Build 250 is now live on Steam! - Natural Selection 2

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  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Members Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Posts: 1,123
    YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS it's happened!!!!

    unknown worlds, you're the best.... i don't yet know if it will work in the long run, but the amount of effort you put into making such a daring/bold array of changes is astonishing. i personally loved balance test mod, the mod was leaps and bounds better than old vanilla, more fun, responsive and intuitive...

    unfortunately i'm super busy so i won't have a lot of time to play - but definitely gonna give it a spin when i have time :)
  • Mad selectionMad selection Members Join Date: 2013-01-01 Member: 176967Posts: 50
    edited June 2013
    Ok now for some constructive comment:

    I babysitted new players for the past few days which was probably the easiest way to get use to the new patch. I can understand when peoples say "it's better".

    The fact is that I prefered previous duels between marines and skulks. Was lasting longer, everything was less predetermined. Had more of a feeling of "natural selection. In short it's a question of mood in the end more then game mechanic.

    Now I love some of the new modifications like the skulk movement. It's just awesome. But ain't that this sort of change could have been implented in the previous version? Would have been good too.

    The fact that you have the potential to spawn so often in one game make that your less stressed about dying. The fear for your survival is usualy the main attraction in video games: you don't want to lose more then you want to blow shit up on your screen thus I had a serious loss of interest at first. I'm getting use to it but mhe, even if I think I sucked more at the previous version I still beleive I had more that gutt wrenching feeling that I was risking my hard invested time when I was going out of the base. Now it's like, ho everybody let's spamfest that area! Ho everybody! Look at that awesome dude getting a ridiculous amount of kills. Shits are so easy let's take an expresso while we look at him slaughtering skulks, gorges and lerks like there is no tomorrow. You get what I mean (hopefuly).

    For the rest the amelioration for the casual player is there. In the end I hope it will make ns2 more accessible since it's easier to get kills.

    I passed the last 2 days teaching the game all day long (my neck, a chiropractor and I'm waiting for chirurgy so yeah I'm *often* online these days lucky me) and they are having fun. I won't be bitching all the time to get the previous build back on but it would be nice to get a mod so we can benefit from the amazing potential of dreadful atmosphere this game can offer. Just saying. Everybody would be happy I think.
    RisingSun
  • peregrinusperegrinus Members Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Posts: 2,432 Fully active user
    Anyone else get tons of graphic glitches in Descent? Lots of missing textures, warped textures stretched out across the screen, walls missing so I can see through the whole map o.O

    geforce 560 ti
    xen32Frozen
  • CrazyTrexCrazyTrex Members Join Date: 2013-06-28 Member: 185764Posts: 1
    edited June 2013
    Main complaint is grenade launchers are getting rushed with a 15 res price tag they are cheaper to get over all then shotguns. They are being used at close range with little risk to marines using them. So if they kill a skulk and point blank range shouldn't the marine die too? For not having good positioning and letting the enemy get close they should be punished. At the moment they use it as a cheaper shotgun in many situations.

    Marines are jumping a lot more to dodge skulks. It appears that they are jumping farther then they used to making it hard for the skulks to hit the marines even at point blank range and the marines aim is still dead on. Meaning that a situation may change from in the skulks favor to the marines just because the marine is hitting the space bar. Possible limit on jumps in a short time frame to maybe 2-3.

    Gorge may be a little too cheap. With the 5 res for the gorge it means the gorge is spammed a little too much late and early game. Possible small price maybe to 7-8 res not major change but it would reduce the amount of times someone could play the gorge without having to conserve some res.

    Positive feedback:
    Really like the new skulk movement quite fun
    Marines getting to infinite sprint means faster movement early game
    New drifter building on aliens is a fun mechanic
    The biomass extra health means that smaller lifeforms like skulks scale better late game.
    Not needing specific hives to build crags shades and shifts means less meaning on starting hive.

