Proposed Balance Changes - Natural Selection 2

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Comments

  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    CrushaK wrote: »
    @Bacillus: The general intentions of the changes can be outlined as:
    - make underused content equally viable as strategy than the other stuff (early Robotics Factory, Flamethrowers, Grenade Launchers, other tech paths than Crag)
    - increase the number of strategic decisions and allow for more varied early game tactics (Biomass; all support chambers can be built from the start; Arms Lab no longer requires Armory)
    - prolong the early game / make lategame units less powerful and game deciding (since sneaky early game play as Skulk is more fun than just throwing unbeatable Exos and Onos at each other)
    - make the gameplay feel more dynamic (reduction of gameplay elements that are not interesting in themselves, like chewing/welding an RT for a minute; more Drifter micromanagement for khammander, so he gets to do something else than just cysting around and clicking buttons; less waiting for things like Drifter or ARC production; ninja PGs; ProtoLab on 1 CC; aliens instantly lose an equipped upgrade when the structure goes down; individual RT ticks)
    - make higher tech more accessible to new players (cost reduction of the tech, so you can go Onos even if you didn't save the entire match for it, as well as making it less bad if you lose that investment right away; removal of "No Res While Dead" rule; both upgrades are unlocked by the same upgrade structure for aliens; Biomass reduces the opportunity cost on individual Hive upgrades, so it's more likely that they will be researched anyway and no lifeform is "left behind" by the khammander)
    - address some balancing issues (Armory turtling; lack of lategame scaling for alien lifeforms; egg lock on large servers; structure spam on alien side)
    - offer new strategies (early Robotics Factory; Echoing Gorge Tunnels; fast Umbra; Flamethrower rush; fast ARCing; fast Jetpacks)

    The BT mod has gone through a purging phase already where all ideas that did not address a balance issues or were making the gameplay more fun got phased out.

    Yeah, I can somewhat piece things together from the forum posts and such, but it's not exactly a very clear plan even as you list it. Also, you shouldn't really have to read through 10 pages of forums or come across someone's unofficial summary to figure out the big outlines.

    What I'm looking for is something like a front page newspost that says:

    "We are not happy how the skulk gameplay is working. We are planning to tackle this through redesigned movement system that takes some elements from NS1 and combines them with NS2. The idea is to bring back the speed/predictability tradeoff and to add more finesse through some air curving and jump chaining mechanics that can be combined with the existing movement mechanics of NS2."

    A brief writeup on what they are planning to do and demonstration that they've got some plan on how to approach the issue. I feel that's how you're going to win back the people who have grown indifferent during the long development process of NS2.

    Obviously that's a lot to ask and quite likely impossible to pull off all the way, but I think it's a good way to score extra points whenever they are able to do something along those lines.
  • ShadokoShadoko Join Date: 2013-06-15 Member: 185573Members
    Sorry got issues with my connection and posted it 4 times. How can I delete them ?
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    Well, that's pretty much the official statement that we got from Sewlek back then. In the big picture, the BT mod is supposed to either balance out existing flaws or to add new strategies/fun. Everything else is just a subset of that credo and has evolved a lot between the time that a change was introduced and now.

    For instance was one of the first intentions was to prolong the early game a lot by increasing tech cost, introducing Biomass and increasing the cost of RTs to 12.5 res. This stuff has been reverted since then and rather turned into the opposite where RTs cost less and tech acquisition time has been reduced. It's hard to tell if some changes are now intentional changes to balance or just a follow effect that was introduced to go with a certain other change.

    But for the most part, every change stands pretty much on it's own because something was deemed flawed about it's previous concept. It's really hard to name a big outline if there isn't really one but rather a lot of individual pictures that address individual problems.


    Here was one older post where I was naming the reasonings behind changes of the BT mod, based on previous statements from Sewlek.
  • ShadokoShadoko Join Date: 2013-06-15 Member: 185573Members
    edited June 2013
    I really don't get why they would like to reduce the early game since it is the funniest part of the game.
  • RedSwordRedSword Join Date: 2006-12-07 Member: 58947Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    edited June 2013
    3) Don't overblow the tech changes. LuaJIT gave things a bit of a boost, but it isn't all that because of how Lua/C interop works. OpenGL and DirectX11 aren't gonna do shit, let's stop pretending they are the second coming of ja himself.

    The "a bit" might not be big for you; but it is for many others.

