Personally I think swapping Landing Pad with Terminal would help with the extreme marine pressure. Yes its just my personal experience but I haven't had a Docking game since the patch when live that the alien team stood a chance. It was just a constant stream of rines from Terminal > Courtyard: everywhere. It's just so damn fast and easy.
It is quite obvious that the same designer(s) of descent re-designed docking. If you don't know what descent is, it is the new map that is so bad that most server admins remove it from the rotation. So, now there are two maps to remove from the rotation. The ONLY thing that needed to change in docking was stability. It was too easy for marines to snipe the RT. Please roll this one back guys.
Old docking is way WAY worse than descent, haven't played the new one yet but if you were removing descent and not docking BEFORE the update due to balance then you're doing it wrong.
Friendly reminder: there aren't many maps out there that have a central hub which ISN'T in a comfortable position to assault multiple resnodes. If something, the whole northern part of the map seems horribly alien biased in way of geometry. Those corridors reek of dead marines, skulks ambushes and clogged bottlenecks full of hydras.
It is quite obvious that the same designer(s) of descent re-designed docking. If you don't know what descent is, it is the new map that is so bad that most server admins remove it from the rotation. So, now there are two maps to remove from the rotation. The ONLY thing that needed to change in docking was stability. It was too easy for marines to snipe the RT. Please roll this one back guys.
Old docking is way WAY worse than descent, haven't played the new one yet but if you were removing descent and not docking BEFORE the update due to balance then you're doing it wrong.
Pubs. Old docking is more fun to play on. Descent sucks all the fun out of the game and kills servers repeatedly (note: "fun" is obviously an opinion but killing servers is a verifiable fact). It's not a balance concern at all, it's "how much do people like playing on this map". Map balance in pubs barely even matters unless you have a spot where one person can sit as a gorge and deny a base or something similar.
Friendly reminder: there aren't many maps out there that have a central hub which ISN'T in a comfortable position to assault multiple resnodes. If something, the whole northern part of the map seems horribly alien biased in way of geometry. Those corridors reek of dead marines, skulks ambushes and clogged bottlenecks full of hydras.
And THAT is why I don't like the new version of the map. Wide open "useless" areas (just like descent), and way too many unassailable gorge fort spots.
I also don't like 4 techs regardless of map layout, it's too easy to lock down 3 and deny the other team from ever having an interesting game at all. On a 5 tech map locking down 4 points is practically impossible without massive stacking, which means both teams will always have a second point and some advanced techs.
So.... Am I the only one who likes descent? I personally find it to be fine. Drone bay is cramped, but other than that, no complaints. Plaza in particular seems well designed.
So.... Am I the only one who likes descent? I personally find it to be fine. Drone bay is cramped, but other than that, no complaints. Plaza in particular seems well designed.
I like Descent. There aren't any notable flaws with the map as it currently stands.
It is quite obvious that the same designer(s) of descent re-designed docking.
No, please take that foot out of your mouth.
The changes in docking were to address the unfair siege issues with lockers and departures and the importance of stability along with simplicity of owning up maintenance. To say stability was the only real problem isn't really true. Of course I was expecting the typical knee jerk reaction of "it sucks" but all the games I saw in the map playtesting sessions played really well and all the feedback was positive to the changes. But what I've come to learn is: if map testing says it's good, everyone else (the forum) will say it's pants. But I'm also aware of the fact that the map testing guys (nexil /dn) are a lot more familiar with the map than the current public kneejerkers. As I have said in previous posts, if everyone is too upset about the removal of Cafeteria as a "free" tech point, I'll add it back in. No more tears. Johnson's baby's no more tears for us Euros.
However, Let me say: I appreciate feedback. What I don't much care for though is idle comments of "I like the old one" I spent over 3 months reworking the north side of the map, pulling steepness nights to get it done in time so I could move onto the new Biodome map. To see the time invested so easily dismissed is rather disheartening. Do I want a medal? No, of course not! But it pays to keep it constructive. And all the unnecessary hate against descent is also uncalled for. Jona worked just as hard as any other of us mappers to bring that map to where it is.
It is quite obvious that the same designer(s) of descent re-designed docking.
