UWE to replace Vanilla NS2 with Sewlek's balance mod in the near future

thelawenforcerthelawenforcer Members Join Date: 2013-02-18 Member: 183176Posts: 148
the people i talk to say this is definitely going to happen. Seeing as its literally game changing, I thought it warranted its own thread where the discussion could focus not on particular details of the mod, but rather a more general discussion of these changes and what effects it might have on the game - positive and negative.
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Comments

  • thelawenforcerthelawenforcer Members Join Date: 2013-02-18 Member: 183176Posts: 148
    my concern is that the changes in this mod constitute to a large extent, reversions to how it was done in NS1 or to go back to something similarly inspired and that a small minority of the competitive community will decide how the game is to be played for the wider public. at peak times, using ns2stats, thats a small group of the 300 competitive players, deciding for the 2500 public players (does it count the public players not on ns2stats servers?). that just doesnt sound right to me...
  • ezekelezekel Members, NS2 Map Tester Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Posts: 1,385 Advanced user
    edited May 2013
    I'm sorry but what? The game is changing for the better; and not all of it is confirmed (or any of it?)

    This won't affect pub play at all really, the game is still played the same way just the progression is different. Aliens now have many options on what to do, and marines can now receive their upper tech quicker. Not to mention the welder starts enforces more teamplay

    let me put it to you this way

    casual vs casual = the same

    competitive vs competitive = the same

    It can be enjoyed by both, what exactly is changing for you as a "public player" (I'd say I'm a public player as well, just with a more competitive background) that this doesn't sound right to you? please explain
    AurOn2
  • thelawenforcerthelawenforcer Members Join Date: 2013-02-18 Member: 183176Posts: 148
    first of all, i hardly play public at all anymore, instead playing gathers and pcw's/matches with my team. before ns2 i played dm games competitively. there is a balance issue in ns2 competitive play, particularly with aliens and carapace. beyond that, im ok with it and think UWE have designed a good game(apart for the engine). its simple and easy to understand and in competitive, im sure that if the carapace issue was fixed cleanly alot of new options would become viable for aliens, and marines would have new counters and strategies to learn.

    if you dont think certain changes (new movement, removal of glancing bites and armories not repairing armor being three obvious examples) will have an impact on casual/public players you are deluded. some will no doubt enjoy the changes and others wont. whats unavoidable though is that there will be some drama and fallout, and that this will hurt NS2, neutralizing any possible good the mod does. the ns1 derived ns2 competitive scene is largely the driving force behind this mod and its implementation - i know for a fact that there are alot of misgiving's in the wider ns2 competitive scene about it and the planned implementation - its just important to remember that one scene is orders of magnitude bigger than the other, and has had no say in much of this, and I would wager is more or less completely in the dark on what is about to happen. they will wake up one day and find a completely different game. whether or not the new game is any good this is going to cause alot of drama, confusion and possibly disillusion among the casual NS2 players. every competitive players starts off as a casual, so i believe its in the wider interests of the game to keep the casual population of players as high as possible. i believe that whilst some resilient and dedicated players might enjoy and relish the changes, many more wont and will angrily stop playing the game. this exact thing has happened to countless games before, i dont see why NS2 would be any different.

    I didnt see anyone talking about how this mod would affect the community - and its very much a discussion that needs to be had imo.
    DerAndere
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call?Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,191 Fully active user
    Ezekel, there are some good things in there, but it's very far from a finished product. If bt went live today, it would cause mayhem for weeks, and likely put off a large percentage of the player base. I hope uwe doesn't decide to do that, but rather takes smaller steps (maybe not baby steps, but bt is VERY different from vanilla ns2)...
    For all your gorge busting needs.
    It is very strange how some1 who spend so much time makeing videos to help mans, can fall and take miror image of dark ages bourgeoisie, outdated set of belifs
    How True.
    DerAndere
  • ResRes Members Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Posts: 626
    The only things I'm against are the changes that would actually make this game harder for a newer player to learn the game. Such as bunnyhopping.

    The game's complexity is already one reason cited by many dropouts for why they stopped playing. Do we really need to add layers of more complexity for them?
    MrFangsTinkerMinimum
  • ezekelezekel Members, NS2 Map Tester Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Posts: 1,385 Advanced user
    edited May 2013
    ezekel wrote: »
    I'm sorry but what? The game is changing for the better; and not all of it is confirmed (or any of it?)

