New Docking

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Comments

  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
    Robotix is a jealous hater. Leave dux alone.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited June 2013
    edit: looks like our avatars are a bit angry at eachother too
    LMAO that had me rolling for a bit, thanks for that!

    Edit: :-t Those who believe they know best about map design/layout can always contribute to the product they love by applying to the map testing team.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    @mushookees wow.. typically I can always find flays in any layout.. but thats actually pretty solid as far as big picture goes.
    Two small things:

    1) i'd move that luggage conveyor belt more north, to put it more in the center of the room, lessening long LOS coming from bar.
    2) Landing pad never worked well with an RT, so this will have to have a lot of thought put into it. I suggest a hanger maybe?
  • amoralamoral Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Members
    mushookees wrote: »
    cafe and terminal need a baby

    19id6.jpeg

    cafe spawn would be absurdly weak
  • CalegoCalego Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181848Members, NS2 Map Tester
    I haven't played new docking yet (out of town). But I figure I might as well chip in about that theoretical layout. That cafe-terminal tech point is just a tad huge. A push on that location would be nigh on imposible if its anything like how the place is now.
  • amoralamoral Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Members
    my main complaint is that the north side of the map is too convoluted, also, generator is cramped as all hell.
  • BentRingBentRing Join Date: 2003-03-04 Member: 14318Members
    Robotix wrote: »
    The problem with the Docking changes is that the entire focus of your work was on competitive play, which is vastly different from public play.
    Robotix wrote: »
    Docking worked great in public matches. There was no reason to make major changes to that map from a public point of view. No spawns were inherently stronger than any other spawns. Pretty much every room found a multitude of uses with plenty of action. Docking was a fun map that stood out from the rest. And now it is gone because it wasn't "competitive" enough.

    I don't mind the changes but I love having lots of maps to choose from. Could you design a map for us pubbers please?
  • Side1Bu2Rnz9Side1Bu2Rnz9 Join Date: 2012-10-16 Member: 162510Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    I too would love to see what amazing map Robotix can make... I mean it's obvious he knows what he's doing 100%! He's pretty much got it all figured out... Please share.
  • delta78delta78 Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178131Members
    Let me start with this statement: Docking is my first map I played and my favorite. I haven't played a game on it yet, but I checked it in an empty server. Esthetically it is way better than the old version, in my opinion. The rooms feel larger and the entire map feels bigger, which is a pro in my book. There are many places, from where the aliens can ambush and have the edge. For, example, Maintenance and Stability. However, Courtyard would prove to be an interesting battleground, where marines can get to high places and shoot the aliens from afar. It will be tricky for the bugs but I think, there is enough cover for them to get close and personal.

    Overall, I liked the changes. However, I'll have to play a few rounds on it to say whats I don't like about it. I will provide feedback soon! :)
  • ChrisAUSChrisAUS Join Date: 2012-11-17 Member: 172108Members
    edited June 2013
    I think in general the better you can balance a map for competitive play the better it translates to public play. I don't understand the argument that the new Docking has been designed solely with competitive players in mind. What argument is there that the maps now ruined for pub play simply because it's moving in a more balanced direction overall?

    How are two even teams in a pub on Docking going to find the map broken in ways that two comp teams won't?

    You can probably pick a few other e-sports games and find that the most popular maps are ones used in competitive play.

    Dust2/Inferno
    Bloodrun/Furious Heights/Campgrounds
    Summit/Tram
    Lost Temple/Daybreak

    I think the reason behind that is once you get a good balanced map it becomes fun for everyone. It filters up from lowest level to highest level of play. There are exceptions though, I have a weakness for playing Mineshaft. :P


    EDIT: (From what I said earlier about South West area of map):
    South West has always been a problem. Aliens rarely if ever took it as a Hive location, it was always dead ground for marines who had locker/terminal and if not it became the 2nd tech point for marines while they turtled out for exos etc. (Generally from my experience playing pub).

