Perhaps if there was some way to make veterans who join rookie servers automatically command? That could backfire quickly though.
I don't like having only rookies on rookie servers for the whole blind leading the blind thing. But I fear the only way to actually control who can join a rookie server is with some sort of ranking system as has been suggested a lot. But for a ranking system to truly get a grasp of a player's NS2 worth it must take into account a lot of things. Mind you an average KDR might be appropriate for this usage. But I still can't fathom the complexity of a system that would actually give decent results.
For KDR alone, you'd have to take into account the average KDRs of the other players, the server you're playing on, who it is you're dying to, who it is you're killing. For a truly comprehensive "worth calculator" stuff like extractor saves, phase gates saved, command station saves, assists, welding time, and buildings built should also be taken into account. You may have the best KDR on the server, but your team can still lose.
TL/DR: Rookie servers shouldn't only have rookies present. But there's no way I can think of with the current set up where we can accurately regulate who is on a rookie server.
To me it's just a label that can be put on so rookies can try and get with other rookies.
No, rookie friendly does not mean rookie training. It doesn't mean you can't go in there and have a good game, or kill a bunch of people. It doesn't mean that the server can't be populated by veterans and rookies can't be told to not be so stupid.
Most people are going to pop open the server browser and join a game that has a certain number of players whether they like 20+ or lower numbers, and by the ping. It's great that you have some rookie crusade complex, but it's really that simple.
Perhaps if there was some way to make veterans who join rookie servers automatically command? That could backfire quickly though.
That would be fucking awful. What if I want to play as a TSF soldier on the ground? I just can't? I didn't pay for this game for it to tell me I can't play it the way I want.
Rookie friendly means your server will have players in it. It means little, as of late. More players join rookie servers. Just like less (read: no) players join modded servers.
I don't want to derail the conversation, but that's the way it works today.
I disagree with that on a pretty fundamental level. It can be hard to learn the game if there's someone in there way more experienced that can outplay the rest of the server with raw skill, but it's just as hard for people to learn and grow as players if the only other people they have contact with lack game knowledge. If newbies only play with newbies they're liable to stay newbies forever, or at least take much longer to catch up with the community as a whole.
It's a hard thing to implement practically but the ideal solution is for veteran players that do find themselves on rookie servers to realize that fact and make an effort to help them learn the game instead of exploiting their inexperience for some cheap thrills. It's a burden placed squarely on the community to... well, just be nicer people. I don't understand why the prevailing notion is that humanity sucks so much that this is an impossible task... if you ask me it takes more energy to be a BM jackhole than it does to be polite and help someone out if they're having trouble.
Rookie friendly servers are cool when the rookies actually watch some tutorial videos before jumping in and mindlessly flail around until they find the command chair and starts the round pre-maturely.
unfortunately,my favorites list is predominantly green, except for old fogies and penny arcade. and the green servers tend to have less reserved slot foolishness.
I'm finding that to be true as well. Most if not all of the decent servers happen to be rookie friendly servers. The fact that I enjoy larger games also has something to do with that, 20 is my sweet spot, but I'd rather go up than down.
I disagree with that on a pretty fundamental level. It can be hard to learn the game if there's someone in there way more experienced that can outplay the rest of the server with raw skill, but it's just as hard for people to learn and grow as players if the only other people they have contact with lack game knowledge. If newbies only play with newbies they're liable to stay newbies forever, or at least take much longer to catch up with the community as a whole.
You can already see this on a lot of servers.. you join a server and grab carapace instead of celerity then get berated for being a shitty commander or something.. i've been kicked out the chair for grabbing carapace like 3 times, cause "carapace is the least useful ability."
If rookies only play with rookies, they will never actually learn the game.
I disagree with that on a pretty fundamental level. It can be hard to learn the game if there's someone in there way more experienced that can outplay the rest of the server with raw skill, but it's just as hard for people to learn and grow as players if the only other people they have contact with lack game knowledge. If newbies only play with newbies they're liable to stay newbies forever, or at least take much longer to catch up with the community as a whole.
You can already see this on a lot of servers.. you join a server and grab carapace instead of celerity then get berated for being a shitty commander or something.. i've been kicked out the chair for grabbing carapace like 3 times, cause "carapace is the least useful ability."
If rookies only play with rookies, they will never actually learn the game.