No, please take that foot out of your mouth.
The changes in docking were to address the unfair siege issues with lockers and departures and the importance of stability along with simplicity of owning up maintenance. To say stability was the only real problem isn't really true. Of course I was expecting the typical knee jerk reaction of "it sucks" but all the games I saw in the map playtesting sessions played really well and all the feedback was positive to the changes. But what I've come to learn is: if map testing says it's good, everyone else (the forum) will say it's pants. But I'm also aware of the fact that the map testing guys (nexil /dn) are a lot more familiar with the map than the current public kneejerkers. As I have said in previous posts, if everyone is too upset about the removal of Cafeteria as a "free" tech point, I'll add it back in. No more tears. Johnson's baby's no more tears for us Euros.
However, Let me say: I appreciate feedback. What I don't much care for though is idle comments of "I like the old one" I spent over 3 months reworking the north side of the map, pulling steepness nights to get it done in time so I could move onto the new Biodome map. To see the time invested so easily dismissed is rather disheartening. Do I want a medal? No, of course not! But it pays to keep it constructive. And all the unnecessary hate against descent is also uncalled for. Jona worked just as hard as any other of us mappers to bring that map to where it is.
The problem with the Docking changes is that the entire focus of your work was on competitive play, which is vastly different from public play. It would have worked out fine if you had just kept the new version of Docking for competitive play only and not destroyed the most popular map on public servers.
To add another knee jerk reaction but on a more positive side I just had my first pub game 20 min ago and it was a 40 min rumble (24 player server). After taking techpoints and loosing them right back to the marines, after defending against exo and jetpack pushes and later loosing to them in another location, and after being down to 1 hive we (aliens) ended up coming back and taking the win after we took terminal and generator hives. It was a epic game. I'm loving the new 4 map docking so far.
I hope ever yone gives it a chance, I haven't had 1 bad game on it yet between map testing, play testing and pub.
The problem with the Docking changes is that the entire focus of your work was on competitive play, which is vastly different from public play. It would have worked out fine if you had just kept the new version of Docking for competitive play only and not destroyed the most popular map on public servers.
No it wasn't the entire focus, how do you come to that conclusion? And I destroyed the most popular map on public servers? again more strong words. I made the changes to docking for both the benefit of competitive and public matches. I have made the occasional comment that I wanted docking to play better competitively if at all possible, but I never had the intention of destroying it on the public side of things either.
As I have said in previous posts, if everyone is too upset about the removal of Cafeteria as a "free" tech point, I'll add it back in. No more tears. Johnson's baby's no more tears for us Euros.
Please wait before doing so. I'm sure people will adapt...
But as I said in my previous post I still believe the bottom left spot needs more work. I'll add to the "spaciousness" argument that considering a round circle (yeah.... I know), there is 2 RT between Locker and Terminal, while only one between terminal and departure. Asymmetry can be good; but it still feels strange down there in that west part.
I love the new map, I am pretty crummy so I get stomped regardless of my team, but I feel like I can get around better and the rooms are more fun to fight in.
I agree though, that the bottom of the map feels like a lot of wasted space. I love 4 Tech Point maps so my suggestion would be to flip Terminal and Caf, and make the walk from Terminal (where caf was) to bar a little longer. I would also expand Back Alley as well then so Lockers doesn't become the "Free Tech Point" for marines. Or as was suggested make Caf a normal sized room and\or fill it up with more stuff.
The problem with the Docking changes is that the entire focus of your work was on competitive play, which is vastly different from public play. It would have worked out fine if you had just kept the new version of Docking for competitive play only and not destroyed the most popular map on public servers.
No it wasn't the entire focus, how do you come to that conclusion? And I destroyed the most popular map on public servers? again more strong words. I made the changes to docking for both the benefit of competitive and public matches. I have made the occasional comment that I wanted docking to play better competitively if at all possible, but I never had the intention of destroying it on the public side of things either.
Docking worked great in public matches. There was no reason to make major changes to that map from a public point of view. No spawns were inherently stronger than any other spawns. Pretty much every room found a multitude of uses with plenty of action. Docking was a fun map that stood out from the rest. And now it is gone because it wasn't "competitive" enough.
