All I'm getting is a headache from trying to understand why certain people are so bent out of shape over this.
That gif from Game of Thrones won the thread.
You have made your point. Everyone understands what you are trying to say. Many of us do not agree with you.
Stop now.
Why even bother having this discussion thread? Seems like only "nice job, looks great" posts are allowed. This is crazy. He's not allowed to edit your art to provide some possible alternatives?
In terms of censorship, where can you possibly go from here? DMCA takedowns maybe?
Why isn't having the opinion that the female marine has a man body allowed here?
If that's the case, then what is there to discuss? How great it looks?
To everyone saying his drawing isn't accurate to how females look, you might want to revisit the original, because it's no better. Check out that tiny girls head on a huge body.
Just close the thread at this point. It's clear discussion over whether or not it looks female enough isn't welcome.
No. He just loads some artwork from UWE in Photoshop and "draws" outlines over it. It was an early, out of proportion concept that got rejectet for a reason. (see the Lara progression from 1 to latest) I don't understand why you put so much efford in to making your point. You either need a girlfriend or you realy troll on purpous. It might sliped your attention, but they are texturing on the final. As if they would redo everything and start from scratch, because of some people who have clearly no sense for proportion or consitency of game design for that matter.
The ownership of a Wacom Tablet doesn't define you as an artist. It's your art that does.
so by giving the model NO chest what so ever, and no feminine hair, and no feminine proportions no guy could ever objectify her in any way, becouse it will essentially be a fricking MAN. good way to solve the balance then.
Wait... your hyper-sexualized creepy female marine was serious.. and not a joke?
HAHAHAHAHAHAH... HAHAHAhaHAHahaha... oh my that is terrible.
Oh geez. "They made it so you can't sexually objectify her? THEN WHAT'S THE POINT?? She might as well be just another dude!"
He's missing the point so hard, it reads like he's not even being sarcastic.
Why even bother having this discussion thread? Seems like only "nice job, looks great" posts are allowed. This is crazy. He's not allowed to edit your art to provide some possible alternatives?
In terms of censorship, where can you possibly go from here? DMCA takedowns maybe?
[Blablabla]
No, he just kept reposting the same... thing over and over again without saying anything else. There is absolutely no point unless you want to spam, look stupid or want to be banned. Other people argued about the skin and had no problem in return, but they did it in a good... or dare I say normal way. No stupid/sexist comments with nothing behind them.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@zali drop the victim card. You've been screaming murder ever since you signed up to these forums days ago.
Censorship occurs when content is blocked and hidden. Moderation occurs when you fail to deliver your content in a civil, and appropriate manner.
You can have your opinion all you want.
But if you can't understand how posting images (which we typically don't allow on the forums anyways) of "your version" of what you consider to be a female could be taken as sexist and chauvinistic - then you're missing the entire point of what UWE was going for, and also fail to understand how forums work.
Ah, great to see this model is finally in the game. Also thanks to all the socially awkward MRA folks for giving me something funny to read this fine day. The really poorly proportioned Barbie Doll Marine photoshop was probably my favorite
ironhorse i made a fanart in the beginning then tryed to explain myself. after editing an uncopyrighted image it got deleted so i made one 100% from the scratch and used the [ img ] code you have in this very post. what is the sexistic part? that i used the word chestarmor or breasts like 12 posts ago? is that not civil terms you may use on these forums?
Great job everyone at UWE. The female frontierswoman looks excellent. Of course in the end everyone will have slightly different opinions due to different tastes. Regardless I feel it fits perfectly and honestly I would have found it a bit odd if she looked much different. As someone said before, that line about one race getting a lot tougher, nice touch.
@RadimaX What is this argument about? Even if everyone disliked the female frontierswoman, I doubt UWE would redo all that hard work as it takes a considerable investment in time and money. ^_^ Lets make peace or argee to disagree and move on to something more constructive.
ironhorse i made a fanart in the beginning then tryed to explain myself. after editing an uncopyrighted image it got delted so i made one 100% from the scratch and used the [ img ] code you have in this very post. what is the sexistic part? that i used the word chestarmor or breasts? is that not civil terms you may use on the forums?
Because you're saying "girls should look like THIS." The female marine is a fighter, not just a girl. The focus should not be on how she looks. She doesn't need a curvy figure to one-shot skulks in the face with a shotgun, and making her curvy and good-looking because she's a girl is sexist.
You're basically saying, "this is how all girls are supposed to look," and that's wrong. The female body type is not, and should not be, held to any one restrictive standard of "what all girls look like." Some girls are curvier, or shorter, or more pear-shaped, than others. The female marine is bulky instead of curvy or skinny, because she's a warrior, not a model, and she's also muscular and dressed in very protective armor. Her bulkiness should be expected, under the circumstances.