That's hilariously stupid. I mean I could see that argument coming up for every single ability EXCEPT carapace.
Silence is the least usful ability because you can just crouch, becuase obs/scans and marines can still see you anyway
Camo is the least useful because of obs/scans and now you can't even move with camo on.
celerity is the least useful because it doesn't work in combat when you actually need speed. It's a death-recovery when you shouldn't be dying.
Adrenaline is the least useful because energy regens too fast anyway, and you don't really have any spamable energy draining abilities.
Regen is only useful out of combat and you have to survive combat first and you can just use a crag or hive.
Carapace... seriously there's no way it's not useful. You survive more hits. 40% more for a skulk.
Uhhh, adrenaline is fantastic, silence is fantastic.
Sigh....
I was trying to explain the arguments people might use to say that each upgrade is the "least useful". Out of all of them, the only one I can't come up with any reason why a player of any skill level or strange and insular community would ever call least useful is Carapace.
You can already see this on a lot of servers.. you join a server and grab carapace instead of celerity then get berated for being a shitty commander or something.. i've been kicked out the chair for grabbing carapace like 3 times, cause "carapace is the least useful ability."
I don't know what servers you play on but I've never been kicked out of a chair for doing something unconventional. I've found that as long as you explain your reasoning (throw in that it's used a lot in professional matches, or that we're just trying something new out) people won't mind. Also once it becomes evident that things are either going uphill or downhill, analyze why that may be (we're getting egglocked, we can't survive against the shotguns with weapons 2, oh stink they have exos now) and keep talking to your people.
Sometimes you do have to get the server to know you a little before you do something crazy (don't just jump in, sieze the chair, and say Alright guys, we're going silence first!).
Next question then, why would so many of our popular servers be rookie friendly? I don't think it's that they're popular because they're rookie friendly. I think it's cause a lot of us joined them when we were rookies and since then gotten better, stuck to the server but the server hasn't gotten off its rookie tags. Thoughts?
I disagree with that on a pretty fundamental level. It can be hard to learn the game if there's someone in there way more experienced that can outplay the rest of the server with raw skill, but it's just as hard for people to learn and grow as players if the only other people they have contact with lack game knowledge. If newbies only play with newbies they're liable to stay newbies forever, or at least take much longer to catch up with the community as a whole.
It's a hard thing to implement practically but the ideal solution is for veteran players that do find themselves on rookie servers to realize that fact and make an effort to help them learn the game instead of exploiting their inexperience for some cheap thrills. It's a burden placed squarely on the community to... well, just be nicer people. I don't understand why the prevailing notion is that humanity sucks so much that this is an impossible task... if you ask me it takes more energy to be a BM jackhole than it does to be polite and help someone out if they're having trouble.
Rookie status doesn't last forever so its not like they'll never be exposed to more skilled players. However, the best way to learn is to do. Having experienced players help out is definitely desirable, but even if every vet helped, there simply aren't enough of us to go around. The best methods I've seen for teaching newbies in any game is
- Having all the most common questions answered in-game (e.g. tooltips, videos, hints, tutorial levels, etc)
- Matching those rookies with people of equal skill (e.g. other rookies)
If you give new players the tools and opportunity to learn the game at their own pace, they'll have the most fun.
The biggest problem is the comm, as you need someone at least minimally competent to ensure the game isn't ruined. My preference is a simple comm bot, but having a method to allow non-rookies into the server (e.g. have a vetallowed.json where you can list the non-rookies allowed on your server) would be a potential stopgap.
Rookie friendly means, friendly to rookies, in my opinion. Intermediates, veterans and the elite can join, but can't complain about rookies. The more experienced are expected to be nice to rookies and teaching is encouraged.
I don't think kicking out good KDR players is a good move, especially with firstperson spectator. New players can learn from watching a good player, and that player can give advice or answer questions.
Vets shouldn't be stacking, as it's not a challenge and offers very little as a reward. The elite have no need to stack or prefer either side over the other.
Rookie friendly means, friendly to rookies, in my opinion. Intermediates, veterans and the elite can join, but can't complain about rookies. The more experienced are expected to be nice to rookies and teaching is encouraged.
I don't think kicking out good KDR players is a good move, especially with firstperson spectator. New players can learn from watching a good player, and that player can give advice or answer questions.
