How weak is this ?

UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos

Games are truly going from bad to worse. Some ppl taking example on clans (maybe) are producing the same kind of tactics.

Marines have improved enough now to brag on any kill they do. I'm always surprised to see someone kill a distant target in total darkness. That particular target which looks grey on a grey wall. Marine are so confident sometimes they just upgrade armory and don't even take time to make jetpack and Exos. They just burn, or nade everything.

but...

Behold the 1st seconds skulk rush
It looks like NS 1.2. Rush marine base in order to end the game or at least slow marines. Pretty efficient if done properly. Game last 1 or 2 minutes if not seconds. Boring meter growing fast.

Behold the gorge rush
At start 3 gorges in a marine base; building hydra and protecting each other is kind of a deadly thing. NS2 is a joke meter going up up up.

Behold the Lerk spam
As a response to get something in early game; lerks come in. Lerks are doing ok. A trade. More lerk means late fade or no fade. So it becomes a lerk spam. It seems to work depending on the accuracy of marines (which truly amaze me sometimes). And/Or depending on support (gorge). The problem is : it's kind of repetitive and the unique thing to do.

At last the so called Marine running with constant erection on the map starts to stack alien side (public). I'm gonna ask it gently : pls back off, you don't deserve it. These aliens have tested and made it work; enduring hours of bashing and lost games (plus + shity keybindings).

Marine side is supposed to rely on teamwork. Work with your team.


PS: just hoping that NS2.251 will be better on many things.

Comments

  • kk20kk20 Join Date: 2012-10-30 Member: 164592Members
    So what you are saying is that a coordinated attack or team wins? Wow who would have thunk it.
  • MaximumSquidMaximumSquid Join Date: 2010-07-20 Member: 72593Members
    The post makes some pretty sharp turns. . . at least 4 different moods or methodology represented (OP could probably be a poet if he/she applied)

    Just for flavor sake I might have to add that those early game Alien strats are hella old and have nothing to do with the current patch

    Also means that the closing line might need to be edited out or explained better since it's no longer can hold itself up

    I digress though. . .
  • amoralamoral Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Members
    gorge rush always brings a smile to my face. and it's not my fault if i'm running in to chomp down an obs, and 4 other guys run in behind me to chomp on everything else. honestly, i'm just here for the obs... they're tasty dishes.... ba dum tsh.
  • kk20kk20 Join Date: 2012-10-30 Member: 164592Members
    edited July 2013
    since someone disagrees then i'll elaborate.

    Skulk rush will only work on certain maps and if coordinated perfectly, otherwise its a log of eggs down the drain and just a bit of ammo for the marines. Guns hurt and half marine spawn can kill the skulks. You also fail to mention serversize as smaller servers have the marine advantage early game. 3 marines should demolish 6 skulks. Even on 32 player servers 6 marines can hold off 12 skulks initially.

    Gorge rush. what people fail to do is attack BEHIND the gorges. Sure that wall of 9 hydras is formidable, but the back end of gorges are weak sauce. 3 gorges on a wall are 3 gorges not building things weakening the aliens in the place they need the most - res. Again serversize scales, sure on a 24 man server this might work (2/3 gorges) but less and the comm should be screaming at the gorges to get their fat backsides working.

    Lerkspam is ok but early lerks are expensive in pres and weak. PLus if you are only holding ONE area against a few marines, that is how many advanced lifeforms vs cheap marines? Aliens need to stop the marine advance not merely hold a corridor or point. Plus this might work in big lofty maps but not twisty angular corridors such as tram.

    I have noticed that 250 has blunted the rushes, it tends to be rush to a POINT and hold rather than baserush for quick win/strike.
  • PimpToadPimpToad Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 166005Members
    I counter your skulk/gorge rush with FT/GL rush!

    But seriously that's what a rush is all about. It's hard to call it an all-in tactic for this game, but close enough considering a counterattack can have devastating consequences should the rush fail. This is why marine teams should spread out evenly so that they can scout a potential skulk train. There's always the chance to be rushed within the first minute or two and both teams need to be vigilant for such a possibility.