    This won't affect pub play at all really, the game is still played the same way just the progression is different. Aliens now have many options on what to do, and marines can now receive their upper tech quicker. Not to mention the welder starts enforces more teamplay

    let me put it to you this way

    casual vs casual = the same

    competitive vs competitive = the same

    It can be enjoyed by both, what exactly is changing for you as a "public player" (I'd say I'm a public player as well, just with a more competitive background) that this doesn't sound right to you? please explain

    Dont assume that your opinions are the only ones. The vocal minority like to come here to complain about anything and everything but the majority prefer to actually....you know.... play the game.

    I love the game as it is. It may need a few tweaks (imo) and optimisations still but its my favourite game.

    I still don't see your point, the game will play the same, the major difference you'd see is that now you get both you upgrades with a single spur/shell/veil, but require three of them in total for the max benefit. That and phantom has been combined for silence + camo and a new ability aura, armories no longer heal armor which enforces welding of team mates and welders are a starter item now for pres only, glancing bites removed etc.. obviously my opinion isn't the only one but what is changing so much that you'd stop playing the game? Really lost here; swapping from vanilla to BT almost every time I play and I'm still playing the same, only thing is now my skulk is no longer a piece of cement and marine shooting feels 10x better. I actually 100% prefer BT over the regular game atm and BT is the first thing I look for in the server browser
    Regnareb
  • CrazyEddieCrazyEddie Members Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178196Posts: 657
    whats unavoidable though is that there will be some drama

    Might as well get started on it now, then. Thanks for taking the lead on this.
  • FlaterectomyFlaterectomy NetherlandistanMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39643Posts: 939 Advanced user
    Res wrote: »
    The only things I'm against are the changes that would actually make this game harder for a newer player to learn the game. Such as bunnyhopping.

    The game's complexity is already one reason cited by many dropouts for why they stopped playing. Do we really need to add layers of more complexity for them?

    I don't think the addition of bunny hopping necessarily makes it more difficult for new players to learn the game. Rather, it raises the skill ceiling. I was admittedly never able to learn bunny hopping in the original Natural Selection, but I learned the game in its entirety just fine; I simply wasn't one of the better players.
    RegnarebDerAndere
  • sjusju Members Join Date: 2013-03-17 Member: 184042Posts: 78
    edited May 2013
    ezekel wrote: »
    Dont assume that your opinions are the only ones. The vocal minority like to come here to complain about anything and everything but the majority prefer to actually....you know.... play the game.

    I love the game as it is. It may need a few tweaks (imo) and optimisations still but its my favourite game.





    You'd be surprised how many people won't post their thoughts, facts, opinions or ideas because they feel it would be swept under the carpet.
    Siessen
  • CountCount Members Join Date: 2007-01-11 Member: 59559Posts: 7
    You forgot the question mark on the thread title.
  • hozzhozz Members Join Date: 2012-11-20 Member: 172660Posts: 340 Fully active user
    edited May 2013
    There are a lot of GREAT improvements in the mod.
    There's also a lot of problems, especially accessibility and "hidden variables".

    But it isn't finished yet. That's the point.

    Try it.
    I did, and I believe ultimately it will make NS2 a much better game when it is finished (bar any really stupid decisions that ruin it).
  • CrushaKCrushaK Members, NS2 Playtester Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Posts: 1,182 Advanced user
    First post by OP is "let's not talk about the changes of the mod in detail".
    Next post by OP is "the changes of the mod in general will make the game worse".
    lol

    if you dont think certain changes (new movement, removal of glancing bites and armories not repairing armor being three obvious examples) will have an impact on casual/public players you are deluded. some will no doubt enjoy the changes and others wont. whats unavoidable though is that there will be some drama and fallout, and that this will hurt NS2, neutralizing any possible good the mod does.

    Unavoidable yet unforeseeable consequences? I am intrigued, go on!

    the ns1 derived ns2 competitive scene is largely the driving force behind this mod and its implementation

    Orly? This statement would require you to list individual players who are the driving force behind it and then proof that they were NS1 players or even competitive NS2 players. You can already put me on the list of the counter argument, since I didn't have anything to do with this brand before NS2 and am also only playing in pubs. Yet I am a "driving force" behind the implementation of this mod. 0 - 1 against your argument already. :>

    - i know for a fact that there are alot of misgiving's in the wider ns2 competitive scene about it and the planned implementation -

    And surely you have something to back your "fact" up with, right?

    its just important to remember that one scene is orders of magnitude bigger than the other, and has had no say in much of this,

    There are no privileged players in this mod and nobody other than the devs themselves have a final "say" on what is going to be in the mod in the end. Everyone is free to test it and give feedback and suggestions on the implementation. If nobody of your declared "scene" ever bothered to give it a try and give some input on something that was long ago determined to possibly become the future of NS2, then they don't really have much right to complain if they don't like the outcome, since everyone always had the chance to influence it.

    and I would wager is more or less completely in the dark on what is about to happen. they will wake up one day and find a completely different game.

