Let's not forget that the skulk does have a ranged weapon.
And Alien vision.
Ok, there's this great marine player, in that large fairly empty room.
Skulk can easily locate him from a far vent or so, even if the marine is trying to stay in the shades.
Parasite the guy...they always start acting funny. It gets him on his nerves.
Suddenly every alien in the neighbourhood can see him through walls.
And big chance he also has no idea where the parasite came from.
"I need a med pack", you'll often hear, as he runs off for some better cover XD
That's when you jump out of your hiding spot, and use the noise he makes to close the distance.
You can see if he's running away from you, or waits in ambush around the corner, because of the parasite.
Their concentration is not 100% anymore, they feel weaker.
Use this, and close the distance with jump-sneak-jump-sneaks...the marine won't hear you coming while he gets within leap-distance.
And make that 1st leap end in a full bite, 2nd leap up to anywhere, and jump down again for 2 more quick bites.
With good timing, the skulk stil has energy left to leap away for a quick retreat, and plan his final attack.
*edit - and Silence....I forgot about that awesome upgrade!
I really felt that vanilla marine vs vanilla skulk was in a good place in B239. From my point of view it felt fair if I was skulk or the marine. Now I feel too powerful as marine and too weak as skulk.
Skulks did not need a nerf to their movement, they only needed hit reg fixed. They got both, and now I see a lot of marine stacking in servers.
One positive thing it has done is made me try out lerk a lot more lately. I've been evolving one the second I get 30 Pres now.
I'm sorry but if you win a 1on1 vs any marine as a skulk they weren't a good player. Against someone with good aim, the only way to kill them is while they are distracted, or get really good positioning and some luck.
Don't get me started on shotguns, I have hated shotguns since before gorgeous, which made me hate aliens. No reason to play alien now if you enjoy the combat aspect of the game.
This is simply incorrect, I'm afraid. The point is the marine should not be able to out maneuver a skulk once both are within melee range. Yes you can compensate for this by climbing walls etc but in a wide open room this is often not possible. So what happens is two equally skilled players could meet, one marine one skulk, the skulk can ambush for the first bite, possibly land a second, but the marine can then press W + A or W + D to side step and then jump which will give him the ability to create a gap that the skulk cannot close, even if the skulk sees the side step coming in advance he cannot keep up as his acceleration rate is lower than that of the marine. So the marine creates this gap, and the skulk now must either run straight at him which is certain death, or try to move erratically which may make the marine miss but also gives him more time to aim and prepare his next evade.
I do know how the marine dodges.The skulk can close the cap after the dodge if he stays on the course to marine instead of wildly jumping around. Depending on the marines armor level he can finish up the job. In the scrims the a0 capper marines get taken down easily but a a1 capper is mostly untakeable on same skill level. Just browse out how many a0 cappers get taken down by skulk and how much more less after a1: http://www.twitch.tv/sting_reddog. You can even see that the good team's reseater skulks stop challenging the lone marines due to that disadvantage creating the cat' n mouse play over the nodes.
And this is perfectly fine as the marines should have the 1v1 skulk advantage. It worked in ns1 and created the gameplay of cappers/pushers in the matches. It would be too hard to keep the pressure up if you would have to send 2 to capper duty. No reason to change that.
The close combat is in my opinion not perfect. It's sticky and it doesn't offer plenty of different tools to play around.
For skulk the problem is affected due to slow speed of non combat celerity on ground and the marines are pretty sticky without real doublejumps or fast ad-ads; making the closecombat having only 1-2 decisions after the bite. The balance mod's faster movement seems to be the best solution for this as it's more like ns1's fluid and fast system.
So just to clarify:
Those who dislike the current mechanics want that marine to be unable to effectively dodge the skulk if the skulk is able to close that distance gap?
No, we want the Skulk to be able (at all!) to keep up with a Marine.
You can argue about how hard it should be for a Skulk to get TO a Marine.
Can you really argue that, even when the Skulk has reached the Marine, the Marine should have an advantage that the Skulk cannot negate at all?
I would disagree with that, as that would produce a very binary mechanic whereas the marine is unable to contest it's own survival based on map design.
Replace "Marine" with "Skulk", and you have given a perfect description of the current problem. "survival, based on map design" is perfect wording for this. This is what happens right now! Open spaces = no chance if the Marine is good enough.
Rounding a tight spaced corner would mean random death to marines who otherwise could have employed a well timed dodge.
We have a problem like this right now:
A Marine not standing right next to a wall (so he cannot jump dodge easily) means inevitable death for the Skulk, if the Marine is good enough to jump and aim reasonably well.
There is nothing the Skulk can do.
There is no wall to jump from.
And the Marine is physically faster than you. So it all comes down to the Marine making a mistake. There is nothing the Skulk can do if the Marine does not make a mistake.
Also: we're talking about 3 bites at least, and there are Shotguns and Armor Upgrades (and Jetpacks) later in the game!
Keep in mind, this is not a theorycraft discussion derived from unit acceleration values. This is a real thing, very noticeably happening since 240.
And before someone says "use the walls", this is equivalent to me saying "Marines shouldn't go into narrow hallways at all".
