Sewlek's Beta Test Mod

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Comments

  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    I think both carapace AND regen are underpowered on higher lifeforms (actually regen sucks on skulk now too) I swear it got a quick nerf near the end of BT.
  • RabidWeaselRabidWeasel Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5337Members
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    I think both carapace AND regen are underpowered on higher lifeforms (actually regen sucks on skulk now too) I swear it got a quick nerf near the end of BT.

    Yeah I think it went from 7% to 5%. It's not exactly amazing right now but if you get crag first for beefier skulks then you're gonna pick regen on all your higher lifeforms because it's better than nothing.
  • hozzhozz Join Date: 2012-11-20 Member: 172660Members
    Given that Drifters might need some improvements, how about this: upgraded Hives also upgrade the Drifters.

    Crag Hive: Drifters have more HP/Armor
    Shift Hive: Drifters are faster
    Shade Hive: Drifters are cloaked again! (well, semi-cloaked)

    You could upgrade all Drifters when the respective Hive is available, or have the upgrade depend on in which Hive the Drifter was built (so Commanders can/have to choose one of the improvements)

    Any chance this could happen? :-)
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited July 2013
    Semi cloaked basically as useful as not cloaked at all. It's either visible, or it's not.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited July 2013
    Yeah, there's no point in putting forward crags to help your team out, it's more effective to retreat to hive, if you try heal on that crag you can get ambushed and die. It's ok for keeping harvesters up though. Increase healing to aliens by at LEAST double.

    EDIT: Damn, posted this after only reading the first line of @DC_Darkling 's post. Reading the second line I basically repeated him....
  • InzannInzann Join Date: 2013-06-27 Member: 185736Members
    edited July 2013
    Mattk50 wrote: »
    Mattk50 wrote: »
    Your kidding me, more of this crap?

    Serious question why do some people hate the idea of the game they're playing changing? I generally give up on a game that doesn't have a serious balance and/or content patch every 4-6 months (unless it's a very very mature game with fairly impeccable balance already) because the same old stale strategies are always optimal and you're just playing the game the same way you always did.

    My serious reply is that i dont view these as changes. Its a whole new game. The overwhelming majority of skills mastered playing as alien have been invalidated, for no reason. Take the fade changes, their effectiveness is pretty similar, so says everyone in support of BT. So, remind me, what balance purposes did pulling the rug out from under everyone who had previously played fade serve? Just to fuck with people? Dont get me wrong, theres a lot of positive changes. But they are lumped in with the horrid.

    My condolences to the people who have apparently already mastered the replacement mechanics within their first 17 seconds of BT, as you all no longer have any reason to continue to play now that you've worked your way to the top. I expect to see you all in the next NSL.
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Post useful content or feedback, not flame bait - or don't post at all.
    That was definitely a bad post, however i was shocked UWE is going to continue with the balance mod after the backlash. It was a good idea, for testing INDIVIDUAL changes, but it ended up taking over the entire game. Additionally. i remember reading a dev post saying something about "never doing this again" or at least making it less of a pain for the players.



    Well said, I like some of the changes but most feel like they were put in for no reason at all other then to "change things"? What the ****? I always thought the BT Mod was to many things at once, instead they implemented everything into the main game. What you should have done is add a few features at a time and see what the majority of the community thinks of it instead of JUST listening to people playing the BT. A lot of people liked everything the BT had to offer, a lot of us didn't. I tried the game after BT and theres so many things I don't like but I wont even bother to complain about it here, I know you wont change any of it.

    Instead I quit playing the game entirely, even though it was one of the best games I played in many years. Now I think its ruined, I feel fucked over, learning to master every single life form and now i have to do it again for no valid reason.. Most of my friends quit playing as well, theres still a couple that goes on but thats mainly because they miss the community we had on one of our favorite servers.
  • JCDJCD Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33150Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Playing aliens has never been more intuitive then with 250.
    Had alot of problems to play properly as fade before now I am at least a threath to the Marines,
    same goes for Skulking.
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2013
    hozz wrote: »
    Given that Drifters might need some improvements, how about this: upgraded Hives also upgrade the Drifters.

