Netcode renders this game unplayable (the Invisible Tail)

2

Comments

  • Dr. RocksoDr. Rockso Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75114Members
    edited May 2013
    Yeah...what matso said had nothing to do with what I was talking about.

    Every time I kill a skulk who was standing still I know I got that kill for free - there was no chance for them to react and save themselves.  Its pretty awkward.

    -------------------------------

    Yet another very good point - if you happen to be exposed and you are unaware, there is a snowball chance in hell that you will be able to react and save yourself.

    I think this gets to the heart of the issue, as you have no idea you are actually being fired upon until after you're already dead... when you react to jump away upon the initial bullet, you think you're still alive until you find out that you're in control of a corpse.

    This has got to be closely linked with (if not, part of the very same problem) the same issue as with death behind walls - even though you got away (or at least thought you got away?) you are randomly, instantly dead.

    The most confusing thing here is that you actually make it out of the room before being fired upon and then you hear marines start to fire at you (far from any line of sight and conspicuously blocked by walls, from a room or two over), in real time, on your client-end... then your body randomly becomes a corpse and falls to the ground.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    I don't really experience anything more than general mild interp problems. The extent you guys are talking about is beyond anything I myself have experienced on a good server. I have had the problems you describe on low tickrate servers but you say that the servers you played on had 30 ticks.
  • Fudo_StyleFudo_Style Join Date: 2002-12-31 Member: 11659Members
    edited May 2013
    Here's a video that everybody loved on how to play skulk, by the pro tyrsisxl.

    Skip to 3:30 to hear him talk about the lag I'm talking about.


    If its worth mentioning in a tutorial, its probably a big deal.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    What he's talking about is true, but extremely exaggerated, though it helps to treat it that way.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    The amount of time a marine shoots to kill a Skulk is ~500-600ms, using 10 bullets as an example, which is very similar to interp+latencies+reaction time. It's all part of how latencies work in multiplayer, especially using the fragile Skulk as an example. "Always keep moving" is just common sense in any multiplayer game, not just "a big deal"
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Shoot yes, come around a corner, aim at the skulk, then shoot, no.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited May 2013
    Shoot yes, come around a corner, aim at the skulk, then shoot, no.
    Marines do have knowledge in advance about the structure being under attack though, making them able to attack/advance on their terms, with the Skulk only able to try and keep an eye on it's surroundings to try and anticipate an incoming attack. And since we're talking about a Skulk that is indeed not moving, I'd put my moneys on them bullets :P
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Well if you're not moving, even if the netcode was perfect and everyone had 0 ping, you'd still take a bullet or two, because you're being an idiot.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited May 2013
    The thing is though, that has no bearing on what the thread is about, which related to actual movement speed of certain creatures such as the Lerk. Which I personally find getting killed around corners a bit too far. I'd like to see the 8-12 meters around the corners shenanigans on low latencies with perfect server ticks explained, I mean 6-8 meters seems more accurate and acceptable, in terms of around corners shots (lag compensation), where alien speeds are concerned. But sometimes I've seen oddities. Not the two rooms over, OP is talking about though...

    In fact if that is true, I'd love to see a video of that on a good server with low latencies...
  • current1ycurrent1y Join Date: 2003-12-08 Member: 24150Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    edited May 2013
    I remember when I killed you once kouji in a play test you went back and measured and it was in the 25ish meter range. where on my screen you were walking up the wall about to go through a glass hole.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    current1y said:
    I remember when I killed you once kouji in a play test you went back and measured and it was in the 25ish meter range. where on my screen you were walking up the wall about to go through a glass hole.
    True, and that was quite a weird thing indeed. But on the Onos test server I am on 250-280ms ping. BTW wasn't it around 18meters after measuring it in the editor? :P
  • ArtfunkelArtfunkel Join Date: 2013-05-10 Member: 185184Members
    edited May 2013
    NS2 uses the same lag compensation system as GoldSrc, Source, Frostbite, and whatever it is that COD runs on: rewinding time.