Soft counters are better,
as in "skulk has the advantage when closing the distance gap, but skillful reaction times, movement prediction, and positioning can still make the difference." Previously it felt like quick ground skulks were able to negate even the best dodging efforts.
Nobody wants the Marine to auto-lose once the Skulk has reached him.
Currently, the Skulk auto-loses even when he has reached the Marine unharmed. Even if you ambush and get the first full bite before the Marine notices you. They can just jump away and you can't keep up. THAT is the problem.
How to fix:
- NO Marine nerfs (that was never the question, but most people apparently feel it was)
- make Skulk movement/acceleration "competitive" with Marines, so it's NOT auto-lose for Skulk
- if Marines are at a disadvantage then: reduce Skulk damage (e.g. 60/40/20) and maybe reduce Skulk HP to give equal chances in a fight, based on skill
---
I understand that this issue is hard to see. With the free weekend newbies, you certainly won't have this problem. And in regular gameplay, most Marines aren't good enough too.
But it is there.
At a certain point (Marine player skill, no wall right next to the Marine), it feels like there is NOTHING a Skulk can do. This is backed up by the acceleration values being plain lower than Marine's.
Every statement of NousWanderer's post is completely right. Why can a skulk stay in Gravity Control for 10mins getting kills? Because it waits in the ceiling and jumps on you when your all the way at the RT and 2/3 of the bites are dealt before it lands on the actual ground (Only because you can cling to a marine just as you do a wall).
He is absolutely right on the marine defensive damage streaming. If I can track you well it doesn't matter that you are maneuverable or that you get varying degrees of acceleration that we memorize for every surface. If we are spinning and you are still on my screen and there is more than 3 bullets in the clip, odds are in my favor. Wall acceleration doesn't matter.
I just want walljumping to be decent again. :< So that there's actually something to do while traversing the map for the umpteenth time. Nowdays I just collide with stuff and spam space. ...and someone sticking to the floor runs past me.
That makes sense. That I can agree on that skulks need. And that is convenience.
I took note of what everyone has been saying in this thread and tried it myself. By god, OP is right. Side-jumping and circle-strafing using nothing but the A and D keys is ridiculous. Even against good players. You can hop around maybe 3-4 times before you get tired and lose speed. But 3-4 circle strafes are enough to take on one or two skulks at the same time.
The more I use it, the more I don't want to use it. Once you get a shotgun, you are an unstoppable machine.
This x 1000000000.
In all seriousness, I haven't played for the last 2-ish weeks because I really tried to get into aliens but the skulk gameplay literally gave me a headache. That is not an exaggeration, I actually consistently got a headache from the near constant and intense focus I had to give as a skulk trying to aim bites at bunny hopping killing machines and the frustration that came from the fact that a single bunny hop in the right direction for them and I'm dead, no matter how much care I spent in ambushing. I move like a brick and feel like paper. The only part of the game when skulks were enjoyable was the very beginning when bites actually did damage. Later on, forget it.
I feel guilty playing the marines because I know I'm only doing it because playing aliens is far and away less rewarding and fun. I'm afraid I won't be coming back until the community believes that skulking is effective and fun again.
People need to stop looking at this from a balance perspective, and look at it from a fun perspective instead. A lot of people are complaining that Skulk isn't fun, when it gets to late game it's even worse, if marines are winning it's down right painful. I am still seeing servers empty out after heavy alien losses (this was particularly noticeable over the free weekend), marine losses don't have the same effect.
Also: we're talking about 3 bites at least, and there are Shotguns and Armor Upgrades (and Jetpacks) later in the game!
Stock marines get stronger and stronger as the game goes on, all of their personal upgrades bar exos cost less then a Lerk, add in weapon recycling and even in a losing game they're more likely to get to use they're upgrades than aliens in a similar position.
Even if marines don't buy any personal upgrades nearly every comm will be A3/W3 by 15 minutes making every single marine more powerful. The aliens "counter" to this is higher lifeforms, but that costs pres and if the tides turn then aliens can no longer counter. Marines don't have this problem, even if you push them down to one base and they wasted all their pres they still have the passive armor/weapon upgrades so they can hold their own against the oncoming aliens. This is why you only ever see marine turtles, they're strength is not strongly tied to pres or tech points, while the alien strength is HEAVILY tied to pres and tech points.
Skulks get the brunt of all these mechanics coming together, pre 240 they were so fast and hitreg was so bad that they remained fun purely because the vast majority of marines couldn't hit a single shot on them, although even then a heavy alien loss was a lot of pain. Now most marines can successfully kill a Skulk in 20 rounds or less, so now all these issues are starting to really show their face.
Skulks need to be a viable 1v1 combat unit early game and late game no matter who's winning. The only way I can see that being possible is to decouple alien strength from tech points (or we make losing marines as miserable as losing aliens are now but then you have two sides who aren't fun late game) and to buff Skulk movement so they can keep up with marines jumping around them. The evasive ability of marines right now is easily above a Skulks, I've come out of so many 1v1 battles without even a scratch (against players around my skill level) it's silly, all you need is some space around you to strafe and jump.
