It's too disgusting to think about them "replacing" the people who will quit over the changes.
Those people paid for one thing, which they then put time in to learn, and now it's turning into something quite different that requires re-learning a lot of stuff.
IMO it isn't right. You could maybe get away with this much change though if it was done gradually on the live build rather than all separated out like it has been.
@Hugh - Given all the noise made previously about 50/50 winrates and how the game was well balanced, where do these new changes/the balance test mod fit in? Thought the game was balanced bro. I'd like an explanation. Is this really a balance thing?
if they put the BETA tag back on the game would you be happier?
No, the game has been sold as a finished product for a while now. There's no going back. What does this even mean?
Surely you don't think it is acceptable to alienate a bunch of people whose money you have taken as long as you can get more?
I also don't believe you can seriously be arguing that they didn't previously state the game was "balanced" based on an evaluation of win rates, so what's your point?
You bought ns2 1.0, and you received ns2 1.0. If you want your finished product to not change, simply copy paste backup your ns2 lua code, upload it to workshop, and have fun playing it with likeminded people.
Expecting anything else is pretty arrogant. What's ok is discussing and arguing over the changes and features going into b250. What's not ok is forcing everyone to play on the broken swing set because that just happens to be your favourite thing to do at the park.
Tic Tac Toe is the most balanced game ever made and has been out of beta for quite some time. It also happens to be boring as cardboard and the gameplay could easily be improved to something much funner e.g. connect 4.
I mean, since when have companies not been allowed to improve their software products after they've been sold? Infact, it's typical for companies to charge customers for access to drastically improved/revamped software versions. b250 is being shipped to customers for free, and server owners are given the choice as to what they want to run.
What's not ok is forcing everyone to play on the broken swing set because that just happens to be your favourite thing to do at the park.
Hypocrite much?
Tic Tac Toe is the most balanced game ever made and has been out of beta for quite some time. It also happens to be boring as cardboard and the gameplay could easily be improved to something much funner e.g. connect 4.
Just for your information, Tic Tac Toe is insanely imbalanced in favor of the person who goes first.
What's not ok is forcing everyone to play on the broken swing set because that just happens to be your favourite thing to do at the park.
Hypocrite much?
Tic Tac Toe is the most balanced game ever made and has been out of beta for quite some time. It also happens to be boring as cardboard and the gameplay could easily be improved to something much funner e.g. connect 4.
Just for your information, Tic Tac Toe is insanely imbalanced in favor of the person who goes first.
erm. I outlined how he could continue playing vanilla ns2. No-one is forcing him to play a bt patch, and server operators arn't forced to run anything in particular. Rollman's arguement against bt is that the game is 50/50 balanced, changes are unnecessary, and that b250 will prevent him from playing the game he paid for. All of which are incorrect.
Reading comprehension much?
And just for your information, the overarching definition of game balance is fairness between opposing powers in relation to the win condition. The outcome of tic tac toe is always a draw regardless of who goes first. Not to mention who goes first is a meta rule made up by players. Do you even tic tac toe bro.
What's not ok is forcing everyone to play on the broken swing set because that just happens to be your favourite thing to do at the park.
Hypocrite much?
Tic Tac Toe is the most balanced game ever made and has been out of beta for quite some time. It also happens to be boring as cardboard and the gameplay could easily be improved to something much funner e.g. connect 4.
Just for your information, Tic Tac Toe is insanely imbalanced in favor of the person who goes first.
erm. I outlined how he could continue playing vanilla ns2. No-one is forcing him to play a bt patch, and server operators arn't forced to run anything in particular. Rollman's arguement against bt is that the game is 50/50 balanced, changes are unnecessary, and that b250 will prevent him from playing the game he paid for. All of which are incorrect.
Reading comprehension much?
The exact same thing is true for the other side of the argument though. The BT mod could easily be made so it is just a mod that anyone can attach to a server instead of being forced down everyone's throats.
So yes, hypocrisy abounds.
And just for your information, the overarching definition of game balance is fairness between opposing powers in relation to the win condition. The outcome of tic tac toe is always a draw regardless of who goes first. Do you even tic tac toe bro.
Mmmm... I love an argument based around anecdotal evidence. Edit: Actually, I'm going to stop this argument on Tic Tac Toe and just agree with you when you say it is boring as cardboard.
What's not ok is forcing everyone to play on the broken swing set because that just happens to be your favourite thing to do at the park.
Hypocrite much?
Tic Tac Toe is the most balanced game ever made and has been out of beta for quite some time. It also happens to be boring as cardboard and the gameplay could easily be improved to something much funner e.g. connect 4.
Just for your information, Tic Tac Toe is insanely imbalanced in favor of the person who goes first.
erm. I outlined how he could continue playing vanilla ns2. No-one is forcing him to play a bt patch, and server operators arn't forced to run anything in particular. Rollman's arguement against bt is that the game is 50/50 balanced, changes are unnecessary, and that b250 will prevent him from playing the game he paid for. All of which are incorrect.
Reading comprehension much?
The exact same thing is true for the other side of the argument though. The BT mod could easily be made so it is just a mod that anyone can attach to a server instead of being forced down everyone's throats.
So yes, hypocrisy abounds.
And just for your information, the overarching definition of game balance is fairness between opposing powers in relation to the win condition. The outcome of tic tac toe is always a draw regardless of who goes first. Do you even tic tac toe bro.
Mmmm... I love an argument based around anecdotal evidence. Edit: Actually, I'm going to stop this argument on Tic Tac Toe and just agree with you when you say it is boring as cardboard.
I hope rollman and yourself understand that at the time at which you purchased ns2, it would have been made pretty clear in alot of official information sources that ns2 would undergo iterative development.
