It would be nice if the commander wasn't counted in team balance. That would fix a lot of small balance problems, I think.
When it comes to fades, I'm really getting sick of them. They're supposed to be these badass teleporting melee gods (hence why they have so much armor and such), but instead, most people end up playing them as rocket **obscenity**. Granted, if blink actually WORKED worth a damn more people might use them the intended way. I personally would like to see: 1) Blink fixed so it actually you know, works. 2) Acid rocket made the LAST ability fades get. Comments?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It would be nice if the commander wasn't counted in team balance. That would fix a lot of small balance problems, I think. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was thinking the same thing myself. When the marines are up by 1 their presence on the field is actually even.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I personally would like to see: 1) Blink fixed so it actually you know, works. 2) Acid rocket made the LAST ability fades get. Comments? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blink sort of works, albiet you have to know to aim upwards to make it work. As for the acid rocket being #4, the main problem I see with this is that the bile bomb can be an even nastier weapon than the acid rocket is. It has a BIG Aoe, more than enough to make up for it's weaker damage.
I'm not so sure that fades are really intended to be meleers anymore so much as the alien's mainstay shock troops. That said though, they should be about an even match for 3x upgraded unarmored marine with a HMG. Considering I can drop a marine with two or three pinpoint rockets, which I fire off in less than two seconds, I don't really consider that an even match.
siege cannon range should be halved and cost doubled mebbe even tripled<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I think that so long as Siege Cannons require LOS to use they can keep their range and cost. I like the idea of them being a support or bombardment weapon instead of a main offencive weapon.
Maybe reduce the effectiveness of jetpack with HMG, but I wouldn't remove flight entirely based on what weapons your carrying. I'm thinking hurting their accuracy when flying with a jetpack may be justified.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->acid rocket damage down by 1/3
umbra effectiveness down 1/3<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm assuming you mean have both abilities at 66% potency to what they are now. Hmm... tough but fair?
siege cannon range should be halved and cost doubled mebbe even tripled
jetpack wearers cant fly with hmg's
acid rocket damage down by 1/3
umbra effectiveness down 1/3<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let's make the only weapon available to marines knives, take the siege cannon out, make it so the commander can't drop health because that's unfair, then make the aliens only be able to be skulks and make their bite do 7 damage. This should clear up any unbalances.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
hmm.. i never seen the marines win.. since.. a LOONG time.. i dont know, possibly because im on the alien side :-) *g*... but, it cannot be that all marines are soo bad.... i dont know, something is wrong, but i think its just the commanders that are bad.. because sometimes i realy ask me questions what they are doing
<!--QuoteBegin--+Hozart++Dec 23 2002, 02:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (+Hozart+ @ Dec 23 2002, 02:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't know about you guys, but the acid rocket radius reduction will all LMG marines to rush them easier, now all they have to do is dodge the easy rockets and dodge the claws, easily done against a careless fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Haven't played 1.04 yet, but I gotta agree with that.
How many of you guys who've been killed by fades have had it done majorily by direct, or near direct hits? How many of had it done by the splash damage?
I think the reduced splash damage will be a big help in making it possible to avoid the Fades. I think maybe the marines need a slight speed increase for strafing (only a step or two) but as is, with the splash-reduction, it should make it easier for a decent Marine with an LMG and a few clips to be able to take down a decent Fade, provided he can keep moving and avoid those acid rockets.
Otherwise, some extremely goodpoitns have been made on this thread. I can't argue for the Marines though as I've only started comming recently, and most times I lose as I still don't fully know what to do when at all times. Though I'm learning
<!--QuoteBegin--Hang Loose Posted on Dec 24 2002+05:25 PM --></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hang Loose Posted on Dec 24 2002 @ 05:25 PM )</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's make the only weapon available to marines knives, take the siege cannon out, make it so the commander can't drop health because that's unfair, then make the aliens only be able to be skulks and make their bite do 7 damage. This should clear up any unbalances.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Every time I see something this, I have to call an "unmigitated whining" foul. Siege cannon being able to shoot at long range unstricted by walls was just plain easily exploitable cheese. Requiring LOS or commander attention seems like a call to sanity to me.
I say: start playing more like a gung ho space marine and less like a scared artillery emplacement builder. Last night I actually played a game where the Marine team was just around the corner, less than 5 game feet, from seeing an unentirely unfortified alien hive. They might get get bitten by our skulks if they go around the corner, so what do they do? They start building a siege turret. It's an undefended hive! Go in there and shoot it! I actually had to send a global message saying, "What the heck are you guys doing? The hive is right there?! There's no defences! C'mon already!" in order to get them to abandon their idea to build a siege turret in our hive's guest hallway! It's that kind of craziness that is getting the siege turret nerfed down to a LOS requirement - way too much overdependancy on it.
I think a large part of the balance argument stems from the economy:
Lower population (16 players or below) servers tend to have the marines stuck unable to defend their resources adequettely to get sufficient income to hold what they've got. On these servers the best tactic is apparently to have the marines rush - which often they're not too good at thanks to lack of hive sight. (No, I'm not asking to give Marines hive sight.) On these servers, marines tend to get pasted, unless the aliens are having an off game.
Oddly enough, on with just a little more population (24 players or above) marines tend to do considerably better. On those servers it's usually the aliens who are the underdogs and crushed under the boot of the marines if they can manage to hold down a resource nozzle outside of their base.
The cause of the economic influence is actually pretty easy to figure out: The more players there are in the game, faster the resources pay out. Marines have a central resource pool, Aliens have an individual resource pool. The more aliens there are, the more evenly the resources distribute (until people start getting full of resources, then those resources are sent to aliens who are not full of resources). However, the Marines have all their resources go to one person: the commander.
Thus, the alien's availability to upgrades decrease on a higher number of players server. Since Marine prices do not change based on number of players per server they can afford to drop far more weaponry and upgrades. This directly influences the firepower on the field. The medium of balance is about a 20 player server. The problem is that on a smaller (16 or less) server the marines really have very few resources to hold down what they've got, much less outfit their marines with sufficient weapons to try to counter fades.
The solution isn't all that easy. You can't penalize/increase the marines really because the moment the alien's resource bars all fill up, their resources start distributing to one of their members (probably a gorge).
I'm thinking that a good short term solution could be to change the resource multiples to give the marines a resource bonus on lower population servers and a resource penalty on higher population servers.
I've been playing NS since it came out religously, and I've come to a conclusion.
It's very tough to win as Marines, and 8/10 times a Kharaa team of equal skill levels will beat the Marines.
Marines have to do something totally unexpected for them to win, or the Kharaa have to make a huge blunder in their early gameplan.
geldonyetich was right when he said Kharaa reach midgame far quicker than the Marine counterpart (Fades/umbra comes WAY quicker than HMG/HA if your alien team knows what they are doing, putting Marines at a heavy disadvantage), so I suggest that advanced armory and prototype lab build and research times should be tweaked accordingly, or the Arms Lab cost be decreased and it's research time tweaked.
<!--QuoteBegin--geldonyetich+Dec 24 2002, 08:57 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (geldonyetich @ Dec 24 2002, 08:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally I think that so long as Siege Cannons require LOS to use they can keep their range and cost. I like the idea of them being a support or bombardment weapon instead of a main offencive weapon.
Maybe reduce the effectiveness of jetpack with HMG, but I wouldn't remove flight entirely based on what weapons your carrying. I'm thinking hurting their accuracy when flying with a jetpack may be justified.
I'm assuming you mean have both abilities at 66% potency to what they are now. Hmm... tough but fair?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. LOS is great yes, but it still does not stop siege cannon spam. Also a range reduction would require more teamwork from the Marines as they couldnt just place thier siege anywhere willy nilly anymore. They would actually have to think about where they wish to place it.