    Crag Hive: Drifters have more HP/Armor
    Shift Hive: Drifters are faster
    Shade Hive: Drifters are cloaked again! (well, semi-cloaked)

    You could upgrade all Drifters when the respective Hive is available, or have the upgrade depend on in which Hive the Drifter was built (so Commanders can/have to choose one of the improvements)

    Any chance this could happen? :-)

    This was actually part of BT for a long time. Drifters got regen with crag hives, celerity with shift hives, and cloaking with shade hives. It was removed near the end of the development process, not really sure what the reasoning was but I assume Sewlek didn't want to have cloaked drifters any more.

    On an unrelated note, the effectiveness of GLs and flamers really needs to be reduced. These weapons are way too effective relative to the skill required to use them (virtually zero). Flamers in particular are way too good right now. They have tons of ammo, do direct damage, DOT, energy drain, stop alien structures from functioning, destroy spores and umbra, and destroy bile bombs. And the only requirement to use them is spray in the general direction of aliens. Nothing is more frustrating than being forced out of engagements by these weapons when you're playing as a lifeform that actually requires skill.

    Also I'd love to see exos removed because they add nothing positive to the game experience, but this is likely a pipe dream.
  • angelousangelous Join Date: 2013-03-18 Member: 184073Members, WC 2013 - Silver
    I want to add a few things to this.

    Yes, grenades feel too powerful now, if you want a skill based, make them fuse-only (e.g. no more explode on alien contact, or make it so that infestation or bile also detonates them?)

    Drifters should get their passives back (either by being attached to a hive type, or as a separate research maybe?)

    To reduce the effectiveness of 1 CC for marines, maybe the Arms Lab upgrades shuold be tied a bit to the number of CCs? Two ideas can be that you can onlyy research up to W/A2 with only one CC, or that you can only do 3 or 4 upgrades with only 1 CC, thus requiring a 2nd CC to get W/A 3, because at the moment it's very hard for aliens to recover from being left with only one Hive, whereas Marines can get most of their upgrades with only 1 CC.

    Another thing might be that JP fuel be tied to the number of CCs? (i.e. the more CCs the more Fuel).

    The current problem with CCs is that there isn't much incentive to build any (of course, there's strategic value for beacons and a fall-back insurance against base-rush)

    Maybe hives hsuold go up to 4 Biomass each or 4 for the 1st hive and 3 for the second? thus requiring a 3rd hive for Stomp+xeno.

    Haven't read all the posts and also this mod changed every 15 minutes, so it's hard to know what has been tried and why/if that failed. I do remember a very OP vortex that would create a wall that would block all bullets that was a bit(very) OP
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
    Med packs - Dislike marine commander paying res to win an encounter so directly. Make medpacks have half of the initial heal and make the rest a HoT, so that it is more focussed on between-encounter healing. If the commander really wants to spam meds that should be ok as it will have more impact on the economy (need to do it twice as much).

    Alien Economy - Too easy to expand still with the drifter army. Would prefer a system where drifters can build things but if you want the maximum utility of the building it must be matured, which a gorge would be able to do. So you can expand res at the current rate but must either get a gorge to get the current res output, mist it (costs money) or wait for it to slowly mature. This would encourage more gorging and less fades.

    Lerks - Still need to have a good look at as I suggested in a post a while back. Mops up for the few minutes after its out before the shotguns, then becomes just a crappy umbra spam vehicle after. Spikes are pretty good but require too much exposure time to have any significant impact on marine HP. Suggest projectile spores on tier 1.

    Biomass - If I have 4 hives then have biomass should give me loads of HP so I can finish it quickly.

    Fades - If we're going to have 3 or 4 balled up on the field then they are too fast or have too much HP. Basically they're like shadowstep fades in their ability to go into a group of 4 marines and live, except they don't run into corners and walls due to clunky shadowstep mechanic.

