This past week was GDC, so most of the team was attending that for much of the week. But the programmers are still heavily focused on performance optimizations, and making some good progress there. We are also planning a patch ahead of the NSL Cologne finals, with some small balance adjustments and a few bug fixes, to improve things for the tournaments. Once the tournament is over, we'd like to start bringing over some larger changes from the Balance mod that Sewlek has been working on and testing, though no final decisions have been made yet on what specifically is going to get brought over to start with.
On the art side we are mainly focused on the next large content update, which is still months away, but that includes some fun new features. We are also working on a lot of concept art and environment art assets for several official maps that are in development.
Thanks for the update. Though I look forward to see how you guys will choose some of the largest changes from the balance mod. I also wonder how the final decision is made on what exactly enters the game. Some of Sewlek's changes are good and some are a bit odd so I hope it works out. I just hope that if the nerf bat is brought out, it will not detract the enjoyability from the game.
Thanks for the update. Though I look forward to see how you guys will choose some of the largest changes from the balance mod. I also wonder how the final decision is made on what exactly enters the game. Some of Sewlek's changes are good and some are a bit odd so I hope it works out. I just hope that if the nerf bat is brought out, it will not detract the enjoyability from the game.
According to what Sewlek said there:
The feature should either increase the fun, depth or replayability of the game. If it doesn't fulfill any of these three requirements, it won't be included.
If it's just an alternative balance change to something existing, then it is evaluated whether or not the change is fair (= fun).
It sounds bloody obvious once you actually wrote it down.
Just wondering if the next balance patch will be deployed soon enough before Cologne or if the teams need to prepare for some last-minute balance adjustments again.
Just wondering if the next balance patch will be deployed soon enough before Cologne or if the teams need to prepare for some last-minute balance adjustments again.
Still how will they determine what is fun? Since having fun playing increases playability for most, I feel it needs to be addressed properly. When the skulk got a nerf, some people found it lowered skulk enjoyability as well as the skill ceiling. Was it even determined if that change would be fun or not? If so how?
He also said:
"there are also few changes which cause an alternative balance, and not really fix something (exosuit changes for example), those should be in the category fun (or fairness) but if nobody likes that alternative, it will be removed. thats the whole purpose of the mod, and its extremely convenient to be able to change things that quickly via steam work shop opposed to how the regular ns2 updates happen."
Altering the actual mod based on feedback is fine but will the community receive a heads up on the specific changes being considered or will the changes just come sort of like the skulk acceleration decrease which people argue about a month later. The exosuit change he included is lowering the pres cost to 60 but nerfing the base armor to 270 at A0 and the damage at 20 for W0. Of course the max armor is now 420 and the weapons does 26 at W3 but how will this be determined if it is fun or not? I am not trying to start an entire balance issue debate just curiosity as to how fun is measured.
I sort of wish more people got involved in the balance test mod but I stopped once I found certain things not very enjoyable even though some of it was (Aliens) and arguing on that thread will just go into pages of the same arguments (Removing armory healing thread which stretched 19 pages and did not change much of the mod). Plus not every player spends time on these forums so I am curious if they will take steps to get a larger broad opinion of the people who play this game but do not leave much feedback on the balance mod/frequent forums.
Just curious, will UWE take any very well made ns2 custom maps and make them officially added to the game for everyone? I feel like that's a win-win
It encourages skilled mappers to make maps because they love to see their work out for everyone, and it gives players more maps to play on. So hopefully those can be thrown in every now and again
Altering the actual mod based on feedback is fine but will the community receive a heads up on the specific changes being considered or will the changes just come sort of like the skulk acceleration decrease which people argue about a month later. The exosuit change he included is lowering the pres cost to 60 but nerfing the base armor to 270 at A0 and the damage at 20 for W0. Of course the max armor is now 420 and the weapons does 26 at W3 but how will this be determined if it is fun or not? I am not trying to start an entire balance issue debate just curiosity as to how fun is measured.
From what I heard so far, the general consensus at least in pub play is that the rolling Exo pain train is not fun in it's current form because you easily lose all your higher lifeforms that you spent a lot of time waiting for without even getting close to killing the enemy Exos.
