Death to the Kharamander

hf_hf_ Join Date: 2011-06-10 Member: 103639Members
edited June 2013 in NS2 General Discussion
I know pre-launch this topic was discussed ad nauseum, but I think it's time to revisit with all of the "Balance Test" changes floating around. If you want a truly asymmetrical experience, it's time to get rid of the alien commander.

It never really made sense, and it seems all of the balance efforts recently have gone into reworking how the alien side works -- obviously since aliens acquire team res, they need to spend it on something, so UWE keeps rethinking the upgrade path for the aliens, what the kharamander does and how he/she influences the game, etc. At first it was a "cosmic gardener", but now the Balance Test changes requires much more micromanaging from the alien side, and the whole biomass thing is overly complicated and doesn't make any sense.

Removing the kharamander will simplify alien gameplay and work within the tenets of Natural Selection being an asymmetrical game, in addition to heightening the role and importance of the gorge, which I believe will bring better balance to the game (less aliens out on the field harassing marine shit).

This would also mean axing cysts. Alien structures would no longer require infestation to build on, but once the structures are built, infestation sprouts out from them, infecting nearby areas. This would alert marines as to when an alien base is present or nearby. This would also eliminate the annoyance of cyst building wars, where marines are constantly killing cysts, and kharamanders are constantly rebuilding them.

Comments

  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    You can always play the ns2:classic mod
  • RisingSunRisingSun Rising California Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    It would be awesome but wont happen =(
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Join Date: 2013-05-09 Member: 185176
    Well OK but how should Aliens keep a good overwiev over the map and what´s happening? Maybe Marines are automaticly spottet if an Alien in Alienvision sees him?
    You should also think about, how Aliens would do tech and especially how to use the specific structureabillities(Ink against arcs)
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    How is Biomass overly complicated and doesn't make any sense? If anything it makes the current upgrade progress more transparent to the rest of the team.
  • Apollo10000Apollo10000 Join Date: 2013-03-02 Member: 183582Members
    edited June 2013
    Discowitz wrote: »
    Well OK but how should Aliens keep a good overwiev over the map and what´s happening? Maybe Marines are automaticly spottet if an Alien in Alienvision sees him?
    You should also think about, how Aliens would do tech and especially how to use the specific structureabillities(Ink against arcs)

    I'm guessing you didn't play NS1, which had no Alien commander, in all honesty the aliens never missed a commander, the gorge filled the role much better, laying down upgrades and structures.

    Also about overlay vision, it's not that useful, because like any person you have your figure planted on the map button, which allows you to see the whole map in one go.

    Also biomass is piss easy, it's used to unlock upgrades... simple, unless you come from a non strategy gaming experience, though still pretty easy to understand.
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    It would also appear to me that some of the new changes to kham, like the different mists and drifter management are to indeed give the khammander even more of a unique/engaging role. gorging in ns1 was definitely fun and dare I say more rewarding, but ultimately, they are different games. not to mention the amount of pres it'd take up build all the structures in ns2, one gorge would not suffice. Aliens would be hurting for res without the addition of tres/kham.
  • IndustryIndustry Esteemed Gentleman Join Date: 2010-07-13 Member: 72344Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited June 2013
    Funny you mention the bt mod, since I feel it finally has brought the khamm to a good place, otherwise I think it would be worth discussion.

    Also funny how a concept's implementation can make or break it
  • hf_hf_ Join Date: 2011-06-10 Member: 103639Members
    Biomass seems like it would be terribly unintuitive to new players. Lifeform abilities were randomly assigned to structures (although, to be fair, whoever did this did their best to have it make some sense), which are unlocked by clicking a button on the hive multiple times, and adding more hives allows you to click the button more to be able to research more abilities from the structures. You literally have to tell that to people in order for them to understand what the hell they need to do in order to unlock special abilities for each class.

    I get that we are trying to make the kharamander work, as it is one of the few major departures from NS. My point is that in trying to make the role work, we are inventing overly complicated systems to make it interesting, and those systems are only adding to the steep learning curve that exists within this game.

    If we want this game to succeed long term, NS will have to keep adding and interesting new players. Making the game intuitive and less intimidating to someone unfamiliar with NS seems like, to me, a good way to build the player base. However, it seems UWE approach is to copy-cat LoL by appealing to competitive players who like strategy games by means of creating these grandiose tournaments. NS is not solely a strategy game, most of it is FPS (only one player per team has the commander role), thus, we need to be appealing to FPS crowd.

    I think there have to be better ways to innovate NS2 over its predecessor other than continually revamping the kharamander to the point where it's extremely difficult to pick up for newbies. Just my two cents.
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Most people seem to complain that the khammander has too minimal of a role. Like riding a bike, challenging at first, but when you learn it, you've got it down. in comparison to other rts games I've played, khammanding is on the easier side as there's a whoooole lot less micromanaging. the challenge comes in having humans playing the part of your normally ai units. as far as rts elements, I look forward to the upcoming changes as it will make the khamm a more dynamic force in the game. khamm continually being revamped? seems like this will be first khamm heavy changes.

    also don't think dumbing it down anymore will ultimately appeal to anyone, but step by step tutorials would be mega helpful. w/ New bot system, seems like they're on the right path.

    I do agree, as I'm sure we all do, that new content will help bring in more peeps and please us who've been playing a bit :D
  • amoralamoral Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Members
    hf_ wrote: »
    Biomass seems like it would be terribly unintuitive to new players. Lifeform abilities were randomly assigned to structures (although, to be fair, whoever did this did their best to have it make some sense), which are unlocked by clicking a button on the hive multiple times, and adding more hives allows you to click the button more to be able to research more abilities from the structures. You literally have to tell that to people in order for them to understand what the hell they need to do in order to unlock special abilities for each class.

    I get that we are trying to make the kharamander work, as it is one of the few major departures from NS. My point is that in trying to make the role work, we are inventing overly complicated systems to make it interesting, and those systems are only adding to the steep learning curve that exists within this game.

    If we want this game to succeed long term, NS will have to keep adding and interesting new players. Making the game intuitive and less intimidating to someone unfamiliar with NS seems like, to me, a good way to build the player base. However, it seems UWE approach is to copy-cat LoL by appealing to competitive players who like strategy games by means of creating these grandiose tournaments. NS is not solely a strategy game, most of it is FPS (only one player per team has the commander role), thus, we need to be appealing to FPS crowd.

    I think there have to be better ways to innovate NS2 over its predecessor other than continually revamping the kharamander to the point where it's extremely difficult to pick up for newbies. Just my two cents.

    to be fair, Khan changes only effect one.person a game. when we talk about learning curve we almost always talk about how the grunt experience is, because that is the predominant experience for the majority of players.
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    DEAAAAAAAAAAAAATHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Khammander is the single worst thing to grace NS2. What a pity.
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Before BT I would have agreed with this, but honestly the khammander is in a pretty good place right now.
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