Is Ns Inherently Eliteist ?

reborebo Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2734Members
<div class="IPBDescription">and will this restrict growth of the mod</div> Due to the admittedly steep learning curve for NS, is the game inherently eliteist or maybe more specifically are the regular players and community always going to be elitist.

By eliteist I mean an absolute disdain for newbs and poor tactical decisions. Weve all seen the gorge barraged with insults for building sensory and the commander who is called all sorts of names for making 7 turrets in the base. Is this the destiny of the mod, will it limit growth, and if so is it a bad thing?

Personally as long as the 'fun' element remains im sure the mod will continue to attract new players. Altho is it possible for the mod to remain fun with an RTS type system that means there will always be an optimum strategy to winning (which by definitions newbys will not know about)?
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Comments

  • Teufel_EldritchTeufel_Eldritch Join Date: 2002-01-28 Member: 124Members
    As long as there are idiots there will be ppl that believe they are not idiots and will sneer, insult, taunt, tease, berate, etc. those that are idiots.....or those they only <i>think</i> are idiots.
  • MMZ_TorakMMZ_Torak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Members
    If by elitest you mean team player, then yes it's elitest. A majority of the problems people have with the game stem from a lack of team work. Solve that and you will see awesome games and a fairly balanced mod. Too many people play NS like DM, only thinking of their needs. (Comm give me a JP and a welder and an HMG and I will pwn). Let the comm make the decisions. "I'm playing gorge no matter what you say! How do I build a Defense chamber?" Don't play gorge if you don't know how. Sometimes your individual wants have to take a back seat to the greater plan in the game. Yes the game should be about fun, but losing repeatedly isn't fun. Doing what you want despite the best interests of the team is not fun.
  • 0range0range Join Date: 2002-11-28 Member: 10140Members
    yes.

    I used to be a good guy when it came to noobs but for some reason a lot of new players will not listen to their more experienced teammates.. Since ns is a team game that means that noobs can easily ruin a game for their whole team. I am more than willing to help new players that actually want to learn and can actually listen but noobs that go gorge when everyone just spent 10 minutes explaining why they shouldnt just **obscenity** me off. I now lose my temper a lot faster with noobs simply because of the overwhelming number of stupid, hard-headed ones that i've encountered.

    So, yes, since ns is so dependent on good teamwork it will always have a more "elitist" leaning. One noobie can ruin a game for either side. Experienced players have probably experienced this more than once so noobs automatically get looked at in a bad light...
  • ImmacolataImmacolata Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2140Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    In my opinion it isnt. It has less demand for individual skill (comm excepted) and more for cooperation. As in all these online games, there will be a stratification of players into layers of competence. But I found aliens and their interfae intimidating at start, but really, it took me perhaps 3 1-hour games to get to know it all very well. As marine it's even easier. The tough part is learning the maps by memory.
  • SoulSkorpionSoulSkorpion Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
    Yes there is a steep learning curve, no NS is no more elitist than any other game. Well... it is and it isn't. Most games have four tiers: the newbies, the average players, the skilled, and the elite. NS has not been around long enough for it to have its elite bracket.

    I don't think NS is elitist. First of all, marine isn't hard to learn to play. Second of all, while Kharaa is harder to learn there are still niches for newbies. One of the best games of NS I've ever played was one in which our main gorge was a newbie, but was willing to learn and follow advice. We ended up winning.
  • DeathjesterDeathjester Join Date: 2002-11-26 Member: 10030Members
    everthign gets eaten by somethign out of the eliteism paradigm.

    find a group in ur strata, and play with them. problem solved.
  • MMZ_TorakMMZ_Torak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Members
    edited January 2003
    I don't mind the ignorant player, ignorance is simply a lack of knowledge and can be over come. It's the selfish n00b that needs to be drawn and quatered. "Shut up, it's my res and you can't tell me how to spend it!" is one of my favorite "Calls of the n00b". Everyone was a new player at one point, learning the game and acting in a team fashion are what seperates the n00bs from the new players. New players are fine, n00bs should all burn in hell.

    <u>n00b</u>: <i>noun</i> 1) a person who, despite knowledge and instruction, persists in doing the wrong thing because "it's their game and they can play however they want"
  • Umbraed_MonkeyUmbraed_Monkey Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9922Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--MMZ>Torak+Jan 4 2003, 12:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MMZ>Torak @ Jan 4 2003, 12:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Comm give me a JP and a welder and an HMG and I will pwn<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> its sad how many time i hear the EXACT same thing (pretty much word for word..)