    Onos - Nerfed HP, movement and damage output. If doing a big nerf, pick 2 and nerf the other, not all 3. Movement makes the life form un-fun and it really lacks a skill mechanic. What happened to boneshield?
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Scatter wrote: »
    Med packs - Dislike marine commander paying res to win an encounter so directly. Make medpacks have half of the initial heal and make the rest a HoT, so that it is more focussed on between-encounter healing. If the commander really wants to spam meds that should be ok as it will have more impact on the economy (need to do it twice as much).

    Please don't nerf med packs any more, the .3 second pick up delay already makes spamming marines painful.
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
    If it's painful then that's another issue. Currently they have too little impact on the marine economy and decide the outcome of the encounter far more than they should. Combine that with lolnano and marine jump spam and the frustration for skulks and lerks is significantly higher than what the marine commander undergoes.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited July 2013
    I have a few suggestions to address player frustration with grenade launchers:

    - Give Grenade Launcher a "detonate" function, which destroys all unexploded grenades without dealing damage, on alternative fire. This will help address the "teammates reflecting grenades in my face" issue.

    - Reduce Grenade damage, and re-enable Weapons upgrades for GL. Grenades are just too powerful early game, while alien players have less health, and don't have many structures that need clearing.

    Other suggestions:

    Lerk and Gorge biomass health scaling are too low, they currently only gain less than 1% of base effective HP per biomass. Giving them about 2-3% bonus health per biomass would bring them on par with marine upgrades.

    Alien biomass progression feels rather too linear. If aliens can afford to pay the expensive biomass costs, they almost always research the early upgrades, such as tunnel, bile bomb and umbra. Rushing for higher Biomass tier abilities are currently not viable strategies, because Biomass upgrades provide so little return for their high costs.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2013
    Commander interactions on PVP combat is currently way too strong in NS2, and honestly is probably one of the most frustrating parts of playing it. That, along with tech massing (shotguns/fades) remain two of the biggest things that need to be addressed. I think medpacks are simply a necessity at this point, just because so much of the gameplay has been balanced AND designed around them. Ideally however, they would cost 2 tres per med so that they cannot be spammed. As for drifter abilities and other marine comm (turrets,nano,macs) all those should either be removed, or severely nerfd IMO. Those would need to come at a similar time with both shotgun changes to either lower its power, or the addition of another mid tech level weapon (ideally IMO shotguns become midlevel, new weapon is high level). Also there would need to be fade changes to make the 'fade ball' less destructive, and also to hopefully require one additional player to gorge earlygame so that there is max 3 fades, or 4 without a lerk. This would also require even more changes (see a pattern?) to the alien comm to prevent them from just hopping out to build everything, or changes to the structure of the alien team that balances around that play (something to require 2 gorges?).

    I also disagree with regen nerf (cara needs buff on fade/onos), and disagree that crag is the worst chamber (its still the best). Celerity will be better once fade movement is less speedy overall, and aura/phantom are already quite strong so I dont think anything further should be done there. I think cara first will be less popular once A-people learn the movement better, and B-Once the shotgun mass is fixed.
  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
    edited July 2013
    Scatter wrote: »
    Med packs - Dislike marine commander paying res to win an encounter so directly. Make medpacks have half of the initial heal and make the rest a HoT, so that it is more focussed on between-encounter healing. If the commander really wants to spam meds that should be ok as it will have more impact on the economy (need to do it twice as much).
    You Lerk a lot more than you command. I command a lot more than I Lerk. Medpacks are how marines prevent being slaughtered by Lerks and Fades in the mid game, particularly in 1v1 encounters. The outcome with medpacks is, the Lerks and Fades are forced to retreat while the marines have spent SOME amount of tRes. Bad Lerks and Fades stay too long and get killed. If you want to reduce medpacks in any shape or form, you're essentially buffing Lerks and Fades in the mid game. I'm 100% against that. It's already hard enough to get even experienced commanders to recognise the importance of dropping medpacks in those encounters. Medpacks in the early game against skulks is more damaging to the marine economy because it delays upgrades.

