 very much IMHO but the bonus gold for killing those "elite" players would even out the playing field a bit.
If team A is better than team B, team A should steamroll team B and that is absolutly the case in NS2 RFK or not.
If team A is better than team B, team A should steamroll team B and that is absolutely the case in NS2 RFK or not.
In the case where team A is a bit better than team B, RFK makes it even harder for team B to pull a win out of the bag: close games will be more unlikely. What this game needs is a SHALLOWER slippery slope, not a steeper one than already exists.
If team A is better than team B, team A should steamroll team B and that is absolutely the case in NS2 RFK or not.
In the case where team A is a bit better than team B, RFK makes it even harder for team B to pull a win out of the bag: close games will be more unlikely. What this game needs is a SHALLOWER slippery slope, not a steeper one than already exists.
You're neglecting the fact that RFK is a source of res independent of RTs. It adds more relative PRes to the losing team than the winning team. Yes the losing team will have to turn it around and start getting kills, but that's sort of the point - a comeback should require improving your performance.
If team A is better than team B, team A should steamroll team B and that is absolutely the case in NS2 RFK or not.
In the case where team A is a bit better than team B, RFK makes it even harder for team B to pull a win out of the bag: close games will be more unlikely. What this game needs is a SHALLOWER slippery slope, not a steeper one than already exists.
You're neglecting the fact that RFK is a source of res independent of RTs. It adds more relative PRes to the losing team than the winning team. Yes the losing team will have to turn it around and start getting kills, but that's sort of the point - a comeback should require improving your performance.
'Tis a great point. Consider the idea of someone buys a shotgun earlier because he got RFK. This can cause the early shotgun to be lost where it might not have been. Advantage to the "losing team"
This can't be balanced around making pub stomps less stompy. In a decent game no one is getting more than 20 kills, so more than likely this will not buy you a shotgun. Sure there are concerns with the earlier fades, but that's an issue with the current speed of res flow, flagrantly small map sizes available and numerous other things. Fade timing should not be as quick as it is. Neither should lerks. A 6 minute fade should be a serious accomplishment in a reasonable public game.
GhoulofGSG9Join Date: 2013-03-31Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts
edited July 2013
The hole point about RFK is what it supports. Ok, maybe we should reward good players a little bit so they can try to "carry" their team. But in my eyes NS is all about Teamplay, so we should reward how good a player fits in their team and not how good he can farm kills by himself ("egotrip"). If we want to introduce another Res-System it should reminds the loosing team that winning is all about cooperating in a team, so that they pull their asses up and start to act as team. Thats what my RFP System wants to do, it wants to reward ppl who bring themself into the team. The current RFK even makes the K/D based playing as fade more attactive to all players and won't fix any problems. Imho we will get even more fades on the map.
Edit: I never wanted to say that the fade doesnt support the team. 2 fades are ok but having 4 at 8 min just makes the game some kind of boring
Comments
That said, if/when that doesn't lead to camping and tutling, RFK has the potential to provide a quite tense, engaging play experience. Periods of cautious stalking and expansion, punctuated by short, intense massacres.
Personally, if I was forced to implement a RF_ system, I'd choose RFP (res for points); with points from NPC activity going to tres. Unlike RFK, a RFP system doesn't ignore support roles and offers commanders alternate sources of income.
Really, I would like to see starting tres dropped and upgrade chambers becoming more costly. I would like to see the 3 levels of upgrade chambers play a larger role throughout the game rather than just the starting minutes. Sniping 1 or 2 out of 3 chambers should be a bigger deal and variation in upgrade level more apparent and meaningful.
There are a lot of things from the beta that should be reevaluated I think. All that time spent on attempting to balance a feature incomplete game didn't make any sense to me.