    If you want to get rid of lag comp, play a game which doesn't have any first. If you can find one...
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited May 2013
    I don't think Battlefield 1942 has lag compensation, what with needing to lead your targets. However that is a slow paced, tactical large scale battlefield type game, so it is kinda fun to do and you can learn to take out targets across great distances. This becomes increasing fun when all players are on at least ~40-60ms.

    I'm pretty sure the game is hitscan for infantry weaponry right? Or are they using a projectile system, and now I'm not sure about lack of lag compensation :P Once you shoot/lead your target, the target tends to die a few moments later /:)

    But for a close quarter, fast moving game like NS(2) or any other oldschool shooter, I don't see that working very well...

    [edit]no lag compensation ^
  • ArtfunkelArtfunkel Join Date: 2013-05-10 Member: 185184Members
    I can't speak for 1942, but Frostbite games (I've played BC2 and BF3) definitely have it.

    Fast moving games are precisely the ones which need lag comp. Or were you talking about projectile weapons? I'm a bit confused.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    Hehe, now that I read it back I can see it's not clear what I'm referring to. I meant lack of lag compensation in a fast paced close quarter combat game wouldn't work very well, my bad :)
  • Dr. RocksoDr. Rockso Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75114Members
    edited May 2013
    Not a programmer here, but whatever the other multiplayer games are doing different, NS2 needs to do the same or something similar (better?).

    I've played BF3 (ie: frostbite engine) a lot and never experienced such horrendous double-takes. Leading your shots are almost always accurate and projectiles are insanely good... compared to NS2.

    The important thing here, in BF3, is that low-ping players have an advantage because they are able to send and receive data quickly... which should always be the case. If people can't afford a decent connection, that shouldn't be the problem of those who can. To promote such values does not work... aside from bringing in politics into this, such communistic practices (leveling the playing field by giving everyone the same advantage) are ideal and do not work. Currently, the netcode promotes laggers and people at the bottom fringe to take advantage of the system.

    I often find it very difficult to get hits with projectiles in NS2 (gorge spit) and very often find myself leading and shooting practically at the heads of skulks most of the time with no hit reg... maybe this is due to the fact that their bite cone and skeleton is clumped at the center of their bodies or whatever, I don't know, but I'm left baffled.

    The bottom line is that the visuals in NS2 do not match up very well with the mechanics and game environment... they are very far from what you expect to work.

    This totally kills the game experience for me as it takes away from the immersion and atmosphere, as I don't even feel like I'm an active participant in the game, often abruptly realizing that I'm playing a buggy game on a PC system (when I should be caught up in some 'Unknown Worlds').

    EDIT: Again, not a programmer here, but I sense that the game lacks an accuracy/check system that verifies if certain things are even possible on any client-end. For instance, if a laggy player's computer sends data to the server in which they get shots off or a kill and the non-laggy player's system cross-checks and verifies the data to be impossible (say, the line of sight does not exist within the last, even half second, of gameplay) then it should not give the go-ahead.

    There should be more of these checks to be certain if someone registers hits or gets a kill, before giving the verdict. Feels as though you're guilty until proven innocent, without any means of collecting evidence to verify/protect your innocence... especially when playing vs high-ping players.

    GIVE ME VISUALS ON MY CLIENT (IE: A MARINE ACTUALLY STANDING THERE AND SHOOTING AT ME) IF YOU'RE GOING TO ALLOW THEM TO DO DAMAGE TO ME. PLEASE.

    If my client doesn't see the marine around the corner, In-Game and in Real-Time, the marine should not be allowed to register any hits - period.
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
    We should contact Ron Paul immediately about these terrible communistic netcode practices UWE engages in.
  • ArtfunkelArtfunkel Join Date: 2013-05-10 Member: 185184Members
    You're asking for lag comp to be improved when you're a marine and turned off when you're an alien. Choose!
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    You do realise there are few fps games where targets move this bloody fast this constant?
    Its unfair and unrealistic to even compare with such speed.

