Clarification Welcome

2

Comments

  • MkollMkoll Join Date: 2013-02-11 Member: 182996Members
    edited June 2013

    How could they not be more upfront with the changes.
    By posting a proposed changelog, as the thread suggests?
    Balance mod has been available freely for anyone to play & test for months
    How many players have downloaded it? I have a busy day job and i volunteer for a youth organisation in the evenings, I don't really have time to playtest a shopping list of changes for people that appears to move on a daily basis and fundamentally affect the way the game works. I have faith that UWE will do what they think is best, but a little reassurance goes a long way (thanks by the way Squeal like a Pig, that IS reassuring).
    there is a 80 page thread of feedback
    Evem if people did go looking ... 80 Pages? Are you serious?
    What do you want? A massive banner everytime you join a vanilla game that says ' oh btw, I know you don't read forums, pay attention to your server browser, twitter, public announcements, view our website or anything but if you want to input on the future of NS2 then go to forums.unknownworlds.com'.

    Realistically, I think something needs to be done to inform the blissfully ignorant that the game is going to experience some fundamental changes. Not sure what else can be done at this stage, but then again it's not my job to recruit and retain players for UWE.
    Some people just don't care enough. The people that do care enough read these forums already....
    People care plenty and will vote with their feet if the changes are so significant that they fundamentally alter the gaming experience. A very good example provided above (ref TF2).
    Additionally, the player base can't sustain the departure? Mate... If NS2 was left untouched I would give it 6 months before the server browser shows 0 players. This mod is the only reason alot of people have come back to play the game again (Australia). It has kicked off 4-5 hours of pugs every night for the past week, people are excited for this and are enjoying the game again.
    We have a server in the UK with a regular 100-150 player base, which is full every night. The only player who plays on our server, and has played the BT mod, is Roobubba; a very prominent forum member. Everyone else is completely oblivious to the BT mod, and clearly either is not aware of it or has no interest in playing a mod but wants to play the actual game they bought, rather than beta test someone's wish list. Go figure.
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2013
    By posting a proposed changelog, as the thread suggests?

    Propsed changelog has been available on the Steam workshop page from nearly day 1 and has been updated almost daily as experimental changes have been added and removed.
    How many players have downloaded it? I have a busy day job and i volunteer for a youth organisation in the evenings, I don't really have time to playtest a shopping list of changes for people that appears to move on a daily basis and fundamentally affect the way the game works. I have faith that UWE will do what they think is best, but a little reassurance goes a long way (thanks by the way Squeal like a Pig, that IS reassuring).

    Over 900 according to the Steam workshop page. There is no time requirement for downloading it, as it auto downloads from the workshop when joining a BT server.
    Evem if people did go looking ... 80 Pages? Are you serious?

    80 pages of back and fourth feedback between players and Sewlek. No one expects people to read all of it, just that an ongoing discussion and place to offer feedback regarding changes to the mod has been available since the beginning.
    Realistically, I think something needs to be done to inform the blissfully ignorant that the game is going to experience some fundamental changes. Not sure what else can be done at this stage, but then again it's not my job to recruit and retain players for UWE.

    What else could realistically be done that mf didn't mention? When you open the game, it tells you on the news box that balance changes are coming.
    We have a server in the UK with a regular 100-150 player base, which is full every night. The only player who plays on our server, and has played the BT mod, is Roobubba; a very prominent forum member. Everyone else is completely oblivious to the BT mod, and clearly either is not aware of it or has no interest in playing a mod but wants to play the actual game they bought, rather than beta test someone's wish list. Go figure.

    The wishlist stems from 8 months of witnessing how the vanilla game has played out and adjusting accordingly to offer a more varied and depth enhanced game. Hopefully resulting in a more enjoyable and progressive experience. Core Natural Selection game play is left unchanged. You still bite the guys with the teeth.