    Arguing that as a point now just because of the changes to other areas of the map holds no merit.
  • AegisXIAegisXI Join Date: 2012-02-11 Member: 144985Members
    edited June 2013
    I do like 4 tech points on the map certainly. Maint and stability is certainly nice for aliens, but I in my honest opinion feel as if starting generator makes it feel like im sandwiched.

    EDIT: When I mean sandwhiched, I would like to have the rooms a little bigger not many places to hide
  • Internet_EmperorInternet_Emperor Join Date: 2013-06-08 Member: 185512Members
    Would have been great to not change docking and made a ns2_docking_v2 instead of making everybody mad. Problem is that then nobody would play the new map because on the 32 man server everybody is already sick of it already as its nothing more than descent2_electric_boogaloo.

    [ViralXK already posted a mod that turns ns2_docking into the original version.]
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited June 2013
    No one gives a scheit about the 32 player 'dregs of society' server.

    I am outraged I no longer get to play the original version of tram and summit why is there no ns2_tram_v1.23 available UWE?
  • AngeluszAngelusz Harmonic entropist Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
    Even though I'm probably a bitbiased, I'm very happy with the docking changes and salute Dux and all of his hard work. Personally, I prefer 5 tech points as well, but the layout is so much better now.

    Will have to play more games on it to be sure how it develops, but my initial reaction is: awesome!
  • DaxxDaxx Join Date: 2002-04-16 Member: 460Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    mushookees wrote: »
    cafe and terminal need a baby

    Cafe/term would need to be smaller/merged a bit more, but otherwise that's a great looking layout.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    edited June 2013
    Here's what to do.

    -Shrink courtyard
    -Place cafe between marine spawn and courtyard
    -Make the route to bar more direct
    -Make the route from bar to locker less direct

    Tah-dah!

    Oh, and what architect in the world would put a cafeteria in the terminal. That's just tacky
  • ezekelezekel Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Members, NS2 Map Tester
    edited June 2013
    Robotix wrote: »
    To be completely honest, they aren't really helping the situation.

    Sometimes you need to get aggressive to get the point across to people who just don't understand, much like the real world buddy; you keep not understanding something I'm going to to get physical and throw a nice right hook and send you down to stars ave.

    People are saying, this and that sucks but not providing any reasons as to why; this is considered garbage feedback
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    edited June 2013
    Daxx wrote: »
    mushookees wrote: »
    cafe and terminal need a baby

    Cafe/term would need to be smaller/merged a bit more, but otherwise that's a great looking layout.

    Yeah, merging cafe with terminal produces a pretty interesting layout indeed. Maybe also shorten the distance from cafe/term to departures a little bit and remove one of those res nodes in between?

    As it is, my first impressions of the new docking are pretty positive, but cafe and bar do seem a bit out of the way atm.
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Wow....people are acting like there can never be any more changes to a computer file......

    Changes give information which bring more changes.

    Who says this is the final version of Docking?
  • BottBott Join Date: 2013-03-01 Member: 183509Members
    edited June 2013
    Neoken wrote: »
    Daxx wrote: »
    mushookees wrote: »
    cafe and terminal need a baby

    Cafe/term would need to be smaller/merged a bit more, but otherwise that's a great looking layout.

    Yeah, merging cafe with terminal produces a pretty interesting layout indeed. Maybe also shorten the distance from cafe/term to departures a little bit and remove one of those res nodes in between?

    As it is, my first impressions of the new docking are pretty positive, but cafe and bar do seem a bit out of the way atm.
    Still wording it like it was serves no purpose other than to get a message across of "I am right because I'm right, fuck you".
    And I believe it doesn't requires much else than to separate public from competitive if this map is what comp wants.
    IMO as it stands the map has very little soul, just a bunch of random small rooms reminding me too much of decent.
  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    hozz wrote: »
    @dux