2. Why not removal of flight? The HMG slows down those that carry it why shouldnt it prevent flight? Im not saying a jetbo couldnt carry a HMG just that he shouldnt be allowed to fly with one. Jetbos with hmg's are too easily abused.
3. Tough and fair. Weapons/players are still effective but yet not so much so that Marines cant handle them. Either 66% or perhaps 75%. 1/3 to 1/4.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->geldonyetich was right when he said Kharaa reach midgame far quicker than the Marine counterpart (Fades/umbra comes WAY quicker than HMG/HA if your alien team knows what they are doing, putting Marines at a heavy disadvantage), so I suggest that advanced armory and prototype lab build and research times should be tweaked accordingly, or the Arms Lab cost be decreased and it's research time tweaked.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
(Looks like it was Catgirl who brought up the midgame definition on the first page.)
Lets say we reduce the costs/build times. Do you think a thus upgraded marines can really turn the tide of battle? I don't think so - the thing that gets me is that Fades are such versitle deadly fighters. In your average game these days you can assume that the aliens are going to take Defencive Chambers and Movement Chambers nearly every time. (Sensory has it's advantages, but Defensive and Movement are real neccessities.) You run into either a durable regenerating or extra durable fade who will have the energy to launch a good deal of acid rockets your marine forces - easily a match for 3 LMG not heavy armored marines. On top of that, if you hurt the fade enough, he'll just head back to some defencive chambers and heal up, then come back for more.
Consider this, does the cost of the fade justify the potency? At 48 cost for something that lasts that long, probably not. However, it may not matter, because Aliens usually have the monopoly on the resources. Now we're back to page one again, in your average sized (16 player) server Aliens always seem to have the resource advantage. Partly because that's less aliens to split resources between, but largely because marines can't hold any resources themselves. Since the destruction of turret factories disabled sentry turrets patrols are absolutely neccessary to hold any position. Too bad that Marines on the 16 player or less servers really don't have the manpower to patrol their resources. When Fades start working together (esp with Lerk umbra support or a gorge to speed healing) things get really hairy for marines. Marines who will likely be trying to keep things together with nothing but the weapons spawned on their backs simply because the commander cannot outfit more than 1 or 2 of them with a better weapon in the "midgame" period.
Spawned potency is not enough, even with maximum upgrades. To me, it's beginning to look alot like spawning with a hand grenade (weaker than grenade launcher grenades, not replenishable, only a limited supply (like 1-3) per spawn) may be the best way to equalize the battlefield.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1. LOS is great yes, but it still does not stop siege cannon spam. Also a range reduction would require more teamwork from the Marines as they couldnt just place thier siege anywhere willy nilly anymore. They would actually have to think about where they wish to place it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to disagree that the marines don't already have to think alout about where they can place a siege cannon and effectively hit anything with it. The Siege cannon's range really isnt that great, and 1.04 nerfs it down to a fairly balanced range. Siege cannons may only cost 25 resources to deploy, but this is after a 20 cost turret factory and 25 cost turret upgrade has been run. They're already pretty expencive. The only thing that needed to be fixxed was their being used as a twinky offencive measure that the marines could hind behind like a crutch, and that LOS restriction sounds just right.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2. Why not removal of flight? The HMG slows down those that carry it why shouldnt it prevent flight? Im not saying a jetbo couldnt carry a HMG just that he shouldnt be allowed to fly with one. Jetbos with hmg's are too easily abused.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only reason I see why you would want to do this is to prevent people from flying on top of a hive and shooting down into it while taking advantage of it's hitboxes and constant commander medpack droppings, which I agree is a cheap exploit. However, that's only one situation. I think of the commander is willing to blow ~35 resources on a marine being able to jet around with a jetpack and HMG is not that abusable. Sooner or later, he runs out of ammo. Besides, when I play I fade I never really had trouble with them. My acid rocket splash damage made up for any added manueverability the jetpack gave. I really don't see the problem here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3. Tough and fair. Weapons/players are still effective but yet not so much so that Marines cant handle them. Either 66% or perhaps 75%. 1/3 to 1/4. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm prone to agree here. Acid rockets are a little over effective, I wouldn't mind seeing them dropped to 66% - 75% of their current effectiveness. It would at least put the fades on even ground with a fully upgraded marine. Maybe even a fully upgraded HMG marine. Umbra is a bit effective when the marines can't even afford a grenade launcher. I'd agree to have it only deflect 5/8 bullets instead of 7/8 bullets on the grounds that it's meant to be used as a screening measure for other aliens and not a blanket of immortality.
Every game I've played recently as a marine has basically come down to getting our **obscenity** kicked by the acid rockets. Reducing the splash damage in 1.04 will help some, but if that'll fix the problem of them being too overbalanced, I don't know. I'm really getting tired of the way people play Fades right now. I know they're meant to be versatile, but the way I see most people play them -- all they ever do is hide behind corners and shoot acid rockets, afraid to even get their massive amounts of health dented a small bit. And this is sad. They're supposed to be fearless badass frontline Kharaa soldiers that teleport into your face and slash the crap out of you, or shoot some acid rockets at you from down a long hallway as they close the distance or something. But to be honest, all I ever see 99% of fades doing, is hiding near defensive chambers, popping around corners to shoot acid rockets occasionally. And this is really annoying, because I don't think that's how they were meant to be played, and thanks to the current acid rocket damage, they're too powerful. Not to mention, every CS or Q3 reject in existence just instantly plays aliens and switches over to Khaara, getting to fade instantly and then whipping out the acid rocket cheese.
First problem, as aforementioned, is that blink doesn't work worth a damn. You can say aiming upwards helps, but sometimes I've had it not work at ALL, aiming upwards or not (not to mention you shouldn't HAVE to aim upwards, you should just teleport forwards until you hit a wall or a person / building). Second problem is that acid rockets are the second slot weapon for crying out loud. Personally I think they should be fourth, and bile bomb third. People seem to have a big problem with this, but I don't know why. I can't recall the last time I actually saw bile bomb do much of any good. So you can bile bomb spam a base from slightly afar. Any marine with half a brain will just run out and kick your **obscenity** with an HMG because they KNOW that bile bomb does crap damage and that the fade is now more or less temporarily defenseless.
Oh well. I don't see much of this changing in the near future, but maybe at least the acid rocket splash damage will help. but I doubt it.
Commanding in 1.03 has been very fun.. my win/loss ratio is almost 8:1. Get the first hive, fight over the second and secure it, get RPs, wipe out the third. It's great fun.
Actually, using blink and slash for an attack on marines is extremely effective, probably because marines expect a blinking marine to be retreating, not teleporting behind their back. Additionally, as slash doesn't use much energy, you generally have enough left to blink again if things go wrong.
However, the usability of this tactic is restricted by the unreliability of blink. It appears to be a map problem. In some areas it doesn't work at all, in others it's very reliable. It's probably not a good idea to use it against turret farms if you don't want to get stuck, and gratings are problematic too.
I see two ways to make it used more: - acid damage down, slash damage up. Though this will make fades much weaker in places where blink can't be used. Currently, a slash doesn't do much more damage than a skulk, and it's not so powerful versus acid rocket either, and it lacks splash damage. The only advantage to slash is if you're out of energy or doing the blink attack, and the high rate of slashes. - fix blink (or the map regions where it fails).
The acidrocket's damage radius is only reduced from 200 to 165 (so it says on the news, unless I read it wrong). That's NOT a whole lot of reduction as far as I can tell.
Looks like things entirely hinge on the second hive.
If marines manage to secure the second hive, the aliens don't have sufficient weapons at their disposal to handle what the marines throw at them. Then it's just a long, slow, painful death for the aliens as the marines get their courage up to approach and eliminate the final hive.