  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation
    1. There is a change log, posted on the front page....
    2. The reassurance you have is that this whole process has been open and the community has had an opportunity to provide feedback.
    3. The thread shows you the level of feedback that has been given, I don't expect you to read through it. It's for Sewlek, not you...
    4. The blissfully ignorant... lol. You summed it up right there, you can't help those people.
    5. If you care, you make an effort to follow the development of the game. Its not like bt mod has been hidden from public view
    6. Australians are smarter than the english?
  • XaoXao Join Date: 2012-12-12 Member: 174840Members
    Is sewlek paying you 3 with mentions in the credits for this mod or something?

    Honest Q.
  • CrazyEddieCrazyEddie Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178196Members
    Jekt wrote: »
    Core Natural Selection game play is left unchanged. You still bite the guys with the teeth.
    Now you're just being silly. You SHOOT the guys with the teeth. The guys with the teeth are the enemy. ;-)
  • unter_hosenunter_hosen Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11858Members, Constellation
    I just am absolutely flabbergasted that the game is being fundamentally changed based on a small amount of people wanting it to become the mainstream. Now I am sure someone is going to come out of the woodwork and say something like... "we have over x number of people wanting it"

    I don't suppose anyone has considered the x number of people who are not on the forums, those who have bought the game and like to play without all the community side of things? At the end of the day, you do have their money in your pocket as well.

    Keep these balance changes as a mod, rather than forcing it down peoples throats.

    Feel free to flame me and quote sections of this post with whatever facts/arguements/jokes. The main point I have highlighted in bold.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    "Flayra has passed to balance torch to Sewlek"

    Anyone who reads English as a first language should see this sentence alone as meaning the balance test is going live. Will all the changes make it? Yes, we just don't have a final changelog of the balance test mod so how could one possibly say whether all changes will make it? It's not a reasonable question.

    The game is simply more fun now
  • SplicerSplicer Join Date: 2012-04-23 Member: 150952Members
    Jekt wrote: »
    By posting a proposed changelog, as the thread suggests?
    You still bite the guys with the teeth.
    Except that the way the teeth work has been regressed to an earlier, less good version.
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    Splicer wrote: »
    Jekt wrote: »
    By posting a proposed changelog, as the thread suggests?
    You still bite the guys with the teeth.
    Except that the way the teeth work has been regressed to an earlier, less good version.

    Yes, having a wider 75dmg cone is absolutely terrible.
  • MkollMkoll Join Date: 2013-02-11 Member: 182996Members
    1. There is a change log, posted on the front page....
    ... and this is propagated through the community how, beyond being on the front page? how many people check the UWE website daily, beyond the 10/15/20% hardcore spamming their lives away here? What is that percentage I wonder ... my clan has 9 members, I am the only one posting or looking ...
    2. The reassurance you have is that this whole process has been open and the community has had an opportunity to provide feedback.
    No, the COMMUNITY hasn't provided feedback, those who 1) know about the BT mod, 2) have the time and enthusiasm to take a gamble on it instead of logging on to play with their friends/server regulars, and 3) having gone through that process, take the time to register here and bitch about the experience, have had the opportunity to provide feedback. A percentage of a percentage of a percentage; are we making fundamental changes on the back of teeny tiny element of the community? it appears we are.
    3. The thread shows you the level of feedback that has been given, I don't expect you to read through it. It's for Sewlek, not you...
    evidently it IS for me, if I want to offer views or if I want to find out details about proposed changes I need to wade through 75 pages of people saying that skulks should have lazer beams for eyes ...
    4. The blissfully ignorant... lol. You summed it up right there, you can't help those people.
    Yeah I accept that, but they are the guys who own the game and populate the servers you play on. Drive them away at your peril.
    5. If you care, you make an effort to follow the development of the game. Its not like bt mod has been hidden from public view
    Unless you post on the forums, it really has. A lot of people join servers their friends are on, bypassing the news element on the game front page entirely ;)
    6. Australians are smarter than the english?
    And so are the Welsh! :p

    /Cymruambyth
  • Mattk50Mattk50 Join Date: 2013-02-04 Member: 182824Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I'll be waiting until someone builds an "original" balance mod so i can actually play the game i bought.
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
    I too look forward to having 5 minute onos brought back in to the game that I paid for. Completely unacceptable that a game that I PAID MY MONEY FOR changed. I never paid for gorge tunnels and I demand they be removed as they have changed the product that I paid for.
  • Mattk50Mattk50 Join Date: 2013-02-04 Member: 182824Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2013
    Scatter wrote: »
    I too look forward to having 5 minute onos brought back in to the game that I paid for. Completely unacceptable that a game that I PAID MY MONEY FOR changed. I never paid for gorge tunnels and I demand they be removed as they have changed the product that I paid for.