    A lot of unique spots (like the easily camped vent from Departures to Stability, or the long hallway in maintenance, or Ball Court which is Skulk hell, or the annoyingly exposed power node in release build 228 Departures ... the entire map was made of unique spots!) created interesting gameplay, even if some were technically "imbalanced". People don't mind these "imbalances", they like them (unless they were too bad, and some were consequentially improved/removed). These spots make maps interesting in the first place. Making the map more fair and balanced should not be done by watering down these spots one by one, but by balancing the inequalities of the map so overall no team or spawn location is too biased. Single rooms can be "imbalanced", because being interesting/exciting/unique trumps being "balanced" (except for comp players :p)

    Most of what you are describing here is just a byproduct of familiarity. Locations are "memorable" literally because you "remember" them from previous games. When docking was first released, nobody had any association with different parts of the map being annoying or difficult. They built that up over time after playing many games on it. The same will be true of this iteration of docking. As an example, marines camping the western entrance to departures are going to be super super annoying. They can just gun you down in the choke of the door on the walkway, and set up a comfortable base behind it. This is going to make for a lot of interesting battles, but nobody knows it yet. Give it time.

    Almost every time a new map is released once a game is mature, people say they don't like it. This is independent of the quality of the map. It's just a matter of familiarity. The map seems to lack the same "soul" of previous maps even if everything about it is objectively better. That "soul" is just the number of games you've already played on it and the memories you've built up there.

    @dux I think what you've done with the top right of the map is fantastic. Courtyard went from being a big pile of crates to being an epic location. The new entrance to departures is really slick, and I've already had more interesting battles in the new maintenance than I ever had in the old one. The one thing I'd say is that I feel like somehow the lighting got less saturated in generator hive and the surrounding rooms. I remember those rooms as being distinctly blue, and I miss that now.
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    mushookees wrote: »
    cafe and terminal need a baby

    19id6.jpeg

    This looks nice because at the moment with the marine spawn in terminal the quick entrance into courtyard, the shortcut into lockers is back, maintenance is ridiculously easy to set up LoS in with marines like wise with stability.

    Having looked at it, a simple vent from generator to the north west corner of maintenance RT and moving the stability vent to the south west corner of Stability would make it a hell of a lot better for aliens to come in.

    The problem with stability was that it could be sniped. Aliens did have a relatively good chance to engage with the vent from generator to jump at the snipers.
    The problem with stability now is that it's too quick to get to the first engagement spot and then too easy to setup a good position inside stability for marines and hard to engage for aliens.

    Add/change the vents as I mentioned, or at least consider them, and you remove some of the strength of the marine positioning and the snipability.



  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited June 2013
    mushookees wrote: »
    cafe and terminal need a baby
    layout
    FvyBMHT.jpg
    Locker rooms need to be a bit more west and the cafe/terminal more north for this to work out imo (moving generator more south wouldn't hurt either). Otherwise, any alien team spawing in locker or departures would be getting an essentially free second tech node in generator.
  • SanthoranSanthoran Join Date: 2013-04-14 Member: 184809Members
    Well its just the new docking isnt Docking anymore. I dont say no changes ever to Docking, or no changes at all to the game.

    But why the hell did you _>remove<_ docking ?

    It isnt Docking anymore. 4 Techs, heavily changed layouts, generic looking, the feeling of Docking is gone.
    And on my opinion, the current balance is far worst then before, yea go on and make it comp. only,so make a new map, call it Docking 2 and let the old Docking be as it was, or make minor balance changes. Docking is now the least favorite map , of course that should tell ya what.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    Everyone loved ns_bast right away too
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited June 2013
    Santhoran wrote: »
    yea go on and make it comp. only,
    Please stop spreading this misinformation, the mapper has already explained that the changes were not made for comp only.


    Edit: My only feedback after PT games and pub games : Its just too easy to lock down Maintenance and pressure generator, i feel. Maybe its the long hallway between that and gen that bottlenecks aliens?
    Not sure.. All i know is.. at the start of the round if me and one other marine sprint to maintenance we can do an amazing amount of damage, drawing the team's focus on us while we shoot them like fish in a barrel. Wish that vent led into a safe place in maintenance, and not the room after.
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    Well done UWE, you have managed to break one of the key rules of community management. Dont get involved in forum arguments.
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