right now everyone but the comm can essentially go for any life form
that is more options than you will ever get from a system that tries to restrict the possibilities
instead of removing the option, make it less viable for a wide variety of situations
Any idea on how to fix this? Does there need to be a way for aliens to deal with turtles, or do we need to keep marines from being able to turtle in the first place?
Mhh... actually (and I was never a fan of RFK!) ResForDamage could work. At least it counts for buildings too. This way players that aren't this good in killing other players have a chance to be useful for the team and accumulate res. It also sends the direct message that you should attack RTs and stuff.
With ResForDamage you also don't need to win an engagement. You would also benefit in just causing some damage before you die and it is less binary (=winner gets it all) it distributes better.
Placing cysts in b250 is currently very frustrating. The radius for placement has been increased, and yet there are many parts of the maps where you cannot place a cyst, even if it's in the radius.
I think single chair exos at least are not adding anything to the game, just prolonging stalemates. If marines can't recapture a second CC without that tech, they're almost always too far behind to stage a comeback even with it.
Placing cysts in b250 is currently very frustrating. The radius for placement has been increased, and yet there are many parts of the maps where you cannot place a cyst, even if it's in the radius.
That is because while the radius is an outline, it actually performs a pathfinding algorithm check to get the distance to the closest cyst along the path. And only that distance matters for the cyst range. So if you cyst around corners, you can "run out of your available range" while still being visually in the circle.
Unfortunately RFK will not fix the fade explosion problem, its really only a piece of what could be a potential solution - a massive restructuring of pres income, where RTs give a much smaller portion of your pres income, and actions (killing players/buildings, scouting, dealing damage, w.e) becoming the main gain. However that still will generally have people getting similar pres income, so you still have the enevitable fade ball. I still think that a good mid/high tech marine weapon with good midrange damage potential could fix a lot of the problems with fade balls, simply because it would allow marines to have a much better chance of killing individual fades.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2013
They already do very little.. But ya i agree in essence, and have advocated for more "hard counter" mechanics like not being able to do structural damage at all.
The problem is, that wouldn't solve the issue on it's own.. Slaughtering an entire team would still mean you won, even if you don't touch a single structure. (eventually you just baby sit the IPs)
But yeah, those sorts of steps are what would do it.. It's ripe for ideas.
Hint : if alien expansion required player interaction instead of stupid drifters, it would also lessen the issue. Especially if gorges cost more and alien auto growth was even slower /non existent without them. This would create the same risk that a team takes when everyone saves for onos..
Placing cysts in b250 is currently very frustrating. The radius for placement has been increased, and yet there are many parts of the maps where you cannot place a cyst, even if it's in the radius.
I'm actually amazed that UWE hasn't reverted cysts before the whole radius anti-spam bs given that the creep mechanic is all but useless for the aliens now. Every 'balance' change to the cyst is all but pointless since marines can build on creep now.
Unfortunately RFK will not fix the fade explosion problem, its really only a piece of what could be a potential solution - a massive restructuring of pres income, where RTs give a much smaller portion of your pres income, and actions (killing players/buildings, scouting, dealing damage, w.e) becoming the main gain. However that still will generally have people getting similar pres income, so you still have the enevitable fade ball. I still think that a good mid/high tech marine weapon with good midrange damage potential could fix a lot of the problems with fade balls, simply because it would allow marines to have a much better chance of killing individual fades.
I agree with the higher damage mid-range weapon for sure.
I don't think the "lifeform explosion" is a problem in and of itself. It's a strategy that should have its ups and downs, and if it's overpowered that's a balance problem. Too many players saving for Fade should have consequences because you don't have enough Gorges/Lerks, and because no one has the res to go Onos later.
I don't think the "lifeform explosion" is a problem in and of itself. It's a strategy that should have its ups and downs, and if it's overpowered that's a balance problem. Too many players saving for Fade should have consequences because you don't have enough Gorges/Lerks, and because no one has the res to go Onos later.
I don't think the "lifeform explosion" is a problem in and of itself. It's a strategy that should have its ups and downs, and if it's overpowered that's a balance problem. Too many players saving for Fade should have consequences because you don't have enough Gorges/Lerks, and because no one has the res to go Onos later.