    This is an entirely new game if you play aliens the majority of the time. Marines have it easier.

    Balance changes are good, but as many have stated this isn't just a balance adjustment. Many features are being removed and more implemented.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    @mkoll you can start by giving feedback now.

    Most changes are things that were seen and complained about in beta by said small percentage / hard core fans. The casuals have come and gone.. And now those still remaining have an opportunity to give feedback to fix some of the fundamental issues we saw before launch.

    So jump in.. The water is warm.
    BT servers are feverishly full lately and the change log is as accessible as the place you give feedback.

    Can't wait to hear your useful feedback! :-)
  • Apollo10000Apollo10000 Join Date: 2013-03-02 Member: 183582Members
    edited June 2013
    Mattk50 wrote: »
    Scatter wrote: »
    I too look forward to having 5 minute onos brought back in to the game that I paid for. Completely unacceptable that a game that I PAID MY MONEY FOR changed. I never paid for gorge tunnels and I demand they be removed as they have changed the product that I paid for.

    This is an entirely new game if you play aliens the majority of the time. Marines have it easier.

    Balance changes are good, but as many have stated this isn't just a balance adjustment. Many features are being removed and more implemented.

    I'm trying to think what's actually being taken out, I can come up with about two. No armor healing with the armory and no double jump shadow step, most of the balance test is tweaks of things already in the game, I'd say more has been added then taken out.

    Though talking about paying the for game you brought, you do realize every patch you get changes the game you brought, it's probably been a while since you played the actual copy you brought.

    But this game needs something changed before it loses all its player base.



  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    Mkoll wrote: »
    ...

    @Mkoll I happen to completely agree with you, insofar as only a tiny fraction of NS2 players have any idea about what is about to happen to the game. If I could turn back the clock four months, knowing all I do now about where BT Mod would have ended up, I would have pushed for the entire process to have been handled differently. It doesn't take a genius to see that BT Mod has caused a great deal of upset amongst a significant proportion of passionate players. It has personally upset me a great deal.

    That's not to say the changes are not for the better. I don't know how to balance games, so I can't pass judgement myself. But I know Flayra does, and I know he trusts Sewlek. I trust Sewlek. And I know many people that spend lots of time thinking about balance trust in these changes. So I trust that they are good. NS2 is going to be more fun across the full spectrum of public and competitive play once this is all over.

    But if ever such huge changes are to be made to a released UWE game again, they must be made in a way that doesn't cause anguish. We're all in this together... People shouldn't feel disenfranchised, out of the loop, and frustrated. @MKoll shouldn't feel like his 100-player community doesn't know what is going on. This is not about blog posts, Twitter feeds, and tournaments. The roll-out process needs to be re-worked completely.

    UWE is not perfect. We have to learn by doing, and by listening to the reaction to our development methods. I just wish I knew what I know now, four months ago.
  • wirywiry Join Date: 2009-05-25 Member: 67479Members
    edited June 2013
    Hugh wrote: »
    It has personally upset me a great deal.

    Mm, I bet.

  • MkollMkoll Join Date: 2013-02-11 Member: 182996Members
    edited June 2013
    Hugh wrote: »
    Mkoll wrote: »
    ...
    /snip
    It's very easy to sit on the outside of a process and chuck rocks, picking off perceived flaws, and everyone who has even touched this game understands it's a labour of love for everyone involved. Hindsight is also a wonderful thing; I believe the common euphemism in America is the "monday morning quarterback"? Please don't take it personally @Hugh, it's passion. Perhaps a different angle on all this is that a lot of players LIKE what UWE have done, and follow the philosophy of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" for much of the experience.