    Overall I think these are pretty good changes but I feel that some things should be changed.
  • RabidWeaselRabidWeasel Members Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5337Posts: 955 Fully active user
    Early GLs are an issue but they are not low risk if you use them point blank, they do tons of self damage.
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call?Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,191 Fully active user
    I think the gorge is a symptom of a larger problem with alien ability to finish marines off. You absolutely NEED to spam gorges to break bases sometimes, as the fade cannot stop moving and the onos will get chased down and killed. Bile rushing is too necessary, imo. It should still be a valid tactic, it just shouldn't be the only valid tactic...
    For all your gorge busting needs.
    It is very strange how some1 who spend so much time makeing videos to help mans, can fall and take miror image of dark ages bourgeoisie, outdated set of belifs
    How True.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Members Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Posts: 1,123
    edited June 2013
    Roobubba wrote: »
    I think the gorge is a symptom of a larger problem with alien ability to finish marines off. You absolutely NEED to spam gorges to break bases sometimes, as the fade cannot stop moving and the onos will get chased down and killed. Bile rushing is too necessary, imo. It should still be a valid tactic, it just shouldn't be the only valid tactic...

    i sort of like that though... gives gorge an important role aside from being a healbot.

    gorge is like the classic RTS 'siege' unit along with the support unit rolled into one. it works better that way in my opinion.

    also, it's better for a game to have offensive gorges - instead of "nah, lets just spam fade/onos"
  • countbasiecountbasie Members Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Posts: 824
    I like the new Aliens. Fast and weak, hit and run. The Fade is awesome. Not as, but almost as good as NS1 Fade.

    Something happened to the marine movement though. It feels like they are always 20 inches ahead in close combat. It really is harder to hit them now.
    It's also easier to own as a marine. I think the marine movement should be nerfed a bit.

    All in all I'm pro 250. Good job.
    kalakuja
  • Evil.IguanaEvil.Iguana Members Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 166120Posts: 13
    It's only been out a few days so I can't say this definitively, but it seems like my initial impression that this would skew the balance towards marines was correct.
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Members Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Posts: 495 Advanced user
    It's only been out a few days so I can't say this definitively, but it seems like my initial impression that this would skew the balance towards marines was correct.

    My impression has been the opposite.

    Depends on your gaming peer group I guess.

    SupaDupaNoodle
    I'm a signature virus :D Copy me into your signature!
    (Ribo @ Jan 2 2013, 10:43 AM) wrote »
     ##EMPHASIS ADDED##
    Ok, here is the problem. Every game, the aliens,in a pack, harass the marines to slowdown resource captures. The aliens save up for invisible, double armor rhinos. Everyone evolves into an invisible double armor rhino. The marines lose.


    Also, a good rule of thumb is that a rookie is equivalent to an empty player slot on a team.

    delta78MrFangs
  • XariusXarius Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,207
    I can't help but think that most of the complaining here and elsewhere stems from people being naturally reluctant to accept major changes. I've worked on a major multiplayer mod in the past and I vividly recall the flood of negative comments every-time we put through a major change. Yet, in most cases, people eventually adapted and stopped talking about it altogether. I am sure the same will happen with this upgrade, so I do hope UWE hangs in there. This was surely to be expected at any rate.

    As far as I'm concerned, this is what NS 2 should have been like from release day and I suppose it's a little sad that we had to wait for over 6 months and spill so much virtual ink as a community just to get to that point... but let's not cry about spilt milk either.

    I'm glad it's finally here, it's a MASSIVE overhaul and certainly not something we should expect to occur often at all. The game is still far from perfect but I like to think at least that it took some significant strides in becoming deeper, easier to access and more balanced (on the core mechanics) through these changes. Not all of these things will be immediately apparent to the average player however, it's only after relearning some of the mechanics and further finetuning from UWE's side that it will become obvious how much of a difference 250 has truly made.
    Steamname: Unkn0wn Gamename: David Bowie
    KwisatzHaderach
  • spaztazcularspaztazcular Members Join Date: 2012-11-15 Member: 171595Posts: 10
    Overall I think the balance has been done better, but now its in favor of marines slightly. I haven't had any issues getting kills on marines as a skulk myself, but maybe making flamethrowers and GLs not having to be researched was a bad idea. I haven't played with the fade yet though, nor have I gotten a whole lot of playing time with it.
  • CrazyEddieCrazyEddie Members Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178196Posts: 657
    See, now THAT'S the way to do it.
  • KalopsiaKalopsia Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2003-05-15 Member: 16331Posts: 502 Advanced user
    Overall I'm happy with majority of the changes especially the skulk movement and the old school nostalgia of having to build 3 chambers to have the strongest upgrades.