Vets shouldn't be stacking, as it's not a challenge and offers very little as a reward. The elite have no need to stack or prefer either side over the other.
I agree with the "Friendly to rookies" point, although that only goes so far. I'll let a rookie jump in com, and I'll help tell him what to place where and such, but if he stops listening it stops being a rookie problem and starts being something I will not tolerate.
Just for a clarification, if I tell you to place something, you can either do it, ask how to do it, or state that you won't do it/are doing something else first.
On the upside however there are quite a couple of servers out there that have very active admins that will deal with unfriendly players.
Now that would be a useful indicator / filter on the server list : administrated and/or admin actually in game.
That would be useful actually. If this is similar to the source dedicated servers where the admins can use their client with a password, it shouldn't involve too much jury-rigging?
I see no problem with good players who can stomp new players playing on a Rookie Friendly server.
The game is HARD, and the sooner Rookies realise that, the better. Imagine playing games for 4 hours that are 8 Rookies vs. 8 Rookies - you wouldn't learn the mechanics of the game, and you'd start entering non-Rookie servers and you'd still have exactly the same learning curve as if you'd joined a white server from the very first launch of your game. You need to die a lot to learn how to Marine/Skulk properly.
I think of a Rookie server as one that these pub-stompers have NO RIGHT to complain about inexperienced players, and one where it's actually preferred for Veteran players to join so they can explain how to evolve new traits, how to request ammo/meds, how to build the power before the RT, how to flap your wings to fly as a Lerk (lol) etc. The NS2 community is, for the most part, excellent, and I've seen the majority of Rookie Friendly servers (especially those clan-run as opposed to server company demo servers) doing things right.
Don't waste you're time this game is for competitive players only.
I played 500 hours and the pattern is always the same: 2-3 guys that decide of the balance for all the others.
Better find another shooter if you are looking for a rookie friendly field.
This is an attitude that ultimately leads to a capped community that isn't going to grow or expand. Going in to games with this chip on your shoulder and treating new players like crap will end with the same handful of people playing the game and it ultimately failing. This is a product to be enjoyed by all who buy it, not a private play ground for the "elite" players only.
Don't waste you're time this game is for competitive players only.
I played 500 hours and the pattern is always the same: 2-3 guys that decide of the balance for all the others.
Better find another shooter if you are looking for a rookie friendly field.
This is an attitude that ultimately leads to a capped community that isn't going to grow or expand. Going in to games with this chip on your shoulder and treating new players like crap will end with the same handful of people playing the game and it ultimately failing. This is a product to be enjoyed by all who buy it, not a private play ground for the "elite" players only.
I'm in agreement with you Von. Players that think a game is only meant to be played with competitive players ruin games. I got the game during free-weekend. During that time I was yelled at for my "Lack of knowledge". I played several games with players that only cared about the win and discarded me from existence not even wanting to help teach me the basics.
People like you Mad, scare away future players.
Right now I am a very good commander, and know the basics pretty well. I gained that from a single guy who took the time to teach me over the course of a few games.
I see no problem with good players who can stomp new players playing on a Rookie Friendly server.
The game is HARD, and the sooner Rookies realise that, the better. Imagine playing games for 4 hours that are 8 Rookies vs. 8 Rookies - you wouldn't learn the mechanics of the game, and you'd start entering non-Rookie servers and you'd still have exactly the same learning curve as if you'd joined a white server from the very first launch of your game. You need to die a lot to learn how to Marine/Skulk properly.
I think of a Rookie server as one that these pub-stompers have NO RIGHT to complain about inexperienced players, and one where it's actually preferred for Veteran players to join so they can explain how to evolve new traits, how to request ammo/meds, how to build the power before the RT, how to flap your wings to fly as a Lerk (lol) etc. The NS2 community is, for the most part, excellent, and I've seen the majority of Rookie Friendly servers (especially those clan-run as opposed to server company demo servers) doing things right.
Please be more specific. You're making it sound like you approve vets stomping beginners on a rookie server. Which is something clearly not approved by the majority or UWE (though not enforced). On top of that, getting stomped doesn't teach you anything, a challenge does.
But I suppose you didn't mean the 50/5 kind of stomping.
You guys don't get it. I trained and helped quite a lot of new players during the free week. In fact I was so happy to have new players that I only did that. Crash course on aliens, marines and commanding for both side. It was quite fun.