As soon as Exos hit the field, basically everything that is fun about alien gameplay (sneaking up, dodging, setting up ambushes, using your range advantage as Lerk, waiting for the enemy to reload or run out of ammo) gets reduced to a minimum.
I agree to the Exo nerf. It's still pretty dangerous but you can't let it roll out alone to take out an entire alien base anymore, similar to how you can't send an Onos out against five marines. It can still win head-on fights against an incoming Onos, but it now needs the help of the commander in the form of Nanoshield or welding MACs/marines. With the Exo now requiring more assistance from the rest of the team, it also means that it's not viable anymore in publics to have the entire team go Exo (and leave an Exo in every base to counter rushes) since it's overall weaker and there can only be one Nanoshield at a time.
Same as you don't really want your entire team to go Onos without having some Gorge and Umbra-Lerk support.
Just curious, will UWE take any very well made ns2 custom maps and make them officially added to the game for everyone? I feel like that's a win-win
It encourages skilled mappers to make maps because they love to see their work out for everyone, and it gives players more maps to play on. So hopefully those can be thrown in every now and again
Summit, veil, and descent we're all custom maps made by community members that have been made official. UWE has shown a strong willingness to incorporate well-made custom maps into the game.
From what I heard so far, the general consensus at least in pub play is that the rolling Exo pain train is not fun in it's current form because you easily lose all your higher lifeforms that you spent a lot of time waiting for without even getting close to killing the enemy Exos.
As soon as Exos hit the field, basically everything that is fun about alien gameplay (sneaking up, dodging, setting up ambushes, using your range advantage as Lerk, waiting for the enemy to reload or run out of ammo) gets reduced to a minimum.
I agree to the Exo nerf. It's still pretty dangerous but you can't let it roll out alone to take out an entire alien base anymore, similar to how you can't send an Onos out against five marines. It can still win head-on fights against an incoming Onos, but it now needs the help of the commander in the form of Nanoshield or welding MACs/marines. With the Exo now requiring more assistance from the rest of the team, it also means that it's not viable anymore in publics to have the entire team go Exo (and leave an Exo in every base to counter rushes) since it's overall weaker and there can only be one Nanoshield at a time.
Same as you don't really want your entire team to go Onos without having some Gorge and Umbra-Lerk support.
If an entire team of marines goes exos with the current status of the thing, they become a liability and can easily be crushed by a base rush even with 1 exo guarding the base it will fall very easily. An entire team of Onos can demolish marines just by going straight for the power node and wrecking stuff all over the map with their superior speed. Besides how many people are contributing to this consensus in total?
I still agree with you there. But the exo in general does not feel like a good addition to the marine team IMO for the reasons you listed for how it ruins the flow of the game in terms of how aliens play and how it demolishes alien lifeforms. Nerfing it's survivability will not make game play any more fun so I feel the entire mechanic should be changed though I doubt it will happen. Besides the exo's dps was still increased by 1 point on each minigun which would make it even more lethal to life forms at range. Dropping cost to 60 pres is alright and nanoshield is pretty decent. However, for me, marine weaponry is already limited to shotgun/jetpack since I never really go exo much either way and I wish it was different so that I had more incentive for the marine's supposed lumbering ultimate unit. Significant armor nerfs/ slight weapon buff/ and nano changes does not really change that in my opinion. Nano shield is another thing that suffers the same effect even though right now it is pretty annoying when used on marines (rarely in pubs) but the original effect should remain on structures or at least scale it to player counts when it comes to structures (power node in particular).
This past week was GDC, so most of the team was attending that for much of the week. But the programmers are still heavily focused on performance optimizations, and making some good progress there. We are also planning a patch ahead of the NSL Cologne finals, with some small balance adjustments and a few bug fixes, to improve things for the tournaments. Once the tournament is over, we'd like to start bringing over some larger changes from the Balance mod that Sewlek has been working on and testing, though no final decisions have been made yet on what specifically is going to get brought over to start with.
On the art side we are mainly focused on the next large content update, which is still months away, but that includes some fun new features. We are also working on a lot of concept art and environment art assets for several official maps that are in development.
There is some awesome news!!!!!!!!! Sewlek has alot of great changes on his mod Looking forward to it.