If making Skulks fun all game throws balance horribly off then we can find something else to change. Personally I think exos+macs and Onos need a good looking at, both are in a strange place of being 1 player being able to pretty easily take 2,3 or even 4 other players. The Onos in particular doesn't have much of a downside, if your whole team goes Onos there's very little the marine team can do to counter it. At least with exos+macs the aliens can try to exploit their lack of speed and inability to take command.
Tldr: I think the marine skulk dance/approach is one of the most enjoyable and skilled mechanics in the game, so as long as that's preserved somewhat in that proximity isn't an instant win, adjust away.
No doubt. I just find it a bit ridiculous if a marine can move faster or jump farther than a skulk in any circumstance. Skulks should be leopards, not pugs.
A marine really can't jump more effectively than a skulk. A marine can jump and juke in one general way, and this can be anticipated and dealt with by a skulk if the skulk isn't hellbent on trying to 'catch' the marine by playing hopscotch once their wall momentum is kaput. People calling the current circumstances a "free win" for marines certainly aren't playing the game I'm playing. If skulks need anything, it's a slight bonus to walljumping.
Tldr: I think the marine skulk dance/approach is one of the most enjoyable and skilled mechanics in the game, so as long as that's preserved somewhat in that proximity isn't an instant win, adjust away.
No doubt. I just find it a bit ridiculous if a marine can move faster or jump farther than a skulk in any circumstance. Skulks should be leopards, not pugs.
While I think glissy said it best in one of these threads, the base alien life form is not fun to play. The movement is clunky, the life form feels weak, and it only gets worse as the game goes on. Carapace skulks vs base lmgs (~2:00 - 5:00 of game time) is about the only time that skulks don't feel like fodder.
And while the skulk is definitely less agile than the marine, he is still significantly faster (5 speed vs 7 speed, or ~40% faster). As a skulk, you shouldn't be getting juked for more than a bite or two and if you are then you are being greatly out played. I like having lower ground and air control as it rewards accurate biting and punishes drawn out melee battles. It also adds an element of positioning to melee combat that isn't present if skulks can just W-move and instantly respond to marine dodging. I wish the wall jumping was better.
Many of the complaints in this thread feel grossly exaggerated. One guy complained about a marine juking multiple skulks for 10 seconds. Another complains about how 1v1s are literally impossible to win as skulks. Even others complain that marines have an advantage even if the skulk is in melee combat with them. I, frankly, think these complaints are ridiculous.
I think the current problems with skulk are not a huge imbalance as claimed in this thread, but result from a lack of fun combined with a relatively low skill ceiling. Skulks feel weak, they feel sluggish, they don't scale well as well as LMGs with skill, and they don't scale as well as marines in general. Aliens can still win with teamwork and coordination, but it still feels bad for the individual.
The problem now is just that the skulk is the class with the higher skill floor now, NOT the marine, so ever since the acceleration nerf, everyone who sucked at skulk in the first place (but got carried by OP mechanics) still sucks, they just aren't being helped by physics anymore.
You mean higher skill floor? Because a lower skill floor would imply they've become easier to play. The skill floor is the entry point to playing a certain class.
Marines definitely have the lowest skill floor, with a higher skill ceiling where as it feels like skulks have a higher skill floor and a lower skill ceiling, so they're hard to get into and once you do there's not a whole lot of room for improvement. (Because of bland movement mechanics)
Anyway, I sincerely hope UWE takes note, it's absolutely disastrous that a large amount of players perceive skulk to be unenjoyable. This also goes to show that stats alone don't mean everything, yes you may have achieved 50/50 more or less but it's HOW you achieve that 50/50 that matters the most.
This also goes to show that stats alone don't mean everything, yes you may have achieved 50/50 more or less but it's HOW you achieve that 50/50 that matters the most.
I kind of want to see the win rates for all player counts. Such as 6v6 through 12v12. Not to mention which teams win in each time period and any other useful information.
I think the current problems with skulk are not a huge imbalance as claimed in this thread, but result from a lack of fun combined with a relatively low skill ceiling. Skulks feel weak, they feel sluggish, they don't scale well as well as LMGs with skill, and they don't scale as well as marines in general. Aliens can still win with teamwork and coordination, but it still feels bad for the individual.
Skulks are not suppose to scale equally with marines. The higher lifeforms scale with marines. That's why a skulk only team will eventually loose. But I do think the skulk scales just fine with a LMG. You get camo, leap, regen, all of these will make a skillful skulk player scale well against an LMG marine (assuming that skulk is not running on the floor, I said skillful).
So how do you make skulk "more fun", as the thread is loosing its steam on claiming marines are to powerful, without taking away or giving an advantage?
Skulks are not suppose to scale equally with marines. The higher lifeforms scale with marines. That's why a skulk only team will eventually loose. But I do think the skulk scales just fine with a LMG. You get camo, leap, regen, all of these will make a skillful skulk player scale well against an LMG marine (assuming that skulk is not running on the floor, I said skillful).
the only reasons skulks can even pretend to scale with lmg marines is because by the time the skulk gets all those upgrades the game is so laggy it's hard to aim
So how do you make skulk "more fun", as the thread is loosing its steam on claiming marines are to powerful, without taking away or giving an advantage?