    NS does not have a steep learning curve...have you noticed how quickly you respawn (or the fact that you respawn at all)? ANY mistake (outside of gorg/comm mistakes, that is..) does not cost you much, you just lose your current weapons/armor/upgrades/evolutions. Other than that, you are ready to play/learn again.
  • MMZNastyDwarfMMZNastyDwarf Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10611Members
    Learning and being ignorant are completely different. If I hear one more jackass tell me or anyone else that commands their list of wants (not needs) I'm going to bring a rage down upon them like never seen before !!! Seriously speaking I dont mind helping people out and I dont mind people making suggestions but people who dont listen and do what we all call "the rambo" then they need to move on to a rambo style game, may I suggest Duke Nukem? u can get all the fancy weapons your little hearts desire and u cant ruine the fun for the rest of us. "Hail to the King Baby"

    "Kill them all and let the paramedics sort them out" thats what I have to say about the NOOBS that have infected this great game like a horrible on going disease!!! "Lets put the women and children to bed and go looking for dinner" I had enough of them!!! Let the hunt begin!!!!
  • MadJackMcJackMadJackMcJack Join Date: 2002-12-24 Member: 11467Members
    I don't mind the newbies who want to learn how to play the game, but it's the ones who maker the same mistakes over and over that annoy, espically when that mistake costs your team the round.

    Example of the first type:

    We were building in maintanence in ns_Eclipse, when this guy phases in. As he rushs off out towards comp core, I say "Don't go off on your own!" He doesn't listen. 5 seconds later, I hear "CHOMP CHOMP brrrrat CHOMP....thud" A few seconds later, he phases back in, and stays put until everybody moves on.

    Moral of the story: Single marines are skulk-bait

    Example of the second type:

    Playing on ns_Nothing, we'd taken cargo and viaduct. But as we secured viaduct, the com told us that cargo had fallen. Despite our best attempts, we couldn't take it back, and we soon had fades up against HA/HMG. The com informed us that a phase had been built in the corridor outside silo. Leaving some men behind to hold viaduct, we phased to silo. However, as the com dropped the TF, I saw someone walk towards the corner with a grenade launcher. I heard myself say "no no no no no no no...." He opened fire. 20 minutes and 3 factories later, the fade horde took down the phase. During this, however, someone got a phase up outside cargo, so we could seige it.

    He did it again.

    I couldn't bloody believe it! He saw what happened last time, and he still did it again! Eventually, he left after a barrage of flames from the marines (and a few chuckles from the aliens), but we lost the round after viaduct went down.
  • Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    We're getting such 'inherently' posts a lot lately. Gotta be something in the water <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Is NS inherently elitist? In my opinion, the answer is 'No, it's simply new.'. The steep learning curve which you presume as a given originates mostly from NS' differing set of goals to the usual FPS.

    Let me give an example:

    When CS and TFC came out, people were used to having a simple 'kill everything' goal - the learning curve for accepting that teamplay was actually necessary and that there were important spots on each map that have to be defended / attacked was steep - but people got (more or less) used to it over the time. Today, we assume CS to have a pretty low learning curve. People can get into it quite easyly. That's partly why the CS 'l337' is so ridiculous - big parts of it consist of relatively new players who simply try to put themselves above the average.

    Now, NS, with a far more difficult set of goals (ranging from "Build this Portal." to "Defend this outpost.") enters the ring.
    It'll take some time until people have come to terms with this, but it'll happen.
  • MMZ_TorakMMZ_Torak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Members
    MadJack, check <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=18391' target='_blank'>this post</a> out. It's along the same lines as you described.
  • AcKzAcKz Join Date: 2002-11-27 Member: 10079Banned
    Newbies are fine, it's just those **obscenity** who refuse to learn and think they're always right.
  • RUAewokRUAewok Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4159Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--AcKz+Jan 4 2003, 01:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AcKz @ Jan 4 2003, 01:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Newbies are fine, it's just those **obscenity** who refuse to learn and think they're always right.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    exactly. Actually NS n00bs seem more willing then most games to learn the game right, its actually a small minority of the n00bs that are DM, CS minded that can screw up the entire game. Atleast we won't be seeing NS_Iceworld ever, atleast I hope <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • maskedpussymaskedpussy Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11645Members
    edited January 2003
    If NS is inherently elitest then so is life. Because in both one must work together with their allies and friends and be able to think through the tough problems <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Moral: if you can't figure out NS then you don't deserve to live! (NOW THAT was elitest <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ...but still true)