    Also the cooldown means the marine has to have some amount of skill in order to survive until the next medpack can be absorbed. From what I've seen, this is a pretty good balance at the moment - I still lose marines to lerks dispite having medpacks under their feet, about 1 time in 3 I would say. Then it feels like you've wasted those medpacks... Making them less effective risks tipping the balance to the point where commanders will think "well he won't survive anyway, so what's the point in dropping any medpacks"
  • Mattk50Mattk50 Join Date: 2013-02-04 Member: 182824Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    still suggesting fades be reimplemented to replace the rabbits.
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited July 2013
    Khyron wrote: »
    You Lerk a lot more than you command. I command a lot more than I Lerk. Medpacks are how marines prevent being slaughtered by Lerks and Fades in the mid game, particularly in 1v1 encounters. The outcome with medpacks is, the Lerks and Fades are forced to retreat while the marines have spent SOME amount of tRes. Bad Lerks and Fades stay too long and get killed. If you want to reduce medpacks in any shape or form, you're essentially buffing Lerks and Fades in the mid game. I'm 100% against that. It's already hard enough to get even experienced commanders to recognise the importance of dropping medpacks in those encounters. Medpacks in the early game against skulks is more damaging to the marine economy because it delays upgrades.

    Also the cooldown means the marine has to have some amount of skill in order to survive until the next medpack can be absorbed. From what I've seen, this is a pretty good balance at the moment - I still lose marines to lerks dispite having medpacks under their feet, about 1 time in 3 I would say. Then it feels like you've wasted those medpacks... Making them less effective risks tipping the balance to the point where commanders will think "well he won't survive anyway, so what's the point in dropping any medpacks"

    This essentially goes back to what Dragon said about the game being balanced around medpacking during encounters, and I somewhat agree with the above points. If the com finds something frustrating, well to me that is subordinate to what is frustrating for the players on the field as they are more numerous. I simply would rather the game be balanced around me vs other players rather than me vs other players and the hand of god.

  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
    Scatter wrote: »
    This essentially goes back to what Dragon said about the game being balanced around medpacking during encounters, and I somewhat agree with the above points. If the com finds something frustrating, well to me that is subordinate to what if frustrating for the players on the field. I simply would rather the game be balanced around me vs other players rather than me vs other players and the hand of god.
    Well fair enough. But I'm happy for asymmetry to exist at this level. I'm happy that NS2 has intersections between the strategy layer and the tactical layer. I don't play games like quake because I find them boring after a little while.

    I think NS2 has had a fair bit of difficulty making the game engaging for commanders. As a commander, sometimes it feels like you could be playing a single player game. Those direct interventions actually help fix that. That the game has achieved some degree of balanced based on those interactions is an achievement, I think. I would want for more such interactions rather than less but they wouldn't necessarily have to be as immediate or as direct.
  • DestherDesther Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Members
    edited July 2013
    What's the objective behind cc being built anywhere?
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
    Like that's a bad thing.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited July 2013
    In regard to commander influence in combat, I support transparent (for both teams) commander interactions, as long as they can be reasonably countered by players on the opposing team.

    Nano Shield (on players) and Bone Wall are two prime examples of commander abilities that exert too much influence on the outcomes of combat too quickly, and cause too much player frustration. The opponent players being negatively affected by these types of interactions often feel as if a piano was dropped on their heads from the hand of a cruel god. That is because the "victims" is often not given enough time to react to such heavy handed swings of odds.

    Although the abilities mentioned above may be considered "balanced" from the commanders' perspective, due to their costs to the team. They can be very unfair, and "antifun" for individual players, who cannot predict the actions of the invisible enemy commander.

    Instant "global" abilities should be carefully balanced, because they are powerful, while being easy to use. But most of all, they can potentially kill the enjoy of the game for players.
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    At least Bone Wall can be prevented by removing infestation in the combat zone first.
    Nano Shield is just like giving you the middle finger out of nowhere. I wonder if it should be tied to having an active Power Node in the room instead, so it only works in friendly territory as well.
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
    Khyron wrote: »
    Well fair enough. But I'm happy for asymmetry to exist at this level. I'm happy that NS2 has intersections between the strategy layer and the tactical layer. I don't play games like quake because I find them boring after a little while.