Also, you should accept that the difference between men and women is not obvious when both are dressed in armor designed to defend against aliens with huge teeth and claws. This is as it should be. NS2 is a game about teamwork over individuality, and the new female marine design fits in beautifully with the rest of the game. Hopefully it'll also help female players be more easily accepted.
I've made my point, so I'm not going to keep replying.
This is actually a fascinating thread from a female perspective, and an interesting insight on people's opinions of female representation in the gaming world. If anyone is interested in reading about sexism/treatment towards females in games then this is good read http://flygirlgamers.com/game-on-ladies/ Unfortunately, as some people in this thread have shown, there are some narrow minded people out there. Thankfully, they seem to be the minority.
Still stand by my earlier post though, she looks great and fits into the NS2 world perfectly (imo).
To those who think a female soldier looks like a man because she wears heavy things: Are you serious? Women soldiers are... women, that's all. Some have small hips, are slim and some have large breast. Yeah, that's how women are shaped, and there's nothing sexist about that. I think what is really sexist is talking about sexism every time women shape subject is raised. Drop that "white knight attitude". That's at least suspect. Usually, the one screaming at the wolf have himself long teeth... And women don't need someone to protect them, except if you think they are fragile and unable to fight themselves. And then, you're more sexist than the one you're pointing at.
On average, women, soldiers or not, are more little than men and less muscular. Some are, of course, the opposite. Like some men are really feminine.
You know, in a few countries, military service is mandatory even for women. Going through their military service doesn't transform women into men.
And if military service is not mandatory, well, making a grunt female model is a waste of time, because women usually are really rare at the base fighting ranks, and more numerous in officers ranks (and non combat ranks like in air force).
Now, Radimax is wrong about his picture only because there's strictly no chance any army would make their stuff different for men and women. Too expensive for nothing.
Plus the psychologic impact. Yeah, and what follows may be sexist, but it's only scientific fact: when they see a wounded women, man are more likely to leave their position (and thus put their team in danger) than if it's a wounded man. Is it kind of atavistic reflex or cultural pressure, we don't know, but armies take it into account. That's one of the reasons why combat uniforms are completely similar for men and women.
Other than that, i really don't see anything wrong about that picture. That's not as if the woman was naked or if her breast was oversized like in some games. I think he put a lot of effort into it, and i don't see it as a pervert effort but as a game's fan effort.
Plus, no one took into account the immersion factor: which model would make a woman feel like she's herself into the game? The "manly" one or the more feminine one?
I'm not a woman, so i don't know. But i think it is completely sexist to decide instead of the women which model would be best for them.
I was going to post that I was annoyed about the forum bug with the thread not bumping to the top. Then I read some more posts and wish to see it get buried.
@zali drop the victim card. You've been screaming murder ever since you signed up to these forums days ago.
How about you drop the aggressive card, you're a moderator ffs. Yeah I get it, you're calling me out as a troll as I've noticed you do with everyone else who has a contrary opinion on here.
I don't care what your marine looks like in the end, I just a) think it looks like a dude, and b) people don't need to be ridiculously censored for sharing their vision of how a girl should look like a girl. These is absolutely nothing wrong with even being so blunt as to say that female characters should be sexy. This is a discussion about a game. People should be entitled to their opinions whether you like them or not. If you disagree then say so, you don't need to censor them. It's not sexist to suggest that a female character should have feminine traits.
I get that it isn't going to change UWEs final vision for the female marine, and I don't expect it to. I'm defending other people's right to "edit your images" etc/etc here, not advocating for change because I don't like it. I'm not even the victim here.
Even if RadimaX had posted the largest boobed almost naked female marine concept ever seen and said "here is how I think it should look", it's not suddenly sexist. It would certainly be unrealistic to expect something like that to influence the developers, but there is no reason why it couldn't be discussed by the community.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@zali
Calling you out on your obvious agenda of screaming "censoring is worse than cheating" and "mods are corrupt" is not aggression, its pointing out your agenda, and me saying give it a rest, you're being obvious, again is not aggression... But good job trying to villainize mods again, furthering your agenda..
Drop it.
No this isn't a discussion on what a female should look like - its a post showing up coming content from UWE and their reasoning behind it. Take your derailing controversial topic to the many other forums in here if you wish to pursue that course.
It's been said many times by other mods, but I'll say it again. These forums are not an image board, so expect any future image in this thread to be deleted.