    On a personal level, I have been telling everyone I know for the past 10 years how the most outstanding gaming experience in my life was a ruthless and bloody 7 hour back and forth over ns_bast on NS1.4, and begging people to get the game (in those days download the mod, nowadays to buy it). So those who do come here and offer comment, in support of or in questioning the BT changes, love this game as much as everyone else.

    Having said all that, when you do your best to communicate effectively, via a variety of means and in as accessible way as possible, there is always that critical group, which is normally a majority of your audience, that you can't key into and take soundings from - either because they don't want to engage or because they don't consider the issue important enough to care until they are directly affected.

    By which time it's too late to take those views into account ...
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    I can't comprehend mulling over something like this. Discussing changes is one thing, but contemplating whether or not you should be worried... Maybe go for a nice walk outside, instead. It's summer! :bz
  • SplicerSplicer Join Date: 2012-04-23 Member: 150952Members
    Neoken wrote: »
    Splicer wrote: »
    Jekt wrote: »
    By posting a proposed changelog, as the thread suggests?
    You still bite the guys with the teeth.
    Except that the way the teeth work has been regressed to an earlier, less good version.

    Yes, having a wider 75dmg cone is absolutely terrible.
    Yes, having an overall narrower cone is absolutely awesome.
  • BentRingBentRing Join Date: 2003-03-04 Member: 14318Members
    Yes, an overall narrower biting cone is awesome when the damage is consistent.

    It's literally the same thing as having drastically reduced damage when non vital areas of the khaara are hit from a bullet but I don't see people clamoring for that change.
  • KovenKoven Join Date: 2007-04-20 Member: 60677Members, Constellation
    Oh, Hugh, hold me and tell me everything is going to be ok. I'm afraid of the big bad BT mod :'(
  • AiorosAioros Join Date: 2003-03-24 Member: 14850Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2013
    NS already had this kind of changes which the resulte in an increased playerbase afterwards.
    There are always changes in live, Jobs, technologie and stuff. You like them or you dont like them.

    You will never have 100% of the UWE players agree with you, it doesnt matter what you do or how you do it.
    I think the work of the balance mod was pretty nice. I for myself though of it as a fun project of sewlek.

    And he said himself the majority of the feedback he got was from casual players and rookies just getting lost on his server with that mod.
    If everyone would have been informed, i think the community would have split even more. people only playing sewlek BT Mod while other only play Vanilla.

    and he even experimented with stuff people would srsly rage about. Something he wouldnt be able to do so, if everyone would have known about this.
    Ever single change he made just for testing, seeing results of how they impact the overall game, would have resulted into a shitstorm.
    And shirtstorm for everychange over 4 month ... i think only a few players and forum visitors would have been left.


    at the moment sewlek was testing the LMG spread and made it higher again (after he lowerd it), the reaction of that was srsly no fun at all.
    Now think about sewlek trying to work on that kind of stuff while 1000 players constantly cry about changes, hes just doing for testing.

    The no Tres drops for example .... omg how people raged about it, even so he said hes just trying to see the impact on the game and so on.


    So for future projects like this, dont tell it to the community from the start. But when you got close for the final month of testing, spread the word and announce it better.
    Just do a Cup like i did with the balance mod cup and get people to try it out. Because most people who are crying in the forum didnt played the BT mod and didnt gave it a fair chance.
  • FleshmaulerFleshmauler Join Date: 2013-06-04 Member: 185480Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Well I thought about the BT change a bit myself, and realized I don't care. I eventually got good at vanilla because I loved the game - I'll eventually get good at Balance Test, and if I don't like it I'll just play something else. There really is no point crying over this anymore since there won't be a 180 at this point, just be a bit more callous about it; if you don't like the new changes I'm sure someone will make a vanilla mod, if not at least the game gave you a lot of great memories.
  • SanCoSanCo Join Date: 2012-08-18 Member: 155744Members
    edited June 2013
    Serious players will continue to play no matter what, too hardcore too quit. But the average joe who spent 50h slowly learning vanilla and then all of a sudden the entire games changes? I wonder what that guy will feel, personally I don't think he will be very happy with it. I honestly think it's a bit naive to think the average guy has any idea this is going to happen, and he will be shocked. I think you risk alienate a big part of the current player base, lets hope you manage to replace those.
  • LoulebeLoulebe Join Date: 2013-02-14 Member: 183064Members
    edited June 2013
    More than 1000 hours (in vanilla) and didn't like this bt. Movement of skulk / fade. and other movement i hate... Now i'm stuck in some vent... Lerk become a support (not a harass)