What I'm saying is that competitive players or the like coming to pub games are the ones keeping it from expanding. They take all the place, make most of the kills and completely unbalance the match they are in.
Again today in exemple: one dude got a score of 55-5 and managed to save the aliens all by himself. How boring was that? The game before everybody was about of the same skill and congrulations where made at the end of the match in the lobby. Next game: peoples where angry and the server emptied itself of half it's players.
Now you tell me a way to go around that. Because I had way too many noobs during this week say "You know what fuck this shit I'll uninstall this game and do something else. I'm just getting slaughtered." Or on other words: "I'm not learning a thing and there is nothing intuitive about this game. So goodbye." How can you hope to get a larger audience when it's so easy to get that kind of reaction because a few careless players don't care about how long NS2 will last anyway?
There should be pro servers it's that simple. Rookie, casual and pro. That would be a start.
Comments
I don't like having only rookies on rookie servers for the whole blind leading the blind thing. But I fear the only way to actually control who can join a rookie server is with some sort of ranking system as has been suggested a lot. But for a ranking system to truly get a grasp of a player's NS2 worth it must take into account a lot of things. Mind you an average KDR might be appropriate for this usage. But I still can't fathom the complexity of a system that would actually give decent results.
For KDR alone, you'd have to take into account the average KDRs of the other players, the server you're playing on, who it is you're dying to, who it is you're killing. For a truly comprehensive "worth calculator" stuff like extractor saves, phase gates saved, command station saves, assists, welding time, and buildings built should also be taken into account. You may have the best KDR on the server, but your team can still lose.
TL/DR: Rookie servers shouldn't only have rookies present. But there's no way I can think of with the current set up where we can accurately regulate who is on a rookie server.
No, rookie friendly does not mean rookie training. It doesn't mean you can't go in there and have a good game, or kill a bunch of people. It doesn't mean that the server can't be populated by veterans and rookies can't be told to not be so stupid.
Most people are going to pop open the server browser and join a game that has a certain number of players whether they like 20+ or lower numbers, and by the ping. It's great that you have some rookie crusade complex, but it's really that simple.
That would be fucking awful. What if I want to play as a TSF soldier on the ground? I just can't? I didn't pay for this game for it to tell me I can't play it the way I want.
I don't want to derail the conversation, but that's the way it works today.
It's a hard thing to implement practically but the ideal solution is for veteran players that do find themselves on rookie servers to realize that fact and make an effort to help them learn the game instead of exploiting their inexperience for some cheap thrills. It's a burden placed squarely on the community to... well, just be nicer people. I don't understand why the prevailing notion is that humanity sucks so much that this is an impossible task... if you ask me it takes more energy to be a BM jackhole than it does to be polite and help someone out if they're having trouble.
I'm finding that to be true as well. Most if not all of the decent servers happen to be rookie friendly servers. The fact that I enjoy larger games also has something to do with that, 20 is my sweet spot, but I'd rather go up than down.
You can already see this on a lot of servers.. you join a server and grab carapace instead of celerity then get berated for being a shitty commander or something.. i've been kicked out the chair for grabbing carapace like 3 times, cause "carapace is the least useful ability."
If rookies only play with rookies, they will never actually learn the game.
That's hilariously stupid. I mean I could see that argument coming up for every single ability EXCEPT carapace.
Silence is the least usful ability because you can just crouch, becuase obs/scans and marines can still see you anyway
Camo is the least useful because of obs/scans and now you can't even move with camo on.
celerity is the least useful because it doesn't work in combat when you actually need speed. It's a death-recovery when you shouldn't be dying.
Adrenaline is the least useful because energy regens too fast anyway, and you don't really have any spamable energy draining abilities.
Regen is only useful out of combat and you have to survive combat first and you can just use a crag or hive.
Carapace... seriously there's no way it's not useful. You survive more hits. 40% more for a skulk.
Sigh....
I was trying to explain the arguments people might use to say that each upgrade is the "least useful". Out of all of them, the only one I can't come up with any reason why a player of any skill level or strange and insular community would ever call least useful is Carapace.
Sometimes you do have to get the server to know you a little before you do something crazy (don't just jump in, sieze the chair, and say Alright guys, we're going silence first!).
