Is Ns Inherently Eliteist ?
rebo
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2734Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2734Members
<div class="IPBDescription">and will this restrict growth of the mod</div> Due to the admittedly steep learning curve for NS, is the game inherently eliteist or maybe more specifically are the regular players and community always going to be elitist.
By eliteist I mean an absolute disdain for newbs and poor tactical decisions. Weve all seen the gorge barraged with insults for building sensory and the commander who is called all sorts of names for making 7 turrets in the base. Is this the destiny of the mod, will it limit growth, and if so is it a bad thing?
Personally as long as the 'fun' element remains im sure the mod will continue to attract new players. Altho is it possible for the mod to remain fun with an RTS type system that means there will always be an optimum strategy to winning (which by definitions newbys will not know about)?
By eliteist I mean an absolute disdain for newbs and poor tactical decisions. Weve all seen the gorge barraged with insults for building sensory and the commander who is called all sorts of names for making 7 turrets in the base. Is this the destiny of the mod, will it limit growth, and if so is it a bad thing?
Personally as long as the 'fun' element remains im sure the mod will continue to attract new players. Altho is it possible for the mod to remain fun with an RTS type system that means there will always be an optimum strategy to winning (which by definitions newbys will not know about)?
Comments
I used to be a good guy when it came to noobs but for some reason a lot of new players will not listen to their more experienced teammates.. Since ns is a team game that means that noobs can easily ruin a game for their whole team. I am more than willing to help new players that actually want to learn and can actually listen but noobs that go gorge when everyone just spent 10 minutes explaining why they shouldnt just **obscenity** me off. I now lose my temper a lot faster with noobs simply because of the overwhelming number of stupid, hard-headed ones that i've encountered.
So, yes, since ns is so dependent on good teamwork it will always have a more "elitist" leaning. One noobie can ruin a game for either side. Experienced players have probably experienced this more than once so noobs automatically get looked at in a bad light...
I don't think NS is elitist. First of all, marine isn't hard to learn to play. Second of all, while Kharaa is harder to learn there are still niches for newbies. One of the best games of NS I've ever played was one in which our main gorge was a newbie, but was willing to learn and follow advice. We ended up winning.
find a group in ur strata, and play with them. problem solved.
<u>n00b</u>: <i>noun</i> 1) a person who, despite knowledge and instruction, persists in doing the wrong thing because "it's their game and they can play however they want"
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> its sad how many time i hear the EXACT same thing (pretty much word for word..)
NS does not have a steep learning curve...have you noticed how quickly you respawn (or the fact that you respawn at all)? ANY mistake (outside of gorg/comm mistakes, that is..) does not cost you much, you just lose your current weapons/armor/upgrades/evolutions. Other than that, you are ready to play/learn again.
"Kill them all and let the paramedics sort them out" thats what I have to say about the NOOBS that have infected this great game like a horrible on going disease!!! "Lets put the women and children to bed and go looking for dinner" I had enough of them!!! Let the hunt begin!!!!
Example of the first type:
We were building in maintanence in ns_Eclipse, when this guy phases in. As he rushs off out towards comp core, I say "Don't go off on your own!" He doesn't listen. 5 seconds later, I hear "CHOMP CHOMP brrrrat CHOMP....thud" A few seconds later, he phases back in, and stays put until everybody moves on.
Moral of the story: Single marines are skulk-bait
Example of the second type:
Playing on ns_Nothing, we'd taken cargo and viaduct. But as we secured viaduct, the com told us that cargo had fallen. Despite our best attempts, we couldn't take it back, and we soon had fades up against HA/HMG. The com informed us that a phase had been built in the corridor outside silo. Leaving some men behind to hold viaduct, we phased to silo. However, as the com dropped the TF, I saw someone walk towards the corner with a grenade launcher. I heard myself say "no no no no no no no...." He opened fire. 20 minutes and 3 factories later, the fade horde took down the phase. During this, however, someone got a phase up outside cargo, so we could seige it.
He did it again.
I couldn't bloody believe it! He saw what happened last time, and he still did it again! Eventually, he left after a barrage of flames from the marines (and a few chuckles from the aliens), but we lost the round after viaduct went down.
Is NS inherently elitist? In my opinion, the answer is 'No, it's simply new.'. The steep learning curve which you presume as a given originates mostly from NS' differing set of goals to the usual FPS.
Let me give an example:
When CS and TFC came out, people were used to having a simple 'kill everything' goal - the learning curve for accepting that teamplay was actually necessary and that there were important spots on each map that have to be defended / attacked was steep - but people got (more or less) used to it over the time. Today, we assume CS to have a pretty low learning curve. People can get into it quite easyly. That's partly why the CS 'l337' is so ridiculous - big parts of it consist of relatively new players who simply try to put themselves above the average.
Now, NS, with a far more difficult set of goals (ranging from "Build this Portal." to "Defend this outpost.") enters the ring.