I don't think RFK will be enough by its self. Using a balanced 6v6 for example. There might be 1 carry player that gets ~5 more kills than everyone else before the current 8 minute fadesplosion mark. Everyone on the marine team is probably wielding a shotgun by this time with at least enough pres for another rebuy, likely 2. It seems unlikely to me that such a brief solo fade would risk the engagement and not just play very safe until 4 other fades are up.
To the HBZ BT server. Go!
How is rfk supposed to enable comebacks when a winning team has the advantage, and will use their advantage to gain an even greater advantage in terms of kills and therefore res? Rather than enable comebacks, it seems like an equal distribution of rfk will just make the inevitable defeat of team who lost the early game even more decisive. It also brings into question, what is the worth of a lost skulk vs. a lost marine? Are they equal? Should they have the same reward?
You can increase comebacks by increasing the cost of deaths for the winning team. You can do this in pretty much any way, respawn times, res lost, or even rfk. Just make sure that while the the winning team has the advantage, a few kills or a wipe will allow the enemy enough of an advantage to swing things back towards the middle.
However that still doesnt address the issue of good players stomping pubs EVEN harder than they already can. IMO that should be the first issue UWE needs to fix.
Oh comeback won't be a problem with rfk, just image some marines turteling with gls
There'd be one way to promote lifeform diversity.
Ok just my final two cents:
If we really need a RF-System there should be a RFP-System:
- Every 10 points gained give 1 pres
- Buildings (as gorge) only give points when finished build.
- Babblers eggs (cost 1 res) should give 2 points (instead of 5)
- Optimal: Add assists like in NS2Stats to the game (giving some points for helping teammates)
-> This would reward overall players who work for their team (looking at scores on my server: best after 45 min ca. 400 points = 40 extra res = extra fade or 2 shotguns)
Edit: This would also improve Teamplay in general, give points finally a "real" meaning and even balance things some more (repairing base/healing gives 2 points, spiking 1 point, so you can get back into game by just supporting your team alot).
GhoulofGSG9's idea is pretty cool if you MUST implement a Res for something system, as it rewards general good play even as a support lifeform or builder. I also like adding the RFK/P to the tRes (you get more upgrades faster). Though as others have pointed out, any sort of RFK/P or what ever will increase the snowball effect, and lead to an even more one sided game.
Here is something I ll throw out there:
How about rewarding the losing team with a little more tRes. ie. if the Kills total between the two teams are very different, give a slight increase to tRes per tick for the losing team. It should be very subtle, but it will give the losing team a slight chance (for team related things such as upgrades). This might combat some what the team stacks where one team has 5 times more total kills, than the other (ie. losing team can't win engagements and consequently, can't hold territory). It will drag the game out (possibily), but might also give the losing side a chance to come back.
Will have to think about how to tweak the numbers so you can't abuse it, but my thinking is the increase is slight and scaled to the kill difference.
Commander could easily farm pres for his players then. Healing a freshly dropped Cyst as Gorge awards you 5 points. So with that conversion rate, I could easily translate 2 tres to 1 pres just by dropping Cysts in front of that players nose again and again.
Reading the document I also couldn't find the real cause for adding RFK. The problem of the fade-splosion isn't, that all players do it at the same time. The problem is, that it is effective to have so many fades on the field at the same time. A real solution should address this, not add a band-aid that brings a whole bunch of other problems with it. For example: Was it tried to really humiliate the ability of fades to do damage to buildings? Right now it is annoying to destroy a building as fade. But it should be nearly impossible. Decrease the damage to buildings by a HUGE amount and you will see that the fade-splosion isn't worth it anymore. At least, they can't be everywhere and a placed RT would last longer.
@_necro_ if com wants to waste tres and marines time ofc he could do that. (direct dropping is always cheaper and safes time ....)
Only thing that have to be remove are points for bubbler eggs!!!!
So by trying to trick the RFP system you only will foul yourself
Oh believe me it can be just had a 4 min fade in one testgame with friends.