    Considering how Valve proved in their test that OpenGL can be faster, I believe you're wrong. Plus OpenGL allows Unix-based system to run the game... I think an easy ~10% more players can be reached by that (and I'm being pessimist).
  • frantixfrantix Join Date: 2013-03-18 Member: 184063Members, WC 2013 - Supporter
    edited June 2013
    I just tested the Balance Mod for the first time and have to say it's awesome so far. Last game was 45 minutes, I thought we had won already but marines could still push back with one CC + JP, giving us a hard time. I would LOVE to see this mod becoming the real game, as I see how it focuses diverity of strategies, tactics and teamplay.

    But I also agree that a good basic tutorial is needed.
  • Mattk50Mattk50 Join Date: 2013-02-04 Member: 182824Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Using the BT mod to test specific changes are one thing. Making BT vanilla is another entirely. I like some of the changes, others will kill my enjoyment of the game. Please, be more cautious and reconsider before making such drastic changes as making the skulk better than the fade.
  • SplicerSplicer Join Date: 2012-04-23 Member: 150952Members
    edited June 2013
    Rollmans wrote: »
    Meanwhile for everyone else they are useless, even if that is true which I doubt.
    As a very much not-comp player I use babblers all the time, they're awesome. I agree with everything else you said though.
    CrushaK wrote: »
    Ok. Are you now going to back any of your statements up or will you persist on trying to continue a discussion solely based on your subjective opinions?
    Are you?
    CrushaK wrote: »
    1) "Ignore your most active player base, who will still play the game on a regular base after the casual players have abandoned you.
    Exactly. The fanboys and comp player base will stay no matter what, so there's no need to cater to them. Oh they'll complain and whine and wring their hands at the dumbing down of the game, but they'll stay. And if they don't, well, they're not the ones pulling in new players.
    CrushaK wrote: »
    Also ignore that casual players eventually become near comp-level players if they stick around long enough.
    Yes. If they stick around long enough. But they're not, are they? What's the retention rate on new players to this game? Not good.

    There's a lot of selection bias going on here. While it's not what "the community" wants to hear, the current, established players are not those the game devs needs to listen to, if they want the game to grow. They are, in fact, the last people the devs should listen to, because the very fact that they're still playing shows they're not representative of those being driven away. Continuous new blood is what keeps a game alive, stagnating around the preferences of the "established community" is what makes a game die.
  • RedSwordRedSword Join Date: 2006-12-07 Member: 58947Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    edited June 2013
    Neoken wrote: »
    Another example is the alien tech tree. Crag is mandatory because carapace is sooo important, shift is nice to have and a logical choice for second hive because you can use adrenaline for all the second hive abilities, and then there is shade, which is an early game gamble that loses much of it's use mid-late game. This sort of stuff is what makes people say NS2 is stale. So again, BT mod is trying to make all three hive specializations and it's upgrades equally viable.

    Celerity becomes important in pub games, as it allows to spawn more eggs.

    But I agree that shade hive cripple too much the alien team mid/late game. Someone suggested like 1 month ago a new shade ability X (can't remember the name) that allowed to take 2 ability : either carapace and regen OR celerity and adrenaline.

    This could give the following scenario : A team goes first hive shade to get silence, which then turns out with a 2nd hive completed and evolved to give carapace + regen or celerity + adren. Note that when taking that ability X, the lifeform canno't take silence/camo. That would be viable I believe. And make shade somewhat more useful.
  • SanthoranSanthoran Join Date: 2013-04-14 Member: 184809Members
    Robotix wrote: »
    UWE is a collection of amazing people trying their darnedest to make this game great, and I applaud them for that. They are a small group that doesn't have the resources or manpower to be able to do everything or to do it quickly, and I realize that. They have improved performance and added content, which are both great, but they need to realize what they should be focusing on: the average player. Doing anything else at this point in time will just lead us to the end.

    You're right, and i really hope that UWE does look carefully at those "balance mod" and dont put everything blind in, as it is basically then a lot more then just an update, its a game changer.
    Like Docking- isnt no Docking anymore and its balance is worse then ever before (on Pubs), there UWE failed badly...i wont ever vote for docking again in mapchange.
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    Splicer wrote: »
    CrushaK wrote: »
    Also ignore that casual players eventually become near comp-level players if they stick around long enough.
    Yes. If they stick around long enough. But they're not, are they? What's the retention rate on new players to this game? Not good.

    This part is not about player acquisition and retention but about balance. You can't just completely blend out the upper end of the skill spectrum, which is what is original post was referring to. If you do that, you will eventually run into imbalances once you hit a certain level of play. If veteran marines were to win every engagement against veteran aliens, the game would become stale and uninteresting in the upper tiers, eventually causing players to no longer enjoy it once they got "good enough" at it.
    Balance has to cater to the upper and assume that the general population aspires to reach that level. Mind that I am not saying that you should balance it for the top 1%, nor that you can not include "noob tube"-like stuff to throw casual players a bone. But you can't expect to build all mechanics and balance just on a low level, or else the entire balance above that would collapse.