    Just one quote ago you claim that the "wider NS2 competitive scene" does not appreciate the mod and it's planned implementation and now you claim that the same scene was completely in the dark about the mod being implemented? You are contradicting yourself in the same sentence!

    whether or not the new game is any good this is going to cause alot of drama, confusion and possibly disillusion among the casual NS2 players.

    Like with every change in life. And like with every change people eventually get used to it. In fact they have to, once it will be the status quo of the game. And if I was in their place, I'd rather try to adjust to it than giving up on a game.

    You are exaggerating about the impacts, though. For one is it not guaranteed at all that there will be any drama except from a vocal minority. There is also not much ongoing confusion in the mod. And the way how UWE is going to introduce the changes (another detailed release video like the Gorgeous trailer or just a video that explains all the changes in detail, for instance) can help a lot to minimize any possible confusion at launch.
    And what are they supposed to be disillusioned about? That would require them to already have illusions about the game, which would be a bad thing in the first place.

    every competitive players starts off as a casual, so i believe its in the wider interests of the game to keep the casual population of players as high as possible.

    Which is why you make a massive update to the game, market it as reboot, possibly in combination with another free weekend on Steam, perhaps cause some big game review sites to report about the massive update, which creates more publicity for the game again and helps to get many new players into the game or cause those who already jumped off to give it a try again.

    i believe that whilst some resilient and dedicated players might enjoy and relish the changes, many more wont and will angrily stop playing the game.

    There are also people who believe that a guy walked over water about 2000 years ago. That doesn't mean that it's true either.


    this exact thing has happened to countless games before, i dont see why NS2 would be any different.

    Ok, you can surely name those "countless games" then that had a massive patch upon them which changed a lot of things for the better and was received as worse by the majority of their community.

    I didnt see anyone talking about how this mod would affect the community - and its very much a discussion that needs to be had imo.

    Opening your eyes from time to time might help with such issues.
    Suggestions:
    Tech Path of Hive actually upgrades the Hive itself
    Give Gorges telepathic control over their Bait Ball for Overlord-style commanding of Babblers

    And please allow to turn rooms into emergency-lit or dark versions if infestations grows over an unbuilt or damaged power node socket.
  • SyknikSyknik InversionNS2.com Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2064Posts: 531 Advanced user
    I wouldn't call the implementation of the movement technique "bunnyhopping". Its kinda trying to give that type of movement, but its very basic. Heck, you can hit forward and use strafing keys and pretty much get the speed required (if you hit off of walls). Definitely is not as difficult to learn as the HL1 version.
    Current Team: Lucky Chams - Syknik!
  • BacillusBacillus Members Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Posts: 2,774 Advanced user
    edited May 2013
    Res wrote: »
    The only things I'm against are the changes that would actually make this game harder for a newer player to learn the game. Such as bunnyhopping.

    The game's complexity is already one reason cited by many dropouts for why they stopped playing. Do we really need to add layers of more complexity for them?

    I don't think the addition of bunny hopping necessarily makes it more difficult for new players to learn the game. Rather, it raises the skill ceiling. I was admittedly never able to learn bunny hopping in the original Natural Selection, but I learned the game in its entirety just fine; I simply wasn't one of the better players.
    Just to be clear if some kind of bhop ends up being in the final product, I don't think anyone is asking it to be as inaccessible as it was in NS1. There are plenty of decent ideas on how to smooth out the learning experience without harming the depth aspect too much.
  • CrushaKCrushaK Members, NS2 Playtester Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Posts: 1,182 Advanced user
    I also find it funny that people think that the removal of glancing bites is going to make the game less intuitive for new players, yet it's actually less intuitive to have different damage numbers pop up depending on some not very obvious conditions like bite cone AND distance to the enemy.
    Suggestions:
    Tech Path of Hive actually upgrades the Hive itself
    Give Gorges telepathic control over their Bait Ball for Overlord-style commanding of Babblers

    And please allow to turn rooms into emergency-lit or dark versions if infestations grows over an unbuilt or damaged power node socket.
    RegnarebStardogSynVisionsTinker
  • thelawenforcerthelawenforcer Members Join Date: 2013-02-18 Member: 183176Posts: 148
    edited May 2013
    Syknik wrote: »
    I wouldn't call the implementation of the movement technique "bunnyhopping". Its kinda trying to give that type of movement, but its very basic. Heck, you can hit forward and use strafing keys and pretty much get the speed required (if you hit off of walls). Definitely is not as difficult to learn as the HL1 version.