If the aliens manage to secure the second hive, they get a wide variety of deadly attacks for existing units (skulks leap, gorge webbing, lerk umbra) in addition to the fades which are able to eliminate a nearly limitless number of of freshly spawned marines, no matter how well upgraded. Lerk Umbra coverage + lerks is ntohing to sneeze at either.
The aliens really don't need a third hive to eliminate the marines entirely, but if they manage to hold the third one that pretty much establishes them as having won the game.
I came to this realization when playing on a 22 player server today. I witnessed that the win/loss ratio was reasonably even, and it all depended on who owned 2/3 of the hives. Capable marines were able to turn things around pretty well, provided they were successful in denying the aliens access to two hives. I actually had one interesting battle where the aliens had just managed to secure two hives but then the marines came in with a siege turret and destroyed the hive through a wall. The aliens managed to get 4-5 fades, but didn't manage to remove the marine's hold on their front doorstep where the siege was, and so the second hive was never regained and eventually the fades were gone. At that point, it was just a long masochistic wait for the aliens. This I consider was a pretty good game because it involved tactics and was a good struggle.
Perhaps this was the intention of the balance behind NS. However, it seems just a bit lame to me that the entire battle hinges on the two hive control aspect. Ideally, I'd like to see things come to a bit of a head where aliens could have all three hives and marines have full upgrades and then it turns into a battle royale between onos/fades and heavy armor/hmg marines.
In order for that to happen though, a few things would have to change. Fades would have to be nerfed down to "mid game" potency rather than "end game" potency. For that to not be fatal to the aliens the marines would have to be given restrictions that prevent them from holding hives effectively so to allow the third hive required for the end game to be built. Taking this into consideration, perhaps these changes would be for the worse.
So in a way, existing balance is fine. However, there is a definate economy difference issue between lower and higher population servers that needs to be looked at. Marines cannot adequettely hold their resources on a 16 player server and so tend to lose about 80% of their games on those servers. Marines are bombarded by far too many resources on a 32 player server, allowing them to build alot of nasty "uber" units earlier (for example overly large turret farms or HMG packing, heavy armored and welding marine teams). Due to the way alien resources are divied between their members their economy is pretty much the same on either population types of servers, so they're left unable to adapt when the marines are given more toys to play with. For the same reason, Marines are unable to adapt on lower population servers due to equipment shortages. I recommend the balance point be considered 10 players/side.
([edit:]My thought: adjust marine prices for individual equipment based on current population levels. (Preferably alien population level so during an uneven game things balance to an extent., and marines can't just voluntarily quit to make it easier to buy things.))
I have to agree with this guy. People have been nagging about 'balance' forever now. If you're still nagging, you've got issues. The balance is fine. I've found that the aliens are more powerful overall, being their abilities are much easier to recognize and use effectively. Being on the marines is much different, much more strategy is involved, hence the aliens usually win on public servers. He's broken down this 'balance' issue completely. It seems like on 90% of public servers I play on aliens win. It takes a flawless team of marines to win. The server I've seen marines win most on would have to be Nano-Gridlock when the password is on, keeping out new, inexperienced, or just plain dumb players. Fam, I want groupie status back. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
There is still the major economy thing to look over - there's a giant difference in the win/loss on a 16 player server versus a 24 player server.
Then there's the question on if control of two hives is really what the entire game should hinge on, because it does.
Then there's the little knitpicky things, such as overly exploitive ways to use abilities in the game that throw the balance off, like jetpacking on top of a hive and gunning it down where aliens can't get at you due to hitboxes.
geldonyetich, congrats on a well put and eloquent opening post...don´t worry about the first retards who replied - I see that a good number of clever and mature people has since posted. (Actually a pretty good community, this!)
Anyway, in my eyes the second hive works like an on/off switch for team success: Once you have it (or don´t) a whole bunch of things happen at once to tip the scale instantly. I think having the abilities work more like a sliding scale instead of sudden leaps would enhance balance throughout the game. How this would work? Dunno.
As it is now, there is a good fight UNTIL one of the teams gain 2 hives, then it all falls apart and people give up.
I have a simple question. If Marines are 'so bad' a team (overall) then why at the beginning of every game are there line-ups in the ready room to get on the Marines team?
I've played Aliens a lot recently and I don't find that Aliens win often. In fact any reasonably decent Marine team can wipe the alines with ease.
Marines need to dump the cheap rushes and get down to some meat and potatoes advancement. I've found that Marines push forward steadily and fortify positions as they go, they are nearly unatoppable.
Well Savant, you seem to have a good grasp on what the game is supposed to be like, but I disagree with your assessment about how things currently are.
"Meat and potatoes" advancement for marines currently just doesn't work. I've tried it. Once the aliens get and hold Lerks, it's game over. A three times upgraded armor/weapon unequipped marine still is no match for a Fade.
What's that you say? They can overcome a fade if they work together as a team? Yes, but the fades work in teams too. With other fades. And Lerks which provide umbra.
One of the big problems with the game as it exists now is that it rewards rushing. However, let's look at the game as it stands:
A Marine team could technically win the game after setting up the spawn room and rushing the aliens main hive. Yes it takes some good shooting, but a co-ordinated team can pull it off. If the marines get into the Alien's only hive room, they can sit and pick off the aliens as they spawn. (a cheap tactic that I'm not too fond of) However, at any timne the marines COULD kill the alien hive without upgrades.
The aliens, on the other hand, could only win if the Marines somehow all get killed by an early skulk rush. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. Otherwise, the only time the Marines are at risk of losing in a one hive game is if the commander doesn't notice the skulk chewing on his chair for 5 minutes.
I've played on the alien team with fades AND still lost a hive. It happens all the time. You have to remember that if the alien team rushes to go fade then they will have little or no defense at their hives. That makes them prime pickings for a Marine team to set up shop outside the hive and then siege them. BTW, perhaps you should try playing against a marine with a 3x weapon armor upgrade and then tell me they are no match for fades.
Back to my message however.
Meat and potatoes Marine advancement. As I said, there are two ways the aliens will advance. Either they will rush for second hive, or they will secure second hive and get other things (like defense chambers and other defense) up first. Either way, skulks are no match for a four point turret/tf defense of key areas. If marines control the key resource points then the aliens won't be able to go fade because they won't have the resources to. Controlling the hive is only PART of the equation.
Too many people have resigned themselves to rushing, and that makes everyone else think that rushing is the only way to win. When you have a lowest common denominator such as this, games become boring very fast.
Well, I have managed to get Level 1 Weapons, Level 2 Armor, HA/HMG just as the Aliens get 2 Hives and plenty of Fades. It's just too bad that I did that after another comp dropped out so I only have half of the strategy. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
We lost anyway, because the 5 guys I outfitted DIED REALLY FAST. How can you lose that fast with HA/HMG? I sorta blame myself because when I get any sort of HA/HMG guy I nearly always watch over him because he sure is damn expensive. I like to make these tanks my main men to do my bidding. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I still think having to get EQ and upgrades is a little too much to combat Fades. Level 3 weapons/armor should be enough, but it isn't.
In light of <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=17982' target='_blank'>This post</a> I thought it might be prudent to bring this post back to people's attention.
Sort of a "yeah, way ahead of you" sort of thing.
Basically, here's the thing: He who holds two hives wins.
The good news is we know why: Fades are end game firepower. Onos are unneccessary.
The bad news is that Marines have been conditioned to rush hives now. Nerf the fades, fine, but you're going to need to give the aliens a means to counteract early Marine hive rushes.
<!--QuoteBegin--Morrik+Dec 23 2002, 02:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Morrik @ Dec 23 2002, 02:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines are hard to play, no doubts. That's what makes the game so fun. The challenge of trying to win with the so-called "lower" team.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Im with you on that one
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Hell, I PLAY Fades (<b>properly</b> imo, as I mainly melee, with some acid only as I close the range to discourage LA/HMG's) and I'd like to see Acid nerfed. Why would the Fade do so little more than a Skulk? The damage would be IMMENSE.
