Proposed Balance Changes - Natural Selection 2

SystemSystem Join Date: 2013-01-29 Member: 182599Members, Super Administrators, Reinforced - Diamond Posts: 466 vanilla
edited June 2013 in NS2 General Discussion

imageProposed Balance Changes - Natural Selection 2

Natural Selection 2 balance is constantly evolving. Soon, big changes will come to the game. Find out what they are in this article!

Read the full story here


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  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 1,779 admin
    Bump-diddly-ump for comment thread!
    The fastest way to contact me is via @hugh_jeremy on Twitter! Add me on Steam: Strayan. I do not check forum PMs.
    Keep up to date on what is going on with: Unknown Worlds | Natural Selection 2 | Subnautica
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  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester Posts: 1,182 Advanced user
    I am pretty certain that some of the changes listed in that post are factually wrong.

    For instance is Umbra not "tier 2" but "tier 1" since you can get it on the first Hive with 3 Biomass.
    And structures don't increase the Biomass level either anymore.
    Suggestions:
    Tech Path of Hive actually upgrades the Hive itself
    Give Gorges telepathic control over their Bait Ball for Overlord-style commanding of Babblers

    And please allow to turn rooms into emergency-lit or dark versions if infestations grows over an unbuilt or damaged power node socket.
    kalakuja
  • kais_4kais_4 Join Date: 2012-08-31 Member: 157127Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 65
    Sounds awesome! Questions:

    If the crag, shift and shade can always be built, will hives still have to be upgraded to there specific tech tree to build the upgrade buildings?

    What does "'cysts will autobuild once their parent is contructed" actually mean?

    Looking forward to the rollout!
  • gimmicgimmic Join Date: 2013-03-02 Member: 183555Members Posts: 34
    Not sure increasing complexity / learning curve further is a good bet when the game population is dwindling.
    MinimumXaoSalraine_ChiYMICrazy
  • Zomb3hZomb3h Join Date: 2011-01-27 Member: 79241Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 373
    edited June 2013
    I find it incredibly annoying not being able keep up with a marine when I'm biting/swiping them.

    Why should I have to maintain a higher speed than the base-speed to stay within melee range when I've already closed the distance?
    shonan
  • AgielAgiel Join Date: 2006-11-14 Member: 58605Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Subnautica Playtester Posts: 290 Fully active user
    Some parts of that changelog are very outdated. Andi has been slacking off ;)
    Talga Vassternich - AgielTV
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester Posts: 1,182 Advanced user
    kais_4 wrote: »
    Sounds awesome! Questions:

    If the crag, shift and shade can always be built, will hives still have to be upgraded to there specific tech tree to build the upgrade buildings?

    What does "'cysts will autobuild once their parent is contructed" actually mean?

    Looking forward to the rollout!

    Yes, you still need the tech path for the Shells, Veils and Spurs. It really just allows you to build the structures, so you can get cloak, heal and energy at any time, which offers more tactical options in the early game. You can't use a structure's active ability without the respective tech path, though, so no Echo, Ink or Heal Wave without the respective tech path.


    Cysts autobuilding once the parent is constructed basically implies a delay that prevents you from cysting right away to the other side of the map.
    It takes about 4 seconds (unless the Cyst gets help from a Drifter or Gorge) for a cyst to start spreading infestation after it got dropped. The next cyst in the chain won't start this 4 second countdown until the previous cyst actually started to spread infestation. So if you build 4 cysts straight away in a row, it will take the last one 16 seconds before it actually starts spreading infestation.
    Suggestions:
    Tech Path of Hive actually upgrades the Hive itself
    Give Gorges telepathic control over their Bait Ball for Overlord-style commanding of Babblers

    And please allow to turn rooms into emergency-lit or dark versions if infestations grows over an unbuilt or damaged power node socket.
    kais_4
  • ShadokoShadoko Join Date: 2013-06-15 Member: 185573Members Posts: 15
    edited June 2013
    Well, I think one of those changes is REALLY gamebreaking and lowering the skill-cap:
    -disabled gradual melee attacks.
    Having to aim good as an alien is really interesting. That's important to learn how to aim properly as an alien, and not just running/jumping all around while spamming Bite. I personally think this would be a huge mistake, and will make aliens less fun to play... But let's see how the whole change works :)

    I also think that modifying tech trees is a bit too much. Alien's system works really good. You can have a lot of strategies by having to choose one type of first hive.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 3,432 Advanced user
    Gunman121 wrote: »
    I like the early game alien strategy of having to pick what hive you'll upgrade too.