Hm +1 Ezekel - actually UWE shouldnt spent time on new maps, thats something the community can do and for the moment i like the custom maps as most because they usually do not lack performance.
Need performance boost only, should be main priority. Neither of the "performance fixes" that have come havent helped anything yet, still same poor performance you can feel it so bad mid / endgame, fix it
Besides the exo's dps was still increased by 1 point on each minigun which would make it even more lethal to life forms at range.
People often get Exos before W3, so the initial damage output would be one point lower than the current one. Plus tying the damage output to weapon upgrades means that taking the Arms Lab out is finally more bothersome to Exos, since it gimps their potential damage output by over 20%.
Really excited to see what changes make it over from the balance test! The biomass system is definitely a step up from the current alien tech tree for sure.
@CrushaK
I am not trying to start an entire balance issue debate just curiosity as to how fun is measured.
That's kind of like asking, how does a musician make a song sound good? The only way to know for sure is to try it and see what people think (ie. people playing Sewlek's mod, and our PT volunteers). And even then, you can't know for sure how EVERYONE will feel about it. And even then, how people feel about it won't tell you how to fix it. So, it's a black art really.
Really excited to see what changes make it over from the balance test! The biomass system is definitely a step up from the current alien tech tree for sure.
This, for sure, and the upgrade system. It just brings a lot more to the alien t.res economy overall and adds a whole lot of depth that is direly needed for aliens.
@CrushaK
I am not trying to start an entire balance issue debate just curiosity as to how fun is measured.
That's kind of like asking, how does a musician make a song sound good? The only way to know for sure is to try it and see what people think (ie. people playing Sewlek's mod, and our PT volunteers). And even then, you can't know for sure how EVERYONE will feel about it. And even then, how people feel about it won't tell you how to fix it. So, it's a black art really.
Maybe you should advertise sewlek's server and make a thread about it asking about the changes (if people like them or not) you are about to put in the game from sewlek's mod.
@CrushaK
I am not trying to start an entire balance issue debate just curiosity as to how fun is measured.
That's kind of like asking, how does a musician make a song sound good? The only way to know for sure is to try it and see what people think (ie. people playing Sewlek's mod, and our PT volunteers). And even then, you can't know for sure how EVERYONE will feel about it. And even then, how people feel about it won't tell you how to fix it. So, it's a black art really.
Maybe you should advertise sewlek's server and make a thread about it asking about the changes (if people like them or not) you are about to put in the game from sewlek's mod.
I wouldn't worry about it, just patch in the best parts of Sewlek's mod and wait and see if there will be a huge outcry or not.
@CrushaK
I am not trying to start an entire balance issue debate just curiosity as to how fun is measured.
That's kind of like asking, how does a musician make a song sound good? The only way to know for sure is to try it and see what people think (ie. people playing Sewlek's mod, and our PT volunteers). And even then, you can't know for sure how EVERYONE will feel about it. And even then, how people feel about it won't tell you how to fix it. So, it's a black art really.
You are right about how most of us cannot tell you how to fix it properly and only just complain about it. Although I have seen some posters come up with great ideas on how they feel about the state of balance. Such as the people who thought alien win rate was based on the alien economy and how aliens can get by with less RT's. However the change of nerfing skulk movement was preferred over the other alternatives including the entire topic Xarius created who also forwarded the general consensus of the people who participated in the topic. In the end it just ended in lowered skulk enjoyability at least for me. So I was curious as the process to how the skulk was deemed enjoyable after the change.
The community has and will continue giving feedback on Sewlek's mod but what worries me is the immense number of changes his mod contains. It is difficult to focus giving feedback on every single change and so a little heads up as to what is being considered in his mod (When the time comes) so people can give specific feedback on those changes and not write pages on something that will not make it in either way.
Maybe you should advertise sewlek's server and make a thread about it asking about the changes (if people like them or not) you are about to put in the game from sewlek's mod.
It's pretty easy to find a NS2 BT (balance test) server these days, I see at least 1 filled every evening on EU timezones and it's slowly gathering more followers for sure. (Which is quite an achievement with how hesitant people are to join modded servers) Try it! Gameplay is far superior to what you're used to in vanilla.
On the art side we are mainly focused on the next large content update, which is still months away, but that includes some fun new features. We are also working on a lot of concept art and environment art assets for several official maps that are in development.