Plus, how are 90% of games where marines lose finished? By mass acid spam into their spawn. The less of this, and the more use of actual assaults.. (rather than run to door, spam acid, run to DC's) would be cool.
The Fade SHOULD scare people, but close up more often.
There is still the major economy thing to look over - there's a giant difference in the win/loss on a 16 player server versus a 24 player server.
Then there's the question on if control of two hives is really what the entire game should hinge on, because it does.
Then there's the little knitpicky things, such as overly exploitive ways to use abilities in the game that throw the balance off, like jetpacking on top of a hive and gunning it down where aliens can't get at you due to hitboxes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ressources is the big problem, really, isn't it?
Give small marine teams more res, they will fare better in midgame.
Let their turret work without active factories, they can hold res longer.
It is about res then, only.
One way or another, the marines do as they do because they cannot afford to go for anything but the 2 hives. Trying to do different leads to a painful ressource difference that in the end kills the marines.
Hmm, interesting.
I wonder how balance discussions would be IF 16 or 14 player games had an alternative ressource allocation model than we see now. Then we'd be discussing weapons more than anything else probably.
On large scale games, hive rushing is easy. so that gets nerfed good in 1.04 - unfortunately without anything being done to help out small scale games. We shall see what they have in the stockings for us in 1.1 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Unfortunately, unless they change the fact that an HMG requires only an advanced armory, the marines will continue to be unstoppable in NS.
Or the fact that marines with shotties can do pretty much the same thing. Or the fact that good marines with LMGs can do the same thing.
Problem being, if marines can't quickly and easily lock down two hives/destroy main hive in under 2-3 minutes, they're gone, due to Fade imbalances.
You can't even consider the fact that the marines rape all right now is considered skill; memorizing a build order is hardly skill. Being able to aim is a skill, but NS is supposed to be more than about aim, which it currently isn't. Unless NS <i>was</i> supposed to be about which team can aim better, in which case, well, mission accomplished. Still imbalanced though, cause aiming with claws is weaker than aiming with a gun.
Basically, if they wanna fix the game, they have to remove marine rushes, while making it so aliens NEED all 3 hives in order to win. Needing only 2 hives to win is stupid; almost as stupid as marines being able to win in under 5 minutes, all the time, every time (unless they're newbies).
I think the idea that fades are unbalenced is complete and total garbage.
A team of marines with half upgrades (such as a HMG, lv.2 armor) is good against half upgraded aliens (fades, with adren and carapace or regen.)
Unfortionatly, you never even see this, because of the fact that phase gates dominate the marine stratagy completely wasting their creds on agresive rushing tatics, which if they fail, will doom the game to marines.
How often do you see half upgraded marines vs. half upgrade aliens?
That's the question I must present to people who think fades are unfair.
Man, I am so **** about this I am making another thread about this.
geldonyetich, you think that lerk/umbra and fade/acidrocket combo is unstoppable. That's a downright lie.
Rush it all, and kill the lerks. The lerks aren't any tougher than skulks. Most lerks get regeneration, and usually only take 9 LMG shots.
Once the lerks have been taken away, fades will fall soon after.
If your marines lose, that's because they sucked and it's a pub server where teamplay is not common. Oh well. It's gonna happen, and until marines smarten up it's not going to change, regardless of changes made to gameplay.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Hmm...personally I find LA/HMG marines way too slow to give chase to fades. Secondly, I've tried walking straight up to a lerk to the point where my gun is touching the lerk and then shooting, but umbra still saves the lerk and I get killed. How about change umbra so somehow to lerk itself isn't protected? Or at least make it only protect from say...half or 2/3 of the bullets?
Looks like I've being directly challenged here, my apologies in advance to the Mods who have heard this argument too much as it is. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the idea that fades are unbalenced is complete and total garbage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your spelling is off, but then so is your perception, because apparently you never noticed that once the aliens have two hives the marines are quickly and methodically hunted to extinction by any half-competant group of aliens. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A team of marines with half upgrades (such as a HMG, lv.2 armor) is good against half upgraded aliens (fades, with adren and carapace or regen.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> While that sounds great in theory, my experience is that a barrage of acid rockets will splatter any number of marines against the walls in no time. Unless you have heavy armor on, it only takes about a half dozen acid rockets to take down a marine, and thanks to AOE damage, I get to share the love with any of your buddies who might happen to be standing nearby my target.
I don't know why you call lvl 3 defencive and lvl 3 movement "half upgraded". Sensory doesn't really add much in the way of potency so much as cleverness. The bile bomb is all the third hive really adds to the Fade - they're otherwise as powerful at two hives as they are three and "fully upgraded". <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unfortionatly, you never even see this, because of the fact that phase gates dominate the marine stratagy completely wasting their creds on agresive rushing tatics, which if they fail, will doom the game to marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your referring to an old tactic: teching up. Go ahead, leave the aliens alone. Go take and hold 3 RT and research, consolidate your power. Meanwhile, the aliens will go build up hive number two. Then the fades will come and wipe you out. Again. Unless you've been playing 1.01, you've got to be blind to think this tactic still works against a decent team of aliens that knows bringing up two hives is what they need to do first. (Hera is an exception to this due to processing being within siege range of two hives. Moving into the Holoroom can be very lucrative if done well.) <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How often do you see half upgraded marines vs. half upgrade aliens?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=18626' target='_blank'>Why only half upgraded?</a> Upgrade them all the way, it won't matter. If you can get some Heavy Armor AND a HMG, then you will be a match for my fade. Of course, you have to get close enough to me to use your HMG, since the gun's long range accuracy is abysmal. Too bad my acid rocket is pinpoint accurate at long range, hmm? <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's the question I must present to people who think fades are unfair.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not to say your opinion isn't valid, but I find it uninformed. Go play more NS before you raise a stink about it, will you? <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Man, I am so **** about this I am making another thread about this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh good, <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=18611' target='_blank'>another thread</a> for the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=18551' target='_blank'>mods to lock</a>. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->geldonyetich, you think that lerk/umbra and fade/acidrocket combo is unstoppable. ?That's a downright lie. Rush it all, and kill the lerks. ?The lerks aren't any tougher than skulks. ?Most lerks get regeneration, and usually only take 9 LMG shots Once the lerks have been taken away, fades will fall soon after.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Did I say it was unstoppable? If so, I exaggerated. However, it is nearly unstoppable.
Lerks in fact are tougher than skulks, albiet not much. In any case, it will take alot more than 9 LMG considering you'll be attacking a target using umbra that will blunt 6 out of 7 of your shots. If you can burn a whole upgraded LMG clip on the umbraing Lerk (i.e. he's sitting still like a twit) then perhaps you can take him out. However, I've had more success if I move in and knife the Lerk. That has some chance of success, assuming the Lerk doesn't compensate by keeping out of knife range, which he can do pretty easy considering he can fly. Or maybe use grenade launcher - better bring along some close range support, or the lerk will just attack you at close range and take you out.
If you do kill the Lerk, it's no big deal. Lerks are a nice luxury to Fades, but a Fade without a Lerk and umbra is hardly helpless. A Fade without a Lerk just slowly wears away any opposition with acid rocket at range. If anybody gets close, they fade can usually finish you them with a claw swipe or two. If they're up against somebody with enough firepower to remove the fade, a wise fade immediately runs and/or blinks away to the nearest defencive chamber.
However, when a Fade has a Lerk then they can do some real damage. Sentry turrets are nothing, and any marine not armed with a grenade launcher is either a dead marine or unnaturally good with a knife.