    You still do, I would personally recommend loading up a private server with BT on and going through everything as a comm so you understand the tech trees better, it's actually quite fun.
    76561197996992409.png
    twiliteblue
  • Gunman121Gunman121 Join Date: 2012-02-04 Member: 143616Members, WC 2013 - Supporter Posts: 15
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    Gunman121 wrote: »
    I like the early game alien strategy of having to pick what hive you'll upgrade too.

    You still do, I would personally recommend loading up a private server with BT on and going through everything as a comm so you understand the tech trees better, it's actually quite fun.

    I definitely will. Could you elaborate a bit though? Because in a typical early game, you generally have to pick a crag/shift base and get celerity or carapace to help outpace marines buying say W1/Shotgun. How does the game feel now, with the structural changes -- (Choosing multiple alien structures + building upon them with more tech)

  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 3,432 Advanced user
    Gunman121 wrote: »
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    Gunman121 wrote: »
    I like the early game alien strategy of having to pick what hive you'll upgrade too.

    You still do, I would personally recommend loading up a private server with BT on and going through everything as a comm so you understand the tech trees better, it's actually quite fun.

    I definitely will. Could you elaborate a bit though? Because in a typical early game, you generally have to pick a crag/shift base and get celerity or carapace to help outpace marines buying say W1/Shotgun. How does the game feel now, with the structural changes -- (Choosing multiple alien structures + building upon them with more tech)

    What I mean is, the structures, crag shift shade, are available all the time no matter what, BUT, the upgrades (shells veils spurs) are only available when crag/shift/shade is selected as a hive upgrade.
    76561197996992409.png
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester Posts: 1,182 Advanced user
    Shadoko wrote: »
    Well, I think one of those changes is REALLY gamebreaking and lowering the skill-cap:
    -disabled gradual melee attacks.
    Having to aim good as an alien is really interesting. That's important to learn how to aim properly as an alien, and not just running/jumping all around while spamming Bite. I personally think this would be a huge mistake, and will make aliens less fun to play... But let's see how the whole change works :)

    While you don't have the 25 and 50 damage cones anymore on a Skulk, the 75 bite damage cone is a bit wider to make up for the reduction. So it's not like a straight nerf to Skulks since some bites that would have been 50 damage before are now 75 damage. You should really try it out in game instead of judging the mod just based on what is written somewhere. Many people actually said that they love the this change to gradual attacks since the previous system was rather confusing and it was hard to estimate how injured a marine really was after a fight. Now it's either a hit or no hit.

    I also think that modifying tech trees is a bit too much. Alien's system works really good. You can have a lot of strategies by having to choose one type of first hive.

    ... and you can have even more strategies by making everything available from the start. Being restricted to one structure doesn't have anything to do with strategy. It's simply a limitation that you can only follow strategy X because you needed upgrade Y for your aliens.
    The new system still allows you to utilize the same strategies but adds all the strategies and combinations of them that would be available with the structures from the other tech paths, thus giving you flat out more individual choices instead of forcing you in a direction based on whether or not you wanted Shells or Veils.