Too many people waiting for Fade does have consequences, which is why it does not happen. People will go Lerk and Gorge. So everything is fine here.
Waiting for Onos is hardly worth it because currently the Onos is too expensive and too weak (meaning it takes too long to get one, and they suck, especially without upgrades), but the problem here is the weak Onos (so waiting for one makes little sense). Making Onos stronger could help with the "lifeform explosion".
The only real downside to any "lifeform explosion" is that Aliens have less Skulks, which are the only useful class for effective RT harassment, so they always need enough Skulks or will be out-economied.
I think the proposed "HMG" (= better AR) is a good idea, because the real problem is that Marines have a hard time actually killing lifeforms (especially Fades!) and the "HMG" can help.
TLDR:
So I agree, instead of somehow trying to "fix" the lifeform explosion by changing the Alien economy or whatever, balance must get better: Onos must be stronger (so they can counter an Exo/Spam train and waiting for one might be very necessary, so not everybody can go Fade or it might backfire for Aliens) and the "HMG" can help Marines kill higher lifeforms (aka Fades).
Gosh, aliens are so frustrating right now if you don't have enough players on your team who know proper tactics.
We can dominate almost the entire map and keep the marines on 2-3 RTs for the majority of the game and are yet unable to end their final turtle. It's mostly to blame on inexperienced players because the only tactic that somewhat works is to zerg them down in constant Bile Bomb rushes - but good luck trying to explain that to a bunch of newbies.
I've had three matches today and it was just no fun to play a match that would have been decided 20-30 minutes ago and in the end turned possibly even turned around because marines still get all their stuff save for Dual Exos on 1 CC. So many Onos died pointlessly and Gorges kept trying to heal them instead of using Bile Bomb.
You may argue that aliens might not deserve victory regardless of the previous course of the match if they are not clever enough to use Bile Bomb, but then again is it quite questionable when aliens always have to rely on the same "strategy" and ability to win the game past a certain time in the match. Marines have tons of different methods to get rid of a Hive, so there is not really a problem when a newbie doesn't know a specific required strategy because he can contribute just by doing whatever he likes.
Exos are still a cheap and unstoppable pain train that can be used to tear any number of Hives down in quick succession. Yet the Onos is at least twice as expensive but far more fragile and less of a base destroyer that has trouble coping with any marines that bought a 15 res upgrade.
There need to be more possible winning strategies for aliens in a marine turtle situation. Potential improvements:
- Increase Onos viability again so that it's worth the res cost. Speed, HP, possibly attack range.
- Buff Crag healing output, so aliens can properly siege marines from a forward base instead of having to return to the Hive or getting healed by Gorges constantly.
- More intuitive way of getting eggs to the front line, so you can keep a pressure up and direct newbies easier where you want them to be. Currently you have to make sure that there is an egg in the tiny range of the Shift, then click the "Teleport Egg" button, then the destination, then wait a few seconds for the teleportation to take place until the button becomes available again (if there is another egg in range). Most new khammanders don't even realize the possibilities of the ability because it's so unintuitive. Perhaps you could queue up to 3-5 eggs for teleportation and the Shift will teleport them to a free spot in the destination area as soon as an egg is available?
- Move W3/A3 to second CC, so marines are weaker on their final turtle.
- Allow Vortex to disable the Arms Lab upgrades, so it actually has a reason to exist as 3rd Hive ability. Or introduce some 3rd Hive abilities that are actually able to end the game.
- Raise maximum Biomass per Hive to 4, so you can also max your HP out on 4 TP maps and help to end marine turtles faster. Plus it provides more varied strategies.
- Something to make Bombard Whip rushes viable. There is currently no point to it due to how long it takes for infestation to grow and how vulnerable the cysts and the Whips themselves are.
- Whips should have a toggle where you can define if you want them to always use melee, always use Bombard or use whatever is suitable according to the range. That way the Whips won't give their position away if you don't want them to, since it's currently a bit frustrating if a Whip matured and now starts to alert enemies long before you can actually lure them into an ambush with multiple Whips.