What I'd like them to try is, uh, better walljumping I guess and maybe slightly better jumping in general.
the only reasons skulks can even pretend to scale with lmg marines is because by the time the skulk gets all those upgrades the game is so laggy it's hard to aim
I'm pretty sure these forums lag badly since that comment couldn't have been written in 2013. Hello, man from distant past! Let me welcome you to the world of tomorrow!
So how do you make skulk "more fun", as the thread is loosing its steam on claiming marines are to powerful, without taking away or giving an advantage?
First you need to acknowledge that skulks weren't OP before 340. In equally skilled match-ups it was clear that skulks didn't necessarily win more engagements early on. They COULD however put a lot more pressure due to favourable spawn conditions and their mobility, which means that the majority of match-ups were taking place on marine turf. This wouldn't be a problem at all, if only the alien economic model wasn't batshit broken and pretty much allows aliens to steamroll anyone with 4+ extractors.
The result was that marines felt, and still feel, like they have a +- 5 min timeframe to make a big move on aliens or else they will lose. The alien pressure generally results in a lower upkeep cost (less harvester replacements) which combined with a cheap t.res economy means that not only are aliens getting more harvesters, they also have to replace them less on average and thus get to tech up even faster (both in terms of t.res, where they don't have a ton of costs to make to begin with, as well as on a p.res level). The results of this are clear, aliens generally hit their midgame well before marines did and as such had no trouble dominating (full upg lerks, fades, etc)
Sure, this may be less noticeable now, because they made skulks worse for the average player, but all they did was sugarcoat the issue. Marines now have a much easier time fending off skulks early on and as such can hold more map control. But this has come at the dramatic cost of the enjoyment of a base alien lifeform and the underlying problem is still there, it's just been mitigated.
There's many ways to achieve a statistical 'balance', but that doesn't mean all of them are RIGHT.
Those who dislike the current mechanics want that marine to be unable to effectively dodge the skulk if the skulk is able to close that distance gap?
No, people (at least most of us) don't want the marine to be absolutely screwed in melee, but with the current implementation, even if a skulk has perfect reactions, with the skulk acceleration, it is impossible to close the distance with a side-strafing, jumping marine.
If a skulk reacts quickly enough to a marine who jumps away, they should be able to remain in melee range, not have to climb all over the walls and behind obstacles in order to re-engage. Skillful play should counter skillful play. If the marine jumps and the alien doesn't, the marine has the advantage. If the marine jumps and the alien does as well, the marine still has a bit of advantage while the skulk is flying at them.
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I was going to type a big long rant and then I realized it was a) dumb and flamebait-y and b) better to suggest you guys just go and play Sewlek's Balance Mod and give feedback on those movement changes as that's the likely template for anything affecting this issue that would become part of a future release build.
I was going to type a big long rant and then I realized it was a) dumb and flamebait-y and b) better to suggest you guys just go and play Sewlek's Balance Mod and give feedback on those movement changes as that's the likely template for anything affecting this issue that would become part of a future release build.
Stuff in that mod may or may not get put into the game. It's got so many changes (both good and bizarre) that it doesn't seem worthwhile to even bother with it to me as a player. Why bother coming up with something new for skulk movement when what we had before worked fine? Skulk movement mechanics were not in any way the biggest reason why aliens won more than marines. Not even close imo.
Changing things that already work is not the correct way to achieve balance, especially when those things are also fundamentals of a base unit.
I have only been playing NS2 since December. However, I too feel the skulks move a bit slow. Consider myself a pretty good skulk. As I can fairly consistently get a 3:1 or 4:1 KDR in Pub servers when using guerrilla tactics. Problem is, attack some Marines, and then try to escape. You often get chased down and killed, unless you have a nearby vent to jump in. Even if you turn a corner, the marines will be behind you before you can turn the next corner. And this remains true even if using wall-jump.
Have you ever seen a human outrun or even remotely keep up with a medium sized dog... especially off of a initial start.? I sure have not.
I don't have a problem with the Aliens at the moment, I just wish the Marines would cut funding to the breeding program between Olympic Long Jumpers and Tigger.
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edited March 2013
A) skulk movement changes may not have been the sole reason for the sway in win rates, given the optimizations and hit reg fixes, but we all know it obviously factored in within the first few minutes playing that patch. They are far more predictable and thus easier to track. this thread is about skillful movement, not scaling, as someone clarified to me. So let's continue that debate without scaling issues factoring in, and assume we're talking about early game skulk vs marine only. I doubt anyone would argue that scaling is another major issue.
That being said, I feel there's a lot of anecdotal stuff going on, which makes identifying a solution even more difficult. So what do you suggest? Increasing acceleration has it's downsides, as gorgeous mentioned.
And No one wants a nerf..
But maybe if marine strafe jumping produced *slightly* less distance, but kept it's acceleration, you can close the disadvantage gap without making things feel un fun?
I'd much rather see wall jumping made into a skillful bonus instead of air acceleration cranked up again. I feel some wiggle room for ground acceleration to promote more control if the skulk stays on the ground, but more evasiveness if the skulk leaves it (aka jumps).