Nothing is being forced down anyone's throat. I've explained why that is, and untill you show where i'm wrong, i'm not prepared to go over this again. Disable steam auto update if you feel this strongly. You'll still be perfectly able to launch b249, create a b249 server and/or play a b249 game.
And now im curious. Do you enjoy playing tic tac toe? And what anecdotal evidence did i bring up? The Tic Tac Toe example was critical to the issue because it demonstrated the importance of gameplay depth as opposed to only gameplay balance. This isn't something you just 'drop'. Balance is a tool to good game design, and not good game design in and of itself as rollman suggested. To go full circle, if you want to discuss and argue about the game design in bt, go ahead. If you want to argue that game design doesn't need to change because 'balance is 50/50', go away.
I'm not against many of the changes, but what you just said there elodea was just completely ridiculous. Yes, you can run a b249 server and run around on it on your own once 250 is out, but that is NOT 'playing the game.'
Honestly, a better way to smooth these changes through is not to dismiss all criticism of the mod, and especially not to dismiss people's understandable anxiety about what it will do to the game when out in the wild on large scale.
Like I said, I'm not against implementing many of the changes, but my concern along with others I chat to on my steam list, is that it's not ready for release yet. While changes can be undone if they just don't work out, this kind of U-turn is often seen as a big weakness. I suspect there may be a few things that will end up being reversed, and I just hope that not too many people are forced away from our community in the meantime.
I'm not trying to stick up for Robotix, as I don't agree with most of what he's posted, but your response to him @elodea was just as ridiculous!
I'm not against many of the changes, but what you just said there elodea was just completely ridiculous. Yes, you can run a b249 server and run around on it on your own once 250 is out, but that is NOT 'playing the game.'
How is it not? If other people want to play b249 as well, they'll simply join your server and play no? And if any dedi server operator wants to run b249, they can do that easily. Obviously if no one joins your server, or no one puts up a b249 dedi server, that problem if your own.
What's not ok is forcing everyone to play on the broken swing set because that just happens to be your favourite thing to do at the park.
Hypocrite much?
Tic Tac Toe is the most balanced game ever made and has been out of beta for quite some time. It also happens to be boring as cardboard and the gameplay could easily be improved to something much funner e.g. connect 4.
Just for your information, Tic Tac Toe is insanely imbalanced in favor of the person who goes first.
nope, it's so insanely balanced there's literally no way to win
When looked at from a totally random perspective without taking into account strategy, Tic-Tac-Toe is imbalanced to the player who goes first, as there are many more possible combinations that lead to his victory than there are for his opponent.
In practice however, there is literally no way to win Tic-Tac-Toe if both players know which moves to make.
Comments
You bought ns2 1.0, and you received ns2 1.0. If you want your finished product to not change, simply copy paste backup your ns2 lua code, upload it to workshop, and have fun playing it with likeminded people.
Expecting anything else is pretty arrogant. What's ok is discussing and arguing over the changes and features going into b250. What's not ok is forcing everyone to play on the broken swing set because that just happens to be your favourite thing to do at the park.
Tic Tac Toe is the most balanced game ever made and has been out of beta for quite some time. It also happens to be boring as cardboard and the gameplay could easily be improved to something much funner e.g. connect 4.
I mean, since when have companies not been allowed to improve their software products after they've been sold? Infact, it's typical for companies to charge customers for access to drastically improved/revamped software versions. b250 is being shipped to customers for free, and server owners are given the choice as to what they want to run.
Hypocrite much?
Just for your information, Tic Tac Toe is insanely imbalanced in favor of the person who goes first.
Reading comprehension much?
And just for your information, the overarching definition of game balance is fairness between opposing powers in relation to the win condition. The outcome of tic tac toe is always a draw regardless of who goes first. Not to mention who goes first is a meta rule made up by players. Do you even tic tac toe bro.
The exact same thing is true for the other side of the argument though. The BT mod could easily be made so it is just a mod that anyone can attach to a server instead of being forced down everyone's throats.
So yes, hypocrisy abounds.
Mmmm... I love an argument based around anecdotal evidence. Edit: Actually, I'm going to stop this argument on Tic Tac Toe and just agree with you when you say it is boring as cardboard.
Nothing is being forced down anyone's throat. I've explained why that is, and untill you show where i'm wrong, i'm not prepared to go over this again. Disable steam auto update if you feel this strongly. You'll still be perfectly able to launch b249, create a b249 server and/or play a b249 game.
And now im curious. Do you enjoy playing tic tac toe? And what anecdotal evidence did i bring up? The Tic Tac Toe example was critical to the issue because it demonstrated the importance of gameplay depth as opposed to only gameplay balance. This isn't something you just 'drop'. Balance is a tool to good game design, and not good game design in and of itself as rollman suggested. To go full circle, if you want to discuss and argue about the game design in bt, go ahead. If you want to argue that game design doesn't need to change because 'balance is 50/50', go away.
Honestly, a better way to smooth these changes through is not to dismiss all criticism of the mod, and especially not to dismiss people's understandable anxiety about what it will do to the game when out in the wild on large scale.
Like I said, I'm not against implementing many of the changes, but my concern along with others I chat to on my steam list, is that it's not ready for release yet. While changes can be undone if they just don't work out, this kind of U-turn is often seen as a big weakness. I suspect there may be a few things that will end up being reversed, and I just hope that not too many people are forced away from our community in the meantime.
I'm not trying to stick up for Robotix, as I don't agree with most of what he's posted, but your response to him @elodea was just as ridiculous!
nope, it's so insanely balanced there's literally no way to win
In practice however, there is literally no way to win Tic-Tac-Toe if both players know which moves to make.