AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
I have the bestestest idea!
Let's remove medpacks and jumping alltogether
Maybe then people will stop complaining about non-problems and start complaining about genuine problems.
*ahem* excuseme, time2gomakethreadaboutopgorges
I have the bestestest idea!
Let's remove medpacks and jumping alltogether
Maybe then people will stop complaining about non-problems and start complaining about genuine problems.
*ahem* excuseme, time2gomakethreadaboutopgorges
Pfft you can't remove jumping, it was what made WoW a success, just imagine that game without jumping and now imagine now bunn... wallhoppers...
Duck-jump will make the close combat even worse than it already is. For all the fantastic atmosphere and FPS-RTS fusion NS2 is, close combat between skulks and marines is actually the weaker and uglier part of the game.
Yes please remove jumping it is so unrealistic. Without jumping this would be a perfect real life simulation and could be used to train real life soldiers how to kill aliens and stuff.
While you're on it also remove all the others features that requires some skill and practice. Remove all the building crap too. We want a NS2:CoD mod!
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
I disagree, i find that's the most beautiful and ferocious part of the game, because skelks have to play smart to win, ambushes, small chip attacks, juke marines around corners etc.
Ok, been scrimming some more, and I really think the med pickup delay needs to be reduced or removed, with the current skulk/fade ball of destruction strategy there really isn't a way to win engagements.
Ok, been scrimming some more, and I really think the med pickup delay needs to be reduced or removed, with the current skulk/fade ball of destruction strategy there really isn't a way to win engagements.
Better aim.
And no I am not trolling. Meds are in a good place right now.
Whatever you do, do not reintroduce the commander-side med cooldown. Do not think about it ever again. Not because of balance issues, but because of the horrible UI. Trying to medspam effectively meant that every now and then you tried to press S and drop a medpack when the cooldown was on, resulting in your cursor not having a medpack, resulting in you choosing the marine you were medding, resulting in the support toolbar disappearing from your screen. This meant that you had to medspam by spamming E->S->click->E->S->click instead of S->click->S->click to make sure you didn't lose your toolbar in the process. I stopped commanding for a while because of the annoyance this caused. The player-side cooldown achieves the same thing but without frustrating the commander.
Yes king_yo was right. Medpacks, when spammed, should counter all alien attacks. In NS1, the medspammed marine either died because commander missed the med, didn't have enough resources or someone had focus. But keeping a guy alive like that with only knife available is just huge waste of res unless he kills something. Thus it was just carefully used whenever needed.
Medspamming was a commander skill in NS1, an important one at that. Good medspam made a difference between epic frag, won round and waste of res. I think one of the crucial difference between commanders was how well they used their resources on medpacks. Medding a lot of marines in combat effectively is a micro skill as other RTS micro skill. Medspam is always a risk with no guaranteed payoff. There's nothing "unfair" about it as long as the medpack cost is balanced.
So far, I'm agreeing with this guy. So long as there is enough of a delay between medpack pickup that aliens can out dps with their own attacks, there really isn't all that much that needs to be changed. Else more drastic changes appear.
He is saying exactly the opposite. Meds should out heal the alien's attack.
Well, I believe that med packs are now stable, whereas before they were just a bit strong.
Ok, been scrimming some more, and I really think the med pickup delay needs to be reduced or removed, with the current skulk/fade ball of destruction strategy there really isn't a way to win engagements.
Here is what I understand, medspam would imply marines using resources. Skulk + upgrades cost no upgrades (since last I played at least). And why doesn't the skulk jump around like an idiot as well? That's what I usually do, and it works!
Short ms-reduction for marines after a jump and the bunnyhopping issue is solved.
There must be a cause why skulks walk on 4 legs. Maneuverability.
Otherwise they would walk on 2 legs and carry a gun.
Marines have their range, skulks their agility.
Atm marines can gain too much agility by bunnyhopping imho.
Making marines move little faster and reduce "dodge jump" distance after one jump can be a good deal, it´s a fact that a Marines can magically go out of range of skulkbite and kill you is frustrating when you make a perfect stealth approach. Normally I prefer the games where it´s not "the first who see, the first who win" and you have the time to replicate, like ET, QL or UT but I find ridiculous that a player with good reflexes can doesn't give a shit about checking a room just because he knows how to use the jump and kill a skulk who perfectly engaged him.
Making marines move little faster and reduce "dodge jump" distance after one jump can be a good deal, it´s a fact that a Marines can magically go out of range of skulkbite and kill you is frustrating when you make a perfect stealth approach. Normally I prefer the games where it´s not "the first who see, the first who win" and you have the time to replicate, like ET, QL or UT but I find ridiculous that a player with good reflexes can doesn't give a shit about checking a room just because he knows how to use the jump and kill a skulk who perfectly engaged him.