    BTW, this game is not hard to understand. I've played it a total of 25 times and I've given a complete synopsis of it in another thread. Then again, I do play alot of RTS so maybe I had an advantage or something...

    maskedpussy
  • reborebo Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2734Members
    Heheh its ok, i know how to play. I just wonder about some of the players on the publics thats all <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> .
  • CommandoCommando Join Date: 2002-05-22 Member: 657Members, NS1 Playtester
    What isn't elitist?
  • Teufel_EldritchTeufel_Eldritch Join Date: 2002-01-28 Member: 124Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--maskedpussy+Jan 3 2003, 10:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (maskedpussy @ Jan 3 2003, 10:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->...this game is not hard to understand.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You're right. It's not. It only took me at most 20 min to figure out the basics of the game. Sure I've learned a lot since then but simple things like where or how to bild OC's and such that was no-brainer.
  • ImmacolataImmacolata Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2140Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--QuoteBegin--Commando+Jan 4 2003, 07:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Commando @ Jan 4 2003, 07:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What isn't elitist?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Socialism.
  • Rico1Rico1 NS Oldtimer Join Date: 2002-05-24 Member: 664Members
    Elitist views are stupid, and to all you people who think "n00bs are worthless, they dont help my team at all" let me tell you this.

    Newbies are actually very useful on the most part. Why? Because since they don't know the usual "winning" strategies, they make up their own on the spot. The result? new strategies that will be dubbed "winning" strategies all over again. Newbies help keep the game fresh, they don't kill it.
  • TikiTorchBobTikiTorchBob Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8527Members
    The TFC community is having the same issue, and has been having it for probably years. They started all these 'leet' servers called phat farms where newbies can't play, which is sort of stupid in my opinion. Yeah, let's make a bunch of servers where newbies <i>can't</i> play with the best TFC players existing..woo good idea O_O

    NS doesn't have anything quite like this, yet, but I do understand what the original poster is trying to say. Everytime someone makes a little mistake the entire team is chewing them out and insulting their intelligence(myself included). I also agree with Ovaltine, I don't mine newbies so much as newbies who refuse to listen to reason and run off and do their own thing, i.e. attack gorge >:|
  • MoonMoon Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8873Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS doesn't have anything quite like this, yet, but I do understand what the original poster is trying to say. Everytime someone makes a little mistake the entire team is chewing them out and insulting their intelligence(myself included). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Unfortunately, a fairly recent trend that I've noticed is <b>people chewing others out without any obvious mistakes being made.</b> It seems that either they are envious of someone else's position e.g. <b>they want to gorge, and God has declared that only they are worthy of gorging</b> or they are looking to place blame for personal blunders e.g. <b> it's your fault I was killed (nevermind the fact that you couldn't have done anything to help me) its still your fault !</b>. These people are walking/crawling adverts for a serious "mute" feature.

    ---- Getting more towards the topic now:------

    I think the fact that alot of games of NS involve a fair amount of time-investment (getting resources etc) results in people that are less tolerant of what they perceive to be mistakes (especially at the start) because let's face it ... playing a 30 min + game where you know the end result already gets old. Sure it's fun sometimes to make that last stand as a Marine when Onos' are invading and so forth, but by and large people seem to have less and less patience/ desire for seeing a 'lost' game to the end. In this way I believe that NS will always to a certain degree be "Elitist" because of its RTS/needing a time investment nature.
  • SirusSirus Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8466Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    All problems stem from the fact that people are selfish and want what they want when they want it. If everyone wasn't so concerned about themselves and how they regarded, and not so defensive when people try to help or don't face the fact that they aren't always right.

    I never had a problem being a new player to NS. Why? Because I understood that I had no idea how to play. I asked how to do things, and many of us learned together. But now, there's a growing number of individuals who would rather scream at the whole entire server than admit that they dont have a clue whats going on.