Can't figure out why this was announced now. The RPS white knight-a-thon and #1ReasonWhy avalanche subsided 2 months ago. And any r/Games front page hype from beating the horse will have subsided long before this is actually implemented (2-3 months). Hopefully some people will actually still care when this is re announced and publicized a week before actual integration.
Um, it was announced now because now we finally had the art finalized enough to show it. The news post and the subsequent release of the actual model has nothing to do with the politics of the whole "female depiction in games" discussions, as that seems to be what you are implying. We have wanted to add female models to the game since the beginning, and we are finally getting to the point where they will be added, and the blog post was merely detailing our thought process behind the design.
Yeah, people are reading way too much into this. They had more important things to do and now they've finally gotten around to it, there's nothing more to it. I personally would have preferred the art team to be working on getting more maps done faster instead, but other people might feel different and they're entitled to get what they want too. I just never think about the gender of the person I'm trying to kill, but whatever, it's cool.
My only beef is that the default armor still looks cooler then the deluxe. Why the hell did I back early?
Yeah, people are reading way too much into this. They had more important things to do and now they've finally gotten around to it, there's nothing more to it. I personally would have preferred the art team to be working on getting more maps done faster instead, but other people might feel different and they're entitled to get what they want too. I just never think about the gender of the person I'm trying to kill, but whatever, it's cool.
My only beef is that the default armor still looks cooler then the deluxe. Why the hell did I back early?
you do release you can change your armour skins in options I have 3 to choose from
Um, it was announced now because now we finally had the art finalized enough to show it. The news post and the subsequent release of the actual model has nothing to do with the politics of the whole "female depiction in games" discussions, as that seems to be what you are implying. We have wanted to add female models to the game since the beginning, and we are finally getting to the point where they will be added, and the blog post was merely detailing our thought process behind the design.
Whilst I see that UWE never intended to open the can of "gender" worms (sounds gross), clearly it has been opened and I think the debate/discussion/views are great. I think it's good to get these things out in the open (allbetit the internet way). Embrace it! Thank you UWE for opening the discussion of gender into NS2
incognitoburrito i do not say: girls should look like THIS. im just comparing 2 shapes. i do not say they shouldnt look like uwe made it, only sharing my opinion that the version they have is a very toned down female that has the shape of a male. Some girls joining the army in the first place may look like that realisticly, but the game is not about realism in the end and there is no guidelines for how a fanart should or should not look like. and when i read wow the marine female with heavy armor looked like a man really? i know it was sarcastic but yes, really that is why i presented an female with the exact same heavy armor that did not look very manly. Maby i am the only one thinking this way but thinking differently should not result in banning or cencuring.
ironhorse: and "forums are not an image board" link me to the policy saying images in posts are restricted, well maby you have to add it in at first but think of all the ARTWORK forums, MAPPING forums and all the other posts that will NOT be allowed to post any images about the game, about its characters or weapns. no mods could ever shown and all that just so you can prove your power around here that you can delete any upcoming image that i post.
After 1000+ hours gameplay 1 dude randomly flags me, and i flag him back just some days ago...everscince your on a witchunt after me on whatever i write. After just posting 1 single image on this topic hugh wrote he will permanantly ban me forever and it was my first single and final warning?
for sharing my opinion and 1 use of [ i m g] really?
i can find you threds over 200+ images and you are bringing me down?
Mashup of another female character that shows the proportions are not that much off even when a fictional character dont have any actual proportions to go after becouse there is no guidelines for something non-existing, it dont have any place in the real world. it is a game. it is a drawing.
The "fan art" you posted is ridiculous. Why is she so top heavy? Also you people seem to think every girl on this planet is anorexic and a super model. If you want to see an attractive woman go watch some porn. Either way stop whining the female marine is here, and I couldn't be more excited.
Mashup of another female character that shows the proportions are not that much off even when a fictional character dont have any actual proportions to go after becouse there is no guidelines for something non-existing, it dont have any place in the real world. it is a game. it is a drawing.
I swear when you drew that outline you made the hips 1/3 smaller. That or I'm seeing some really wacky shit right now.
EDIT: You did base the outline on the metroid model right? Otherwise I'm not sure why it's there.
As an old timer... I think I speak for everybody when I say that it has been a long time coming for games to move forward with female and male body options as standard. Congratulations on the positive outcome of such hard work, and keep at it. I would love to see things get even bigger than they are for mah favourite game.