On a side note: The bug where teleported pre-evolved eggs become unusable is still not fixed and is confusing players and quite troublesome if you just made your 100 Tres investment unusable by accident.
It's the same problem the game has had since launch, but exacerbated by 250 - it takes more coordination to end the game than it does to effectively win it, particularly for aliens. If the winning team controls the map, they have demonstrated their superiority, so just let them steamroll the last base so a new game can start. Trying to hold out hope for a comeback in that situation is misguided IMO.
It's the same problem the game has had since launch, but exacerbated by 250 - it takes more coordination to end the game than it does to effectively win it, particularly for aliens. If the winning team controls the map, they have demonstrated their superiority, so just let them steamroll the last base so a new game can start. Trying to hold out hope for a comeback in that situation is misguided IMO.
Yet the devs have decided to follow this route and apply changes to the side that is already notorious for prolonging games needlessly. Would be interesting to see the 'stat' the devs used to justify this change considering most player statements (breaking marine turtle = banging head against wall and aliens bending over @ 1-Hive) would argue the contrary.
Gosh, aliens are so frustrating right now if you don't have enough players on your team who know proper tactics.
We can dominate almost the entire map and keep the marines on 2-3 RTs for the majority of the game and are yet unable to end their final turtle. It's mostly to blame on inexperienced players because the only tactic that somewhat works is to zerg them down in constant Bile Bomb rushes - but good luck trying to explain that to a bunch of newbies.
I've had three matches today and it was just no fun to play a match that would have been decided 20-30 minutes ago and in the end turned possibly even turned around because marines still get all their stuff save for Dual Exos on 1 CC. So many Onos died pointlessly and Gorges kept trying to heal them instead of using Bile Bomb.
You may argue that aliens might not deserve victory regardless of the previous course of the match if they are not clever enough to use Bile Bomb, but then again is it quite questionable when aliens always have to rely on the same "strategy" and ability to win the game past a certain time in the match. Marines have tons of different methods to get rid of a Hive, so there is not really a problem when a newbie doesn't know a specific required strategy because he can contribute just by doing whatever he likes.
Exos are still a cheap and unstoppable pain train that can be used to tear any number of Hives down in quick succession. Yet the Onos is at least twice as expensive but far more fragile and less of a base destroyer that has trouble coping with any marines that bought a 15 res upgrade.
Im probably one of those noobs, and heres the thing: I cant effectively bile the enemy base when the marines are turtling, period. Im not completely sure if im missing something, but its just not happening.
Situation 1: on my own, or with other gorges bombing. I get quickly killed by the railgun exo and suiciding AR marines. Im forced to constantly show myself when biling because the bile bomb attack range seems to be just shorter than every hallway.
Situation 2: making a push with onos. I would love to be biling in this situation, but again there are problems. Foremost, i need to expose myself to bile correctly. I cant use the onos as a meatshield. And if i die before the onos, there is no point in him being there right? (a possible solution here is to allow bile bomb to go through aliens). Secondly, they often have GLs up, which means not only am i susceptible to spam, but a direct hit on the onos will hit me as well. Which means I have to be heal spraying myself, just so i dont die.
Besides, if we just bile bomb seige and lose a gorge every push, cant marines just weld faster than we can damage them?
Or the Tres costs for all marine weapon drops need to be increased, similar to how alien egg drop costs are increased massively as well. Because even if you can kill those pesky Jetpackers, marines don't have any res sinks left in the late game that would prevent them from dropping 2-3 new Jetpacks, etc regularly on 1-2 RTs. Especially since weapons can be recycled.
- Move W3/A3 to second CC, so marines are weaker on their final turtle.
- Buff Crag healing output, so aliens can properly siege marines from a forward base instead of having to return to the Hive or getting healed by Gorges constantly.
- Increase Onos viability again so that it's worth the res cost. Speed, HP, possibly attack range.
These three, in that order. Marines simply have too much fire power on 1cc for the average pub alien team to deal with. Aliens have to be very aggressive to win against a tech'd up, turttling marine base - literally needing an "all for one, one for all" mentality in which they need to be willing to give up their lifeform in a charge. Plenty of players don't have that mentality.