This, however, is still incorrect. A jumping marine, even at the height of his speed, is slower than a non-celerity skulk pressing W. It's all about juking, and when it's all about juking, it's all about who's the better player, exactly like it should be. A marine who notices the skulk for the first time only when the first bite has landed is at a massive disadvantage.
A good player will notice the skulk incoming a very little time before he attacks him due to the noise of the landing (less than 0.5 sc), give him just the time to reflex jump. Marines can make a long jump in all of the direction without loosing speed, which it cannot be anticipated. At this point you can add the collision system which make the skulks "sliding" or just stop and loose all your speed on the model of a jumping Marines and make an uncontrolable miss by the alien player. I disagree about the fact it´s a pure question of speed or aim, there is a part of randomness in the sense of you can't know at all where the marine will jump: will it be right ? Left ? Back ? It´s total luck, I know it because I always use it in a 1v1 surprise attack and I rarely die while most of the time I deserved it because aliens have 1 chance on 4 to make the good choice. Hear me, I don't complain about it, I deal with and I will deal a very long time if it's necessary but I just think it's a frustrating feature for aliens and too permissive for Marines, movements should be more reflective than a button bash reflex.
Making marines move little faster and reduce "dodge jump" distance after one jump can be a good deal, it´s a fact that a Marines can magically go out of range of skulkbite and kill you is frustrating when you make a perfect stealth approach. Normally I prefer the games where it´s not "the first who see, the first who win" and you have the time to replicate, like ET, QL or UT but I find ridiculous that a player with good reflexes can doesn't give a shit about checking a room just because he knows how to use the jump and kill a skulk who perfectly engaged him.
This, however, is still incorrect. A jumping marine, even at the height of his speed, is slower than a non-celerity skulk pressing W. It's all about juking, and when it's all about juking, it's all about who's the better player, exactly like it should be. A marine who notices the skulk for the first time only when the first bite has landed is at a massive disadvantage.
I dont see how a marine should be even close to level footing once aliens get into melee range, the use of walls, ramps, stairs etc make the jump height reduction null and void.
This is where I think catering to the perception of equally skilled players have equal opportunity has undermined the good of the game.
Aliens stand stuff all chance at range and instead have to learn to close the gap without getting fragged....there is no "bullet dodge" mechanic.
Marines should have greater importance on not letting the kharaa get into melee range to begin with...and if they do get within range then the marine should be at significant disadvantage.
I would be happy for marines to have equal manouverability as skulks if skulks had ranged weapons, but they dont.
That marine directional changes dont have the same ramp up penalty as aliens means its not about who is better skilled as marines have better directional changes.
Its funny that this issue about jumping and aliens struggling once in melee range has been ongoing for a couple of years now....the problem is that the argument of equally skilled players should have equal chance of winning keeps getting thrown about and actually considered relevent to such an asymetrical game.
Its funny that the equal chance for aliens at range is centred around avoiding those engagements...yet the inverse is not true for marines.
I dont see how a marine should be even close to level footing once aliens get into melee range, the use of walls, ramps, stairs etc make the jump height reduction null and void.
This is where I think catering to the perception of equally skilled players have equal opportunity has undermined the good of the game.
Yes, the skulk should ofcourse have a movement advantage in melee, but it should not ever be as simple as melee range = huge skulk advantage.
I cbb writing a long post, so in short here are some reasons why this is so. If you want more explanation let me know 1) Marines are required to play aggressively, which means they need the ability to win fights in melee range. That is, the disadvantage should not be too large. If every blind corner or doorway with a ceiling space above and so on = absolute certain death, then the overall gameflow becomes severely constipated. 2) Individual skill and creativity must be allowed for the game to remain interesting. You know, more relationships between player input and player outcome. That is, the commander should not be the all powerful god when it comes to FPS vs FPS. 3) The game must not be heavily based around med spam requirement to prevent game loss (pay 2 win). We already see this currently due to subpar marine movement. 4) Skulks must work for their kills all the way to the last bite. In order for meaningful skulk movement to occur, you require meaningful marine movement. Think about that.
I dont see how a marine should be even close to level footing once aliens get into melee range, the use of walls, ramps, stairs etc make the jump height reduction null and void.
This is where I think catering to the perception of equally skilled players have equal opportunity has undermined the good of the game.
Yes, the skulk should ofcourse have a movement advantage in melee, but it should not ever be as simple as melee range = huge skulk advantage.