In any case, feel free to try your "HMG rush" tactic on any fade/lerk teams you see. Those of you who survive the fade's acid rocket barrages enough to get to close range can enjoy the hospitality of the fade's close range claws, which do twice the damage as their rockets do. The only way a HMG can kill a Fade is if you catch them unawares and/or low on health. I have taken down a fade or two LMG/HMG, but that's usually because they had undestimated how much fire they'd be up against and were not able to get away to heal in time. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If your marines lose, that's because they sucked and it's a pub server where teamplay is not common. ?Oh well. ?It's gonna happen, and until marines smarten up it's not going to change, regardless of changes made to gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You haven't played on many public servers, have you? While it's true you'll often run into newbies in a public server, team play is far from uncommon - at least on the public servers I play on. Heck, marines can't even get a spawn portal up without some level of team play. The thing that strikes me as funny is that people often don't realize that the aliens need to play as a team too - which they do. One fade is nasty, two fades is dangerous, and a whole team of fades with umbra and gorge/defencive structure support is an unmigitated disaster for the marines.
If you disagree with the above, I implore you, please save me some time and go play a few games of NS. No, not that NS 1.01 you've been playing, NS 1.03 or later. Keep your eyes open this time. Thanks.
Okay, moving on, let me make a little disclaimer here.
Since I started this thread, I've learned a little more, and I know now that Marines aren't quite as doomed as I thought. This is because the Marines have adapted and found a tactic that works: They prevent the aliens from holding two hives so that the aliens never get Fades. This doesn't mean Fades aren't overly powerful, just that the Marines have adapted their tactics because the fades are as powerful as they are.
While two hives to victory works for a functional game, it is not neccessarily optimal for two big reasons that come to mind:
First off, Marines are now encouraged to take over two hives asap. While that's great for the Marines if they can pull it off, the Khaara forced to play the game without their second hive are just in for a world of suck. Going up against turret farms with skulks is downright masochistic, especially if the turrets have been placed correctly and are being patrolled by marines. Then you usually have to wait through another 10-15 minutes of the game waiting for the marines to get their turret loving spines in gear to finally finish you off.
Second, we're not really getting good use out of the alien or marine tech tree. Marines are usually wiped off the map before Onos really enter the picture, so it's rare we ever see Sensory or Onos on the map. Onos are apparently just there to announce the game was overdue to end. The only time we ever see teams of heavily armored HMG marines is usually when the aliens have already lost, and the aliens are just waiting for the spineless skulk-fearing marine team to get their arses in gear and finish the last hive off.
While I think Fades are overdue for the nerf stick, there is another balance issue to consider, and that's that the Marines are conditioned to rush the hives. If the Fade is nerfed, the Aliens really need a means to get the marines out of their second hive, and if the Fade isn't it - what is? It's a tough balance to strike, but I'm thinking some of the future additions coming in future patches might just do it.
Comments
When it comes to fades, I'm really getting sick of them. They're supposed to be these badass teleporting melee gods (hence why they have so much armor and such), but instead, most people end up playing them as rocket **obscenity**. Granted, if blink actually WORKED worth a damn more people might use them the intended way. I personally would like to see: 1) Blink fixed so it actually you know, works. 2) Acid rocket made the LAST ability fades get. Comments?
siege cannon range should be halved and cost doubled mebbe even tripled
jetpack wearers cant fly with hmg's
acid rocket damage down by 1/3
umbra effectiveness down 1/3
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was thinking the same thing myself. When the marines are up by 1 their presence on the field is actually even.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I personally would like to see: 1) Blink fixed so it actually you know, works. 2) Acid rocket made the LAST ability fades get. Comments? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Blink sort of works, albiet you have to know to aim upwards to make it work. As for the acid rocket being #4, the main problem I see with this is that the bile bomb can be an even nastier weapon than the acid rocket is. It has a BIG Aoe, more than enough to make up for it's weaker damage.
I'm not so sure that fades are really intended to be meleers anymore so much as the alien's mainstay shock troops. That said though, they should be about an even match for 3x upgraded unarmored marine with a HMG. Considering I can drop a marine with two or three pinpoint rockets, which I fire off in less than two seconds, I don't really consider that an even match.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> my 2 cents....
siege cannon range should be halved and cost doubled mebbe even tripled<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I think that so long as Siege Cannons require LOS to use they can keep their range and cost. I like the idea of them being a support or bombardment weapon instead of a main offencive weapon.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->jetpack wearers cant fly with hmg's<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe reduce the effectiveness of jetpack with HMG, but I wouldn't remove flight entirely based on what weapons your carrying. I'm thinking hurting their accuracy when flying with a jetpack may be justified.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->acid rocket damage down by 1/3
umbra effectiveness down 1/3<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm assuming you mean have both abilities at 66% potency to what they are now. Hmm... tough but fair?
siege cannon range should be halved and cost doubled mebbe even tripled
jetpack wearers cant fly with hmg's
acid rocket damage down by 1/3
umbra effectiveness down 1/3<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's make the only weapon available to marines knives, take the siege cannon out, make it so the commander can't drop health because that's unfair, then make the aliens only be able to be skulks and make their bite do 7 damage. This should clear up any unbalances.
Haven't played 1.04 yet, but I gotta agree with that.
How many of you guys who've been killed by fades have had it done majorily by direct, or near direct hits? How many of had it done by the splash damage?
I think the reduced splash damage will be a big help in making it possible to avoid the Fades. I think maybe the marines need a slight speed increase for strafing (only a step or two) but as is, with the splash-reduction, it should make it easier for a decent Marine with an LMG and a few clips to be able to take down a decent Fade, provided he can keep moving and avoid those acid rockets.
Otherwise, some extremely goodpoitns have been made on this thread. I can't argue for the Marines though as I've only started comming recently, and most times I lose as I still don't fully know what to do when at all times. Though I'm learning
Every time I see something this, I have to call an "unmigitated whining" foul. Siege cannon being able to shoot at long range unstricted by walls was just plain easily exploitable cheese. Requiring LOS or commander attention seems like a call to sanity to me.
I say: start playing more like a gung ho space marine and less like a scared artillery emplacement builder. Last night I actually played a game where the Marine team was just around the corner, less than 5 game feet, from seeing an unentirely unfortified alien hive. They might get get bitten by our skulks if they go around the corner, so what do they do? They start building a siege turret. It's an undefended hive! Go in there and shoot it! I actually had to send a global message saying, "What the heck are you guys doing? The hive is right there?! There's no defences! C'mon already!" in order to get them to abandon their idea to build a siege turret in our hive's guest hallway! It's that kind of craziness that is getting the siege turret nerfed down to a LOS requirement - way too much overdependancy on it.
I think a large part of the balance argument stems from the economy:
Lower population (16 players or below) servers tend to have the marines stuck unable to defend their resources adequettely to get sufficient income to hold what they've got. On these servers the best tactic is apparently to have the marines rush - which often they're not too good at thanks to lack of hive sight. (No, I'm not asking to give Marines hive sight.) On these servers, marines tend to get pasted, unless the aliens are having an off game.
Oddly enough, on with just a little more population (24 players or above) marines tend to do considerably better. On those servers it's usually the aliens who are the underdogs and crushed under the boot of the marines if they can manage to hold down a resource nozzle outside of their base.
The cause of the economic influence is actually pretty easy to figure out: The more players there are in the game, faster the resources pay out. Marines have a central resource pool, Aliens have an individual resource pool. The more aliens there are, the more evenly the resources distribute (until people start getting full of resources, then those resources are sent to aliens who are not full of resources). However, the Marines have all their resources go to one person: the commander.