Aliens have to be very aggressive to win against a tech'd up, turttling marine base - literally needing an "all for one, one for all" mentality in which they need to be willing to give up their lifeform in a charge. Plenty of players don't have that mentality.
This is not a mentality issue, it is a game design issue.
You can't make a game in which keeping your lifeform alive is the most important thing to do, and then suddenly expect people to throw their lifeforms away for a chance of a gain (basically risking an Onos to kill a wall-in Armory or Robo), and the danger of a Marine comeback. Marines can turtle multiple of their bases too easily... some phased in GL/FT JPs and maybe an Exo are all they need, so it's not just about last base turtles.
You can't blame players for not doing the opposite of how the entire game (minus this turtle issue) works.
It's more bad design than bad player behavior.
Fixes would be the usual suspects:
more Armor/HP for Onos, straight and simple
Proto Lab only on 2 CC. What do Marines even need a second CC for currently? Only reason to build one is for beacon, and you basically get Dual Exos for free with it as a side extra.
This is not a mentality issue, it is a game design issue.
You can't make a game in which keeping your lifeform alive is the most important thing to do, and then suddenly expect people to throw their lifeforms away for a chance of a gain (basically risking an Onos to kill a wall-in Armory or Robo), and the danger of a Marine comeback. Marines can turtle multiple of their bases too easily... some phased in GL/FT JPs and maybe an Exo are all they need, so it's not just about last base turtles.
You can't blame players for not doing the opposite of how the entire game (minus this turtle issue) works.
It's more bad design than bad player behavior.
I completely disagree. Most pubbers completely fail at understanding when to engage, how to engage and when to retreat. Instead they do as you say and throw their life forms away pointlessly. That isn't the game telling them to do that..that's lack of understanding how to play the game.
It makes sense for a game to penalize you losing your expensive equipment or lifeform. NS2 is a game that requires you to build resources to buy things to help you finish off the other team. You can't make those things unkillable or idiot friendly because then the really good players would go 100-0 in every game they play and you would create a even worse snowball affect the winning team has.
All that said, your suggestions I tend to agree with in part:
-I don't play onos but they do seem to die very quickly. I suspect this might be due to players buying them w/o upgrades though.
-Proto lab I should feel should stay on 1 cc but exos specifically should be moved to 2. Exos are pubbers kryptonite and its far too easy to get 4 of them in a group and completely wreck everything. They also allow for terrible turtles.
- Disagree with A3/W3 on 2cc. I used to want that but I don't feel its an issue any more. You want the marines to be able to come back if they can pull off the proper teamwork. Perhaps make a/w 3 not re searchable until 2nd cc is up but have them not lose it if the 2nd cc goes down. This would allow teams that had a chance to begin with have a chance to come back and now allow stupid turtles to teams that failed from the get go.
- agreed gl spam is too much. They are too easy to aquire and too powerfull. Blast radius should be reduced by like 25% and GL/Flame thrower should require to be researched.
Regardless of the reason onos are dying, they don't have enough health to get things done. They charge through a damage filled corridor, get in a couple smashes on whatever structure is blocking the doorway, then retreat. If crags were unnerfed, this may be a viable strategy, but right now its too slow to deal damage.
Comments
right now everyone but the comm can essentially go for any life form
that is more options than you will ever get from a system that tries to restrict the possibilities
instead of removing the option, make it less viable for a wide variety of situations
Any idea on how to fix this? Does there need to be a way for aliens to deal with turtles, or do we need to keep marines from being able to turtle in the first place?
With ResForDamage you also don't need to win an engagement. You would also benefit in just causing some damage before you die and it is less binary (=winner gets it all) it distributes better.
That is because while the radius is an outline, it actually performs a pathfinding algorithm check to get the distance to the closest cyst along the path. And only that distance matters for the cyst range. So if you cyst around corners, you can "run out of your available range" while still being visually in the circle.
The reason is : if its effective, a team will simply coordinate to make it happen, still.
The only solution is to implement RPS mechanics, making it a non viable strategy and something to be avoided.
What if fades did substantially less damage to buildings?