    The entire alien tech tree is basically still the same. You just get a lot more options for the early game (such as some abilities on 1 Hive thanks to the new Biomass system), which used to be quite stale for aliens in the past.
    Suggestions:
    Tech Path of Hive actually upgrades the Hive itself
    Give Gorges telepathic control over their Bait Ball for Overlord-style commanding of Babblers

    And please allow to turn rooms into emergency-lit or dark versions if infestations grows over an unbuilt or damaged power node socket.
  • ritualsacrificeritualsacrifice Join Date: 2012-11-14 Member: 171148Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 709 Advanced user
    edited June 2013
    Shadoko wrote: »
    Well, I think one of those changes is REALLY gamebreaking and lowering the skill-cap:
    -disabled gradual melee attacks.
    Having to aim good as an alien is really interesting. That's important to learn how to aim properly as an alien, and not just running/jumping all around while spamming Bite. I personally think this would be a huge mistake, and will make aliens less fun to play... But let's see how the whole change works :)

    I don't think you understand what they meant... the best way I can describe the change is they took the bumpers off the bowling lane, they didn't make the lane bigger. The change actually requires you to aim better now, since the bite-cone is smaller.

    @CrushaK umbra is tier 2, tier 1 would be what you start with (spike + bite).
  • Tom-RTom-R Join Date: 2013-01-09 Member: 178515Members Posts: 24
    edited June 2013
    *You are allowed to disagree. You are not allowed to be a dick about it* --Comprox
    Post edited by Comprox on
    MinimumRobotixangelous
  • HowserHowser UK Join Date: 2010-02-08 Member: 70488Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer Posts: 654 Advanced user
    While there will be tears I think most these changes are generally for the best. I look forward to seeing how NS2 develops over the next few months. Say what you will about alpha days, but they were never boring. I Always felt the last 9 months of no (significant) gamplays changes have meant the game has stagnated in a somewhat flawed state. Bring it on! just mind the wet floor.
    Maybe we can make the 'autistic mod'; a frozen snap shot of the game for everyone who likes the old version?
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester Posts: 1,182 Advanced user
    Actually with the player numbers right now, you could almost say that the forums are indeed the player base, at least the one that still plays the game regularly. The game's population has gone down to 1000 - 500 concurrent players by now, from almost 10000 at the time of the Gorgeous update. The game has become stale, it needs a reboot like this, similar to how NS1 took off after the update that made it NS1 2.0.

    Competitive matches boil down to always same strategies: getting Shotguns, Weapon and Armor upgrades and eventually Jetpacks on marines while aliens always go for Carapace first. There is something seriously flawed in the balance if only one of three tech paths is viable for serious play, which is something the mod addresses on both sides. If you don't realize the issue, fine - but don't expect the devs to just sit there and let it slide until their game dies away. There are a lot of people here right now who only keep playing NS2 at the moment because of the promised changes of the Balance mod, since they are already fed up with the base game and would leave right away if the Balance mod was canceled.

    Way to make a drama about refunds as well. You are not entitled to a refund because a product is not like what you expected. You can't get a refund after watching a movie in a cinema either just because you didn't like it. You got to play the game for 6 months. There are companies that would not even give you a refund if they shut down all servers right away after that time and made the game unplayable for you.
    Suggestions:
    Tech Path of Hive actually upgrades the Hive itself
    Give Gorges telepathic control over their Bait Ball for Overlord-style commanding of Babblers

    And please allow to turn rooms into emergency-lit or dark versions if infestations grows over an unbuilt or damaged power node socket.
    Fen_twiliteblueHowserhalfofaheaven
  • MinimumMinimum Join Date: 2012-12-27 Member: 176382Members Posts: 56
    Tom-R wrote: »
    DEAR UWE

    PLEASE REMEMBER YOUR FORUMS ARE NOT THE PLAYER BASE OF YOUR GAME.

    Are you serious!? Are you actually serious about implementing these changes to the game you worked so hard on and released 6 months ago?

    If so, seriously, give me a refund, FUCK this balance mod. I don't want to play it, and a majority don't either. Seriously, after the new docking, descent and the rest of the shenanigans, I'm really no sure I want to continue playing, which is a shame, because I LOVE NS2, but this is just taking the piss. Come on UWE, I know you don't really want this.

    Actually, I want to punch you guys in the face. That's literally how passionate I feel about this. I know you'll all cry and mock this, but seriously when you implement BT as vanilla, I'm uninstalling, and so are all the guys I know. Which is a real shame, because this game was the last hope of old skool PC games.

