So my suggestion is to gate one of those weapons to advanced armory separate from the GL/FT research, and balance the weapon that remains on the base armory as a midgame choice. PRes costs also need to be adjusted accordingly for the timing they will occur and also to prevent JP + "hmg" being the 100% go to all the time. Exos still need to be a viable choice.
This is a fantastic idea, we would then either have a mid-strength HMG or the current shotgun as our midgame weapon with a beastly HMG or op hardhitting shotgun as end game jp tech. The HMG would seem the more natural choice as the lategame weapon since it would give a good combination of role coverage with the other advanced weapons, plus it would be less gamechanging than moving the shotgun, which has been the midgame weapon of choice for the entire lifespan of NS1+2, to a later tech.
Of course there are likely to be issues balancing this with JP+HMG probably being straight up better than exos as well as being super versatile against everything, the exact reason the HMG was removed in the first place.
I'd personally like to see some variation. Something like an automatic nail gun-ish (accurate, medium rate of fire) projectile weapon that does heavy damage. [other suggestions welcome]
But if we can't find an alternative an HMG clone works I suppose.
I too think that NS could benefit from adding a projectile-based weapon. I think it could be something simialr to the Doom 3's Plasma Gun - medium fire rate, medium speed projectiles with solid single target damage. Easy to hit large targets but the hit delay would make the weapon unreliable against smaller enemies. Still, with good prediction skill, an experienced player should be able to defend himself at close range.
So for the less skilled Marines it would generally be an anti-Onos gun. However, it would also offer great potential for skill improvement, that would make it an interesting all-around weapon with completely unique style of aiming. Fighting with and against a projectile-based weapon would require a new set of skills, making the combat deeper and more interesting for both sides.
There are some great suggestions here, and I don't want to detract from those, but wanted to throw some extra things in the mix for reworking.
Vortex is currently still pointless.
Supporting with the new lerk is extremely risky and not worth the expense.
Shadowstep maybe needs some tweaking? Energy cost very high and it does bad things to momentum.
I haven't seen xeno used out of combat mod for aaaaaaages. Is it so good it had to wait for biomass level 9? Really?
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Un-chained CCs is interesting, reminds me a bit of NS1. Just for fun, make it so aliens can place a hive anywhere. It'd probably be completely imbalanced and game breaking, but hey, its a beta test right?
Un-chained CCs is interesting, reminds me a bit of NS1. Just for fun, make it so aliens can place a hive anywhere. It'd probably be completely imbalanced and game breaking, but hey, its a beta test right?
That would remove the requirement for aliens to expand. They could get all their tech in a single Hive room. Unless you introduce some kind of requirement like a minimum distance to other Hives. But in the end were NS2 maps and their rooms simply designed around having the tech points in specific locations. It would seem completely odd to have Hives anywhere else.
I really hope you take some steps to prolong the early game. It was pretty great at one point in the BT, at 15 t.res for extractors but with the current 8 t.res extractors and marine TP untying it feels like the mid-late game comes much faster.
There's so many reasons to opt for a longer early game and increasing the duration of the early game does in no way necessarily prolong the overall game lenght.
Also, can we please have a proper look at sentries already? The NS 1 sentries with the build cap system would work fine.
I guess with the "you can build a CC anywhere" thing does the 2-CC-requirement for Dual Exos seem kind of obsolete, since you can just plant another right in your base. Or does it have to be a second CC on a TP for that?
All what the rule really allows is to make something like a forward spawn base in places like Nanogrid (that you can also beacon to!).
It's probably awesome in terms of additional strategies, but I really hope there will be some added regulations so that you still have the need to expand properly.
Dual Exos should still require a second CC on another tech point or at least a CC that needs to be a certain distance away from an existing one and definitely not in the same room.
I'd also like to see the Supply Cap being partly tied to TP control again. Make it 100 Supply by default and add 50 for every TP under your team's control, so aliens end up with 300 at 4 Hives and marines have a reason to expand and can't afford Sentry spam in every room at just 1 CC. The control over territory should dictate how much equipment you can afford to hold that territory.
CCs not on tech points are "gypsies". They're cheap, they build fast, they have low armor/health. They provide power for nearby structures. Any nearby IPs have their spawn times cut in half. And five minutes after being built, THEY SELF-DESTRUCT.
If you have two or more TPs, you can't build a gypsy CC. If you have only one TP, you can have one gypsy. If you have zero TPs, you can have two gypsies.