    its alot more like bunnyhopping than what currently exists in NS2, and in general the mechanics are similar. to those who have played alot of bunnyhopping games in the past it may be simple enough certainly, but without tutorials, how do you expect others to learn? one of the main gripes with NS2 was the lack of tutorials already... do you see how this might be an issue? there are numerous other things like this to consider, and evidence suggests they havent.
    DerAndere
  • ezekelezekel Members, NS2 Map Tester Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Posts: 1,385 Advanced user
    Syknik wrote: »
    I wouldn't call the implementation of the movement technique "bunnyhopping". Its kinda trying to give that type of movement, but its very basic. Heck, you can hit forward and use strafing keys and pretty much get the speed required (if you hit off of walls). Definitely is not as difficult to learn as the HL1 version.

    Yes, bhop on goldsrc is much harder than source (I'm referring to this as source because that's exactly how it feels)

    Something like HL2:DM even had a much harder to learn bhop, but knowing that one was crucial to playing a match since it was simply a 1v1
  • FlaterectomyFlaterectomy NetherlandistanMembers, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39643Posts: 939 Advanced user
    Bacillus wrote: »
    Res wrote: »
    The only things I'm against are the changes that would actually make this game harder for a newer player to learn the game. Such as bunnyhopping.

    The game's complexity is already one reason cited by many dropouts for why they stopped playing. Do we really need to add layers of more complexity for them?

    I don't think the addition of bunny hopping necessarily makes it more difficult for new players to learn the game. Rather, it raises the skill ceiling. I was admittedly never able to learn bunny hopping in the original Natural Selection, but I learned the game in its entirety just fine; I simply wasn't one of the better players.
    Just to be clear if some kind of bhop ends up being in the final product, I don't think anyone is asking it to be as inaccessible as it was in NS1. There are plenty of decent ideas on how to smooth out the learning experience without harming the depth aspect too much.
    Oh I agree, I personally wouldn't mind at all if it was more accessible than how it worked before, given my inability to do it back then. :D It looks like it already is a lot more accessible in its current state, though. I hopped around the Descent ready room on a Balance Mod server earlier today (first time I played the mod), trying to get to grips with the new technique, and I managed to chain together a good number of hops pretty quickly.
  • KasharicKasharic Hull, EnglandMembers, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184473Posts: 722 mod
    Just a quick background on me, I'm pretty new to NS2, I joined at the end of march, i have just over 150 hours played time and I am now a regular pubber that has just joined a very new competitive team.

    I've never tried the balance mod, so I'm oblivious to the changes in it... but from reading these posts i think the alien upgrades system sounds far better. the armoury not healing armour sounds... interesting, making teamwork more vital in a teamwork game sounds like a damn good idea to me.. I already weld my team-mates anyway. and if the skulk movement is improved i say bring it live now! why the hell not.
    also, the bite cone being removed... GOOD, it is one of the more frustrating mechanics for me anyway.
    Having now said all of that, i'm very much tempted to try out the balance mod to see what all the fuss is about.
    Meph isn't an NSL admin anymore!

    #blameHefty
  • SolarisSolaris Members Join Date: 2003-05-11 Member: 16213Posts: 185
    the people i talk to say this is definitely going to happen. Seeing as its literally game changing, I thought it warranted its own thread where the discussion could focus not on particular details of the mod, but rather a more general discussion of these changes and what effects it might have on the game - positive and negative.

    Everyone is jumping right into the same discussions that are already active in the actual thread for the mod - nobody's questioning the opening statement. What are your sources? Who are "the people you talk to"? Just asking, because the people I talk to say that JimWest's magnetic boots are definitly going to be in vanilla NS2. I also heared rumors about revolving doors in summit and veil...

    The first rule of the tautology club is the first rule of the tautology club.
    halfofaheaven
  • bizbiz Members Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Posts: 415 Fully active user
    i find it odd that people want to increase the skill gap even more when the player base is so bad at vanilla NS2

    problem? teams in NS2 are rarely fair
    solution? raise the skill ceiling and increase the skill gap

    it makes no sense. even in competitive play, all the tournaments are completely lopsided.

    in a multiplayer game, experience is more important than design.
    if you stick around with gaming for long enough, you will learn this eventually... NS2 might die before then though


    I'm not going to go into the individual changes, but in terms of mechanics/balance three things need to happen:


    1) the game needs to stop relying so much on computer speed and LAN play. anything that makes it harder to play over the internet or anything that makes it harder for low-framerate players to land shots is a bad idea.