Let's not forget that the skulk does have a ranged weapon.
And Alien vision.
Ok, there's this great marine player, in that large fairly empty room.
Skulk can easily locate him from a far vent or so, even if the marine is trying to stay in the shades.
Parasite the guy...they always start acting funny. It gets him on his nerves.
Suddenly every alien in the neighbourhood can see him through walls.
And big chance he also has no idea where the parasite came from.
"I need a med pack", you'll often hear, as he runs off for some better cover XD
That's when you jump out of your hiding spot, and use the noise he makes to close the distance.
You can see if he's running away from you, or waits in ambush around the corner, because of the parasite.
Their concentration is not 100% anymore, they feel weaker.
Use this, and close the distance with jump-sneak-jump-sneaks...the marine won't hear you coming while he gets within leap-distance.
And make that 1st leap end in a full bite, 2nd leap up to anywhere, and jump down again for 2 more quick bites.
With good timing, the skulk stil has energy left to leap away for a quick retreat, and plan his final attack.
*edit - and Silence....I forgot about that awesome upgrade!
I find it generally goes more like 'pop slightly out of a vent to check the room'
'The marine is constantly looking at one of the approximately three or four entrances to the room, and checks all of them regularly, he will see you within five seconds'
'Parasite him and he immediately starts to check every entrance in rapid succession because you are almost certainly in one of them'.
'If you remain to observe the marine sees you and shoots you, or you attack and he hears you and shoots you, or he runs off, you chase him, he hears the distinct noise you make apart from his footsteps, turns around, and shoots you'.
You really can't hide from marines because skulks are obvious and rooms are well lit. At best you can buy a couple of seconds time or maybe get to run behind one. Doesn't work on groups of marines or with groups of skulks, and it doesn't get you a completely unawares hit.
I think wall jumping needs to be restored as does ground acceleration. Air control I'm not so sure about, changing directions mid air was perhaps too powerful? It's hard to say when they nerf several movement aspects at once and combine it with hit reg fixes. As said in another thread, use a small mallet as the nerf bat, not a sledgehammer. Nerf fundamental mechanics one at a time so we can evaluate the consequences of each individually.
My feeling is that restoring skulk movement to the way it was in 239 whilst keeping the hit reg fixes would be perfect.
I would not like to see a nerf to marine strafe jumping or any other movement of marines. All that will do is lower the skill ceiling of marines, and will make marine less fun to play. We want more fun skulks and marines, not less.
5 seconds of being shot at? Really? Even 2 seconds seems like a lot to me unless you are charging down a long hall way? If you give the marine 5 seconds of long range shooting at you, he deserves to win in that instance.
My experience is different to yours and my complaint relates to what happens when you have already closed the distance by ambush / wall jumps.
As marine when a skulk comes flying off the ceiling at me, I usually push A or D, jump once whilst tracking the skulk in a 180 degree arc past me. (As pretty much every marine I encountered pre free weekend did, some a damn lot better than I can too) Some skulks have guessed I will do this and will still be in bite range, others will go flying past and usually die because although they have seen where the marine went and turn to follow him, the skulk is too slow and can't keep up. It's this last bit that is the problem imo.
3 seconds, 2 seconds, whatever. The point is that any skulk versus marine fight is going to open with marines shooting the skulk and the skulk not really being able to do much about it other than hope the marine is a poor shot.
If the marine spends more time shooting the skulk, the skulk is more likely to lose, if he spends less time, the skulk is more likely to win, but this ultimately means that winning/losing is heavily determined by how much time the marine has to shoot the skulk before the skulk gets close enough to deal damage. This also means that more marines = more shooting time, because you have two marines shooting for x seconds, meaning the total amount of shooting time is 2(x seconds).
Skulks conversely don't scale as well together, because no amount of extra skulks makes them get close to marines any faster. And more skulks actually means more surface area to get shot. More marines don't make it easier for skulks to hit their targets, it just means they have more people they have to kill.
So 1 marine vs 1 skulk may be balanced from say, 15 meters away. From 10 meters perhaps the skulk gets the advantage, but that's about the only circumstance.
At longer ranges (and there are a LOT more long ranges than there are short ones in this game) the skulk is at a disadvantage, and in groups, even matched groups, the marines slowly but steadily gain more advantage because of how their weapons work. 2 marines are stronger than 2 skulks, if 1 skulk vs 1 marine is balanced.
Basically, compared to marines, skulks are bad at fighting in anything other than close range. Also, to get to their optimum fighting range, skulks have to try quite hard. Whereas marines, well, their targets start out far away from them, and get closer the more the marines let them. All a marine has to do to be at his optimum fighting range is stand still in a big room, or down a long corridor. The skulks have to move across that space to get to the marine, there's simply no two ways about it. They have to fight on the marine's terms and the marine's ideal fighting ground in order to have a chance to get to their ONLY fighting ground; melee range.
Comments
And Alien vision.
Ok, there's this great marine player, in that large fairly empty room.
Skulk can easily locate him from a far vent or so, even if the marine is trying to stay in the shades.
Parasite the guy...they always start acting funny. It gets him on his nerves.