    CrushaK wrote: »
    1) "Ignore your most active player base, who will still play the game on a regular base after the casual players have abandoned you.
    Exactly. The fanboys and comp player base will stay no matter what, so there's no need to cater to them. Oh they'll complain and whine and wring their hands and the dumbing down of the game, but they'll stay. And if they don't, well, they're not the ones pulling in new players.

    I think this is something where UWE's design philosophy would take over. I simply don't see them as the kind of dev who would dumb down the vision of their game just to cater to a wider audience - that would be like betraying their own ideals for a fast buck. They are one of the few remaining dev teams who believe that there is still a market nowadays for games that utilize an oldschool approach and are not afraid of having a somewhat more complex gameplay than your average shooter. Which is something I deeply respect them for.

    CrushaK wrote: »
    Ok. Are you now going to back any of your statements up or will you persist on trying to continue a discussion solely based on your subjective opinions?
    Are you?

    I would, but luckily I don't throw claims like "90% of the player base will definitely leave once this goes live" around me in every sentence, so there's no need for that at this point.



  • ShadokoShadoko Join Date: 2013-06-15 Member: 185573Members
    Santhoran wrote: »
    Robotix wrote: »
    UWE is a collection of amazing people trying their darnedest to make this game great, and I applaud them for that. They are a small group that doesn't have the resources or manpower to be able to do everything or to do it quickly, and I realize that. They have improved performance and added content, which are both great, but they need to realize what they should be focusing on: the average player. Doing anything else at this point in time will just lead us to the end.

    You're right, and i really hope that UWE does look carefully at those "balance mod" and dont put everything blind in, as it is basically then a lot more then just an update, its a game changer.
    Like Docking- isnt no Docking anymore and its balance is worse then ever before (on Pubs), there UWE failed badly...i wont ever vote for docking again in mapchange.

  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    Rollmans wrote: »
    In fact they are making it worse by promoting comp friendly/casual hostile mechanics.
    This holds no weight unless you provide *how*, exactly you find this to be true.
  • ezekelezekel Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Rollmans wrote: »
    CrushaK wrote: »
    1) "Ignore your most active player base, who will still play the game on a regular base after the casual players have abandoned you.

    Yeah, all 100 of them. That's going to keep the game alive for sure. Focus on what counts.
    CrushaK wrote: »
    Also ignore that casual players eventually become near comp-level players if they stick around long enough.

    All 5 of those guys too. Get real.
    CrushaK wrote: »
    Last time I checked, there are still leagues, prizes and broadcasts of matches.

    And not a single fuck was given. Sorry but the NS2 comp scene is so minor as to be worthless for promoting the game. In fact they are making it worse by promoting comp friendly/casual hostile mechanics. It's also never going to go anywhere with even 10x the current playerbase.
    CrushaK wrote: »
    2) Funnily enough Babblers are used quite a lot by dedicated Gorges in comp play, since they give such a massive boost to a Gorge's life expectancy.

    Meanwhile for everyone else they are useless, even if that is true which I doubt.
    CrushaK wrote: »
    3) Let's not implement changes that will make the game accessible to a wider audience of players on Unix and Mac systems and eventually enable Unix servers to host the game

    Unix and Mac? It hasn't been accepted by a decent enough amount of Windows users, and those platforms have such a small potential audience it almost isn't worth focusing any effort on.
    CrushaK wrote: »
    Let's also ignore all the performance improvements that can come hand in hand with DX11, for instance the non-mirrored VRAM on 32 bit OS. You should just stop any technical advancement whatsoever, the game is in a good enough state right now.

    I for one can't wait to see the blistering performance gains resulting from non-mirrored VRAM on a 32 bit OS. See 1.

    In terms of making progress, fanboys are almost as bad as comp players.

    You realize the casual players have mostly left, and the hardcore are still actively playing/interested in assisting with balance, while you unfortunately don't provide any real feedback besides saying "this sucks" after probably playing one or three rounds on the mod against other people who also don't know the changes, it took me a good amount of time to learn things like the new movement and etc, I'll rebump my movement tutorial videos to help those who need it. The changes are good, the game flows better, and more things are viable.