I'd also like to see the Supply Cap being partly tied to TP control again. The control over territory should dictate how much equipment you can afford to hold that territory.
Res already fulfills that function. Putting supply in the same boat would make snowballing worse, and NS2 still needs less early- and mid-game snowballing.
I'd personally like to see some variation. Something like an automatic nail gun-ish (accurate, medium rate of fire) projectile weapon that does heavy damage. [other suggestions welcome]
But if we can't find an alternative an HMG clone works I suppose.
I too think that NS could benefit from adding a projectile-based weapon. I think it could be something simialr to the Doom 3's Plasma Gun - medium fire rate, medium speed projectiles with solid single target damage. Easy to hit large targets but the hit delay would make the weapon unreliable against smaller enemies. Still, with good prediction skill, an experienced player should be able to defend himself at close range.
So for the less skilled Marines it would generally be an anti-Onos gun. However, it would also offer great potential for skill improvement, that would make it an interesting all-around weapon with completely unique style of aiming. Fighting with and against a projectile-based weapon would require a new set of skills, making the combat deeper and more interesting for both sides.
I was looking in the code, and I saw stuff for nerve gas gun, don't know if that is new or old. That wouldbe an antionos gun, and would be an interesting twist on the game.
OP is awesome, just wanna say that I didn't know it was his hard work that made NS2 so much better!! I can't wait for maps to be balanced with the new changes! AND MORE NEW MAPS TOO!!! Bring NS1 maps over here! and add vent/door welding!!
Well what exactly is wrong with those other than that they were in ns1 ?
No problem with HMG.
Disconnected CCs seems a bit odd for NS2 though. Primarily because the design of all of the maps and the entire concept of tech points is based around the idea of a 4-5 fixed potential bases.
Maps may be designed to work with a TP system, but it doesn't mean they don't necessarily work with disconnected CC's. The only thing you'll see is aliens potentially with 4 hives in some silly pub game and that is neither a big concern or anything different from current ns2.
I personally hope game design keeps steering away from 2nd CC/turtle etc. It also never made much sense to me keeping the multiple CC concept around long after the multiple commander concept was left dead in the water.
I don't really see the need for disconnected CCs, relocates were fun back in the day but I really don't think that NS2 needs them. I would be concerned that it might cause balance issues on some maps which haven't been designed with the idea that marines can relocate (and put IPs) anywhere they can quickly reach.
E:
Since Sewlek asked for ideas, here's a random concept I just thought up for something to replace cara to try and make it useful-but-not-too-good for all lifeforms instead of being uber for skulks and kind of weak for everything else.
Ablation:
Basically it's a temporary damage shield that drops once you take a certain amount of damage. Reduces damage by X% as long as it's active, and it wears off as soon as you drop below Y% of max hp (set on a per lifeform basis). Regenerates itself once you're at full hp and haven't taken damage for a few seconds (this is so you can't have it up permanently with a gorge or something).
Advantages over cara: Designed to be most effective against weapons that hit really hard in 1 shot, (i.e. grenades, shotguns) giving burst damage survivability (esp for skulk and lerk) without needing to just straight up give lifeforms a huge chunk of additional armour in order to be useful. (slightly) More interesting than just "more hp". EHP gain against sustained damage weapons is very predictable, so in that sense it's not that different from carapace.
Downsides: more complex than other upgrades, maybe works a bit too much like a temporary personal umbra, might still be hard to balance it between being effectively required and not really worth it. Would need a new UI element or similar in order to indicate to the player that ablation is up. Falls foul to "no magic numbers" though it can be communicated to the player through the UI.
I don't really see the need for disconnected CCs, relocates were fun back in the day but I really don't think that NS2 needs them. I would be concerned that it might cause balance issues on some maps which haven't been designed with the idea that marines can relocate (and put IPs) anywhere they can quickly reach.
E:
Since Sewlek asked for ideas, here's a random concept I just thought up for something to replace cara to try and make it useful-but-not-too-good for all lifeforms instead of being uber for skulks and kind of weak for everything else.
Ablation:
Basically it's a temporary damage shield that drops once you take a certain amount of damage. Reduces damage by X% as long as it's active, and it wears off as soon as you drop below Y% of max hp (set on a per lifeform basis). Regenerates itself once you're at full hp and haven't taken damage for a few seconds (this is so you can't have it up permanently with a gorge or something).