Next question then, why would so many of our popular servers be rookie friendly? I don't think it's that they're popular because they're rookie friendly. I think it's cause a lot of us joined them when we were rookies and since then gotten better, stuck to the server but the server hasn't gotten off its rookie tags. Thoughts?
*Sometimes I will build one earlier, if the marines are getting slaughtered(ie: more than two dead at a time).
- Having all the most common questions answered in-game (e.g. tooltips, videos, hints, tutorial levels, etc)
- Matching those rookies with people of equal skill (e.g. other rookies)
If you give new players the tools and opportunity to learn the game at their own pace, they'll have the most fun.
The biggest problem is the comm, as you need someone at least minimally competent to ensure the game isn't ruined. My preference is a simple comm bot, but having a method to allow non-rookies into the server (e.g. have a vetallowed.json where you can list the non-rookies allowed on your server) would be a potential stopgap.
I don't think kicking out good KDR players is a good move, especially with firstperson spectator. New players can learn from watching a good player, and that player can give advice or answer questions.
Vets shouldn't be stacking, as it's not a challenge and offers very little as a reward. The elite have no need to stack or prefer either side over the other.
I agree with the "Friendly to rookies" point, although that only goes so far. I'll let a rookie jump in com, and I'll help tell him what to place where and such, but if he stops listening it stops being a rookie problem and starts being something I will not tolerate.
Just for a clarification, if I tell you to place something, you can either do it, ask how to do it, or state that you won't do it/are doing something else first.
Now that would be a useful indicator / filter on the server list : administrated and/or admin actually in game.
I played 500 hours and the pattern is always the same: 2-3 guys that decide of the balance for all the others.
Better find another shooter if you are looking for a rookie friendly field.
I personally always join rookie friendly servers because I like helping them and the atmosphere tends to be better and more forgiving of mistakes.
The game is HARD, and the sooner Rookies realise that, the better. Imagine playing games for 4 hours that are 8 Rookies vs. 8 Rookies - you wouldn't learn the mechanics of the game, and you'd start entering non-Rookie servers and you'd still have exactly the same learning curve as if you'd joined a white server from the very first launch of your game. You need to die a lot to learn how to Marine/Skulk properly.
I think of a Rookie server as one that these pub-stompers have NO RIGHT to complain about inexperienced players, and one where it's actually preferred for Veteran players to join so they can explain how to evolve new traits, how to request ammo/meds, how to build the power before the RT, how to flap your wings to fly as a Lerk (lol) etc. The NS2 community is, for the most part, excellent, and I've seen the majority of Rookie Friendly servers (especially those clan-run as opposed to server company demo servers) doing things right.
This is an attitude that ultimately leads to a capped community that isn't going to grow or expand. Going in to games with this chip on your shoulder and treating new players like crap will end with the same handful of people playing the game and it ultimately failing. This is a product to be enjoyed by all who buy it, not a private play ground for the "elite" players only.
I'm in agreement with you Von. Players that think a game is only meant to be played with competitive players ruin games. I got the game during free-weekend. During that time I was yelled at for my "Lack of knowledge". I played several games with players that only cared about the win and discarded me from existence not even wanting to help teach me the basics.
People like you Mad, scare away future players.
Right now I am a very good commander, and know the basics pretty well. I gained that from a single guy who took the time to teach me over the course of a few games.
Please be more specific. You're making it sound like you approve vets stomping beginners on a rookie server. Which is something clearly not approved by the majority or UWE (though not enforced). On top of that, getting stomped doesn't teach you anything, a challenge does.
But I suppose you didn't mean the 50/5 kind of stomping.
What I'm saying is that competitive players or the like coming to pub games are the ones keeping it from expanding. They take all the place, make most of the kills and completely unbalance the match they are in.
Again today in exemple: one dude got a score of 55-5 and managed to save the aliens all by himself. How boring was that? The game before everybody was about of the same skill and congrulations where made at the end of the match in the lobby. Next game: peoples where angry and the server emptied itself of half it's players.
Now you tell me a way to go around that. Because I had way too many noobs during this week say "You know what fuck this shit I'll uninstall this game and do something else. I'm just getting slaughtered." Or on other words: "I'm not learning a thing and there is nothing intuitive about this game. So goodbye." How can you hope to get a larger audience when it's so easy to get that kind of reaction because a few careless players don't care about how long NS2 will last anyway?
There should be pro servers it's that simple. Rookie, casual and pro. That would be a start.