You couldn't have 4 fades in a 6v6 then because it'd take forever to actually kill a phasegate.
Also buff the onos slightly again in terms of health so it can afford to do damage to buildings instead of running away
The problem is, that wouldn't solve the issue on it's own.. Slaughtering an entire team would still mean you won, even if you don't touch a single structure. (eventually you just baby sit the IPs)
But yeah, those sorts of steps are what would do it.. It's ripe for ideas.
Hint : if alien expansion required player interaction instead of stupid drifters, it would also lessen the issue. Especially if gorges cost more and alien auto growth was even slower /non existent without them. This would create the same risk that a team takes when everyone saves for onos..
I'm actually amazed that UWE hasn't reverted cysts before the whole radius anti-spam bs given that the creep mechanic is all but useless for the aliens now. Every 'balance' change to the cyst is all but pointless since marines can build on creep now.
I agree with the higher damage mid-range weapon for sure.
Oh, and friendly fire in ns2stats..
Gorge health down, bunnyhop off slides in.
Waiting for Onos is hardly worth it because currently the Onos is too expensive and too weak (meaning it takes too long to get one, and they suck, especially without upgrades), but the problem here is the weak Onos (so waiting for one makes little sense). Making Onos stronger could help with the "lifeform explosion".
The only real downside to any "lifeform explosion" is that Aliens have less Skulks, which are the only useful class for effective RT harassment, so they always need enough Skulks or will be out-economied.
I think the proposed "HMG" (= better AR) is a good idea, because the real problem is that Marines have a hard time actually killing lifeforms (especially Fades!) and the "HMG" can help.
TLDR:
So I agree, instead of somehow trying to "fix" the lifeform explosion by changing the Alien economy or whatever, balance must get better: Onos must be stronger (so they can counter an Exo/Spam train and waiting for one might be very necessary, so not everybody can go Fade or it might backfire for Aliens) and the "HMG" can help Marines kill higher lifeforms (aka Fades).
We can dominate almost the entire map and keep the marines on 2-3 RTs for the majority of the game and are yet unable to end their final turtle. It's mostly to blame on inexperienced players because the only tactic that somewhat works is to zerg them down in constant Bile Bomb rushes - but good luck trying to explain that to a bunch of newbies.
I've had three matches today and it was just no fun to play a match that would have been decided 20-30 minutes ago and in the end turned possibly even turned around because marines still get all their stuff save for Dual Exos on 1 CC. So many Onos died pointlessly and Gorges kept trying to heal them instead of using Bile Bomb.
You may argue that aliens might not deserve victory regardless of the previous course of the match if they are not clever enough to use Bile Bomb, but then again is it quite questionable when aliens always have to rely on the same "strategy" and ability to win the game past a certain time in the match. Marines have tons of different methods to get rid of a Hive, so there is not really a problem when a newbie doesn't know a specific required strategy because he can contribute just by doing whatever he likes.
Exos are still a cheap and unstoppable pain train that can be used to tear any number of Hives down in quick succession. Yet the Onos is at least twice as expensive but far more fragile and less of a base destroyer that has trouble coping with any marines that bought a 15 res upgrade.
There need to be more possible winning strategies for aliens in a marine turtle situation. Potential improvements:
- Increase Onos viability again so that it's worth the res cost. Speed, HP, possibly attack range.
- Buff Crag healing output, so aliens can properly siege marines from a forward base instead of having to return to the Hive or getting healed by Gorges constantly.
- More intuitive way of getting eggs to the front line, so you can keep a pressure up and direct newbies easier where you want them to be. Currently you have to make sure that there is an egg in the tiny range of the Shift, then click the "Teleport Egg" button, then the destination, then wait a few seconds for the teleportation to take place until the button becomes available again (if there is another egg in range). Most new khammanders don't even realize the possibilities of the ability because it's so unintuitive. Perhaps you could queue up to 3-5 eggs for teleportation and the Shift will teleport them to a free spot in the destination area as soon as an egg is available?
- Move W3/A3 to second CC, so marines are weaker on their final turtle.
- Allow Vortex to disable the Arms Lab upgrades, so it actually has a reason to exist as 3rd Hive ability. Or introduce some 3rd Hive abilities that are actually able to end the game.