Thus, the alien's availability to upgrades decrease on a higher number of players server. Since Marine prices do not change based on number of players per server they can afford to drop far more weaponry and upgrades. This directly influences the firepower on the field. The medium of balance is about a 20 player server. The problem is that on a smaller (16 or less) server the marines really have very few resources to hold down what they've got, much less outfit their marines with sufficient weapons to try to counter fades.
The solution isn't all that easy. You can't penalize/increase the marines really because the moment the alien's resource bars all fill up, their resources start distributing to one of their members (probably a gorge).
I'm thinking that a good short term solution could be to change the resource multiples to give the marines a resource bonus on lower population servers and a resource penalty on higher population servers.
It's very tough to win as Marines, and 8/10 times a Kharaa team of equal skill levels will beat the Marines.
Marines have to do something totally unexpected for them to win, or the Kharaa have to make a huge blunder in their early gameplan.
geldonyetich was right when he said Kharaa reach midgame far quicker than the Marine counterpart (Fades/umbra comes WAY quicker than HMG/HA if your alien team knows what they are doing, putting Marines at a heavy disadvantage), so I suggest that advanced armory and prototype lab build and research times should be tweaked accordingly, or the Arms Lab cost be decreased and it's research time tweaked.
Maybe reduce the effectiveness of jetpack with HMG, but I wouldn't remove flight entirely based on what weapons your carrying. I'm thinking hurting their accuracy when flying with a jetpack may be justified.
I'm assuming you mean have both abilities at 66% potency to what they are now. Hmm... tough but fair?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. LOS is great yes, but it still does not stop siege cannon spam. Also a range reduction would require more teamwork from the Marines as they couldnt just place thier siege anywhere willy nilly anymore. They would actually have to think about where they wish to place it.
2. Why not removal of flight? The HMG slows down those that carry it why shouldnt it prevent flight? Im not saying a jetbo couldnt carry a HMG just that he shouldnt be allowed to fly with one. Jetbos with hmg's are too easily abused.
3. Tough and fair. Weapons/players are still effective but yet not so much so that Marines cant handle them. Either 66% or perhaps 75%. 1/3 to 1/4.
(Looks like it was Catgirl who brought up the midgame definition on the first page.)
Lets say we reduce the costs/build times. Do you think a thus upgraded marines can really turn the tide of battle? I don't think so - the thing that gets me is that Fades are such versitle deadly fighters. In your average game these days you can assume that the aliens are going to take Defencive Chambers and Movement Chambers nearly every time. (Sensory has it's advantages, but Defensive and Movement are real neccessities.) You run into either a durable regenerating or extra durable fade who will have the energy to launch a good deal of acid rockets your marine forces - easily a match for 3 LMG not heavy armored marines. On top of that, if you hurt the fade enough, he'll just head back to some defencive chambers and heal up, then come back for more.
Consider this, does the cost of the fade justify the potency? At 48 cost for something that lasts that long, probably not. However, it may not matter, because Aliens usually have the monopoly on the resources. Now we're back to page one again, in your average sized (16 player) server Aliens always seem to have the resource advantage. Partly because that's less aliens to split resources between, but largely because marines can't hold any resources themselves. Since the destruction of turret factories disabled sentry turrets patrols are absolutely neccessary to hold any position. Too bad that Marines on the 16 player or less servers really don't have the manpower to patrol their resources. When Fades start working together (esp with Lerk umbra support or a gorge to speed healing) things get really hairy for marines. Marines who will likely be trying to keep things together with nothing but the weapons spawned on their backs simply because the commander cannot outfit more than 1 or 2 of them with a better weapon in the "midgame" period.
Spawned potency is not enough, even with maximum upgrades. To me, it's beginning to look alot like spawning with a hand grenade (weaker than grenade launcher grenades, not replenishable, only a limited supply (like 1-3) per spawn) may be the best way to equalize the battlefield.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1. LOS is great yes, but it still does not stop siege cannon spam. Also a range reduction would require more teamwork from the Marines as they couldnt just place thier siege anywhere willy nilly anymore. They would actually have to think about where they wish to place it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to disagree that the marines don't already have to think alout about where they can place a siege cannon and effectively hit anything with it. The Siege cannon's range really isnt that great, and 1.04 nerfs it down to a fairly balanced range. Siege cannons may only cost 25 resources to deploy, but this is after a 20 cost turret factory and 25 cost turret upgrade has been run. They're already pretty expencive. The only thing that needed to be fixxed was their being used as a twinky offencive measure that the marines could hind behind like a crutch, and that LOS restriction sounds just right.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2. Why not removal of flight? The HMG slows down those that carry it why shouldnt it prevent flight? Im not saying a jetbo couldnt carry a HMG just that he shouldnt be allowed to fly with one. Jetbos with hmg's are too easily abused.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only reason I see why you would want to do this is to prevent people from flying on top of a hive and shooting down into it while taking advantage of it's hitboxes and constant commander medpack droppings, which I agree is a cheap exploit. However, that's only one situation. I think of the commander is willing to blow ~35 resources on a marine being able to jet around with a jetpack and HMG is not that abusable. Sooner or later, he runs out of ammo. Besides, when I play I fade I never really had trouble with them. My acid rocket splash damage made up for any added manueverability the jetpack gave. I really don't see the problem here.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3. Tough and fair. Weapons/players are still effective but yet not so much so that Marines cant handle them. Either 66% or perhaps 75%. 1/3 to 1/4. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm prone to agree here. Acid rockets are a little over effective, I wouldn't mind seeing them dropped to 66% - 75% of their current effectiveness. It would at least put the fades on even ground with a fully upgraded marine. Maybe even a fully upgraded HMG marine. Umbra is a bit effective when the marines can't even afford a grenade launcher. I'd agree to have it only deflect 5/8 bullets instead of 7/8 bullets on the grounds that it's meant to be used as a screening measure for other aliens and not a blanket of immortality.
First problem, as aforementioned, is that blink doesn't work worth a damn. You can say aiming upwards helps, but sometimes I've had it not work at ALL, aiming upwards or not (not to mention you shouldn't HAVE to aim upwards, you should just teleport forwards until you hit a wall or a person / building). Second problem is that acid rockets are the second slot weapon for crying out loud. Personally I think they should be fourth, and bile bomb third. People seem to have a big problem with this, but I don't know why. I can't recall the last time I actually saw bile bomb do much of any good. So you can bile bomb spam a base from slightly afar. Any marine with half a brain will just run out and kick your **obscenity** with an HMG because they KNOW that bile bomb does crap damage and that the fade is now more or less temporarily defenseless.
Oh well. I don't see much of this changing in the near future, but maybe at least the acid rocket splash damage will help. but I doubt it.
However, the usability of this tactic is restricted by the unreliability of blink. It appears to be a map problem. In some areas it doesn't work at all, in others it's very reliable. It's probably not a good idea to use it against turret farms if you don't want to get stuck, and gratings are problematic too.
I see two ways to make it used more:
- acid damage down, slash damage up. Though this will make fades much weaker in places where blink can't be used. Currently, a slash doesn't do much more damage than a skulk, and it's not so powerful versus acid rocket either, and it lacks splash damage. The only advantage to slash is if you're out of energy or doing the blink attack, and the high rate of slashes.
- fix blink (or the map regions where it fails).
If marines manage to secure the second hive, the aliens don't have sufficient weapons at their disposal to handle what the marines throw at them. Then it's just a long, slow, painful death for the aliens as the marines get their courage up to approach and eliminate the final hive.
If the aliens manage to secure the second hive, they get a wide variety of deadly attacks for existing units (skulks leap, gorge webbing, lerk umbra) in addition to the fades which are able to eliminate a nearly limitless number of of freshly spawned marines, no matter how well upgraded. Lerk Umbra coverage + lerks is ntohing to sneeze at either.
The aliens really don't need a third hive to eliminate the marines entirely, but if they manage to hold the third one that pretty much establishes them as having won the game.