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
No, the old docking was crap for public and competitive which is why it was changed. But please don't let me get in the way of your crusade against competitive players, like we all sit around and are conspiring with UWE to bring down pub play.
We actually play pub as well and would like to see that excel, whereas you actively hate one segment of the community.
The problem with the Docking changes is that the entire focus of your work was on competitive play, which is vastly different from public play. It would have worked out fine if you had just kept the new version of Docking for competitive play only and not destroyed the most popular map on public servers.
No it wasn't the entire focus, how do you come to that conclusion? And I destroyed the most popular map on public servers? again more strong words. I made the changes to docking for both the benefit of competitive and public matches. I have made the occasional comment that I wanted docking to play better competitively if at all possible, but I never had the intention of destroying it on the public side of things either.
you know, probably because you specifically named two competitive teams as map testers without mention of anyone else, a general statement like "and others", or any implication of 'average' play testers. just maaybe. edit: in all honesty, all i've seen about docking has been about "making it competitive" (yes, even in places other than that thread), but this could very well just be coincidence, as I don't read every post of every thread.
you shouldn't get so passive aggressive about people commenting on what you wrote, imo.
Those are the two teams who are the specific map testers, who am I supposed to mention as map testers? The baby jebus? And I mention them not for some idle fun but because there are players within those teams who know what they are talking about and provide valuable feedback? Unlike some of the posts in this thread.
Those are the two teams who are the specific map testers, who am I supposed to mention as map testers? The baby jebus? And I mention them not for some idle fun but because there are players within those teams who know what they are talking about and provide valuable feedback? Unlike some of the posts in this thread.
my point was that you shouldn't get all angry and shit when people comment on the only information they have (what you tell them).
IN MY OPINION AND WITH NO ACTUAL DATA TO BACK UP MY OVERBLOWN AND EXAGGERATED STATEMENTS Docking was the best NS2 map, now it's one of the worst and least favorite maps. Bring back the old docking.....
Just wanted to correct that for you.
Really we love all this highly constructive and helpful feedback regarding the Docking changes, please keep it coming.
From a play perspective I've enjoyed Docking so far. My only comment would be to have included a bit more "personality" to some of the new areas on the north side. Some of the levels, while attractive, need something to be a bit more distinctive (even if its tables, workbenches) just something to make it look less like another room with pipes and steam and more of something that looks like it serves a specific pupose.
I agree with what someone said earlier about cafe. It looks like the tech point was removed but nothing was done to make it look like a real cafe.
I know that it is mostly about how the map plays, but one of the reasons I really enjoyed Docking was how each of the areas was designed to look like it served a purpose.
I mean half of the reason I got into NS in the first place was for its atmosphere.
I also want to make clear I've actually had some really entertaining games on the new map. So far I like the new layout and respect the work that went into its redesign. My critique is purely aesthetic.
Comments
Old docking is way WAY worse than descent, haven't played the new one yet but if you were removing descent and not docking BEFORE the update due to balance then you're doing it wrong.
Pubs. Old docking is more fun to play on. Descent sucks all the fun out of the game and kills servers repeatedly (note: "fun" is obviously an opinion but killing servers is a verifiable fact). It's not a balance concern at all, it's "how much do people like playing on this map". Map balance in pubs barely even matters unless you have a spot where one person can sit as a gorge and deny a base or something similar.
And THAT is why I don't like the new version of the map. Wide open "useless" areas (just like descent), and way too many unassailable gorge fort spots.
I also don't like 4 techs regardless of map layout, it's too easy to lock down 3 and deny the other team from ever having an interesting game at all. On a 5 tech map locking down 4 points is practically impossible without massive stacking, which means both teams will always have a second point and some advanced techs.
I like Descent. There aren't any notable flaws with the map as it currently stands.
However I like the stability remake, its not the be-all/end-all it used to be.
No, please take that foot out of your mouth.