    Getting caught with your pants down isn't a valid excuse to cry foul.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    kk20 wrote: »
    You also fail to mention serversize as smaller servers have the marine advantage early game. 3 marines should demolish 6 skulks. Even on 32 player servers 6 marines can hold off 12 skulks initially.
    We must be playing different games, because smaller games tend to favor aliens from my experience. In a 6v6, 3 marines taking on 6 skulks leaves 2 other marines to cap res/pressure hives. In a 12v12, 6 marines taking on 12 skulks leaves 5 other marines to cap res/pressure hives. Its not hard to see that leaves marines in larger playercount servers in a better position.

  • amoralamoral Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Members
    kk20 wrote: »
    since someone disagrees then i'll elaborate.

    Skulk rush will only work on certain maps and if coordinated perfectly, otherwise its a log of eggs down the drain and just a bit of ammo for the marines. Guns hurt and half marine spawn can kill the skulks. You also fail to mention serversize as smaller servers have the marine advantage early game. 3 marines should demolish 6 skulks. Even on 32 player servers 6 marines can hold off 12 skulks initially.

    Gorge rush. what people fail to do is attack BEHIND the gorges. Sure that wall of 9 hydras is formidable, but the back end of gorges are weak sauce. 3 gorges on a wall are 3 gorges not building things weakening the aliens in the place they need the most - res. Again serversize scales, sure on a 24 man server this might work (2/3 gorges) but less and the comm should be screaming at the gorges to get their fat backsides working.

    Lerkspam is ok but early lerks are expensive in pres and weak. PLus if you are only holding ONE area against a few marines, that is how many advanced lifeforms vs cheap marines? Aliens need to stop the marine advance not merely hold a corridor or point. Plus this might work in big lofty maps but not twisty angular corridors such as tram.

    I have noticed that 250 has blunted the rushes, it tends to be rush to a POINT and hold rather than baserush for quick win/strike.


    lerks are assuredly not weak. if i've got a lerk that's even halfway decent, and won't die in the first 5 minutes of the game, i'm much better off dropping an egg. and now with umbra? damn powerful.
  • kk20kk20 Join Date: 2012-10-30 Member: 164592Members
    So as i said you need skill and cooperation, isnt that supposed to be 'as designed'? The op made it aound like this is a sure fire everygame cookie cutter approach. I disagreed and pointed out that in general the points raised were incorrect.
  • kk20kk20 Join Date: 2012-10-30 Member: 164592Members
    ScardyBob wrote: »
    kk20 wrote: »
    You also fail to mention serversize as smaller servers have the marine advantage early game. 3 marines should demolish 6 skulks. Even on 32 player servers 6 marines can hold off 12 skulks initially.
    We must be playing different games, because smaller games tend to favor aliens from my experience. In a 6v6, 3 marines taking on 6 skulks leaves 2 other marines to cap res/pressure hives. In a 12v12, 6 marines taking on 12 skulks leaves 5 other marines to cap res/pressure hives. Its not hard to see that leaves marines in larger playercount servers in a better position.

    I didnt say larger servers didnt. I merely said in smaller servers (in public servers) early on it favours marines in a skulk rush scenario. I was responding to the points made by the op not trying to counter every possible tactical decision.
  • ObraxisObraxis Subnautica Animator & Generalist, NS2 Person Join Date: 2004-07-24 Member: 30071Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Supporter, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    I'm pretty certain most of those tactics were used before 250. This isnt news to most of us.
  • RadtooRadtoo Join Date: 2012-11-06 Member: 167726Members
    Behold the 1st seconds skulk rush
    If it doesn't succeed due to marines having split up properly, encountered the skulks, killed some and respawned in their 2 IP base, the "anytime before 10 minutes marine rush" is worse. It can be assisted by PGs and powered by free, rapid respawns, but it doesn't even need the earlier.
    3 gorges in a marine base; building hydra and protecting each other is kind of a deadly thing
    Only if marines don't come back through PG or beacon or just walk back, but instead think "oh, we'll take them out when we respawn from those 2 IP".

    In general, this is easily countered, *and* the aliens will loose quite a lot of PRES for the gorges and hydras lost.
    Lerk spam [...] seems to work depending on the accuracy of marines (which truly amaze me sometimes).
    Yea. But it is only *one* good marine plus a bunch of normal ones that is required for Lerks to die. One well-hitting marine is enough to kill the Lerk before it escapes, and the Lerks won't be able to easily snipe him specifically in the team of marines, so more likely, 2+ will go down ever time they clash with that group... which is largely unsustainable.