    People who can't take critism or assistance for what its worth are selfish people who can't be wrong.
  • EdcrabEdcrab Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4324Members
    Numeours definitions of elitisim- or rather, numerous ways of taking it into account.
    I quite like newbies, at least those willing to learn. The last game I played we had a "newb" comm and managed to win, although admittedly the alien team may have been a little below average. Newbies make the community- yup, we all were once.
    I think it's the "brain-dead" newbie that everyone hates. It's difficult to be accepting and friendly to someone who either deliberately or out of ignorance ruins the game. "RTFM" pops to mind rather often.
    So it's probbably the community that's elititist, to a greater or lesser extent. Hell, every competetive game/mod under the Sun appears to have similar aspects...
  • GreyPawsGreyPaws Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8659Members
    I've posted about this in the past, but NS seems to have speciall properties to it that no other MOD or Game I've ever played possesed. For instance, I have a terrible temper, but over the years i've learned to keep it cool while playing HL and DOD. I've even been know to constructivley help other figure out what needs to be done without loosing my cool. But I've never felt anger like the kind inspired by NS. I've narrowed it down to this:

    "The success of the game truly does not depend on one individual, in order to win at least 40% of the team has to be coordinated. When you are playing your best, and still lose, it is an extremely frustrating feeling."

    In games like DOD and CS (yuk) even though they are team games, One player can win the map for his team. That will never be the case in NS (well the rare jetpack welder hive kill (heheh ive had a few of those) doesnt count)

    I try to be nice to people but find my calm cool atitude expires within the first few minutes of the game <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • DubbilexDubbilex Chump Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9799Members
    edited January 2003
    I think that the MAIN reason for the whole "elitist" attitude is that failure at even a little task has SERIOUS repercussions. In short: it is so amazingly realistic (shellshock, anyone?) that people are hard-pressed to treat it as a game.

    For example, say you are a marine with a partner in an uninhabited alien hive, and you are yelling at the comm to build a turret factory there so you can hold it down. The comm sends the unbuilt factoryto you, and you build while your partner guards. The next action happens in slow-motion. Imagine this-two skulks rushing towards you and the factory, teeth bared and gnashing. Your partner, as you find out after you are both 0wned, was AFK. The Skulks kill double-team you, then proceed to kill him and any progress you may have made. What makes it worse is now the aliens know you are going for that hive, and take it. Compounding this even further is the fact that many hives are minutes away from the marine Start.

    What would YOU say to the partner who was AFK?

    So, in essence, NS is not an inherently elite game-it is just that the people who play it care too much about winning and lose sight of the one true goal: fun.
  • KenichiKenichi This is not a pie. Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
    you say elitists as though its bad. By your definition elitist is a regular. Someone who knows wtf they are doing. Thats not elitist thats called playing the game. You have every right to get **obscenity** off if someone is making your team lose. Its just like any other team played game in this respect. Elitists is when you have 1 person who runs around killing anything on the other team that moves and rarely dies then he brags about it. That is elitist.
  • ZerglinZerglin Join Date: 2002-12-13 Member: 10754Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--GreyPaws+Jan 4 2003, 07:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GreyPaws @ Jan 4 2003, 07:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've posted about this in the past, but NS seems to have speciall properties to it that no other MOD or Game I've ever played possesed. For instance, I have a terrible temper, but over the years i've learned to keep it cool while playing HL and DOD. I've even been know to constructivley help other figure out what needs to be done without loosing my cool. But I've never felt anger like the kind inspired by NS. I've narrowed it down to this:

    "The success of the game truly does not depend on one individual, in order to win at least 40% of the team has to be coordinated. When you are playing your best, and still lose, it is an extremely frustrating feeling."

    In games like DOD and CS (yuk) even though they are team games, One player can win the map for his team. That will never be the case in NS (well the rare jetpack welder hive kill (heheh ive had a few of those) doesnt count)

    I try to be nice to people but find my calm cool atitude expires within the first few minutes of the game <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    NS does have its one-man-armies. Except in NS their affects to the rest of the game is only slight. If you have a good shooter at your premature encampment at a Hive you'd want that guy to be there so he can at least shoot down 2-3 aliens so that leaves 2-3 aliens less to deal with for your teamates.

    I've seen whole teams slaughtered by aliens at a premature hive encampment and while I've also seen a single marine hold it just long enough BY HIMSELF for others to phase in.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, in essence, NS is not an inherently elite game-it is just that the people who play it care too much about winning and lose sight of the one true goal: fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Winning IS fun.
  • uranium_235uranium_235 Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9478Banned
    It is more elitest because the game relies SO much on teamwork for marines, one bad egg will usually result in a loss.

    Now, as for the noob bashing, guess what? They deserve it!

    How many times have you had a noob who actually devolved to a skulk from gorge when you tell him? How many? I can remember maybe twice, out of god-knows-how-many.
  • Naughty_BremboNaughty_Brembo Join Date: 2002-05-30 Member: 701Members
    edited January 2003
    I wrote something here when I was in a bad mood. Sorry.
    *edit*
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