*cheers*
The pro marine racking up skulk kills or the fade doing his thing are still going to get some extra res, but so is the gorge healing up or the skulk who just chewed down a res tower.
Right now, pure RFK rewards skilled shooters and lifeforms. In some, not all, cases, players who are playing rambo and focusing on pure K:D may end up benefiting from RFK while not being much use to the team other than slaying lifeforms (not building at all, killing harvesters/Rts, etc). With RFP, every X points helps the team, and since building, welding, killing, and healspray etc adds to RFP, this is a great idea. With this, I'd LOVE to see the "Assist" points that NS2stats add into the main game. It promotes playing together.
I'm leary of the removal altogether of tres drops, just increase it maybe like the eggs for kharaa, making it painful? And I do believe initial pres or pres income will have to decrease to keep the lifeforms from showing up too early. With marines tech takes time. But with Kharaa currently, as soon as a player has the res, lifeforms are ready.
Also, if gorges get res from RFP, it would help the team if number 2 below was added (which I still think would be amazing). I just feel Kharaa are so stilted when it's encouraged not to run on the floor, but ALL structures barring hydras MUST be on the floor.
From my previous post in another thread, the things I suggested in addendum to RFK (now RFP):
Players not managing their resource flow as part of individual play is foolish and changes the style of play you will see for all players of all experience levels.
Now I do feel that that fades should not die. If you let your fade die, that should be a major setback. Frankly if a fade dies I think it should be just about game, but that's not the case. There are 3-5 fades, and even if they all die at some point they are replaced by team res far before they could have gone fade themselves.
So I 100% support removing egg drops with or without RFK. Personally I would like to see RFK implemented with no egg drops and a reduced resource flow for pres and probably tres also. If this has to be balanced with removing JP/EXO drops, so be it. But you can't remove weapon drops, that would be foolish.
Marines should be at an advantage all the time without turrets that actually help (make those light damage btw?). Right now the only way to win on marine is to turtle and more than likely drop turrets on your gates. It should be the marines winning unless aliens are able to keep their fades up and doing damage and using great teamplay with other lifeforms.
edit: to quote my post from yesterday
Also I'd like to add that umbra should block bullets that pass through it again. Needing only to blink through it is crazy. It's also dumb that it protects aliens but allows bullets to pass through it.
That is not true.
That's one less player on the field for a few seconds , possibly missing the most important engagement of the game.
That's why you often see in pcw skulks running away from rt while marine is approaching rather then bite it till death occurs or running away from engagements.
RFK is truly a bad idea as it's going to get the game even more frustrating and imbalanced ( if team A is better than B , team A will just roll over B even harder with RFK ).
RFP would be acceptable in some way I guess. This way you will find a reason to go gorge and help building stuff ...
If team A is better than team B, team A should steamroll team B and that is absolutly the case in NS2 RFK or not.
In the case where team A is a bit better than team B, RFK makes it even harder for team B to pull a win out of the bag: close games will be more unlikely. What this game needs is a SHALLOWER slippery slope, not a steeper one than already exists.
You're neglecting the fact that RFK is a source of res independent of RTs. It adds more relative PRes to the losing team than the winning team. Yes the losing team will have to turn it around and start getting kills, but that's sort of the point - a comeback should require improving your performance.
'Tis a great point. Consider the idea of someone buys a shotgun earlier because he got RFK. This can cause the early shotgun to be lost where it might not have been. Advantage to the "losing team"
This can't be balanced around making pub stomps less stompy. In a decent game no one is getting more than 20 kills, so more than likely this will not buy you a shotgun. Sure there are concerns with the earlier fades, but that's an issue with the current speed of res flow, flagrantly small map sizes available and numerous other things. Fade timing should not be as quick as it is. Neither should lerks. A 6 minute fade should be a serious accomplishment in a reasonable public game.
Edit: I never wanted to say that the fade doesnt support the team. 2 fades are ok but having 4 at 8 min just makes the game some kind of boring