I cbb writing a long post, so in short here are some reasons why this is so. If you want more explanation let me know 1) Marines are required to play aggressively, which means they need the ability to win fights in melee range. That is, the disadvantage should not be too large. If every blind corner or doorway with a ceiling space above and so on = absolute certain death, then the overall gameflow becomes severely constipated. 2) Individual skill and creativity must be allowed for the game to remain interesting. You know, more relationships between player input and player outcome. That is, the commander should not be the all powerful god when it comes to FPS vs FPS. 3) The game must not be heavily based around med spam requirement to prevent game loss (pay 2 win). We already see this currently due to subpar marine movement. 4) Skulks must work for their kills all the way to the last bite. In order for meaningful skulk movement to occur, you require meaningful marine movement. Think about that.
Given that marines have less ramp up penalty fro directional changes the pendulum is too far in their favour.
aliens have 0 chance of killing a marine if they get seen outside of melee range....but marines can easily kill a skulk inside melee range.
So player skill has 0 impact in long range battles...i guess its ok to say the skulk needs to learn to avoid that situation...but somehow the inverse is not true for marines.
It is bs and turns a lot of ppl off...that sort of asymmetry is bad.
Comments
Let's remove medpacks and jumping alltogether
Maybe then people will stop complaining about non-problems and start complaining about genuine problems.
*ahem* excuseme, time2gomakethreadaboutopgorges
While you're on it also remove all the others features that requires some skill and practice. Remove all the building crap too. We want a NS2:CoD mod!
Better aim.
And no I am not trolling. Meds are in a good place right now.
Well, I believe that med packs are now stable, whereas before they were just a bit strong.
Basically double tapping a direction key for a short swift movement in a direction, not a jump, more like a quick sidestep or backstep.
I was wondering if that would be an appropriate alternative for marines to use instead of relying on bunnyhopping.
Disagree.
Especially with Armor 2 in the current state.
Armor 2 in 3 mins. You might need to adjust your tech route...
Chivalry, Medkit evil warfare?
There must be a cause why skulks walk on 4 legs. Maneuverability.
Otherwise they would walk on 2 legs and carry a gun.
Marines have their range, skulks their agility.
Atm marines can gain too much agility by bunnyhopping imho.
This, however, is still incorrect. A jumping marine, even at the height of his speed, is slower than a non-celerity skulk pressing W. It's all about juking, and when it's all about juking, it's all about who's the better player, exactly like it should be. A marine who notices the skulk for the first time only when the first bite has landed is at a massive disadvantage.
I dont see how a marine should be even close to level footing once aliens get into melee range, the use of walls, ramps, stairs etc make the jump height reduction null and void.
This is where I think catering to the perception of equally skilled players have equal opportunity has undermined the good of the game.
Aliens stand stuff all chance at range and instead have to learn to close the gap without getting fragged....there is no "bullet dodge" mechanic.
Marines should have greater importance on not letting the kharaa get into melee range to begin with...and if they do get within range then the marine should be at significant disadvantage.
I would be happy for marines to have equal manouverability as skulks if skulks had ranged weapons, but they dont.
That marine directional changes dont have the same ramp up penalty as aliens means its not about who is better skilled as marines have better directional changes.
Its funny that this issue about jumping and aliens struggling once in melee range has been ongoing for a couple of years now....the problem is that the argument of equally skilled players should have equal chance of winning keeps getting thrown about and actually considered relevent to such an asymetrical game.
Its funny that the equal chance for aliens at range is centred around avoiding those engagements...yet the inverse is not true for marines.
I cbb writing a long post, so in short here are some reasons why this is so. If you want more explanation let me know
1) Marines are required to play aggressively, which means they need the ability to win fights in melee range. That is, the disadvantage should not be too large. If every blind corner or doorway with a ceiling space above and so on = absolute certain death, then the overall gameflow becomes severely constipated.
2) Individual skill and creativity must be allowed for the game to remain interesting. You know, more relationships between player input and player outcome. That is, the commander should not be the all powerful god when it comes to FPS vs FPS.
3) The game must not be heavily based around med spam requirement to prevent game loss (pay 2 win). We already see this currently due to subpar marine movement.
4) Skulks must work for their kills all the way to the last bite. In order for meaningful skulk movement to occur, you require meaningful marine movement. Think about that.
9 bullets is faster than 3 bites. I dare say faster than 2 as well but I never tested or noticed with certainty
Given that marines have less ramp up penalty fro directional changes the pendulum is too far in their favour.
aliens have 0 chance of killing a marine if they get seen outside of melee range....but marines can easily kill a skulk inside melee range.
So player skill has 0 impact in long range battles...i guess its ok to say the skulk needs to learn to avoid that situation...but somehow the inverse is not true for marines.
It is bs and turns a lot of ppl off...that sort of asymmetry is bad.
Yeah..but once a skulk has dropped on you, unless he's bad I bet you can't land 9 bullets in him before he lands 3 bites. Unless aimbot.
bite cone is a lot more forgiving.
also imposed and natural reaction delay