Please lower shotgun power

AscheAsche Join Date: 2013-03-19 Member: 184077Members
edited May 2013 in NS2 General Discussion
I usually not the one to rage in a game, but, since the build "Gorgeous" or I do not know which one, the shotgun is modified, that makes it more "accurate", why not ? But actualy it just put me off.

Without going further into my reasoning, i just want to say than i play "alien" normal way until marines do have the shotgun. Once they have, i go to another server, or i play Gorge.
I can not find any fun playing Alien from the moment the marines has the shotgun.

I explained very easily: nobody likes to be one shot, carapace or not.

I find the shotgun too powerful against the skulk, Lerk or even Fade ! how many times I'm engage in a fight against 2 marines with my Fade + cara and I ​survive during only 1 sec ?! just time too see thoses marines, and BAM two-shot, dead.
It really sucks, I wanted to report it.

Why dont lower it, for it's not "oneshot" skulk ? Just leaves him enough life to be able to, at least escape, and do not let him think that "whatever, I had no chance."
Please don't ignore that.
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Comments

  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    So when you have the shotgun, do you lose it a lot, or do you spend those 20 res then never die for the rest of the game?

    The shotgun is a powerful investment, but it's not all-dominating. A fade on its own SHOULD be wary of taking on 2 shotgun marines. A lerk can harass, being careful to maintain an escape route and keep moderate distance from the shotgunners, but that's really only to buy time for your teammates to respond to the threat and work together to take them down.

    Playing against a stacked team is no fun. Shotguns can seem to be the cause of this problem, but really I think that's masking the real issue: losing is not fun and losing when the other team has a couple or more players who are just much better than your team is really, really not fun.
    Just please don't blame bad teams on the shotgun...


  • DestherDesther Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Members
    Do you ever play Marines?
  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Members
    I think the shotgun is fine the way it is at close distance, but I don't think you should be hit for 50+ damage from across a room (as I often am). For 20 res you should be able to get a few skulks a life, assuming you're of equal skill.
  • current1ycurrent1y Join Date: 2003-12-08 Member: 24150Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    edited May 2013
    The shotgun is a bit powerful and I believe in the balance mod (something we all will be playing soon) the damage was reduced. Since this is your first post here you may not have heard about it. I would suggest you check it out.  http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/128755/sewleks-balance-mod/p1 

    However if you really do leave the server or perma gorge once shotguns come out I feel you should rethink your tactics a bit. You may find yourself enjoying playing the game more. Running head long into marines which sounds like to me what you are doing and being insta-gibbed while you brawl with them in a battle of the death is never fun. In general marines need to be the aggressors to win games so pick your battles wisely grasshopper :D
  • Wyattx3Wyattx3 Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18386Members

    I think you just have to keep in mind that a shotgun does cost resources. A marine with a shotgun should have an advantage against a skulk.

    That advantage should and does increase when you get multiple shotguns working together. 

    It takes a near direct hit for the most part to oneshot a skulk and in order for that to happen most of the time, you messed up before in setting up your engagement and are only aware of that when you get killed.

  • statikgstatikg Join Date: 2012-09-19 Member: 159978Members
    Its clear just the pure volume of repeated posts on this issue that there is a problem for the average player with shotguns.  Regardless of whether its balanced for comp play, which I would say it probably is, its damaging the games player base.
  • RicezRicez Join Date: 2013-04-13 Member: 184784Members
    edited May 2013
    I think SG is fine, but I can understand why people would dislike it.

    http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2477

    The second was whether you felt you were actually engaged with the person who killed you. Dying to someone you weren't engaged with, especially when you were already engaged with someone else, was aggravating. Even worse was dying to someone who you couldn't have engaged with, even if you chose to. In that case, you're very unlikely to believe you could have done anything differently to survive.

    With NS2 being the game it is I don't really see how you can stop shotguns being able to 1shot skulks without making shotguns useless, or at least making them kinda 'meh'.
  • Samus1111111Samus1111111 Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154930Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    TBH, I'd like to see some more options than the SG for "alien killing weapons". Atm, there's the LMG and the SG and the SG is just flat better in 95% of situations. I feel that a larger selection of weapons that have their own trade-offs and benefits could vary up the "OMG, EVERYONE GET SHOTGUNZZZ" that happens in comp play.
  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members
    TBH, I'd like to see some more options than the SG for "alien killing weapons". Atm, there's the LMG and the SG and the SG is just flat better in 95% of situations. I feel that a larger selection of weapons that have their own trade-offs and benefits could vary up the "OMG, EVERYONE GET SHOTGUNZZZ" that happens in comp play.
    the issue is aliens have the some problem (omg. everyone go fade)
    so the only marine answer is (omg. everyone get shotguns)
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    I dunno biz, there is still the "Onos F4!!!" trick from ye olde rules of engagement :P
  • TinkerTinker Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14395Members
    I kill shotgunners fine when I play. They are almost my favorite opponent because you have to play smart and anticipate the need to dodge. I almost never go shotgun because for all the people crying OP, I generally am more effective with the rifle do to position and teamwork.