    With improved frame rates, a lot of the old players are now much better shots, so Lerks mostly have gone from "can almost always get hits in for a while and then escape" to "die like flies" on servers I played on.
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
  • joederpjoederp Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165992Members
    edited July 2013
    I have to disagree OP just because this stuff only works if the attacking team is significantly more skilled than the losing team. When teams are even, this type of rush attack will set the aliens back as much as it sets the marines back. Armory dancing, quick obs + beacon, second IP, early shotguns to counter lerks, are all ways to counter the tactics you mentioned.
  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members
    skulk rush is so much easier now

    - slower marine spawning
    - weaker marines in the base (either they have no armor or they're busy welding and have no weapon out)
    - faster skulk movement

    mines counter it fine, but that still requires some basic level of competence.
    1) comm has to research it
    2) players have to stop saving res and buy them
    3) players have to put them in useful places

    that's asking too much for this player base

    and the people thinking that a marine can take out 2 skulks are vastly overestimating player ability
    - marines cannot see the target (no brightskins)
    - they cannot aim smoothly (bad engine / weak computers)
    - they cannot aim well in general (pub players)

    also comms don't drop meds that well
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    @biz sounds just like every build I've played.

    There's no stopping the opening skulk rush because there's literally nothing else for a skulk to do at that moment.
    You can only diminish the impacts of it, by requiring more players gorge, or by making mines cheaper to research etc.
    Another reason why I wish drifters didn't accelerate alien build rates instead of only gorges.

    Personally, almost every comm I've seen that lacks a "basic level of competence" also puts turrets everywhere.. At the very least in base, making a skulk rush horribly crippled.
  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members
    I'm not saying that it didn't work before

    I'm saying that it's way easier to pull off with the new "balance". and it doesn't need any coordinated aggression

    I don't think it's a minor problem... the success rate of this tactic has doubled or tripled because of the changes
  • B3rTB3rT Join Date: 2013-02-14 Member: 183058Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    biz wrote: »
    the success rate of this tactic has doubled or tripled because of the changes

    Nope. It has doubled or tripled because of inexperienced Marine players. Keep in mind, that we have many new players because of the 66% sale.

  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    biz wrote: »
    I'm saying thofat it's way easier to pull off with the new "balance". and it doesn't need any coordinated aggression

    skulk rushes require no coordination? it just happens by coincidence?

    don't really see how b250 makes it easier for one side or another to do an opening base rush.

    @OP, I highly disagree that games have gotten wors e. yes sometimes some games are decided within first few engagements still, but I've seen loads more comebacks on both sides when they're down and out. I played ( hesitant to admit) for like twelve hours yesterday and saw 2, maybe 3 base rushes from either side. the rest of the games were mostly pretty balanced. other than the early flamers and gls being frustrating, I noticed very little of the other things mentioned.
    Gorge rushes almost never work at the very begining of a game and prove to be a pretty good waste of pres, especially if they're able to drop/ not finish building 3 hydras ( which is what I usually witness happening). if a flock of lerks is unstoppable, then q_q, they're better than you and deserve to win. after all, you can't win em all.
    if you're really experiencing so much of this, maybe after a few rounds of base rushes you should find a new server populated by different people. I do find that sometimes a serv will get stale w/ the same players/strats, and a new serv freshens it up.
  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members
    idk about the new marine players from a sale...

    marines spawning 2 seconds slower and survivors not having armor makes skulks more deadly than before even if it's just old players in the game

    I'm talking about 1-3 skulks. that scale of rush happens often without any coordination

    if 2 skulks attack an IP, a marine won't even spawn in time in the new build
    if 1 skulk attacks an IP, he will do way more damage as the "biting IP time" vs. "fighting the spawning marine time" has increased a lot

    if the fight + travel time was 5 seconds, then it's now 4 seconds of biting an IP vs. 2 seconds. that's double

    if it's some staggered rush (i.e. no coordination) and a marine survies he will die in 2 bites instead of 3 when the next skulk comes
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