I sort of agree with frallan123 on focusing on 'core' things. The last patch really up'd performance, great work! There is still a lot of interp in alien melee and shotguns though, which heavily affects jetpacks and fades' blinking. Hit registration 'server side' should line up with 'client side' better. Hit reg is easily top 2 priority in FPS games.
Note: I don't know if interp values on ns2 correlate to HL ns1, but I saw in console that server interp is set to .08? If the interp numbers are similar to HL1's, that is very high. .01-.03 were HL1 interp numbers for leagues and such.
Besides the exo's dps was still increased by 1 point on each minigun which would make it even more lethal to life forms at range.
People often get Exos before W3, so the initial damage output would be one point lower than the current one. Plus tying the damage output to weapon upgrades means that taking the Arms Lab out is finally more bothersome to Exos, since it gimps their potential damage output by over 20%.
I thought that Exos don't benefit from weapons upgrades, only armor upgrades.
btw sewlek, could you link me to you youtube page?
I can't seem to find it.
You had some pretty awesome mod videos on there and would like to see if you've loaded up anymore content.
Comments
On the art side we are mainly focused on the next large content update, which is still months away, but that includes some fun new features. We are also working on a lot of concept art and environment art assets for several official maps that are in development.
According to what Sewlek said there:
The feature should either increase the fun, depth or replayability of the game. If it doesn't fulfill any of these three requirements, it won't be included.
If it's just an alternative balance change to something existing, then it is evaluated whether or not the change is fair (= fun).
It sounds bloody obvious once you actually wrote it down.
Just wondering if the next balance patch will be deployed soon enough before Cologne or if the teams need to prepare for some last-minute balance adjustments again.
This little guy is planned to go out before Cologne afaik: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=133339748
After that, it's big brother will be the focus - http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=130391092
Still how will they determine what is fun? Since having fun playing increases playability for most, I feel it needs to be addressed properly. When the skulk got a nerf, some people found it lowered skulk enjoyability as well as the skill ceiling. Was it even determined if that change would be fun or not? If so how?
He also said:
"there are also few changes which cause an alternative balance, and not really fix something (exosuit changes for example), those should be in the category fun (or fairness) but if nobody likes that alternative, it will be removed. thats the whole purpose of the mod, and its extremely convenient to be able to change things that quickly via steam work shop opposed to how the regular ns2 updates happen."
Altering the actual mod based on feedback is fine but will the community receive a heads up on the specific changes being considered or will the changes just come sort of like the skulk acceleration decrease which people argue about a month later. The exosuit change he included is lowering the pres cost to 60 but nerfing the base armor to 270 at A0 and the damage at 20 for W0. Of course the max armor is now 420 and the weapons does 26 at W3 but how will this be determined if it is fun or not? I am not trying to start an entire balance issue debate just curiosity as to how fun is measured.
I sort of wish more people got involved in the balance test mod but I stopped once I found certain things not very enjoyable even though some of it was (Aliens) and arguing on that thread will just go into pages of the same arguments (Removing armory healing thread which stretched 19 pages and did not change much of the mod). Plus not every player spends time on these forums so I am curious if they will take steps to get a larger broad opinion of the people who play this game but do not leave much feedback on the balance mod/frequent forums.
It encourages skilled mappers to make maps because they love to see their work out for everyone, and it gives players more maps to play on. So hopefully those can be thrown in every now and again
From what I heard so far, the general consensus at least in pub play is that the rolling Exo pain train is not fun in it's current form because you easily lose all your higher lifeforms that you spent a lot of time waiting for without even getting close to killing the enemy Exos.
As soon as Exos hit the field, basically everything that is fun about alien gameplay (sneaking up, dodging, setting up ambushes, using your range advantage as Lerk, waiting for the enemy to reload or run out of ammo) gets reduced to a minimum.
I agree to the Exo nerf. It's still pretty dangerous but you can't let it roll out alone to take out an entire alien base anymore, similar to how you can't send an Onos out against five marines. It can still win head-on fights against an incoming Onos, but it now needs the help of the commander in the form of Nanoshield or welding MACs/marines. With the Exo now requiring more assistance from the rest of the team, it also means that it's not viable anymore in publics to have the entire team go Exo (and leave an Exo in every base to counter rushes) since it's overall weaker and there can only be one Nanoshield at a time.