Advantages over cara: Designed to be most effective against weapons that hit really hard in 1 shot, (i.e. grenades, shotguns) giving burst damage survivability (esp for skulk and lerk) without needing to just straight up give lifeforms a huge chunk of additional armour in order to be useful. (slightly) More interesting than just "more hp". EHP gain against sustained damage weapons is very predictable, so in that sense it's not that different from carapace.
Downsides: more complex than other upgrades, maybe works a bit too much like a temporary personal umbra, might still be hard to balance it between being effectively required and not really worth it. Would need a new UI element or similar in order to indicate to the player that ablation is up. Falls foul to "no magic numbers" though it can be communicated to the player through the UI.
As a man who loves carapace alternatives I'll add: This not only needs to be communicated to the player using the upgrade but the marines fighting against it. At the very least there needs to be a sound effect when hit to let the marine know that the upgrade was triggered else you will see a lot of frustration similar to feign death in the beta.
edit: I'd also like to chime in on disconnected CCs. While its a fun idea and there was tons of unique things to do with it in NS1 at this point in NS2 it is a bit problematic. The biggest reason has already been stated, in that the maps in NS2 were not made with this in mind so it will cause more balance issues than intended. The second is the change in game design itself. Denying hives is as important as ever and to keep the game intuitive to the idea of denying alien techpoints, I don't think this is a good idea. More depth and skill can still be added elsewhere. If we were still in full on beta I would be more inclined to want to test this but at this stage personally don't think this has a place based on other design decisions. YMMV.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
How about this:
CCs not on tech points are "gypsies". They're cheap, they build fast, they have low armor/health. They provide power for nearby structures. Any nearby IPs have their spawn times cut in half. And five minutes after being built, THEY SELF-DESTRUCT.
If you have two or more TPs, you can't build a gypsy CC. If you have only one TP, you can have one gypsy. If you have zero TPs, you can have two gypsies.
It should be this:
Non-tech point CCs have 1\2 the normal health. And you have to have a CC on a second tech point to get dualies. That's it.
I'd like to get rid of sprint. One of the alien's advantages (I thought at least) was supposed to be their superior mobility. This doesn't exist when marines can perma-sprint (or sprint at all imho).
With hand-grenades presumably coming back, removing sprint would be a viable option, in light of extractor harassment for aliens.
It'd be bad enough that the Marines can get to an extractor quickly AND have a proper means of dispatching aliens from it with hand-grenades.
My earlier suggestion about disconnected CCs avoids the "maps were designed for CCs on TPs" problem.
My suggestion makes them less like bases or territory control points and more like forward assault staging areas (in early and mid-game) or last-ditch hail-mary comeback plays (in late-game). Both of those are good things to add to the game, although of course they're purely marine-sided advantages and so will need something offsetting to maintain balance. Neither one disturbs map design, since both are roles already played (less interestingly) by phase gates.
I'm not suggesting this for the mod, just wondering what happened to the idea of having hives built anywhere in the early days of ns2 development? Was it tried out in the alpha?
Feature suggestion: Drifters can keep a structure that is off infestation longer (not infinitely) alive with their "growing" functionality. That would work around the possible frustration of losing an RT that is off infestation and has less than 14% of it's HP remaining because the infestation wouldn't grow fast enough.
If we're battling over the untethered CC placement and balance/information, why not have a structure, the MCC (Mobile Comm Chair) or something, that is NOT a full CC, but
- allows the placement of up to 2 IPs in a smaller range
- Can be used by the commander, but has less HP/armor than a standard CC, and IPs MUST be in its smaller range to function
- If it is destroyed, area IPs shut down due to no communication with main tech point.
- Can only allow certain upgrades (no proto drops, or robotics factory), requiring a main tech point CC for full advancement.
Use the NS1 CC as the model. This would allow quick comebacks, initial relocations for strategy, etc, which I miss most from NS1 marines strats, but it still forces you to rely on NS2 tech points to truly tech all the way.
I do not see how this would work. By the time you get a second drifter over to the attacked RT (assuming the marines killed the first drifter in that location), you could have already put a cyst down with a mist and saved it. If the RT is at like <10% health after the engagement, its going to die no matter what.
Also @sewlek, you should just make your own forum section for BT. Maybe under the Vet section along with Competitive and Internal. Just a thought. :P
CCs not on tech points are "gypsies". They're cheap, they build fast, they have low armor/health. They provide power for nearby structures. Any nearby IPs have their spawn times cut in half. And five minutes after being built, THEY SELF-DESTRUCT.