Suddenly every alien in the neighbourhood can see him through walls.
And big chance he also has no idea where the parasite came from.
"I need a med pack", you'll often hear, as he runs off for some better cover XD
That's when you jump out of your hiding spot, and use the noise he makes to close the distance.
You can see if he's running away from you, or waits in ambush around the corner, because of the parasite.
Their concentration is not 100% anymore, they feel weaker.
Use this, and close the distance with jump-sneak-jump-sneaks...the marine won't hear you coming while he gets within leap-distance.
And make that 1st leap end in a full bite, 2nd leap up to anywhere, and jump down again for 2 more quick bites.
With good timing, the skulk stil has energy left to leap away for a quick retreat, and plan his final attack.
*edit - and Silence....I forgot about that awesome upgrade!
Skulks did not need a nerf to their movement, they only needed hit reg fixed. They got both, and now I see a lot of marine stacking in servers.
One positive thing it has done is made me try out lerk a lot more lately. I've been evolving one the second I get 30 Pres now.
Don't get me started on shotguns, I have hated shotguns since before gorgeous, which made me hate aliens. No reason to play alien now if you enjoy the combat aspect of the game.
Lol lerks, hahaha.
And this is perfectly fine as the marines should have the 1v1 skulk advantage. It worked in ns1 and created the gameplay of cappers/pushers in the matches. It would be too hard to keep the pressure up if you would have to send 2 to capper duty. No reason to change that.
The close combat is in my opinion not perfect. It's sticky and it doesn't offer plenty of different tools to play around.
For skulk the problem is affected due to slow speed of non combat celerity on ground and the marines are pretty sticky without real doublejumps or fast ad-ads; making the closecombat having only 1-2 decisions after the bite. The balance mod's faster movement seems to be the best solution for this as it's more like ns1's fluid and fast system.
You can argue about how hard it should be for a Skulk to get TO a Marine.
Can you really argue that, even when the Skulk has reached the Marine, the Marine should have an advantage that the Skulk cannot negate at all?
Replace "Marine" with "Skulk", and you have given a perfect description of the current problem. "survival, based on map design" is perfect wording for this. This is what happens right now! Open spaces = no chance if the Marine is good enough. We have a problem like this right now:
A Marine not standing right next to a wall (so he cannot jump dodge easily) means inevitable death for the Skulk, if the Marine is good enough to jump and aim reasonably well.
There is nothing the Skulk can do.
There is no wall to jump from.
And the Marine is physically faster than you.
So it all comes down to the Marine making a mistake.
There is nothing the Skulk can do if the Marine does not make a mistake.
Also: we're talking about 3 bites at least, and there are Shotguns and Armor Upgrades (and Jetpacks) later in the game!
Keep in mind, this is not a theorycraft discussion derived from unit acceleration values. This is a real thing, very noticeably happening since 240.
And before someone says "use the walls", this is equivalent to me saying "Marines shouldn't go into narrow hallways at all".
Nobody wants the Marine to auto-lose once the Skulk has reached him.
Currently, the Skulk auto-loses even when he has reached the Marine unharmed. Even if you ambush and get the first full bite before the Marine notices you. They can just jump away and you can't keep up. THAT is the problem.
How to fix:
- NO Marine nerfs (that was never the question, but most people apparently feel it was)
- make Skulk movement/acceleration "competitive" with Marines, so it's NOT auto-lose for Skulk
- if Marines are at a disadvantage then: reduce Skulk damage (e.g. 60/40/20) and maybe reduce Skulk HP to give equal chances in a fight, based on skill
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I understand that this issue is hard to see. With the free weekend newbies, you certainly won't have this problem. And in regular gameplay, most Marines aren't good enough too.
But it is there.
At a certain point (Marine player skill, no wall right next to the Marine), it feels like there is NOTHING a Skulk can do. This is backed up by the acceleration values being plain lower than Marine's.
He is absolutely right on the marine defensive damage streaming. If I can track you well it doesn't matter that you are maneuverable or that you get varying degrees of acceleration that we memorize for every surface. If we are spinning and you are still on my screen and there is more than 3 bullets in the clip, odds are in my favor. Wall acceleration doesn't matter.
Only viable response was
That makes sense. That I can agree on that skulks need. And that is convenience.
This x 1000000000.
In all seriousness, I haven't played for the last 2-ish weeks because I really tried to get into aliens but the skulk gameplay literally gave me a headache. That is not an exaggeration, I actually consistently got a headache from the near constant and intense focus I had to give as a skulk trying to aim bites at bunny hopping killing machines and the frustration that came from the fact that a single bunny hop in the right direction for them and I'm dead, no matter how much care I spent in ambushing. I move like a brick and feel like paper. The only part of the game when skulks were enjoyable was the very beginning when bites actually did damage. Later on, forget it.
I feel guilty playing the marines because I know I'm only doing it because playing aliens is far and away less rewarding and fun. I'm afraid I won't be coming back until the community believes that skulking is effective and fun again.
Stock marines get stronger and stronger as the game goes on, all of their personal upgrades bar exos cost less then a Lerk, add in weapon recycling and even in a losing game they're more likely to get to use they're upgrades than aliens in a similar position.