    A little brash on your choice of words but I agree with the point that you're trying to make.

    Raising the complexity and respectively the skill curve won't only drive away the little casuals you have left but it will also make sure that the barrier of entry for new players is even higher. There are two reasons why NS2 has been hemorrhaging players: performance issues and an extremely high starting skill curve.

    Please, don't write NS2 off into the pages of history this soon by making this mistake. If the prospect of having a ghost town game isn't enough then perhaps the prospect of losing potential profit will be enough. If BT Mod becomes law I won't be able to recommend this game. If I did I would be a liar. Keep BT Mod exactly how it is: a mod. Focus instead on reducing the barrier of entry for new players but at the same time keeping unique gameplay elements.
    hakenspit
  • Tom-RTom-R Join Date: 2013-01-09 Member: 178515Members Posts: 24
    CrushaK wrote: »

    Way to make a drama about refunds as well. You are not entitled to a refund because a product is not like what you expected. You can't get a refund after watching a movie in a cinema either just because you didn't like it. You got to play the game for 6 months. There are companies that would not even give you a refund if they shut down all servers right away after that time and made the game unplayable for you.

    Hey, dude..

    Grasp the language, the quote of a refund is a metaphorical threat. I.e that one might no invest further, that he's unhappy.

    If you actually thought I wanted a refund, then I can only imagine what kind of world you live in.

    Kine
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester Posts: 1,182 Advanced user
    Tom-R wrote: »
    If you actually thought I wanted a refund, then I can only imagine what kind of world you live in.

    I've been on the internet long enough to know that there are more than enough people who are beyond good and evil and would indeed demand an actual refund over such a thing.
    Suggestions:
    Tech Path of Hive actually upgrades the Hive itself
    Give Gorges telepathic control over their Bait Ball for Overlord-style commanding of Babblers

    And please allow to turn rooms into emergency-lit or dark versions if infestations grows over an unbuilt or damaged power node socket.
  • Fen_Fen_ Join Date: 2013-06-16 Member: 185574Members Posts: 1
    I like almost all of the changes. There's only one that I really immediately question (and one more that I think I must be misunderstanding):

    - cloaked players are always slightly visible

    Maybe my mind will be changed after looking at BTM in-game, but this seems like it virtually removes the ability, and even if it doesn't, I can't imagine this is a good way to balance the mechanic. Why not increase fade time or require less frequent movement to stay invisible?

    And then the note I think I must be misunderstanding:

    - onos movement won’t be blocked by skulks, gorges and lerks anymore

    I read this as meaning that you don't collide with allied players as an Onos (aside from other Onos), but how does this affect these other players? Can your models overlap, leading you to being able to tank bullets for a Gorge hiding inside of you? Does it force movement around the center of your model or something, causing weird push effects on your teammates?
  • SplicerSplicer Join Date: 2012-04-23 Member: 150952Members Posts: 57 Fully active user
    I think removing the graduated bite cone is a mistake. You're not going to get many unskilled players on the BT servers, so you've probably not gotten much accurate feedback on how the less-skilled players will be impacted by losing the 25 and some of the 50 range. Spoiler alert: They're going to be absolutely destroyed. Given that skulks are what less-skilled players spend most of their time playing it will have a seriously nasty impact on casual players.

    The BT server populations are not representative of the game population as a whole. That change would have a major negative impact on the game experience of casual players.
    MinimumSalraine_Chihakenspit
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts Posts: 1,779 admin
    Tom-R wrote: »
    DEAR UWE

    PLEASE REMEMBER YOUR FORUMS ARE NOT THE PLAYER BASE OF YOUR GAME.