If you have two or more TPs, you can't build a gypsy CC. If you have only one TP, you can have one gypsy. If you have zero TPs, you can have two gypsies.
Why are people so desperate to make such drastic changes to how the game works? And why does UWE acquiesce to this and similar nonsensical whimsical frivolities? The game is released. Stop messing about with it. "Balance test," more like "Experimental modification" should be done in preparation for NS3, not changing a game that is out of alpha, or is that what I'm missing?
CCs not on tech points are "gypsies". They're cheap, they build fast, they have low armor/health. They provide power for nearby structures. Any nearby IPs have their spawn times cut in half. And five minutes after being built, THEY SELF-DESTRUCT.
If you have two or more TPs, you can't build a gypsy CC. If you have only one TP, you can have one gypsy. If you have zero TPs, you can have two gypsies.
Why are people so desperate to make such drastic changes to how the game works? And why does UWE acquiesce to this and similar nonsensical whimsical frivolities? The game is released. Stop messing about with it. "Balance test," more like "Experimental modification" should be done in preparation for NS3, not changing a game that is out of alpha, or is that what I'm missing?
This is so the game can have more content in but when implemented, is balanced and works well with the rest of the features of the game.
Comments
This is a fantastic idea, we would then either have a mid-strength HMG or the current shotgun as our midgame weapon with a beastly HMG or op hardhitting shotgun as end game jp tech. The HMG would seem the more natural choice as the lategame weapon since it would give a good combination of role coverage with the other advanced weapons, plus it would be less gamechanging than moving the shotgun, which has been the midgame weapon of choice for the entire lifespan of NS1+2, to a later tech.
Of course there are likely to be issues balancing this with JP+HMG probably being straight up better than exos as well as being super versatile against everything, the exact reason the HMG was removed in the first place.
I too think that NS could benefit from adding a projectile-based weapon. I think it could be something simialr to the Doom 3's Plasma Gun - medium fire rate, medium speed projectiles with solid single target damage. Easy to hit large targets but the hit delay would make the weapon unreliable against smaller enemies. Still, with good prediction skill, an experienced player should be able to defend himself at close range.
So for the less skilled Marines it would generally be an anti-Onos gun. However, it would also offer great potential for skill improvement, that would make it an interesting all-around weapon with completely unique style of aiming. Fighting with and against a projectile-based weapon would require a new set of skills, making the combat deeper and more interesting for both sides.
Vortex is currently still pointless.
Supporting with the new lerk is extremely risky and not worth the expense.
Shadowstep maybe needs some tweaking? Energy cost very high and it does bad things to momentum.
I haven't seen xeno used out of combat mod for aaaaaaages. Is it so good it had to wait for biomass level 9? Really?
I'm sure there's more but that will do for now.
That would remove the requirement for aliens to expand. They could get all their tech in a single Hive room. Unless you introduce some kind of requirement like a minimum distance to other Hives. But in the end were NS2 maps and their rooms simply designed around having the tech points in specific locations. It would seem completely odd to have Hives anywhere else.
There's so many reasons to opt for a longer early game and increasing the duration of the early game does in no way necessarily prolong the overall game lenght.
Also, can we please have a proper look at sentries already? The NS 1 sentries with the build cap system would work fine.
All what the rule really allows is to make something like a forward spawn base in places like Nanogrid (that you can also beacon to!).
It's probably awesome in terms of additional strategies, but I really hope there will be some added regulations so that you still have the need to expand properly.
Dual Exos should still require a second CC on another tech point or at least a CC that needs to be a certain distance away from an existing one and definitely not in the same room.
I'd also like to see the Supply Cap being partly tied to TP control again. Make it 100 Supply by default and add 50 for every TP under your team's control, so aliens end up with 300 at 4 Hives and marines have a reason to expand and can't afford Sentry spam in every room at just 1 CC. The control over territory should dictate how much equipment you can afford to hold that territory.
CCs not on tech points are "gypsies". They're cheap, they build fast, they have low armor/health. They provide power for nearby structures. Any nearby IPs have their spawn times cut in half. And five minutes after being built, THEY SELF-DESTRUCT.
If you have two or more TPs, you can't build a gypsy CC. If you have only one TP, you can have one gypsy. If you have zero TPs, you can have two gypsies.
I was looking in the code, and I saw stuff for nerve gas gun, don't know if that is new or old. That wouldbe an antionos gun, and would be an interesting twist on the game.