Even if marines don't buy any personal upgrades nearly every comm will be A3/W3 by 15 minutes making every single marine more powerful. The aliens "counter" to this is higher lifeforms, but that costs pres and if the tides turn then aliens can no longer counter. Marines don't have this problem, even if you push them down to one base and they wasted all their pres they still have the passive armor/weapon upgrades so they can hold their own against the oncoming aliens. This is why you only ever see marine turtles, they're strength is not strongly tied to pres or tech points, while the alien strength is HEAVILY tied to pres and tech points.
Skulks get the brunt of all these mechanics coming together, pre 240 they were so fast and hitreg was so bad that they remained fun purely because the vast majority of marines couldn't hit a single shot on them, although even then a heavy alien loss was a lot of pain. Now most marines can successfully kill a Skulk in 20 rounds or less, so now all these issues are starting to really show their face.
Skulks need to be a viable 1v1 combat unit early game and late game no matter who's winning. The only way I can see that being possible is to decouple alien strength from tech points (or we make losing marines as miserable as losing aliens are now but then you have two sides who aren't fun late game) and to buff Skulk movement so they can keep up with marines jumping around them. The evasive ability of marines right now is easily above a Skulks, I've come out of so many 1v1 battles without even a scratch (against players around my skill level) it's silly, all you need is some space around you to strafe and jump.
If making Skulks fun all game throws balance horribly off then we can find something else to change. Personally I think exos+macs and Onos need a good looking at, both are in a strange place of being 1 player being able to pretty easily take 2,3 or even 4 other players. The Onos in particular doesn't have much of a downside, if your whole team goes Onos there's very little the marine team can do to counter it. At least with exos+macs the aliens can try to exploit their lack of speed and inability to take command.
No doubt. I just find it a bit ridiculous if a marine can move faster or jump farther than a skulk in any circumstance. Skulks should be leopards, not pugs.
While I think glissy said it best in one of these threads, the base alien life form is not fun to play. The movement is clunky, the life form feels weak, and it only gets worse as the game goes on. Carapace skulks vs base lmgs (~2:00 - 5:00 of game time) is about the only time that skulks don't feel like fodder.
And while the skulk is definitely less agile than the marine, he is still significantly faster (5 speed vs 7 speed, or ~40% faster). As a skulk, you shouldn't be getting juked for more than a bite or two and if you are then you are being greatly out played. I like having lower ground and air control as it rewards accurate biting and punishes drawn out melee battles. It also adds an element of positioning to melee combat that isn't present if skulks can just W-move and instantly respond to marine dodging. I wish the wall jumping was better.
Many of the complaints in this thread feel grossly exaggerated. One guy complained about a marine juking multiple skulks for 10 seconds. Another complains about how 1v1s are literally impossible to win as skulks. Even others complain that marines have an advantage even if the skulk is in melee combat with them. I, frankly, think these complaints are ridiculous.
I think the current problems with skulk are not a huge imbalance as claimed in this thread, but result from a lack of fun combined with a relatively low skill ceiling. Skulks feel weak, they feel sluggish, they don't scale well as well as LMGs with skill, and they don't scale as well as marines in general. Aliens can still win with teamwork and coordination, but it still feels bad for the individual.
Marines definitely have the lowest skill floor, with a higher skill ceiling where as it feels like skulks have a higher skill floor and a lower skill ceiling, so they're hard to get into and once you do there's not a whole lot of room for improvement. (Because of bland movement mechanics)
Anyway, I sincerely hope UWE takes note, it's absolutely disastrous that a large amount of players perceive skulk to be unenjoyable. This also goes to show that stats alone don't mean everything, yes you may have achieved 50/50 more or less but it's HOW you achieve that 50/50 that matters the most.
I kind of want to see the win rates for all player counts. Such as 6v6 through 12v12. Not to mention which teams win in each time period and any other useful information.
Skulks are not suppose to scale equally with marines. The higher lifeforms scale with marines. That's why a skulk only team will eventually loose. But I do think the skulk scales just fine with a LMG. You get camo, leap, regen, all of these will make a skillful skulk player scale well against an LMG marine (assuming that skulk is not running on the floor, I said skillful).
So how do you make skulk "more fun", as the thread is loosing its steam on claiming marines are to powerful, without taking away or giving an advantage?
the only reasons skulks can even pretend to scale with lmg marines is because by the time the skulk gets all those upgrades the game is so laggy it's hard to aim
What I'd like them to try is, uh, better walljumping I guess and maybe slightly better jumping in general.
I'm pretty sure these forums lag badly since that comment couldn't have been written in 2013. Hello, man from distant past! Let me welcome you to the world of tomorrow!
First you need to acknowledge that skulks weren't OP before 340. In equally skilled match-ups it was clear that skulks didn't necessarily win more engagements early on. They COULD however put a lot more pressure due to favourable spawn conditions and their mobility, which means that the majority of match-ups were taking place on marine turf. This wouldn't be a problem at all, if only the alien economic model wasn't batshit broken and pretty much allows aliens to steamroll anyone with 4+ extractors.