    I wouldn't necessarily mind seeing it tweaked but how are you going to balance a close range shotgun vs a melee opponent. The melee opponent will kill you quite easily if you miss the 1st/2nd shots, so you need to be able to kill that quickly. The sole advantage of shotgun is a lowered "Time to Kill" within it's optimal engagement range. It DPS's lower than the rifle when reload time is considered so it's less than ideal vs structures (lower DPS and range gives you terrible positioning and a longer response time for aliens). 

    I hate to call L2P, but as someone who is barely above average in game shotguns don't require much to take out.
  • PaajtorPaajtor Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168634Members
    edited May 2013
    Asche said:
     until marines do have the shotgun. Once they have, i go to another server, or i play Gorge.

    If you do intend to keep playing Gorge, here are a few more tips:

    - Your gorge-spit can move shotguns that lie on the ground...use it to move the shotgun away from the location the previous owner lost it when he died. That way you can prevent the marines from retreiving the precious weapon, if you don't have bilebomb yet.

    - Gorge bile bomb can destroy any marine equipment that lies around (welders, jetpacks, shotguns)
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited May 2013
    Paajtor wrote: »
    If you do intend to keep playing Gorge, here are a few more tips:<br />
    <br />
    - Your gorge-spit can move shotguns that lie on the ground...use it to move the shotgun away from the location the previous owner lost it when he died. That way you can prevent the marines from retreiving the precious weapon, if you don't have bilebomb yet.<br />
    <br />
    - Gorge bile bomb can destroy any marine equipment that lies around (welders, jetpacks, shotguns)

    Nooo!!! Don't spread this!
    I hate gorges like you with an unrelenting passion.. This is why I chase your over fed ass clear across the map at my own peril... ~X(
    Grrrr
  • CrazyEddieCrazyEddie Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178196Members
    Without going further into my reasoning, i just want to say than i play "alien" normal way until marines do have the shotgun. Once they have, i go to another server, or i play Gorge.
    You're not playing NS2. You're playing some kind of shooter instead. NS2 is a strategy game, and dealing with an enemy that has powerful weapons is part of the strategy.

    You might find the ns2_combat mod more to your liking.

  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    edited May 2013
    Tinker wrote: »
    The melee opponent will kill you quite easily if you miss the 1st/2nd shots, so you need to be able to kill that quickly.

    Pretty sure that if a 3/3 marine stood perfectly still and allowed a skulk to bite him continuously, while he fired his shotgun into the ceiling, he would get off at least 4 shots before dying.

    I feel the primary issue with the shotgun to be that, after the 10th minute or so, hit and run is no longer an option. Leaping in and biting a marine 3 or so times won't even leave a scratch, and all he has to do is clip you to take you down. Being forced to stay in close quarters for prolonged periods of time with a one shot kill weapon is frustrating gameplay.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    Both Tier 3 upgrade values and shotgun damage output sound to me like rts elements impacting the game too heavily..
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    A key issue here is the limited choice of weapons for the marines, or more accurately, the limited need for choice.

    In my opinion, the alien team is currently operating in an exemplary way in terms of lifeform necessity. An alien team without gorges is a doomed team. An alien team without fades is a doomed team. An alien team without onos is a doomed team. And an alien team that neve goes lerk is going to struggle to put pressure on the marines. Every life form is required, and because of that, whenever they spend resources, they are thinking about what they are losing in the long run.
    Going gorge early means someone else must go lerk. Going lerk means someone else must go fade. Going fade means someone else must go Onos. Every purchase cuts you off from fulfilling any other of the necessary roles of the team.

    The marine team simply does not have this in any form. A marine player has only two concerns; when can I buy a shotgun, and when can I buy a dual exo. That's one choice at the very start of the game, and one choice at the very end. Every other choice is relatively cheap, and most importantly, relatively inconsequential. So what if you don't have a grenade launcher? Who cares if nobody can afford a flame thrower? Those weapons simply are not needed by the team. Jet packs are so cheap that you don't even need to concern yourself with their cost. Combine this with the fact that weapons are easily recyclable between players, and you have a situation where res expenditure is almost completely inconsequential to the marine team.

    This allows whole teams to suit up with shotguns. It allows players to lose their weapon and simply buy it back straight away.

    I know that people don't like homogenisation, but I feel that the shotgun needs to have its price increased to 25-30 res (preferably 30), and the 50 res exo suits need to become vital in marine survival. This seems to be the simplest solution currently.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Imbalanxd wrote: »
    In my opinion, the alien team is currently operating in an exemplary way in terms of lifeform necessity. An alien team without gorges is a doomed team. An alien team without fades is a doomed team. An alien team without onos is a doomed team. And an alien team that neve goes lerk is going to struggle to put pressure on the marines. Every life form is required, and because of that, whenever they spend resources, they are thinking about what they are losing in the long run.
    Going gorge early means someone else must go lerk. Going lerk means someone else must go fade. Going fade means someone else must go Onos. Every purchase cuts you off from fulfilling any other of the necessary roles of the team.