I think I'd prefer it if NS2 was improved without necessarily turning it into NS1:HD
Disconnected CCs seems a bit odd for NS2 though. Primarily because the design of all of the maps and the entire concept of tech points is based around the idea of a 4-5 fixed potential bases.
I personally hope game design keeps steering away from 2nd CC/turtle etc. It also never made much sense to me keeping the multiple CC concept around long after the multiple commander concept was left dead in the water.
E:
Since Sewlek asked for ideas, here's a random concept I just thought up for something to replace cara to try and make it useful-but-not-too-good for all lifeforms instead of being uber for skulks and kind of weak for everything else.
Ablation:
Basically it's a temporary damage shield that drops once you take a certain amount of damage. Reduces damage by X% as long as it's active, and it wears off as soon as you drop below Y% of max hp (set on a per lifeform basis). Regenerates itself once you're at full hp and haven't taken damage for a few seconds (this is so you can't have it up permanently with a gorge or something).
Advantages over cara: Designed to be most effective against weapons that hit really hard in 1 shot, (i.e. grenades, shotguns) giving burst damage survivability (esp for skulk and lerk) without needing to just straight up give lifeforms a huge chunk of additional armour in order to be useful. (slightly) More interesting than just "more hp". EHP gain against sustained damage weapons is very predictable, so in that sense it's not that different from carapace.
Downsides: more complex than other upgrades, maybe works a bit too much like a temporary personal umbra, might still be hard to balance it between being effectively required and not really worth it. Would need a new UI element or similar in order to indicate to the player that ablation is up. Falls foul to "no magic numbers" though it can be communicated to the player through the UI.
As a man who loves carapace alternatives I'll add: This not only needs to be communicated to the player using the upgrade but the marines fighting against it. At the very least there needs to be a sound effect when hit to let the marine know that the upgrade was triggered else you will see a lot of frustration similar to feign death in the beta.
edit: I'd also like to chime in on disconnected CCs. While its a fun idea and there was tons of unique things to do with it in NS1 at this point in NS2 it is a bit problematic. The biggest reason has already been stated, in that the maps in NS2 were not made with this in mind so it will cause more balance issues than intended. The second is the change in game design itself. Denying hives is as important as ever and to keep the game intuitive to the idea of denying alien techpoints, I don't think this is a good idea. More depth and skill can still be added elsewhere. If we were still in full on beta I would be more inclined to want to test this but at this stage personally don't think this has a place based on other design decisions. YMMV.
It should be this:
Non-tech point CCs have 1\2 the normal health. And you have to have a CC on a second tech point to get dualies. That's it.
With hand-grenades presumably coming back, removing sprint would be a viable option, in light of extractor harassment for aliens.
It'd be bad enough that the Marines can get to an extractor quickly AND have a proper means of dispatching aliens from it with hand-grenades.
My suggestion makes them less like bases or territory control points and more like forward assault staging areas (in early and mid-game) or last-ditch hail-mary comeback plays (in late-game). Both of those are good things to add to the game, although of course they're purely marine-sided advantages and so will need something offsetting to maintain balance. Neither one disturbs map design, since both are roles already played (less interestingly) by phase gates.
- allows the placement of up to 2 IPs in a smaller range
- Can be used by the commander, but has less HP/armor than a standard CC, and IPs MUST be in its smaller range to function
- If it is destroyed, area IPs shut down due to no communication with main tech point.
- Can only allow certain upgrades (no proto drops, or robotics factory), requiring a main tech point CC for full advancement.
Use the NS1 CC as the model. This would allow quick comebacks, initial relocations for strategy, etc, which I miss most from NS1 marines strats, but it still forces you to rely on NS2 tech points to truly tech all the way.
Meanwhile, shotgun rate of fire is increased further.
Edit: Oh, AOE Stomp is op. Make jetpacks invulnerable even while on the ground.
Also @sewlek, you should just make your own forum section for BT. Maybe under the Vet section along with Competitive and Internal. Just a thought. :P
Why are people so desperate to make such drastic changes to how the game works? And why does UWE acquiesce to this and similar nonsensical whimsical frivolities? The game is released. Stop messing about with it. "Balance test," more like "Experimental modification" should be done in preparation for NS3, not changing a game that is out of alpha, or is that what I'm missing?
This is so the game can have more content in but when implemented, is balanced and works well with the rest of the features of the game.