Ghosthree3 the outline is another fron view of samus where the legs are not crossed so its not the exact angles of the minature version on the left, but my female marine is not based on any character. i is just fictional. and in a fictional game i dont think the female must look and have 99% likeness off a real man fighting in the army. what makes people around here think that if her weist size is zero she would just die all the time, while if her weist size would be like a mans she would survive? Onoses kills 20 men in a row sometimes. Therefore her weist size is not relevant. i did not make it like this in the picture becouse "every female MUST look like this" as some in the forums claims i am trying to say. i did the female marine like this in the picture to give an visual overview on how a more female, female marine could look like. I could make a 300 pound version female marine but i dont see how that would look good in the game. But i think the female version i made looked good and i wanted to share the picture so people could decide for themselves. Developers spended months proparly finilizing the original and i tweaked and drew on some details in matter of hours on mine. so i dont expect it to be the best of anything. i am not picasso or an artis. i am just trying to show a less manly looking female.
not to be a sexual object becouse as you see she has a full body armor and helmet and barely the face showing in this version. if anything she should be less objectified becouse the hair in my version is covering her skin.
Great work guys, look great. Only thing I have a problem with was that most of your post detailing it turned your work into some kind of gender struggle for the equlization of humanity's perceived gender roles based on fictional, un-named, multiplayer frag characters and their clothing/appearance. If you're so hip, and forward thinking about the issues your product (appearantly) will cause in the eternal gender struggle I demamd that you also include gender neutral marines; of various variaties - so that people can better express themselves and that your game does not cause any issues and unfair representation due to "legitimate cultural influences." We don't want the world looking down on gender neutral people just bwcause of your game, do we?
Once again, great worl, I know a few female ms2 players that may possibly be excited for this. But as far as your crusade as a lefitimate cultural influence...
Comments
That gif from Game of Thrones won the thread.
Why even bother having this discussion thread? Seems like only "nice job, looks great" posts are allowed. This is crazy. He's not allowed to edit your art to provide some possible alternatives?
In terms of censorship, where can you possibly go from here? DMCA takedowns maybe?
That is comedy gold. Well done.
Why isn't having the opinion that the female marine has a man body allowed here?
If that's the case, then what is there to discuss? How great it looks?
To everyone saying his drawing isn't accurate to how females look, you might want to revisit the original, because it's no better. Check out that tiny girls head on a huge body.
Just close the thread at this point. It's clear discussion over whether or not it looks female enough isn't welcome.
The ownership of a Wacom Tablet doesn't define you as an artist. It's your art that does.
Oh geez. "They made it so you can't sexually objectify her? THEN WHAT'S THE POINT?? She might as well be just another dude!"
He's missing the point so hard, it reads like he's not even being sarcastic.
Censorship occurs when content is blocked and hidden. Moderation occurs when you fail to deliver your content in a civil, and appropriate manner.
You can have your opinion all you want.
But if you can't understand how posting images (which we typically don't allow on the forums anyways) of "your version" of what you consider to be a female could be taken as sexist and chauvinistic - then you're missing the entire point of what UWE was going for, and also fail to understand how forums work.
@RadimaX What is this argument about? Even if everyone disliked the female frontierswoman, I doubt UWE would redo all that hard work as it takes a considerable investment in time and money. ^_^ Lets make peace or argee to disagree and move on to something more constructive.
Because you're saying "girls should look like THIS." The female marine is a fighter, not just a girl. The focus should not be on how she looks. She doesn't need a curvy figure to one-shot skulks in the face with a shotgun, and making her curvy and good-looking because she's a girl is sexist.
You're basically saying, "this is how all girls are supposed to look," and that's wrong. The female body type is not, and should not be, held to any one restrictive standard of "what all girls look like." Some girls are curvier, or shorter, or more pear-shaped, than others. The female marine is bulky instead of curvy or skinny, because she's a warrior, not a model, and she's also muscular and dressed in very protective armor. Her bulkiness should be expected, under the circumstances.
Also, you should accept that the difference between men and women is not obvious when both are dressed in armor designed to defend against aliens with huge teeth and claws. This is as it should be. NS2 is a game about teamwork over individuality, and the new female marine design fits in beautifully with the rest of the game. Hopefully it'll also help female players be more easily accepted.
I've made my point, so I'm not going to keep replying.
Still stand by my earlier post though, she looks great and fits into the NS2 world perfectly (imo).
To those who think a female soldier looks like a man because she wears heavy things: Are you serious? Women soldiers are... women, that's all. Some have small hips, are slim and some have large breast. Yeah, that's how women are shaped, and there's nothing sexist about that. I think what is really sexist is talking about sexism every time women shape subject is raised. Drop that "white knight attitude". That's at least suspect. Usually, the one screaming at the wolf have himself long teeth... And women don't need someone to protect them, except if you think they are fragile and unable to fight themselves. And then, you're more sexist than the one you're pointing at.