    Don't worry about the 'disagrees' on your post Tom. I appreciate your post, I want to hear your thoughts, I want to hear why you don't like these changes, and those of anyone else who feels passionate about all this.
    The fastest way to contact me is via @hugh_jeremy on Twitter! Add me on Steam: Strayan. I do not check forum PMs.
    Keep up to date on what is going on with: Unknown Worlds | Natural Selection 2 | Subnautica
    Chat with the UWE team on Twitter | The best way to be notified about Subnautica updates is to sign up to our development newsletters
    shonanAurOn2Kinedigitaljuice
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester Posts: 1,182 Advanced user
    edited June 2013
    Fen_ wrote: »
    I like almost all of the changes. There's only one that I really immediately question (and one more that I think I must be misunderstanding):

    - cloaked players are always slightly visible

    Maybe my mind will be changed after looking at BTM in-game, but this seems like it virtually removes the ability, and even if it doesn't, I can't imagine this is a good way to balance the mechanic. Why not increase fade time or require less frequent movement to stay invisible?

    It's not as bad as it sounds. I tried it intensely with Sewlek in test environment. And even though I knew where he was, i just didn't pay attention for one second and he slipped away without me noticing that he was still right next to me. So even if you know that there is a cloaked alien nearby, it's incredibly hard to make it out. I once had cloak on a Gorge and two marines walked right next to me through a tight corridor. Twice. And they didn't find me even after I attacked them with spit in the back and then hid around a corner. It also depends on a lot on the patterns of the walls around - a clean surface might make it a little easier to spot you than some rough rocky wall.
    Suggestions:
    Tech Path of Hive actually upgrades the Hive itself
    Give Gorges telepathic control over their Bait Ball for Overlord-style commanding of Babblers

    And please allow to turn rooms into emergency-lit or dark versions if infestations grows over an unbuilt or damaged power node socket.
  • male_fatalitiesmale_fatalities ausns2.org Join Date: 2004-03-06 Member: 27185Members, Constellation Posts: 673 Fully active user
    edited June 2013
    Tom-R aka person who hasn't played BT mod.

    Its very different reading a change log compared to actually playing it.

    Hugh I notice there are still ? on the change log. Is the BT mod being implemented in its entirety or are the ? changes still in the air..

    Also, change log very out of date :( That one is from 1-2 months ago

    PS: As much as I want BT mod to be implemented into vanilla ASAP, I really feel that implementing a content update that has:
    * BT MOD
    * Performance Update
    * Content (biodome & Eclipse)


    Would do absolute wonders for UWE and NS2. I would be screaming from the roof tops about a patch that has 2 new maps, 100+ fps, bhop & walljump combination, rework of balance and alien tech tree, removal of glancing bite! I hope you guys advertise this properly and spread the word through all the appropriate channels.

    Bring on NS2 2.0!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Splicer wrote: »
    I think removing the graduated bite cone is a mistake. You're not going to get many unskilled players on the BT servers, so you've probably not gotten much accurate feedback on how the less-skilled players will be impacted by losing the 25 and some of the 50 range.
    Actually... all of the casual players I've spoken to agree that playing without glancing bite is far easier and less confusing. Atleast they know when they land a bite it does full damage, compared to the 25/50/75 dice roll they've been experiencing. Additionally I would compare the BT 75 bite width to the vanilla 50 bite width. I believe 75 damage went from 0.3 -> 0.7 (not sure on that)
    NS1: Boost|. mf
    NS2: asc . mf-
    KuddlyKalli
  • deadtomedeadtome Join Date: 2013-01-07 Member: 178078Members Posts: 4
    Ya. Making cloaked players always slightly vis seems like just 'giving in' to players who have somehow managed to see cloaked players in non BETA.
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester Posts: 1,182 Advanced user
    Splicer wrote: »
    I think removing the graduated bite cone is a mistake. You're not going to get many unskilled players on the BT servers, so you've probably not gotten much accurate feedback on how the less-skilled players will be impacted by losing the 25 and some of the 50 range. Spoiler alert: They're going to be absolutely destroyed. Given that skulks are what less-skilled players spend most of their time playing it will have a seriously nasty impact on casual players.

    The BT server populations are not representative of the game population as a whole. That change would have a major negative impact on the game experience of casual players.