Same as you don't really want your entire team to go Onos without having some Gorge and Umbra-Lerk support.
If an entire team of marines goes exos with the current status of the thing, they become a liability and can easily be crushed by a base rush even with 1 exo guarding the base it will fall very easily. An entire team of Onos can demolish marines just by going straight for the power node and wrecking stuff all over the map with their superior speed. Besides how many people are contributing to this consensus in total?
I still agree with you there. But the exo in general does not feel like a good addition to the marine team IMO for the reasons you listed for how it ruins the flow of the game in terms of how aliens play and how it demolishes alien lifeforms. Nerfing it's survivability will not make game play any more fun so I feel the entire mechanic should be changed though I doubt it will happen. Besides the exo's dps was still increased by 1 point on each minigun which would make it even more lethal to life forms at range. Dropping cost to 60 pres is alright and nanoshield is pretty decent. However, for me, marine weaponry is already limited to shotgun/jetpack since I never really go exo much either way and I wish it was different so that I had more incentive for the marine's supposed lumbering ultimate unit. Significant armor nerfs/ slight weapon buff/ and nano changes does not really change that in my opinion. Nano shield is another thing that suffers the same effect even though right now it is pretty annoying when used on marines (rarely in pubs) but the original effect should remain on structures or at least scale it to player counts when it comes to structures (power node in particular).
There is some awesome news!!!!!!!!! Sewlek has alot of great changes on his mod
People often get Exos before W3, so the initial damage output would be one point lower than the current one. Plus tying the damage output to weapon upgrades means that taking the Arms Lab out is finally more bothersome to Exos, since it gimps their potential damage output by over 20%.
Really excited to see what changes make it over from the balance test! The biomass system is definitely a step up from the current alien tech tree for sure.
That's kind of like asking, how does a musician make a song sound good? The only way to know for sure is to try it and see what people think (ie. people playing Sewlek's mod, and our PT volunteers). And even then, you can't know for sure how EVERYONE will feel about it. And even then, how people feel about it won't tell you how to fix it. So, it's a black art really.
This, for sure, and the upgrade system. It just brings a lot more to the alien t.res economy overall and adds a whole lot of depth that is direly needed for aliens.
Maybe you should advertise sewlek's server and make a thread about it asking about the changes (if people like them or not) you are about to put in the game from sewlek's mod.
I wouldn't worry about it, just patch in the best parts of Sewlek's mod and wait and see if there will be a huge outcry or not.
You are right about how most of us cannot tell you how to fix it properly and only just complain about it. Although I have seen some posters come up with great ideas on how they feel about the state of balance. Such as the people who thought alien win rate was based on the alien economy and how aliens can get by with less RT's. However the change of nerfing skulk movement was preferred over the other alternatives including the entire topic Xarius created who also forwarded the general consensus of the people who participated in the topic. In the end it just ended in lowered skulk enjoyability at least for me. So I was curious as the process to how the skulk was deemed enjoyable after the change.
The community has and will continue giving feedback on Sewlek's mod but what worries me is the immense number of changes his mod contains. It is difficult to focus giving feedback on every single change and so a little heads up as to what is being considered in his mod (When the time comes) so people can give specific feedback on those changes and not write pages on something that will not make it in either way.
While I don't like all the changes, the UWE teams been working hard.
I'd swear other dev teams would have taken some time off.
It's pretty easy to find a NS2 BT (balance test) server these days, I see at least 1 filled every evening on EU timezones and it's slowly gathering more followers for sure. (Which is quite an achievement with how hesitant people are to join modded servers) Try it! Gameplay is far superior to what you're used to in vanilla.
eclipse included?
Note: I don't know if interp values on ns2 correlate to HL ns1, but I saw in console that server interp is set to .08? If the interp numbers are similar to HL1's, that is very high. .01-.03 were HL1 interp numbers for leagues and such.
I thought that Exos don't benefit from weapons upgrades, only armor upgrades.
btw sewlek, could you link me to you youtube page?
I can't seem to find it.
You had some pretty awesome mod videos on there and would like to see if you've loaded up anymore content.