    This whole topic is becoming rediculous
  • Dr. RocksoDr. Rockso Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75114Members
    edited May 2013
    Artfunkel said:
    You're asking for lag comp to be improved when you're a marine and turned off when you're an alien. Choose!
    To make things perfectly clear, the problem is there for both, aliens and marines - (please bother to read the topic before posting - it helps to make useful comments and might give people the impression that you actually read the topic and replies).

    ...I did comment that, in most cases for marine, the problem isn't as apparent (as even if a fraction of bullets hit their target in any engagement, it isn't a total loss, and marines typically rely on long-range engagements). When it is apparent for marines, when they engage their targets in close-quarters combat (which is less often) and die from what seems to be single-bite attacks (with multiple hit registrations)... but the problem is very much there.

    This was more of a fleshing out of aspects of the same problem, so it's a bit messy, but hopefully it gives Max (or whoever is responsible for the netcode) some idea of what might be killing this game for some people.

    Constructive feedback was the intent - not to just complain, point fingers and avoid responsibility for poor understanding or ability to play the game.

    The problem is very much there, so we hope it gets fixed and dealt with in a timely manner (hopefully sooner than later).

    Anyway, it is interesting to see how this 'feature' has shaped the game-play styles and how the overall game is played - it is often that alien players realize that heading for cover and retreating is most times not an option, so they often fake retreats and stick around until their exits are cleared or backup arrives, etc.

    In all honestly, maybe its best to ignore the whole issue all-together and shape the game and your play-styles with this fact in mind - though it would be awesome to see this game run flawlessly and be able to rely on your instincts, without having to worry about your actions not syncing up with the game's reality, and get totally immersed into the game's atmosphere -  maybe the technology isn't there yet, maybe this isn't something for the NS2 coders to tackle... then again, maybe the development of this game is a good excuse to change that, maybe the coders for NS2 pull an ace out of their sleeves and change what we thought possible in RTS gaming, even for an FPS.
    Who knows...

  • Dr. RocksoDr. Rockso Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75114Members
    edited May 2013
    I got to thinking a little more and maybe some of these problems might be fixed tackling the problem from a different angle - to provide some suggestions and avoiding this just becoming a 'it's broke, fix it!' thread :)

    ****** I wonder if modifying and/or pushing the hit-boxes in front of the hit-and-run aliens, say towards the head of the skulk and lerk, especially when they're on the run and especially with celerity.

    I can imagine that this type of solution might have the potential to 1) fix the hit-reg problem marines have with leading their shots on skulks/lerks, which almost never register and 2) remove the 'invisible tail' that the skulks and lerks have when they're fleeing, allowing less chance for marines to get 'shadow-kills'.

    Marines would have to shoot a little before their targets to get correct hit-registration, as you would expect - now, thinking about it, BF3 has this down to the T - your brain registers your pre-emptive strikes and actions correctly with the virtual game-play and, as a result, the game-play is much more flawless. Also, aliens wouldn't have to worry about leaving a shadow or invisible tail, as marines would already have to be leading their shots and shooting before them as they escape, possibly removing the problem of death behind walls completely - if marines get the drop on them and can anticipate their escape, they get the kill... if not, they don't (get the kill shooting at shadows).
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    @Dr. Rockso

    Messing with the hitboxes like that makes no sense. Lag compensation is there for a reason. It's so you hit what you're aiming at and don't have to lead your target. Yes, the side effect is that sometimes you'll die thinking you've made it behind that corner, while actually not having made it behind the corner on your opponents screen. And this is more noticeable in fast paced shooters. But it's the price you have to pay. Can the netcode be improved? I don't know, I'm not an expert, but from my experience it's not that big of an issue. At least not that much different from other shooters I've played.