    My only two frustrations are limiting the buildings aliens can have....Seriously wtf? I've hardly placed anything and already reach the limit. Then I have to wait 15 minutes for the crags, shifts and shade to move slower than a snails turd and eventually make it to the front line only to die because that battle ended 10 minutes ago.

    Other vent I have is now constantly wasting res on drifters so aliens can actually build stuff. Life span of a drifter would be about 2 minutes before you have to waste res on a new one. And now it you waste time focusing on moving them all the time to avoid marines killing them which results in less time managing/working with your team.I guess trying to force more players to gorge?

    Other than that the game play is still ok. No idea why so many changes were required, but i guess UWE would have their reasons.
    ns2_nothing remake Thread | Workshop
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  • snozysnozy Members Join Date: 2013-05-21 Member: 185318Posts: 21
    edited June 2013
    I think people are hating because it's part of our new culture to hate on the net. We're couch potatoes lol. We feel that hating makes a big difference in major decisions being made.

    To me, the more NS1 feel, the better!
  • MkilbrideMkilbride Members Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69952Posts: 428
    The game is now like Call of Duty. Good job.
    QUOTE
    GIGA
    ONOS
    BREAKER

    Yours is the axe that will pierce the vault of heaven!

    Onos Rider, I salute thee!


    Core i5 2500K @ 4.5GHZ, 8GB RAM 1866MHZ, GTX670 SLI OC'ed 30%(Increase Voltage), 128GB Samsung 830 SSD + 2 1TB HDDs.) Windows 7 64-bit Professional
    Minimum
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Posts: 1,037
    Mkilbride wrote: »
    The game is now like Call of Duty. Good job.

    In what way is it anything like Call of Duty?
    if it keeps on raining the levee's going to break
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Posts: 3,432 Advanced user
    Mkilbride wrote: »
    The game is now like Call of Duty. Good job.

    Dude what.
    76561197996992409.png
  • MrFangsMrFangs Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184474Posts: 313 Fully active user
    After playing quite a few rounds, I can say I'm really enjoying the new build. Strategic gameplay is a lot more fluid and diverse, and I've seen quite a few comebacks that weren't possible before. Good job UWE, especially Sewlek of course :)

    For me personally, the most important thing are the changes that have been made to the new alien movement. For example, I remember a BTM build a while ago where Skulk air control was near zero... I hated that, as it forced the Skulk to stick to the ground in CQC all the time. Now it's quite the opposite :-bd. Also, the "pseudo bhop" seems to be quite optional now. Not sure if there were actual changes lately, or if it was just a communication issue: "this is how you move now *pbhops away*". Overall, the new movement is not flawless, but I can live with Skulk and Fade quite fine. Haven't played much Lerk in 250, so I can't comment on that yet.

    Balance:
    - FT is OP (low-skill, high-reward)
    - GL is balanced against lifeforms (if a bit spammy)
    - GL is too strong against hives/bases with no alien counter
    - new Shotgun balance is great IMO

    Gameplay mechanics:
    - Without cloaked Drifters, alien recon is too lacking. Having Skulks and Lerks go scout is neither feasible nor interesting to play. Please give them ~90% camo again.
    - GL and FT should be separate tech unlocks again. Why remove a strategic decision from the game?
    - Researching lifeform abilities should happen in the hive again; doing it in structures is confusing and adds nothing to the game.
    - Infinite marine sprint gives too much mobility and seems out-of-place.
    - Self-welding is illogical as hell, but nice in practice.
    Salraine_Chi
  • MinimumMinimum Members Join Date: 2012-12-27 Member: 176382Posts: 56
    edited June 2013
    This rebalance is a joke, right? Because after my experience tonight I sure am laughing.