    The marine team simply does not have this in any form. A marine player has only two concerns; when can I buy a shotgun, and when can I buy a dual exo. That's one choice at the very start of the game, and one choice at the very end. Every other choice is relatively cheap, and most importantly, relatively inconsequential. So what if you don't have a grenade launcher? Who cares if nobody can afford a flame thrower? Those weapons simply are not needed by the team. Jet packs are so cheap that you don't even need to concern yourself with their cost. Combine this with the fact that weapons are easily recyclable between players, and you have a situation where res expenditure is almost completely inconsequential to the marine team.
    A nice way of putting the issue. Aliens do specialization much better than the 'jack-of-all-trades' marines. However, I think nerfing shotguns is only treating the symptom rather than the problem.

    Specifically, changing the purchasable weapons to supplemental equipment rather than weapon replacement (e.g. assault rifle AND shotgun/grenade launcher/flamethrower rather than OR). Then you can tailor those weapons to specific roles (e.g. grenade launcher only does structure damage or shotgun only works at extreme close range).
  • TinkerTinker Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14395Members
    Imbalanxd wrote: »
    Tinker wrote: »
    The melee opponent will kill you quite easily if you miss the 1st/2nd shots, so you need to be able to kill that quickly.

    Pretty sure that if a 3/3 marine stood perfectly still and allowed a skulk to bite him continuously, while he fired his shotgun into the ceiling, he would get off at least 4 shots before dying.

    I feel the primary issue with the shotgun to be that, after the 10th minute or so, hit and run is no longer an option. Leaping in and biting a marine 3 or so times won't even leave a scratch, and all he has to do is clip you to take you down. Being forced to stay in close quarters for prolonged periods of time with a one shot kill weapon is frustrating gameplay.

    Close he'd get precisely 3 shots at .9 seconds per shot while the skulk gets 5 bites. That's assuming they are already at weapons three. I'd like emphasize I'm not opposed to modifying the shotgun but I'm not sure how you'd go about it without making it a terrible weapon because it's frankly not as good as everyone is trying to make it out to be. (It is good but not nearly as good as is being implied)
  • AscheAsche Join Date: 2013-03-19 Member: 184077Members
    Sorry for the delay, but i was afk this weekend.

    I did not expect so many answers !

    Just some answers :
    @CrazyEddieI - I play NS2 more for the killing its true, but if i play NS instead of CoD or BF, its because i LOVE the strategic side of this game ! so epic ! Perfect merge ! But i probably not playing it as i should, my "FPS" side take over.
    But no big deal, i'm working on it :)

    @current1y - Surprise ! I have search for similar topics in this forum before posting, and i find this exact topic, with some other. Basically i agree with this mod, i need to try it. This "balance mod" makes deep change, res system first, i'm not confortable with that. Need to see in game.

    @Imbalanxd - Agree, Lower the power OR rise the cost.

    Why not include other weapons ? but please do not add cheating weapon like a sniper with thermal vision scope... if aliens can't hide for ambush, it will not have any interest.

    I see some people agree with my concern the SG, i feel less alone. I take distance now, try to play more brain, ambush, walk silent, take marines back's. and with the gorge, don't worry IronHorse, I already knew... :D
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    SG's current power level gives you that glimmer of hope when you end up facing a Fade 1vs1. Would be a bummer to lose that.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited May 2013
    The last change the the SG was a nerf to it's accuracy (the spread is almost doubled now I swear) and a SMALL damage boost to compensate. It's fine as it is, do not nerf. If anything is to be changed, increase the fades hp by 100/50.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    SG's current power level gives you that glimmer of hope when you end up facing a Fade 1vs1. Would be a bummer to lose that.

    What about the skulk's glimmer of hope?
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    A skulk shouldn't HAVE a glimmer of hope against a shotgun tbh.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    A skulk shouldn't HAVE a glimmer of hope against a shotgun tbh.

    Nevermind against a shotgun. How about at all after 10 minutes?
  • kespeckespec Join Date: 2012-11-18 Member: 172279Members
    edited May 2013
    A skulk shouldn't HAVE a glimmer of hope against a shotgun tbh.
    no
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    kespec wrote: »
    Ghosthree3 said:<br />
    A skulk shouldn't HAVE a glimmer of hope against a shotgun tbh.<br />
    <br />
    <br />
    no

    Why should a 0 res unit be able to kill a 20 res unit?
  • CyberKunCyberKun Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182733Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Horrible logic.

    Why should a 20 res Shotgun Marine be able to kill a Lerk/Fade solo? They spent more than the Shotgun dude did, this is not even talking about normal Marines with a rifle killing Gorges.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited May 2013
    I didn't say anything about lerks or fades at all, unless they are 0 res units now?

    Also gorges are strong enough as it is.

    EDIT: Also they will only kill the lerk/fade solo if the lerk/fade lets them. Or in rare cases it gets ambushed.
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