I came to this realization when playing on a 22 player server today. I witnessed that the win/loss ratio was reasonably even, and it all depended on who owned 2/3 of the hives. Capable marines were able to turn things around pretty well, provided they were successful in denying the aliens access to two hives. I actually had one interesting battle where the aliens had just managed to secure two hives but then the marines came in with a siege turret and destroyed the hive through a wall. The aliens managed to get 4-5 fades, but didn't manage to remove the marine's hold on their front doorstep where the siege was, and so the second hive was never regained and eventually the fades were gone. At that point, it was just a long masochistic wait for the aliens. This I consider was a pretty good game because it involved tactics and was a good struggle.
Perhaps this was the intention of the balance behind NS. However, it seems just a bit lame to me that the entire battle hinges on the two hive control aspect. Ideally, I'd like to see things come to a bit of a head where aliens could have all three hives and marines have full upgrades and then it turns into a battle royale between onos/fades and heavy armor/hmg marines.
In order for that to happen though, a few things would have to change. Fades would have to be nerfed down to "mid game" potency rather than "end game" potency. For that to not be fatal to the aliens the marines would have to be given restrictions that prevent them from holding hives effectively so to allow the third hive required for the end game to be built. Taking this into consideration, perhaps these changes would be for the worse.
So in a way, existing balance is fine. However, there is a definate economy difference issue between lower and higher population servers that needs to be looked at. Marines cannot adequettely hold their resources on a 16 player server and so tend to lose about 80% of their games on those servers. Marines are bombarded by far too many resources on a 32 player server, allowing them to build alot of nasty "uber" units earlier (for example overly large turret farms or HMG packing, heavy armored and welding marine teams). Due to the way alien resources are divied between their members their economy is pretty much the same on either population types of servers, so they're left unable to adapt when the marines are given more toys to play with. For the same reason, Marines are unable to adapt on lower population servers due to equipment shortages. I recommend the balance point be considered 10 players/side.
([edit:]My thought: adjust marine prices for individual equipment based on current population levels. (Preferably alien population level so during an uneven game things balance to an extent., and marines can't just voluntarily quit to make it easier to buy things.))
There is still the major economy thing to look over - there's a giant difference in the win/loss on a 16 player server versus a 24 player server.
Then there's the question on if control of two hives is really what the entire game should hinge on, because it does.
Then there's the little knitpicky things, such as overly exploitive ways to use abilities in the game that throw the balance off, like jetpacking on top of a hive and gunning it down where aliens can't get at you due to hitboxes.
Anyway, in my eyes the second hive works like an on/off switch for team success: Once you have it (or don´t) a whole bunch of things happen at once to tip the scale instantly. I think having the abilities work more like a sliding scale instead of sudden leaps would enhance balance throughout the game. How this would work? Dunno.
As it is now, there is a good fight UNTIL one of the teams gain 2 hives, then it all falls apart and people give up.
/NB
I've played Aliens a lot recently and I don't find that Aliens win often. In fact any reasonably decent Marine team can wipe the alines with ease.
Marines need to dump the cheap rushes and get down to some meat and potatoes advancement. I've found that Marines push forward steadily and fortify positions as they go, they are nearly unatoppable.
Regards,
Savant
"Meat and potatoes" advancement for marines currently just doesn't work. I've tried it. Once the aliens get and hold Lerks, it's game over. A three times upgraded armor/weapon unequipped marine still is no match for a Fade.
What's that you say? They can overcome a fade if they work together as a team? Yes, but the fades work in teams too. With other fades. And Lerks which provide umbra.
A Marine team could technically win the game after setting up the spawn room and rushing the aliens main hive. Yes it takes some good shooting, but a co-ordinated team can pull it off. If the marines get into the Alien's only hive room, they can sit and pick off the aliens as they spawn. (a cheap tactic that I'm not too fond of) However, at any timne the marines COULD kill the alien hive without upgrades.
The aliens, on the other hand, could only win if the Marines somehow all get killed by an early skulk rush. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. Otherwise, the only time the Marines are at risk of losing in a one hive game is if the commander doesn't notice the skulk chewing on his chair for 5 minutes.
I've played on the alien team with fades AND still lost a hive. It happens all the time. You have to remember that if the alien team rushes to go fade then they will have little or no defense at their hives. That makes them prime pickings for a Marine team to set up shop outside the hive and then siege them. BTW, perhaps you should try playing against a marine with a 3x weapon armor upgrade and then tell me they are no match for fades.
Back to my message however.
Meat and potatoes Marine advancement. As I said, there are two ways the aliens will advance. Either they will rush for second hive, or they will secure second hive and get other things (like defense chambers and other defense) up first. Either way, skulks are no match for a four point turret/tf defense of key areas. If marines control the key resource points then the aliens won't be able to go fade because they won't have the resources to. Controlling the hive is only PART of the equation.
Too many people have resigned themselves to rushing, and that makes everyone else think that rushing is the only way to win. When you have a lowest common denominator such as this, games become boring very fast.
Regards,
Savant
We lost anyway, because the 5 guys I outfitted DIED REALLY FAST. How can you lose that fast with HA/HMG? I sorta blame myself because when I get any sort of HA/HMG guy I nearly always watch over him because he sure is damn expensive. I like to make these tanks my main men to do my bidding. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I still think having to get EQ and upgrades is a little too much to combat Fades. Level 3 weapons/armor should be enough, but it isn't.
Sort of a "yeah, way ahead of you" sort of thing.
Basically, here's the thing: He who holds two hives wins.
The good news is we know why: Fades are end game firepower. Onos are unneccessary.
The bad news is that Marines have been conditioned to rush hives now. Nerf the fades, fine, but you're going to need to give the aliens a means to counteract early Marine hive rushes.
Im with you on that one
Plus, how are 90% of games where marines lose finished? By mass acid spam into their spawn. The less of this, and the more use of actual assaults.. (rather than run to door, spam acid, run to DC's) would be cool.
The Fade SHOULD scare people, but close up more often.
There is still the major economy thing to look over - there's a giant difference in the win/loss on a 16 player server versus a 24 player server.
Then there's the question on if control of two hives is really what the entire game should hinge on, because it does.
Then there's the little knitpicky things, such as overly exploitive ways to use abilities in the game that throw the balance off, like jetpacking on top of a hive and gunning it down where aliens can't get at you due to hitboxes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ressources is the big problem, really, isn't it?
Give small marine teams more res, they will fare better in midgame.
Let their turret work without active factories, they can hold res longer.
It is about res then, only.
One way or another, the marines do as they do because they cannot afford to go for anything but the 2 hives. Trying to do different leads to a painful ressource difference that in the end kills the marines.
Hmm, interesting.
I wonder how balance discussions would be IF 16 or 14 player games had an alternative ressource allocation model than we see now. Then we'd be discussing weapons more than anything else probably.
On large scale games, hive rushing is easy. so that gets nerfed good in 1.04 - unfortunately without anything being done to help out small scale games. We shall see what they have in the stockings for us in 1.1 <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Or the fact that marines with shotties can do pretty much the same thing. Or the fact that good marines with LMGs can do the same thing.
Problem being, if marines can't quickly and easily lock down two hives/destroy main hive in under 2-3 minutes, they're gone, due to Fade imbalances.
You can't even consider the fact that the marines rape all right now is considered skill; memorizing a build order is hardly skill. Being able to aim is a skill, but NS is supposed to be more than about aim, which it currently isn't. Unless NS <i>was</i> supposed to be about which team can aim better, in which case, well, mission accomplished. Still imbalanced though, cause aiming with claws is weaker than aiming with a gun.