    Tonight marked the first time I played alien in 250, and boy was it bad.

    First off I get introduced to the new Skulk. First thing I notice is that it feels like a hoverboard. I don't even feel like I'm walking along the ground anymore. Second thing I notice is that there is almost no tactile responsiveness. Pre-BT Skulk had a very sharp responsiveness to your inputs. 250 Skulk handles like my 15 year old Grand Prix, and that's not a good thing.

    Then I go Fade, and 250 really rears its head. First thing I notice with Fade is the lack of Shadowstep (of course.) So instead of efficiently using my energy to get to my destination, I usually end up to my destination wheezing and coughing. Second thing is combat. I relied heavily on Shadowstep to counter and dodge enemy shots. Now that I'm stuck with Blink I can either choose to burn up 30% of my energy to dodge or run around like a chicken with their head chopped off swatting at the enemy. Fade, my favorite part of NS by far, is now rendered a cripple with an acute condition of asthma.

    I still ended up with 18-2 before calling it quits. That was only because the other team failed to research any armor (and probably weapons) tech until late into the game. Had they gone the appropriate tech path, I would have perished a lot sooner.

    I don't even know what to say. This is so far off the mark that I'm not even mad. I'm stunned. One update somehow managed to turn my 2012 GOTY up on its head. One update somehow managed to make Marines my favorite team to play. I loved playing Aliens because it was such a different and unique style of play. This is just like any other shooter now.
    Post edited by Minimum on
    IvantheDugtrio[Deleted User]Zomb3hSalraine_Chi
  • RabidWeaselRabidWeasel Members Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5337Posts: 955 Fully active user
    Here's your post: "I played 1 game, found that something had changed, tried to do what used to work, and then got frustrated that it felt crappy". The new mechanics are very simple and easy to learn, please do yourself a favour and do so.
    halfofaheavenKwisatzHaderachTaneBlarney_Stone
  • MrFangsMrFangs Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184474Posts: 313 Fully active user
    Minimum wrote: »
    First then I notice with Fade is the lack of Shadowstep (of course.) So instead of efficiently using my energy to get to my destination, I usually end up to my destination wheezing and coughing.
    The new energy-efficient movement is jump, briefly Blink while in the air, then hold the jump key each time before you land again. Repeat the Blink boost as necessary.
    Second thing is combat. I relied heavily on Shadowstep to counter and dodge enemy shots. Now that I'm stuck with Blink I can either choose to burn up 30% of my energy to dodge or run around like a chicken with their head chopped off swatting at the enemy.
    You realize that SS isn't gone? They just switched places, alien comm needs to research SS now. And of course, to be a "complete" Fade, you need both... Fade wasn't complete without Blink in pre-250 either. So it pretty much evens out.
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call?Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,191 Fully active user
    MrFangs wrote: »
    Minimum wrote: »
    First then I notice with Fade is the lack of Shadowstep (of course.) So instead of efficiently using my energy to get to my destination, I usually end up to my destination wheezing and coughing.
    The new energy-efficient movement is jump, briefly Blink while in the air, then hold the jump key each time before you land again. Repeat the Blink boost as necessary.
    Second thing is combat. I relied heavily on Shadowstep to counter and dodge enemy shots. Now that I'm stuck with Blink I can either choose to burn up 30% of my energy to dodge or run around like a chicken with their head chopped off swatting at the enemy.
    You realize that SS isn't gone? They just switched places, alien comm needs to research SS now. And of course, to be a "complete" Fade, you need both... Fade wasn't complete without Blink in pre-250 either. So it pretty much evens out.

    Well that's the basic fade movement, but isn't very energy efficient as you need to add in a/d pseudobunnyhop for that. And shadowstep doesn't maintain its momentum (preserves previous momentum with a harsh dampener), so is not particularly useful for any movement outside of combat. I've not mastered its use in combat yet, but I'm sure some pro fades in here can attest to its value.