    there aren't enough players to actually sustain a fast-paced FPS on this engine. it's literally a lost cause. you can revisit the issue once UWE releases a massive performance patch (at least 2-3x improvement, preferably more) and fixes the netcode (i.e. 50 ms to server = 100-150 ms latency from bullets... not 500 ms)


    2) the game needs more strategic depth without becoming more complex (mechanically).

    the symptom you see is that players want there to be "more" to the game.
    the best games are about simple mechanics coming together to form strategic depth.
    trying to create depth via complex mechanics means you can wave goodbye to any new players and most existing ones
    fixing the problems with existing tech variety will do wonders for the game


    3) the game needs to be balanced for more levels of play

    the balance is really a joke right now... it seems designed around final win rates and nothing else
    a highly coordinated 6v6 with medspam and strong aimers welding each other is nothing like 95% of the games people are playing
    juggling such extreme differences just leads to two mediocre games instead of one good one
    Resturtal
  • thelawenforcerthelawenforcer Members Join Date: 2013-02-18 Member: 183176Posts: 148
    Solaris wrote: »
    the people i talk to say this is definitely going to happen. Seeing as its literally game changing, I thought it warranted its own thread where the discussion could focus not on particular details of the mod, but rather a more general discussion of these changes and what effects it might have on the game - positive and negative.

    Everyone is jumping right into the same discussions that are already active in the actual thread for the mod - nobody's questioning the opening statement. What are your sources? Who are "the people you talk to"? Just asking, because the people I talk to say that JimWest's magnetic boots are definitly going to be in vanilla NS2. I also heared rumors about revolving doors in summit and veil...

    the rumours have circulated for a few months now - frankly, i didnt believe them at first. the ENSL is holding a balance mod cup, in the announcement its stated clearly that BT will become vanilla NS2 in the near future. if you look in the 246 release thread i think you will see cory imply clearly that it will be implemented. If UWE were to officially confirm or deny whether this is going to happen it would make things quite clear. Afaik there is a newspost in the works. from some of my sources, i also understand that UWE have already purchased advertising space from valve in order to drum up another round of sales.
  • thelawenforcerthelawenforcer Members Join Date: 2013-02-18 Member: 183176Posts: 148
    from the ENSL head admin blind:

    "Wob, the goal is not to have players just play the Mod at the Cup - you should all start practicing it RIGHT NOW. 30-40 rounds is perfectly possible if you play your PCWs from now on on the mod.

    We HIGHLY encourage you to do that, because it is almost certain that MANY changes from the Mod will be carried into the real game VERY SOON. This could even be BEFORE the Cup starts.

    So the earlier you learn the changes and new strats, the better. We can only tell you this, no one should be surprised by an upcoming patch changing the balance of NS2 drastically."
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below)Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Posts: 1,669 Advanced user
    I will save my complaints or compliments until I actually play with the new changes. ;)
    To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to play Natural Selection 2. The gameplay is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of military strategy and advanced mathematics you won't even win a single game. Theres also the game's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into the game. The maps and artwork draw heavily from Riddley Scott's Alien franchise, for instance. The players understand this stuff, they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depth of the game, to realise that it's not just great, that it also says something about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Natural Selection 2 truly ARE idiots. of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in the Marines' existential catchphrase "how do I get to be so good", which itself is a cryptic reference to the high degree of intelligence required to play the game as intended. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion when spectating a game. What fools... how I pity them. And, yes, by the way, i DO have a Fade tatoo. And no, you cannot see it. it's for the ladies' eyes only, and even then they have to demonstrate that they are within 50 hive skill points of my own (preferable lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Posts: 3,432 Advanced user
    Not a fan of a lot of stuff in the Balance Mod, so we'll see how this goes...
    76561197996992409.png
    ritualsacrificeXaoYMICrazy
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorMembers, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 8,194 admin
    CrushaK wrote: »
    I also find it funny that people think that the removal of glancing bites is going to make the game less intuitive for new players, yet it's actually less intuitive to have different damage numbers pop up depending on some not very obvious conditions like bite cone AND distance to the enemy.
    The concept is sound and would be better for new players while not effecting skilled ones.
    It being only half implemented though, is what hurt all players, however.
    Shame.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
  • ruprechtruprecht Members Join Date: 2013-03-16 Member: 184022Posts: 40 Fully active user
    ezekel wrote: »
    ...landing "accidental bites" is not intuitive, removing the glance pretty much forces the bite to be on the marine.. much better this way
    the perfect bite on my screen is the accidental bite on yours.
    peregrinus
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