- Raise maximum Biomass per Hive to 4, so you can also max your HP out on 4 TP maps and help to end marine turtles faster. Plus it provides more varied strategies.
- Something to make Bombard Whip rushes viable. There is currently no point to it due to how long it takes for infestation to grow and how vulnerable the cysts and the Whips themselves are.
- Whips should have a toggle where you can define if you want them to always use melee, always use Bombard or use whatever is suitable according to the range. That way the Whips won't give their position away if you don't want them to, since it's currently a bit frustrating if a Whip matured and now starts to alert enemies long before you can actually lure them into an ambush with multiple Whips.
On a side note: The bug where teleported pre-evolved eggs become unusable is still not fixed and is confusing players and quite troublesome if you just made your 100 Tres investment unusable by accident.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s
Im probably one of those noobs, and heres the thing: I cant effectively bile the enemy base when the marines are turtling, period. Im not completely sure if im missing something, but its just not happening.
Situation 1: on my own, or with other gorges bombing. I get quickly killed by the railgun exo and suiciding AR marines. Im forced to constantly show myself when biling because the bile bomb attack range seems to be just shorter than every hallway.
Situation 2: making a push with onos. I would love to be biling in this situation, but again there are problems. Foremost, i need to expose myself to bile correctly. I cant use the onos as a meatshield. And if i die before the onos, there is no point in him being there right? (a possible solution here is to allow bile bomb to go through aliens). Secondly, they often have GLs up, which means not only am i susceptible to spam, but a direct hit on the onos will hit me as well. Which means I have to be heal spraying myself, just so i dont die.
Besides, if we just bile bomb seige and lose a gorge every push, cant marines just weld faster than we can damage them?
Yes.
And that GL gets recycled and reused should the marine die, unlike your gorge and onos.
These three, in that order. Marines simply have too much fire power on 1cc for the average pub alien team to deal with. Aliens have to be very aggressive to win against a tech'd up, turttling marine base - literally needing an "all for one, one for all" mentality in which they need to be willing to give up their lifeform in a charge. Plenty of players don't have that mentality.
You can't make a game in which keeping your lifeform alive is the most important thing to do, and then suddenly expect people to throw their lifeforms away for a chance of a gain (basically risking an Onos to kill a wall-in Armory or Robo), and the danger of a Marine comeback. Marines can turtle multiple of their bases too easily... some phased in GL/FT JPs and maybe an Exo are all they need, so it's not just about last base turtles.
You can't blame players for not doing the opposite of how the entire game (minus this turtle issue) works.
It's more bad design than bad player behavior.
Fixes would be the usual suspects:
I completely disagree. Most pubbers completely fail at understanding when to engage, how to engage and when to retreat. Instead they do as you say and throw their life forms away pointlessly. That isn't the game telling them to do that..that's lack of understanding how to play the game.
It makes sense for a game to penalize you losing your expensive equipment or lifeform. NS2 is a game that requires you to build resources to buy things to help you finish off the other team. You can't make those things unkillable or idiot friendly because then the really good players would go 100-0 in every game they play and you would create a even worse snowball affect the winning team has.
All that said, your suggestions I tend to agree with in part:
-I don't play onos but they do seem to die very quickly. I suspect this might be due to players buying them w/o upgrades though.
-Proto lab I should feel should stay on 1 cc but exos specifically should be moved to 2. Exos are pubbers kryptonite and its far too easy to get 4 of them in a group and completely wreck everything. They also allow for terrible turtles.
- Disagree with A3/W3 on 2cc. I used to want that but I don't feel its an issue any more. You want the marines to be able to come back if they can pull off the proper teamwork. Perhaps make a/w 3 not re searchable until 2nd cc is up but have them not lose it if the 2nd cc goes down. This would allow teams that had a chance to begin with have a chance to come back and now allow stupid turtles to teams that failed from the get go.
- agreed gl spam is too much. They are too easy to aquire and too powerfull. Blast radius should be reduced by like 25% and GL/Flame thrower should require to be researched.
I am pretty sure this is from over commitment rather than no upgrades.