The changes in docking were to address the unfair siege issues with lockers and departures and the importance of stability along with simplicity of owning up maintenance. To say stability was the only real problem isn't really true. Of course I was expecting the typical knee jerk reaction of "it sucks" but all the games I saw in the map playtesting sessions played really well and all the feedback was positive to the changes. But what I've come to learn is: if map testing says it's good, everyone else (the forum) will say it's pants. But I'm also aware of the fact that the map testing guys (nexil /dn) are a lot more familiar with the map than the current public kneejerkers. As I have said in previous posts, if everyone is too upset about the removal of Cafeteria as a "free" tech point, I'll add it back in. No more tears. Johnson's baby's no more tears for us Euros.
However, Let me say: I appreciate feedback. What I don't much care for though is idle comments of "I like the old one" I spent over 3 months reworking the north side of the map, pulling steepness nights to get it done in time so I could move onto the new Biodome map. To see the time invested so easily dismissed is rather disheartening. Do I want a medal? No, of course not! But it pays to keep it constructive. And all the unnecessary hate against descent is also uncalled for. Jona worked just as hard as any other of us mappers to bring that map to where it is.
The problem with the Docking changes is that the entire focus of your work was on competitive play, which is vastly different from public play. It would have worked out fine if you had just kept the new version of Docking for competitive play only and not destroyed the most popular map on public servers.
I hope ever yone gives it a chance, I haven't had 1 bad game on it yet between map testing, play testing and pub.
No it wasn't the entire focus, how do you come to that conclusion? And I destroyed the most popular map on public servers? again more strong words. I made the changes to docking for both the benefit of competitive and public matches. I have made the occasional comment that I wanted docking to play better competitively if at all possible, but I never had the intention of destroying it on the public side of things either.
Please wait before doing so. I'm sure people will adapt...
But as I said in my previous post I still believe the bottom left spot needs more work. I'll add to the "spaciousness" argument that considering a round circle (yeah.... I know), there is 2 RT between Locker and Terminal, while only one between terminal and departure. Asymmetry can be good; but it still feels strange down there in that west part.
I agree though, that the bottom of the map feels like a lot of wasted space. I love 4 Tech Point maps so my suggestion would be to flip Terminal and Caf, and make the walk from Terminal (where caf was) to bar a little longer. I would also expand Back Alley as well then so Lockers doesn't become the "Free Tech Point" for marines. Or as was suggested make Caf a normal sized room and\or fill it up with more stuff.
Docking worked great in public matches. There was no reason to make major changes to that map from a public point of view. No spawns were inherently stronger than any other spawns. Pretty much every room found a multitude of uses with plenty of action. Docking was a fun map that stood out from the rest. And now it is gone because it wasn't "competitive" enough.
We actually play pub as well and would like to see that excel, whereas you actively hate one segment of the community.
oooook. locker marine spawn was perfectly fine man, yeah.
you know, probably because you specifically named two competitive teams as map testers without mention of anyone else, a general statement like "and others", or any implication of 'average' play testers. just maaybe. edit: in all honesty, all i've seen about docking has been about "making it competitive" (yes, even in places other than that thread), but this could very well just be coincidence, as I don't read every post of every thread.
you shouldn't get so passive aggressive about people commenting on what you wrote, imo.
According to NS2Stats, Locker Rooms spawn was perfectly in line with the other spawns for both sides.
http://ns2stats.org/map/map/3
my point was that you shouldn't get all angry and shit when people comment on the only information they have (what you tell them).
calm down there, kiddo.
probably should have went with cowboy, though.
edit: looks like our avatars are a bit angry at eachother too
Really we love all this highly constructive and helpful feedback regarding the Docking changes, please keep it coming.
--Cory
To be completely honest, they aren't really helping the situation.
I agree with what someone said earlier about cafe. It looks like the tech point was removed but nothing was done to make it look like a real cafe.
I know that it is mostly about how the map plays, but one of the reasons I really enjoyed Docking was how each of the areas was designed to look like it served a purpose.
I mean half of the reason I got into NS in the first place was for its atmosphere.
I also want to make clear I've actually had some really entertaining games on the new map. So far I like the new layout and respect the work that went into its redesign. My critique is purely aesthetic.
Haters will be haters, most people hate change and most of all people hate having to relearn something.
It's still true.