It'll take some time until people have come to terms with this, but it'll happen.
exactly. Actually NS n00bs seem more willing then most games to learn the game right, its actually a small minority of the n00bs that are DM, CS minded that can screw up the entire game. Atleast we won't be seeing NS_Iceworld ever, atleast I hope <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Moral: if you can't figure out NS then you don't deserve to live! (NOW THAT was elitest <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ...but still true)
BTW, this game is not hard to understand. I've played it a total of 25 times and I've given a complete synopsis of it in another thread. Then again, I do play alot of RTS so maybe I had an advantage or something...
maskedpussy
You're right. It's not. It only took me at most 20 min to figure out the basics of the game. Sure I've learned a lot since then but simple things like where or how to bild OC's and such that was no-brainer.
Socialism.
Newbies are actually very useful on the most part. Why? Because since they don't know the usual "winning" strategies, they make up their own on the spot. The result? new strategies that will be dubbed "winning" strategies all over again. Newbies help keep the game fresh, they don't kill it.
NS doesn't have anything quite like this, yet, but I do understand what the original poster is trying to say. Everytime someone makes a little mistake the entire team is chewing them out and insulting their intelligence(myself included). I also agree with Ovaltine, I don't mine newbies so much as newbies who refuse to listen to reason and run off and do their own thing, i.e. attack gorge >:|
Unfortunately, a fairly recent trend that I've noticed is <b>people chewing others out without any obvious mistakes being made.</b> It seems that either they are envious of someone else's position e.g. <b>they want to gorge, and God has declared that only they are worthy of gorging</b> or they are looking to place blame for personal blunders e.g. <b> it's your fault I was killed (nevermind the fact that you couldn't have done anything to help me) its still your fault !</b>. These people are walking/crawling adverts for a serious "mute" feature.
---- Getting more towards the topic now:------
I think the fact that alot of games of NS involve a fair amount of time-investment (getting resources etc) results in people that are less tolerant of what they perceive to be mistakes (especially at the start) because let's face it ... playing a 30 min + game where you know the end result already gets old. Sure it's fun sometimes to make that last stand as a Marine when Onos' are invading and so forth, but by and large people seem to have less and less patience/ desire for seeing a 'lost' game to the end. In this way I believe that NS will always to a certain degree be "Elitist" because of its RTS/needing a time investment nature.
I never had a problem being a new player to NS. Why? Because I understood that I had no idea how to play. I asked how to do things, and many of us learned together. But now, there's a growing number of individuals who would rather scream at the whole entire server than admit that they dont have a clue whats going on.
People who can't take critism or assistance for what its worth are selfish people who can't be wrong.
I quite like newbies, at least those willing to learn. The last game I played we had a "newb" comm and managed to win, although admittedly the alien team may have been a little below average. Newbies make the community- yup, we all were once.
I think it's the "brain-dead" newbie that everyone hates. It's difficult to be accepting and friendly to someone who either deliberately or out of ignorance ruins the game. "RTFM" pops to mind rather often.
So it's probbably the community that's elititist, to a greater or lesser extent. Hell, every competetive game/mod under the Sun appears to have similar aspects...
"The success of the game truly does not depend on one individual, in order to win at least 40% of the team has to be coordinated. When you are playing your best, and still lose, it is an extremely frustrating feeling."
In games like DOD and CS (yuk) even though they are team games, One player can win the map for his team. That will never be the case in NS (well the rare jetpack welder hive kill (heheh ive had a few of those) doesnt count)
I try to be nice to people but find my calm cool atitude expires within the first few minutes of the game <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
For example, say you are a marine with a partner in an uninhabited alien hive, and you are yelling at the comm to build a turret factory there so you can hold it down. The comm sends the unbuilt factoryto you, and you build while your partner guards. The next action happens in slow-motion. Imagine this-two skulks rushing towards you and the factory, teeth bared and gnashing. Your partner, as you find out after you are both 0wned, was AFK. The Skulks kill double-team you, then proceed to kill him and any progress you may have made. What makes it worse is now the aliens know you are going for that hive, and take it. Compounding this even further is the fact that many hives are minutes away from the marine Start.
What would YOU say to the partner who was AFK?
So, in essence, NS is not an inherently elite game-it is just that the people who play it care too much about winning and lose sight of the one true goal: fun.
"The success of the game truly does not depend on one individual, in order to win at least 40% of the team has to be coordinated. When you are playing your best, and still lose, it is an extremely frustrating feeling."
In games like DOD and CS (yuk) even though they are team games, One player can win the map for his team. That will never be the case in NS (well the rare jetpack welder hive kill (heheh ive had a few of those) doesnt count)
I try to be nice to people but find my calm cool atitude expires within the first few minutes of the game <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS does have its one-man-armies. Except in NS their affects to the rest of the game is only slight. If you have a good shooter at your premature encampment at a Hive you'd want that guy to be there so he can at least shoot down 2-3 aliens so that leaves 2-3 aliens less to deal with for your teamates.
I've seen whole teams slaughtered by aliens at a premature hive encampment and while I've also seen a single marine hold it just long enough BY HIMSELF for others to phase in.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, in essence, NS is not an inherently elite game-it is just that the people who play it care too much about winning and lose sight of the one true goal: fun. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Winning IS fun.
Now, as for the noob bashing, guess what? They deserve it!
How many times have you had a noob who actually devolved to a skulk from gorge when you tell him? How many? I can remember maybe twice, out of god-knows-how-many.
*edit*