    A general tip, when you see a marine turning towards you, don't wait until he opens fire, but assume he already started shooting, and move.
  • DestherDesther Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Members
    Kouji_San said:
    I don't think Battlefield 1942 has lag compensation, what with needing to lead your targets. However that is a slow paced, tactical large scale battlefield type game, so it is kinda fun to do and you can learn to take out targets across great distances. This becomes increasing fun when all players are on at least ~40-60ms.


    BF1942 gave a really bad FPS experience at the time, even with ADSL. All it was good for was bombing with planes and shooting with tanks, and waiting for the enemy to stand still if you wanted to shoot him with a rifle.
  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members
    there is something ridiculous about NS2 latency

    it's completely understandable that there should be some lag compensation when 99% of marine play is about using hitscan weapons

    however, if your ping is 50 ms and your attacker's ping is 50 ms, damage should never be delayed more than 100 ms (+ the length of 2 frames in the worst case scenario)
    instead you will get half a second worth of damage within 1 or 2 frames maybe 1 second after you are behind a wall...

  • Dr. RocksoDr. Rockso Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75114Members
    edited May 2013
    Neoken said:
    @Dr. Rockso

    Messing with the hitboxes like that makes no sense. Lag compensation is there for a reason. It's so you hit what you're aiming at and don't have to lead your target. Yes, the side effect is that sometimes you'll die thinking you've made it behind that corner, while actually not having made it behind the corner on your opponents screen. And this is more noticeable in fast paced shooters. But it's the price you have to pay. Can the netcode be improved? I don't know, I'm not an expert, but from my experience it's not that big of an issue. At least not that much different from other shooters I've played.

    A general tip, when you see a marine turning towards you, don't wait until he opens fire, but assume he already started shooting, and move.
    The problem is that I find it difficult registering hits on skulks as marine, when they are moving with celerity (though a small percentage of random-spray-in-their-general-position hits register)... so I resorted to leading my shots (as you would expect to work), hoping that the game would register hits that way - that also doesn't work.

    ***When I say leading here, I mean firing right at the tip of their mouth/head, in front of their running direction - so I'm actually still full-on aiming at their body, though not at the center of their body mass (which often does not work when experiencing the game's netcode issues).

    I've already said this several times, but it seems as though people are not reading, so I will say it again: 1) I leave the room even before marines start to fine upon me 2) when I'm in the room over, I hear the marines begin to fire (I hear this real-time, on my client) 3) I find myself falling to my death in the doorway entrance of the 2nd room over 4) my lerk corpse lay two rooms over, blocked by several walls with no possible line of sight.

    Currently, the alien hit-boxes could use some work - I'm suggesting some ideas to stir up some thought on how and/or why the current hit-boxes are not working all that well.

    I seriously still think that modding the hitboxes slightly to the front of fast-moving alien body would help tremendously. I'm almost positive this is the way most other fast-paced games operate (BF3 being one of them, either on an open battlefield or close-quarters combat).
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    Like I asked before, how much of a distance are we talking about, I mean "2 room over seems" of an overstatement... Get it on video, I'd like to see this. the most I've even seen was ~18 meters and that was on high latency with the server spewing out error if real correctly...


    Also the hitboxes are following the models very close, they are almost pixel perfect...
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Aliens in NS2 are something of a "perfect storm" in relation to the underlying structure of online multiplaying. They are fast and horizontal with their viewpoint in the center. Add in standard lag compensation, high ping, and low server performance and you'll have 'death around corner' problems.

    However, after the 2000+ hours of NS2 I've played, I haven't found this issue to be that big of a deal. You should be moving constantly anyways, which pretty much mitigates the problem.
  • Dr. RocksoDr. Rockso Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75114Members
    Kouji_San said:
    Like I asked before, how much of a distance are we talking about, I mean "2 room over seems" of an overstatement... Get it on video, I'd like to see this. the most I've even seen was ~18 meters and that was on high latency with the server spewing out error if real correctly...


    Also the hitboxes are following the models very close, they are almost pixel perfect...
    20 meters or so sounds about right.