    I take back what I said before about the fade Nerf. If people were playing old fade like minimum described then it clearly was a necessary change...
    For all your gorge busting needs.
    It is very strange how some1 who spend so much time makeing videos to help mans, can fall and take miror image of dark ages bourgeoisie, outdated set of belifs
    How True.
  • MrFangsMrFangs Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184474Posts: 313 Fully active user
    Roobubba wrote: »
    MrFangs wrote: »
    The new energy-efficient movement is jump, briefly Blink while in the air, then hold the jump key each time before you land again. Repeat the Blink boost as necessary.
    Well that's the basic fade movement, but isn't very energy efficient as you need to add in a/d pseudobunnyhop for that.
    The way I understand it, you only need that for tight corners? I haven't systematically tested it enough to know where the limit is. But it seems that with Blink-jump-chaining, and only strafing "into" corners, I can get around maps quite fast without wasting a lot of energy. No doubt there's still room for improvement.

    On a related note, I find it telling how much uncertainty there is about the necessity for pseudo-bhop, even amongst fairly experienced players (e.g., here and here). IMO, this shows how inaccessible this mechanic is, if even experienced players can't figure it out from just playing the game.

    If you only need curve strafing to maintain your speed, why have this manual strafe mechanic in the first place? Why not make it so you don't ever lose speed, as long as you turn gently? As I mentioned in another post already, the strafing is just added interface complexity, not gameplay depth. And that's the opposite of how it should be.

    (I don't mind the small pbhop speed gain for those who like it, btw... Just remove the speed loss penalty so it's not mandatory.)
  • ezayezay Members Join Date: 2013-03-11 Member: 183899Posts: 110
    UWE killed fades.

    I don't care about everything else, this ruined the game for me. Fades went from silent deadly monsters to sac of potatoes.

    Bring me old fade or I'm done with the game. :/
    Zomb3hMinimum
  • KwisatzHaderachKwisatzHaderach Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143872Posts: 368 Fully active user
    Mkilbride wrote: »
    The game is now like Call of Duty. Good job.

    Not sure if I should flag or awesome this post...
    Inzann
  • KwisatzHaderachKwisatzHaderach Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143872Posts: 368 Fully active user
    Minimum wrote: »
    Then I go Fade, and 250 really rears it's head. First then I notice with Fade is the lack of Shadowstep (of course.) So instead of efficiently using my energy to get to my destination, I usually end up to my destination wheezing and coughing. Second thing is combat. I relied heavily on Shadowstep to counter and dodge enemy shots. Now that I'm stuck with Blink I can either choose to burn up 30% of my energy to dodge or run around like a chicken with their head chopped off swatting at the enemy. Fade, my favorite part of NS by far, is now rendered a cripple with an acute condition of asthma.

    I still ended up with 18-2 before calling it quits.

    As has been pointed out, you're using blink the wrong way. It was a viable option to go celerity fade before the patch and it still is. I never run out of energy, even without adren. Just tap blink every few seconds, bhop and don't engage in combat for longer than a few milliseconds until shadowstep is researched. Once SS is out the only thing the fade can't do anymore is double jump. Instead he's now much faster and much easier to maneuver around the map.

    Also, because you had to throw in your (adorable, bet it was on a rookie server) K/D. Fade is anti-marine still, but not so much in the killing bussiness than in the wounding business now. When I play fade without SS I usualy blink in get one or two swipes in while the marines try to adjust their aim on me and let a skulk or lerk do the rest while the marines are distracted. So my K/D has gone down, but my overal effectiveness hasn't.
    CrazyEddie
  • EucomolhamasEucomolhamas Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-03-10 Member: 183841Posts: 120 Advanced user
    I have one question to ask: What is the purpose of that "hold space to bounce" mechanic? I haven't seen any difference in doing it and normally jumping when you hit the ground, other than it feels awkward and unnatural.

    So, any ideas why it was even implemented when it really has no apparent purpose?
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