    The competitive userbase is always the one willing to spend more on a game they love where they're treated properly, and you do realize a lot of the people who bought this game but aren't playing are also competitive players who were just too upset with how NS2 was playing out (and performance) since performance got a pretty hefty buff and the game flow is going more to what it was (and better) I feel some of those players may actually come back, and competitive scenes are what make games huge. Look at garbage of legends, you see all those viewers on the streams? That's regular/competitive players watching pros play because 1) they learn from it and 2) they strive to become a dominant player, it's the same for any game. *NS2 however just doesn't have the introduction that massive matching system a game like that has, which lets those players face their own level of skills and improve from there. NS2 does however have the spectator overview (and can be further improved upon) for streaming those kind of matches, with the next big content update and another steam store front page I think the game can get a good kick up in user percentage as well. *While ns2 can throw you into a mixed bag match and one person can run the whole thing, when in reality that player should be facing players on his/her own level

    Just needs a re-vamp with tutorials or better yet a tutorial map that introduces a lot of mechanics to you before you even play, since those require you to complete the tutorial map before you can even begin playing


  • Mattk50Mattk50 Join Date: 2013-02-04 Member: 182824Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Would someone explain to me why fades havent just been removed?
  • ezekelezekel Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Mattk50 wrote: »
    Would someone explain to me why fades havent just been removed?

    Because then aliens can do nothing about shotguns, jetpacks, or anything else past 10 minutes of match time
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    edited June 2013
    I don't really *get* skulk movement right now. Anyone have a writeup on how it works? As a marine, skulk movement looks a little less realistic, but I don't have a good handle on what's actually going on. Sometimes I'm flying through the map as a skulk, sometimes I'm limping along, and I can't tell which behavior led to which.

    Mostly though I want to hear what @fanatic has to say about it. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me. :)
  • YMICrazyYMICrazy Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165986Members
    edited June 2013
    What I do not get is both sides making claims as to how their side is the only one left who plays NS2. How do you know which side is the majority?

    Let's look at the chart here:
    http://steamcharts.com/app/4920

    Today the numbers go from 416 concurrent to 790 concurrent as I am posting the playercount is reaching the peak within 2-3 hours. On these forums go to the front page. There are 38 people online on the forums at the moment. If you want an accurate number of the players in game go in game remove all filters and count all the players from all servers. Are people seriously saying these forums are the majority? 38 people? And that every single one of these 38 people agree with the BT mod changes? Let's be a bit more generous and increase that number to 100. 100 people from the forums make up the bulk of the game and each of them agrees with all the changes? The problem is certain people want their cake and want to eat it too. I am sure at least half of the BT mod is not that bad but there are other changes that have been argued for months that are not going to change. That is fine the creator and devs have their own idea for the game and they can do what they want but please do not assume the entire player base is behind one side. There is an easy way to find out actually.

    Poll it in game and see the results. It will never happen though because most of you can already predict the results.


  • SyknikSyknik InversionNS2.com Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2064Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    Run forward towards a wall, jump towards and off of it (clipping it), for about 2-3 walls, then just press space bar when you're about to hit the floor, then use either strafe right or strafe left, and continue, and enjoy the gained speed. (or you could use the walls more if you really want too)
  • ezekelezekel Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Members, NS2 Map Tester
    edited June 2013
    I didn't say anything about the forums, go into any server and tell me how many people are playing to WIN compared to just playing, anyone playing to WIN is considered competitive; the only time I stated pros was with stream watching, didn't say pros were majority anywhere

    Also go to any rookie server and tell me how many rookies you see, you won't see many. Rookie filter needs to be removed, if a server wants to be rookie friendly keep it in the server title. Rookie players should stay green-named for 15+ hours
  • YMICrazyYMICrazy Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165986Members
    edited June 2013
    ezekel wrote: »
    I didn't say anything about the forums, go into any server and tell me how many people are playing to WIN compared to just playing, anyone playing to WIN is considered competitive; the only time I stated pros was with stream watching, didn't say pros were majority anywhere

    Hm alright I'll remove quoting you then. The issue is while the objective of the game is to win, the process of getting there is important as well. If you are not enjoying the game play then the game becomes a chore then why play it? For me seeing my team win does not always fill me with joy as I have had cheap victories and losses that were enjoyable despite being defeated. Or else concede would make everyone happy. What I love about the game is the process towards getting the victory. The entertainment value of this process varies from player to player depending on what they find enjoyable. Some people look for a higher challenge others just want an easy going game where they do not have to stress out so there will always be a division. If UWE wants the collective opinion of the entire community they could just poll it and get feedback. Otherwise they are just limiting their data to a smaller portion of their player base. My honest opinion is that the nature of NS2 makes it incredibly difficult to balance the game for both sides so they are out of luck. Either way I hope it works out.