The result was that marines felt, and still feel, like they have a +- 5 min timeframe to make a big move on aliens or else they will lose. The alien pressure generally results in a lower upkeep cost (less harvester replacements) which combined with a cheap t.res economy means that not only are aliens getting more harvesters, they also have to replace them less on average and thus get to tech up even faster (both in terms of t.res, where they don't have a ton of costs to make to begin with, as well as on a p.res level). The results of this are clear, aliens generally hit their midgame well before marines did and as such had no trouble dominating (full upg lerks, fades, etc)
Sure, this may be less noticeable now, because they made skulks worse for the average player, but all they did was sugarcoat the issue. Marines now have a much easier time fending off skulks early on and as such can hold more map control. But this has come at the dramatic cost of the enjoyment of a base alien lifeform and the underlying problem is still there, it's just been mitigated.
There's many ways to achieve a statistical 'balance', but that doesn't mean all of them are RIGHT.
No, people (at least most of us) don't want the marine to be absolutely screwed in melee, but with the current implementation, even if a skulk has perfect reactions, with the skulk acceleration, it is impossible to close the distance with a side-strafing, jumping marine.
If a skulk reacts quickly enough to a marine who jumps away, they should be able to remain in melee range, not have to climb all over the walls and behind obstacles in order to re-engage. Skillful play should counter skillful play. If the marine jumps and the alien doesn't, the marine has the advantage. If the marine jumps and the alien does as well, the marine still has a bit of advantage while the skulk is flying at them.
Stuff in that mod may or may not get put into the game. It's got so many changes (both good and bizarre) that it doesn't seem worthwhile to even bother with it to me as a player. Why bother coming up with something new for skulk movement when what we had before worked fine? Skulk movement mechanics were not in any way the biggest reason why aliens won more than marines. Not even close imo.
Changing things that already work is not the correct way to achieve balance, especially when those things are also fundamentals of a base unit.
Given that, I'd like to hear the rant.
Have you ever seen a human outrun or even remotely keep up with a medium sized dog... especially off of a initial start.? I sure have not.
Which one of these would best even the Marine-Skulk situation out?
That being said, I feel there's a lot of anecdotal stuff going on, which makes identifying a solution even more difficult. So what do you suggest? Increasing acceleration has it's downsides, as gorgeous mentioned.
And No one wants a nerf..
But maybe if marine strafe jumping produced *slightly* less distance, but kept it's acceleration, you can close the disadvantage gap without making things feel un fun?
I find it generally goes more like 'pop slightly out of a vent to check the room'
'The marine is constantly looking at one of the approximately three or four entrances to the room, and checks all of them regularly, he will see you within five seconds'
'Parasite him and he immediately starts to check every entrance in rapid succession because you are almost certainly in one of them'.
'If you remain to observe the marine sees you and shoots you, or you attack and he hears you and shoots you, or he runs off, you chase him, he hears the distinct noise you make apart from his footsteps, turns around, and shoots you'.
You really can't hide from marines because skulks are obvious and rooms are well lit. At best you can buy a couple of seconds time or maybe get to run behind one. Doesn't work on groups of marines or with groups of skulks, and it doesn't get you a completely unawares hit.
My feeling is that restoring skulk movement to the way it was in 239 whilst keeping the hit reg fixes would be perfect.
I would not like to see a nerf to marine strafe jumping or any other movement of marines. All that will do is lower the skill ceiling of marines, and will make marine less fun to play. We want more fun skulks and marines, not less.
3 seconds, 2 seconds, whatever. The point is that any skulk versus marine fight is going to open with marines shooting the skulk and the skulk not really being able to do much about it other than hope the marine is a poor shot.
If the marine spends more time shooting the skulk, the skulk is more likely to lose, if he spends less time, the skulk is more likely to win, but this ultimately means that winning/losing is heavily determined by how much time the marine has to shoot the skulk before the skulk gets close enough to deal damage. This also means that more marines = more shooting time, because you have two marines shooting for x seconds, meaning the total amount of shooting time is 2(x seconds).
Skulks conversely don't scale as well together, because no amount of extra skulks makes them get close to marines any faster. And more skulks actually means more surface area to get shot. More marines don't make it easier for skulks to hit their targets, it just means they have more people they have to kill.
So 1 marine vs 1 skulk may be balanced from say, 15 meters away. From 10 meters perhaps the skulk gets the advantage, but that's about the only circumstance.
At longer ranges (and there are a LOT more long ranges than there are short ones in this game) the skulk is at a disadvantage, and in groups, even matched groups, the marines slowly but steadily gain more advantage because of how their weapons work. 2 marines are stronger than 2 skulks, if 1 skulk vs 1 marine is balanced.
Basically, compared to marines, skulks are bad at fighting in anything other than close range. Also, to get to their optimum fighting range, skulks have to try quite hard. Whereas marines, well, their targets start out far away from them, and get closer the more the marines let them. All a marine has to do to be at his optimum fighting range is stand still in a big room, or down a long corridor. The skulks have to move across that space to get to the marine, there's simply no two ways about it. They have to fight on the marine's terms and the marine's ideal fighting ground in order to have a chance to get to their ONLY fighting ground; melee range.