On average, women, soldiers or not, are more little than men and less muscular. Some are, of course, the opposite. Like some men are really feminine.
You know, in a few countries, military service is mandatory even for women. Going through their military service doesn't transform women into men.
And if military service is not mandatory, well, making a grunt female model is a waste of time, because women usually are really rare at the base fighting ranks, and more numerous in officers ranks (and non combat ranks like in air force).
Now, Radimax is wrong about his picture only because there's strictly no chance any army would make their stuff different for men and women. Too expensive for nothing.
Plus the psychologic impact. Yeah, and what follows may be sexist, but it's only scientific fact: when they see a wounded women, man are more likely to leave their position (and thus put their team in danger) than if it's a wounded man. Is it kind of atavistic reflex or cultural pressure, we don't know, but armies take it into account. That's one of the reasons why combat uniforms are completely similar for men and women.
Other than that, i really don't see anything wrong about that picture. That's not as if the woman was naked or if her breast was oversized like in some games. I think he put a lot of effort into it, and i don't see it as a pervert effort but as a game's fan effort.
Plus, no one took into account the immersion factor: which model would make a woman feel like she's herself into the game? The "manly" one or the more feminine one?
I'm not a woman, so i don't know. But i think it is completely sexist to decide instead of the women which model would be best for them.
How about you drop the aggressive card, you're a moderator ffs. Yeah I get it, you're calling me out as a troll as I've noticed you do with everyone else who has a contrary opinion on here.
I don't care what your marine looks like in the end, I just a) think it looks like a dude, and b) people don't need to be ridiculously censored for sharing their vision of how a girl should look like a girl. These is absolutely nothing wrong with even being so blunt as to say that female characters should be sexy. This is a discussion about a game. People should be entitled to their opinions whether you like them or not. If you disagree then say so, you don't need to censor them. It's not sexist to suggest that a female character should have feminine traits.
I get that it isn't going to change UWEs final vision for the female marine, and I don't expect it to. I'm defending other people's right to "edit your images" etc/etc here, not advocating for change because I don't like it. I'm not even the victim here.
Even if RadimaX had posted the largest boobed almost naked female marine concept ever seen and said "here is how I think it should look", it's not suddenly sexist. It would certainly be unrealistic to expect something like that to influence the developers, but there is no reason why it couldn't be discussed by the community.
Calling you out on your obvious agenda of screaming "censoring is worse than cheating" and "mods are corrupt" is not aggression, its pointing out your agenda, and me saying give it a rest, you're being obvious, again is not aggression... But good job trying to villainize mods again, furthering your agenda..
Drop it.
No this isn't a discussion on what a female should look like - its a post showing up coming content from UWE and their reasoning behind it. Take your derailing controversial topic to the many other forums in here if you wish to pursue that course.
It's been said many times by other mods, but I'll say it again. These forums are not an image board, so expect any future image in this thread to be deleted.
My only beef is that the default armor still looks cooler then the deluxe. Why the hell did I back early?
you do release you can change your armour skins in options I have 3 to choose from
AmNunition?!
[edit]
Female Marine looks great. End of statement.
Whilst I see that UWE never intended to open the can of "gender" worms (sounds gross), clearly it has been opened and I think the debate/discussion/views are great. I think it's good to get these things out in the open (allbetit the internet way). Embrace it! Thank you UWE for opening the discussion of gender into NS2
ironhorse: and "forums are not an image board" link me to the policy saying images in posts are restricted, well maby you have to add it in at first but think of all the ARTWORK forums, MAPPING forums and all the other posts that will NOT be allowed to post any images about the game, about its characters or weapns. no mods could ever shown and all that just so you can prove your power around here that you can delete any upcoming image that i post.
After 1000+ hours gameplay 1 dude randomly flags me, and i flag him back just some days ago...everscince your on a witchunt after me on whatever i write. After just posting 1 single image on this topic hugh wrote he will permanantly ban me forever and it was my first single and final warning?
for sharing my opinion and 1 use of [ i m g] really?
i can find you threds over 200+ images and you are bringing me down?
are you saying women are fictional?
I swear when you drew that outline you made the hips 1/3 smaller. That or I'm seeing some really wacky shit right now.
EDIT: You did base the outline on the metroid model right? Otherwise I'm not sure why it's there.
not to be a sexual object becouse as you see she has a full body armor and helmet and barely the face showing in this version. if anything she should be less objectified becouse the hair in my version is covering her skin.
Once again, great worl, I know a few female ms2 players that may possibly be excited for this. But as far as your crusade as a lefitimate cultural influence...