    Surprisingly enough I see more rookies on Balance mod servers than on the servers I usually play on. It seems to attract them in particular, especially those who didn't even really play the normal game at all before.


    And yes, the ? are still pending. They are most recent changes that even I did not see before, like the additional upgrades for Flamethrowers and Grenade Launchers. From what I heard, Sewlek was just holding updates back for the duration of the Balance Mod Cup so that the teams don't get unfairly surprised by changes that happen between two matches. But after that will the rebalancing likely continue based on how comp players performed in the cup. It's the first time we can really get that much testing of this stuff from coordinated teams that come up with new strategies.
    Suggestions:
    Tech Path of Hive actually upgrades the Hive itself
    Give Gorges telepathic control over their Bait Ball for Overlord-style commanding of Babblers

    And please allow to turn rooms into emergency-lit or dark versions if infestations grows over an unbuilt or damaged power node socket.
  • RobotixRobotix Join Date: 2013-02-20 Member: 183222Members Posts: 201
    CrushaK wrote: »
    Splicer wrote: »
    I think removing the graduated bite cone is a mistake. You're not going to get many unskilled players on the BT servers, so you've probably not gotten much accurate feedback on how the less-skilled players will be impacted by losing the 25 and some of the 50 range. Spoiler alert: They're going to be absolutely destroyed. Given that skulks are what less-skilled players spend most of their time playing it will have a seriously nasty impact on casual players.

    The BT server populations are not representative of the game population as a whole. That change would have a major negative impact on the game experience of casual players.

    Surprisingly enough I see more rookies on Balance mod servers than on the servers I usually play on. It seems to attract them in particular, especially those who didn't even really play the normal game at all before.


    And yes, the ? are still pending. They are most recent changes that even I did not see before, like the additional upgrades for Flamethrowers and Grenade Launchers. From what I heard, Sewlek was just holding updates back for the duration of the Balance Mod Cup so that the teams don't get unfairly surprised by changes that happen between two matches. But after that will the rebalancing likely continue based on how comp players performed in the cup. It's the first time we can really get that much testing of this stuff from coordinated teams that come up with new strategies.

    I believe the reason you see a lot of rookies on BT mod servers is that the "quick join" function often puts them in BT mod servers. And then they quit because they don't like it.
    MinimumSplicer
  • kalakujakalakuja Join Date: 2012-09-11 Member: 159045Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter Posts: 380
    At last you add something worth playing over. Good job
  • SplicerSplicer Join Date: 2012-04-23 Member: 150952Members Posts: 57 Fully active user
    edited June 2013
    CrushaK wrote: »
    Splicer wrote: »
    I think removing the graduated bite cone is a mistake. You're not going to get many unskilled players on the BT servers, so you've probably not gotten much accurate feedback on how the less-skilled players will be impacted by losing the 25 and some of the 50 range. Spoiler alert: They're going to be absolutely destroyed. Given that skulks are what less-skilled players spend most of their time playing it will have a seriously nasty impact on casual players.

    The BT server populations are not representative of the game population as a whole. That change would have a major negative impact on the game experience of casual players.

    Surprisingly enough I see more rookies on Balance mod servers than on the servers I usually play on. It seems to attract them in particular, especially those who didn't even really play the normal game at all before.
    I'm not talking about rookies, I'm talking about casual players. Players who don't have the free time required to get "good". I played through the old tiny 75 bite cone and the old giant 75 bite cone. The former drastically increased the skill-gap between a marine and a lower skilled alien, and the latter did the same for an alien vs a lower skilled marine.

    That's what's really confusing me, we already did the flat-75 cone-size tweak dance. It's advancing backwards to something that was shown not to work.

    e: Also what Robotix said. I'd love to see the numbers on churn vs mods played, if they exist.

    e2: There's a bunch of stuff on that list that I either like the sound of or am interested in trying out, and a few I don't like (camo nerf again?), but increasing the minimum skill level required to play the Alien starter class is just such a terrible idea.
    hakenspit
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