    Bt will be resume in one word. "gangbang"

    Skulk is not sneaky ,they need just to wait 5-10 sec for all team come
    in some mmo we called "bus" :d Yes that the good words

    Maybe bt is more teamplay and less duel or 2v2 fight and when fade is up is only gangbang.

    And bt change every day, i will see that they have two bt... Witch one you will use ? :d

    I just like the improvement on com. (on drifter , shell ,ect) But DIDN't LIKE change the gameplay of skulk ,marine ,ect

    When vanilla was stable in ffa. you destroyed all. I know why you don't do some improvement... in vanilla during phew month...
    Don't want to play a new game.
    Kill the ffa will be the first step of ns2 death

    soz for my english.

    I really hope that you will do some advertising to replace the community...


    The tick is only 30...
    We die after ther corner ,in the bt this effect is more important... in high speed...


    I just want the improvement on com and maybe rebalance a phew and conserve the vanilla movement...

    In the other case , i maybe quit ns2 this summer ... If i didn't like the new movement... (for example ,when i play bf2 ,i didn't want they change their game for call of du...)
  • RollmansRollmans Join Date: 2013-06-16 Member: 185579Members
    edited June 2013
    It's too disgusting to think about them "replacing" the people who will quit over the changes.
    Those people paid for one thing, which they then put time in to learn, and now it's turning into something quite different that requires re-learning a lot of stuff.
    IMO it isn't right. You could maybe get away with this much change though if it was done gradually on the live build rather than all separated out like it has been.

    @Hugh - Given all the noise made previously about 50/50 winrates and how the game was well balanced, where do these new changes/the balance test mod fit in? Thought the game was balanced bro. I'd like an explanation. Is this really a balance thing?
  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members
    Rollmans wrote: »
    It's too disgusting to think about them "replacing" the people who will quit over the changes.
    Those people paid for one thing, which they then put time in to learn, and now it's turning into something quite different that requires re-learning a lot of stuff.
    IMO it isn't right. You could maybe get away with this much change though if it was done gradually on the live build rather than all separated out like it has been.

    @Hugh - Given all the noise made previously about 50/50 winrates and how the game was well balanced, where do these new changes/the balance test mod fit in? Thought the game was balanced bro. I'd like an explanation. Is this really a balance thing?

    if they put the BETA tag back on the game would you be happier?
  • RollmansRollmans Join Date: 2013-06-16 Member: 185579Members
    edited June 2013
    biz wrote: »
    Rollmans wrote: »
    It's too disgusting to think about them "replacing" the people who will quit over the changes.
    Those people paid for one thing, which they then put time in to learn, and now it's turning into something quite different that requires re-learning a lot of stuff.
    IMO it isn't right. You could maybe get away with this much change though if it was done gradually on the live build rather than all separated out like it has been.

    @Hugh - Given all the noise made previously about 50/50 winrates and how the game was well balanced, where do these new changes/the balance test mod fit in? Thought the game was balanced bro. I'd like an explanation. Is this really a balance thing?

    if they put the BETA tag back on the game would you be happier?

    No, the game has been sold as a finished product for a while now. There's no going back. What does this even mean?
    Surely you don't think it is acceptable to alienate a bunch of people whose money you have taken as long as you can get more?

    I also don't believe you can seriously be arguing that they didn't previously state the game was "balanced" based on an evaluation of win rates, so what's your point?
Sign In or Register to comment.