    I think NS2 has had a fair bit of difficulty making the game engaging for commanders. As a commander, sometimes it feels like you could be playing a single player game. Those direct interventions actually help fix that. That the game has achieved some degree of balanced based on those interactions is an achievement, I think. I would want for more such interactions rather than less but they wouldn't necessarily have to be as immediate or as direct.

    I wasn't really suggesting the game be turned into quake, just that frustration inducing elements be reduced or removed. Bouncing marines, medpack spam and nanospam; do we really need all 3 of these intrusive elements to be present? Yes it may be balanced in some UWE-esque statistical 50/50 holy grail fashion, but it doesn't reflect whether the mechanics used to achieve that are fun (the primary goal of the game) or at the very least as un-frustrating as possible (a desirable goal).

    This isn't an objection to the commander influencing the game, just an objection to it being so intrusive at all points in the game especially if its for the creation of artificial asymmetry. We used to have true asymmetry, but then UWE decided it would be good to bring in alien commander and pres for the marine team causing a direct undermining of commander involvement in the game flow.
  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
    Scatter wrote: »
    I wasn't really suggesting the game be turned into quake, just that frustration inducing elements be reduced or removed. Bouncing marines, medpack spam and nanospam; do we really need all 3 of these intrusive elements to be present? Yes it may be balanced in some UWE-esque statistical 50/50 holy grail fashion, but it doesn't reflect whether the mechanics used to achieve that are fun (the primary goal of the game) or at the very least as un-frustrating as possible (a desirable goal).

    This isn't an objection to the commander influencing the game, just an objection to it being so intrusive at all points in the game especially if its for the creation of artificial asymmetry. We used to have true asymmetry, but then UWE decided it would be good to bring in alien commander and pres for the marine team causing a direct undermining of commander involvement in the game flow.
    I should have clarified a bit better what I meant by asymmetry there. I was basically talking about the number of players in an encounter. Lerk > Marine but Marine+Comm ~= Lerk. Specifically in that mid game period where upgrades are low and lone marines are roaming around to deal with res nodes etc. The reason I brought quake in to this is because it has very clear balance based on 1v1 encounters, not because I think you are a bad person.

    As for it being overly intrusive I'm not convinced. Maybe I simply need a better example of what the alternative is before I could see that the current system is bad. Either way, I don't believe it has been implemented for the purpose of creating asymmetry. Clearly it was introduced because medpacks were in NS1, and back then it was a relatable way to connect the commander to the battlefield.

    I would mention that I re-read your original post at this point and noticed you at least identified the problem with Lerks, but I don't think the change you proposed there offsets the change to medpacks, nor does it really resolve the problem you identified with Lerks. What I'm getting at here is that I could accept a change to medpacks if it was packaged with some changes to Lerks and Fades. Still, I'm not sold on medpacks being a problem of the highest order.

    And on the topic of Fades, the problem with them is 'Fade Cycling' (that thing where 4 fades tag team their attacks, blinking back and forth between the hive and the combat area). The only way to counter it is to get lucky with shotguns landing simultaneous hits which is then enormously annoying to fades because it's entirely luck based not skill based when you lose your fade. (Fade being my preferred higher lifeform). I still think that in balance mod fades are either fast or deadly, but maybe that's just a reflection of my mediocre skills as fade.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    Inzann wrote: »
    I tried the game after BT and theres so many things I don't like but I wont even bother to complain about it here, I know you wont change any of it.
    Instead I quit playing the game entirely, even though it was one of the best games I played in many years.
    I dont know where people get this "i wont bother because i know it wont change" attitude from?
    This page, this thread, these forums.. are nothing but the masses providing feedback to change this game.

    You've seen how radical things can change from feedback with 250... so why wouldn't you contribute any yourself?
    :-/
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Because he doesn't care enough and/or is lazy.
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