    I was thinking the same thing, so I'll try to video and post what I can catch - what would you recommend, as far as capturing the true-to-itself footage (in-game recorder, a recorder like fraps, etc)?
  • PricePrice Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Members
    Dr. Rockso wrote: »
    Kouji_San said:<br />
    what would you recommend, as far as capturing the true-to-itself footage (in-game recorder, a recorder like fraps, etc)?

    bandicam, it allows you recording 10 minutes everytime (press stop after 9 and you can record again) but you got a watermark in the upper screen.
    Link:
    http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Video/Video-Recording/Bandicam.shtml
    I use it all time
    "Limitations:
    · Will add an watermark at the top of every video
    · Each recorded video is limited to 10 minutes length"
    i notice last weeks that it seems that people with high ping (~120) have anyhow an advantage and can see enemys before you can see them for example behind a door.
    You sit next to the door, they don't have scan, the door opens and they fire in the second the door opens at your position, this whole scene looks like they already saw you because the door open for them, i hope you get what i mean.
    This lag compensation seems wrong.
    I will record a video to show you what i mean, then you belive me maybe, but it's hard to record this situations but i try!
    The video above is very good, some other people tell me too, the movement is important, sometimes i shoot my own bilebombs as a gorge...that shows how weird the engine is.
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    edited May 2013
    Dr. Rockso wrote: »
    Neoken said:<br />
    @Dr. Rockso<br />
    <br />
    Messing with the hitboxes like that makes no sense. Lag compensation is there for a reason. It's so you hit what you're aiming at and don't have to lead your target. Yes, the side effect is that sometimes you'll die thinking you've made it behind that corner, while actually not having made it behind the corner on your opponents screen. And this is more noticeable in fast paced shooters. But it's the price you have to pay. Can the netcode be improved? I don't know, I'm not an expert, but from my experience it's not that big of an issue. At least not that much different from other shooters I've played.<br />
    <br />
    A general tip, when you see a marine turning towards you, don't wait until he opens fire, but assume he already started shooting, and move.<br />

    <br />

    <br />

    <br />
    The problem is that I find it difficult registering hits on skulks as marine, when they are moving with celerity (though a small percentage of random-spray-in-their-general-position hits register)... so I resorted to leading my shots (as you would expect to work), hoping that the game would register hits that way - that also doesn't work.<br />
    <br />
    ***When I say leading here, I mean firing right at the tip of their mouth/head, in front of their running direction - so I'm actually still full-on aiming at their body, though not at the center of their body mass (which often does not work when experiencing the game's netcode issues).<br />
    <br />
    I've already said this several times, but it seems as though people are not reading, so I will say it again: 1) I leave the room even before marines start to fine upon me 2) when I'm in the room over, I hear the marines begin to fire (I hear this real-time, on my client) 3) I find myself falling to my death in the doorway entrance of the 2nd room over 4) my lerk corpse lay two rooms over, blocked by several walls with no possible line of sight.<br />
    <br />
    Currently, the alien hit-boxes could use some work - I'm suggesting some ideas to stir up some thought on how and/or why the current hit-boxes are not working all that well.<br />
    <br />
    I seriously still think that modding the hitboxes slightly to the front of fast-moving alien body would help tremendously. I'm almost positive this is the way most other fast-paced games operate (BF3 being one of them, either on an open battlefield or close-quarters combat).

    I have never ever had something you describe happen to me, nor have I ever seen it happen to someone else. So either you're vastly overexaggerating the issue, or there's something else deeply wrong with your connection/hardware/server. So before suggesting exotic solutions like placing hitboxes in front of the actual model, let's first establish what exactly is causing you to die "two rooms over", because it's definitely not normal. Some actual documentation would be preferred over anactodal evidence in this regard.

    In any case, you don't have to lead your shots in NS2. If you aim at the body, you will register hits. BF3 is different because it has bullet velocity/drop, meaning you won't instantly hit the thing your crosshair is pointing at.
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