    Also I wish google moderator would be put back to see some ideas flowing again with dev feedback as well as community votes.
  • ezekelezekel Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Members, NS2 Map Tester
    moultano wrote: »
    I don't really *get* skulk movement right now. Anyone have a writeup on how it works? As a marine, skulk movement looks a little less realistic, but I don't have a good handle on what's actually going on. Sometimes I'm flying through the map as a skulk, sometimes I'm limping along, and I can't tell which behavior led to which.

    Mostly though I want to hear what @fanatic has to say about it. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me. :)

    http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/130369/video-tutorial-balance-testing-skulk-fade-movement-beginner-to-advanced/p1
  • SplicerSplicer Join Date: 2012-04-23 Member: 150952Members
    CrushaK wrote: »
    Splicer wrote: »
    CrushaK wrote: »
    Also ignore that casual players eventually become near comp-level players if they stick around long enough.
    Yes. If they stick around long enough. But they're not, are they? What's the retention rate on new players to this game? Not good.

    This part is not about player acquisition and retention but about balance.
    Everything is about player acquisition and retention. If a change is introduced for balance reasons that hampers player acquisition and retention it is a bad change, even if it was a good balance change. Similarly if an existing mechanic is hampering player acquisition and retention then it is a bad mechanic, even if changing or removing it would negatively effect balance.
    CrushaK wrote: »
    You can't just completely blend out the upper end of the skill spectrum, which is what is original post was referring to. If you do that, you will eventually run into imbalances once you hit a certain level of play. If veteran marines were to win every engagement against veteran aliens, the game would become stale and uninteresting in the upper tiers, eventually causing players to no longer enjoy it once they got "good enough" at it.
    Obviously, but the point I'm trying to make is that if you encounter a situation where you have to choose between appeasing pro players and appeasing casual players then there's no contest. You can replace existing pros with new blood, you can't replace new blood with old pros.
    CrushaK wrote: »
    Balance has to cater to the upper and assume that the general population aspires to reach that level. Mind that I am not saying that you should balance it for the top 1%, nor that you can not include "noob tube"-like stuff to throw casual players a bone. But you can't expect to build all mechanics and balance just on a low level, or else the entire balance above that would collapse.
    Splicer wrote: »
    CrushaK wrote: »
    1) "Ignore your most active player base, who will still play the game on a regular base after the casual players have abandoned you.
    Exactly. The fanboys and comp player base will stay no matter what, so there's no need to cater to them. Oh they'll complain and whine and wring their hands and the dumbing down of the game, but they'll stay. And if they don't, well, they're not the ones pulling in new players.

    I think this is something where UWE's design philosophy would take over. I simply don't see them as the kind of dev who would dumb down the vision of their game just to cater to a wider audience - that would be like betraying their own ideals for a fast buck. They are one of the few remaining dev teams who believe that there is still a market nowadays for games that utilize an oldschool approach and are not afraid of having a somewhat more complex gameplay than your average shooter. Which is something I deeply respect them for.
    I'm not arguing against complexity, I'm arguing against widening the skill gap between different tiers of skill on a combat level. Specifically, my horse in this race is the reverting of the Skulk bite cone to the old, broken model. The complaints from all the "good" players I've heard have all boiled down to "I should have gotten a 75 but I got a 50 stupid hitreg a bloobloobloo", which is not a "balance" consideration. The only pro-newbie/casual argument I've heard for changing it is that the different damage values are confusing until someone explains that more accurate hit = more damage. And if "not obvious upon starting the game" is a criteria to be removing mechanics then there's not going to be a lot of game left. The regression of the skulk bite cone is not just a reduction in complexity, it's a reduction in complexity that would further exaggerate the skill gap between two players of different tiers, and, if implemented, a worrying indication of the direction of the game.
  • Mattk50Mattk50 Join Date: 2013-02-04 Member: 182824Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    ezekel wrote: »
    Mattk50 wrote: »
    Would someone explain to me why fades havent just been removed?

    Because then aliens can do nothing about shotguns, jetpacks, or anything else past 10 minutes of match time

    BT skulk is better than fade, accounting for the fact that you need to survive
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    I was against removing the gradual damage zones myself. But after much playing its clear that its better without them. Also dont forget that the new bitecone is bigger than the 75 damage zone from before. You really dont need superhuman skills to land a bite. Its really only an issue if you judge the bt mod only on its changelog without playing
  • ShadokoShadoko Join Date: 2013-06-15 Member: 185573Members
    edited June 2013
    Does anyone here feels that the new Lerk movement is really annoying and way harder ?
    You also cannot "fly" anymore as a Fade with Shadowstep, which was really interesting.
    Asraniel wrote: »
    Also dont forget that the new bitecone is bigger than the 75 damage zone from before. You really dont need superhuman skills to land a bite.
    This is actually the issue, lowering the skill-cap.
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