Basically, if they wanna fix the game, they have to remove marine rushes, while making it so aliens NEED all 3 hives in order to win. Needing only 2 hives to win is stupid; almost as stupid as marines being able to win in under 5 minutes, all the time, every time (unless they're newbies).
A team of marines with half upgrades (such as a HMG, lv.2 armor) is good against half upgraded aliens (fades, with adren and carapace or regen.)
Unfortionatly, you never even see this, because of the fact that phase gates dominate the marine stratagy completely wasting their creds on agresive rushing tatics, which if they fail, will doom the game to marines.
How often do you see half upgraded marines vs. half upgrade aliens?
That's the question I must present to people who think fades are unfair.
Man, I am so **** about this I am making another thread about this.
geldonyetich, you think that lerk/umbra and fade/acidrocket combo is unstoppable. That's a downright lie.
Rush it all, and kill the lerks. The lerks aren't any tougher than skulks. Most lerks get regeneration, and usually only take 9 LMG shots.
Once the lerks have been taken away, fades will fall soon after.
If your marines lose, that's because they sucked and it's a pub server where teamplay is not common. Oh well. It's gonna happen, and until marines smarten up it's not going to change, regardless of changes made to gameplay.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the idea that fades are unbalenced is complete and total garbage.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your spelling is off, but then so is your perception, because apparently you never noticed that once the aliens have two hives the marines are quickly and methodically hunted to extinction by any half-competant group of aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A team of marines with half upgrades (such as a HMG, lv.2 armor) is good against half upgraded aliens (fades, with adren and carapace or regen.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While that sounds great in theory, my experience is that a barrage of acid rockets will splatter any number of marines against the walls in no time. Unless you have heavy armor on, it only takes about a half dozen acid rockets to take down a marine, and thanks to AOE damage, I get to share the love with any of your buddies who might happen to be standing nearby my target.
I don't know why you call lvl 3 defencive and lvl 3 movement "half upgraded". Sensory doesn't really add much in the way of potency so much as cleverness. The bile bomb is all the third hive really adds to the Fade - they're otherwise as powerful at two hives as they are three and "fully upgraded".
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Unfortionatly, you never even see this, because of the fact that phase gates dominate the marine stratagy completely wasting their creds on agresive rushing tatics, which if they fail, will doom the game to marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your referring to an old tactic: teching up. Go ahead, leave the aliens alone. Go take and hold 3 RT and research, consolidate your power. Meanwhile, the aliens will go build up hive number two. Then the fades will come and wipe you out. Again. Unless you've been playing 1.01, you've got to be blind to think this tactic still works against a decent team of aliens that knows bringing up two hives is what they need to do first. (Hera is an exception to this due to processing being within siege range of two hives. Moving into the Holoroom can be very lucrative if done well.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How often do you see half upgraded marines vs. half upgrade aliens?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=18626' target='_blank'>Why only half upgraded?</a> Upgrade them all the way, it won't matter. If you can get some Heavy Armor AND a HMG, then you will be a match for my fade. Of course, you have to get close enough to me to use your HMG, since the gun's long range accuracy is abysmal. Too bad my acid rocket is pinpoint accurate at long range, hmm?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's the question I must present to people who think fades are unfair.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not to say your opinion isn't valid, but I find it uninformed.
Go play more NS before you raise a stink about it, will you?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Man, I am so **** about this I am making another thread about this.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh good, <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=18611' target='_blank'>another thread</a> for the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=18551' target='_blank'>mods to lock</a>.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->geldonyetich, you think that lerk/umbra and fade/acidrocket combo is unstoppable. ?That's a downright lie.
Rush it all, and kill the lerks. ?The lerks aren't any tougher than skulks. ?Most lerks get regeneration, and usually only take 9 LMG shots
Once the lerks have been taken away, fades will fall soon after.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did I say it was unstoppable? If so, I exaggerated. However, it is nearly unstoppable.
Lerks in fact are tougher than skulks, albiet not much. In any case, it will take alot more than 9 LMG considering you'll be attacking a target using umbra that will blunt 6 out of 7 of your shots. If you can burn a whole upgraded LMG clip on the umbraing Lerk (i.e. he's sitting still like a twit) then perhaps you can take him out. However, I've had more success if I move in and knife the Lerk. That has some chance of success, assuming the Lerk doesn't compensate by keeping out of knife range, which he can do pretty easy considering he can fly. Or maybe use grenade launcher - better bring along some close range support, or the lerk will just attack you at close range and take you out.
If you do kill the Lerk, it's no big deal. Lerks are a nice luxury to Fades, but a Fade without a Lerk and umbra is hardly helpless. A Fade without a Lerk just slowly wears away any opposition with acid rocket at range. If anybody gets close, they fade can usually finish you them with a claw swipe or two. If they're up against somebody with enough firepower to remove the fade, a wise fade immediately runs and/or blinks away to the nearest defencive chamber.
However, when a Fade has a Lerk then they can do some real damage. Sentry turrets are nothing, and any marine not armed with a grenade launcher is either a dead marine or unnaturally good with a knife.
In any case, feel free to try your "HMG rush" tactic on any fade/lerk teams you see. Those of you who survive the fade's acid rocket barrages enough to get to close range can enjoy the hospitality of the fade's close range claws, which do twice the damage as their rockets do. The only way a HMG can kill a Fade is if you catch them unawares and/or low on health. I have taken down a fade or two LMG/HMG, but that's usually because they had undestimated how much fire they'd be up against and were not able to get away to heal in time.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If your marines lose, that's because they sucked and it's a pub server where teamplay is not common. ?Oh well. ?It's gonna happen, and until marines smarten up it's not going to change, regardless of changes made to gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You haven't played on many public servers, have you? While it's true you'll often run into newbies in a public server, team play is far from uncommon - at least on the public servers I play on. Heck, marines can't even get a spawn portal up without some level of team play. The thing that strikes me as funny is that people often don't realize that the aliens need to play as a team too - which they do. One fade is nasty, two fades is dangerous, and a whole team of fades with umbra and gorge/defencive structure support is an unmigitated disaster for the marines.
If you disagree with the above, I implore you, please save me some time and go play a few games of NS. No, not that NS 1.01 you've been playing, NS 1.03 or later. Keep your eyes open this time. Thanks.
Okay, moving on, let me make a little disclaimer here.
Since I started this thread, I've learned a little more, and I know now that Marines aren't quite as doomed as I thought. This is because the Marines have adapted and found a tactic that works: They prevent the aliens from holding two hives so that the aliens never get Fades. This doesn't mean Fades aren't overly powerful, just that the Marines have adapted their tactics because the fades are as powerful as they are.
While two hives to victory works for a functional game, it is not neccessarily optimal for two big reasons that come to mind:
First off, Marines are now encouraged to take over two hives asap. While that's great for the Marines if they can pull it off, the Khaara forced to play the game without their second hive are just in for a world of suck. Going up against turret farms with skulks is downright masochistic, especially if the turrets have been placed correctly and are being patrolled by marines. Then you usually have to wait through another 10-15 minutes of the game waiting for the marines to get their turret loving spines in gear to finally finish you off.
Second, we're not really getting good use out of the alien or marine tech tree. Marines are usually wiped off the map before Onos really enter the picture, so it's rare we ever see Sensory or Onos on the map. Onos are apparently just there to announce the game was overdue to end. The only time we ever see teams of heavily armored HMG marines is usually when the aliens have already lost, and the aliens are just waiting for the spineless skulk-fearing marine team to get their arses in gear and finish the last hive off.
While I think Fades are overdue for the nerf stick, there is another balance issue to consider, and that's that the Marines are conditioned to rush the hives. If the Fade is nerfed, the Aliens really need a means to get the marines out of their second hive, and if the Fade isn't it - what is? It's a tough balance to strike, but I'm thinking some of the future additions coming in future patches might just do it.