<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> BaShildy, thank you. Wont you guys listen to him, hes an admin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh my god, he is an admin??? Well then he has to be true, hasen't he?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You guys keep saying that by the time aliens have two hives, marines have HMGS and HA. NOT TRUE.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
TRUE INDEED :o). ip 22 + armory 25 + adv armory 35. That is 82 rp, marines start with around 100 rp so you can get hmg right at start of game. So lets assume you have 0 rp after having hmg (you will have more since you get more rp than 82 but just to make things easier). The gorge trying to set up 2nd hive has 0 as well at start (in fact he has -3, 10 starting rp and needs 13 to evolve to gorge). Now you need another 120 rp for ha while the gorge needs 80 rp. But since the gorge has to share with all other aliens till they cap out (and they only cap out after 23*# of aliens if they do not use any resources at all) you will have no problem having ha before they have 2nd hive up (well, maybe if you play a 1vs1 game :o).
i dont think the aliens are to good, but i think the marines are just to crappy, i like marines, but they have an unfair advantage of relying on the commander, who has to spread attention everywhere, while a gorg just has to worry about whats around him. marines do not have the movement advantages of skulks, onos and lerks, (they cannot fly, then cant go up random walls, and they cant trample, which is good for them, it would bug me if they could, well, maybe gorgs, just kick them and hurt them a lot, but i think its ok as is). if a building must be built, the commander must place it, then the marines must build it, while the aliens on the other hand, gorgs just sit there, wait for minerals while hiding with maybe a skulk or two, then just jump and place the building, and if they die, i think alien buildings build themselves, even faster with defence chambers if im not mistaken.
Beetlejuice said that aliens have a lack of minerals, while minerals are shared, its not my fault that alien players go after hives before the resource towers, which would probably help them get the hives faster. im not sure what aliens do, but it sounds like the aliens try for hives first, which is probably not the best idea
I never said that it would be best idea to build up 1 hive before building any resource towers or any defense. I just showed up the most direct way for both parties to get fades/ha&hmg. And if you say that getting a few res chambers first will help get a hive up earlier, i completely agree with you... but guess what, it also works for marines, if they get some noozles they get ha/hmg earlier too. Aliens are not the only ones who can take resource noozles.
And about building. ANY marine can build a marine structure, the only limitation is that the commander has droped it before. So unless your commander completely sucks and is not even able to click once on the structure and then on the place he wants them to build this is not much of a limitation. While aliens first have to go gorge (spending 13 rp), most of the time wait for resources since they have individual rp and are easy prey while building (because a building gorge is much easier to kill as a building ha&hmg marine). It all has its ups and downs. Aliens are more individual, marines have more tools to effectively organize teamplay (once you played with a good commander you know what i mean).
yes, marines do take resource nozzles, but, the marines cant spend, only the commander can, if an alien gets enough, then he can build whatever he pleases wherever he pleases (well, almost). also, i find the most unfair advantage for the aliens is the ability to heal anywhere, a gorg is probably one of the strongest alien units if you think about it, building defence chambers can heal everything, heal spray works the same, offence chambers can be a bit painful, especially with five of them and five defence chambers. the marines may get turrets, but they cant heal themselves, nor can they really spend that many points, and the commander chair is not really good enough for most players to manage a small team properly, let alone a larger team. if they fix the command chair, then they will fix a lot of balances between the aliens and the marines.
The reason for the big server / small server "difference" is that for Marines, they need lots of buildings that don't help ANY SPECIFIC MARINE. The Arms Lab, the Observatory, the Armoury, the Infantry Portal... The function of all these buildings is duplicated by Alien Hives. New weapons, Hivesight, and spawning all come from Hives. Ammo is automatically regenerated.
Because of this, Marines require much more RP to function...and so on a larger server where the Marines get a much larger "team pool" of resources...they can afford to be upgraded and get Heavy Armour, Heavy Machine Guns and the like...whereas the Aliens are still getting those same resources; but still divvied up amongst each player, thereby giving each individual player no real bonus to their resources while the Marines are rolling in team-shared resources.
Basically...on a small server Aliens can get a second Hive and have one Fade with Carapace and Adrenaline completely DESTROY the Marines while the Marines are still frantically trying to afford to pump some upgrades out of their Arms Lab.
This is just a flaw of the resource model... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Catgirl summed it up best, so I´ll shut up:
QUOTE Catgirl Posted: Dec 30 2002, 11:47 PM
The reason for the big server / small server "difference" is that for Marines, they need lots of buildings that don't help ANY SPECIFIC MARINE. The Arms Lab, the Observatory, the Armoury, the Infantry Portal... The function of all these buildings is duplicated by Alien Hives. New weapons, Hivesight, and spawning all come from Hives. Ammo is automatically regenerated.
Because of this, Marines require much more RP to function...and so on a larger server where the Marines get a much larger "team pool" of resources...they can afford to be upgraded and get Heavy Armour, Heavy Machine Guns and the like...whereas the Aliens are still getting those same resources; but still divvied up amongst each player, thereby giving each individual player no real bonus to their resources while the Marines are rolling in team-shared resources.
Basically...on a small server Aliens can get a second Hive and have one Fade with Carapace and Adrenaline completely DESTROY the Marines while the Marines are still frantically trying to afford to pump some upgrades out of their Arms Lab.
Yep, this is the problem. Forget balancing fades etc, get this sorted out.
If u think aliens win all the time, try and find a big server. If u think its marines who rule, play a few games on a small server. Ull see the difference.
This is why people are comming here saying, ohhh, Aliens always win !
And then u get the other lot saying its the other way round......
I musta stirred up the bees nest. Midgame balance would really be appreciated. When it comes to skill it all depends on what players are on. The [DoGS] Server has gone from 1-2 minute matches to 4 hours depending on the skill. We shouldn't be basing our discussion on skill, more or lessly the balance of the teams in general. I love games that last 1-4 hours. Games that last only 30 minutes are teh sux0r. Skill does play a fair role in the game, but how the teams our balanced is a biggie.
A fully upgraded fade SHOULD be able to mow through LMG/LA marines like a hot knife through butter just as a HMG/HA marine SHOULD be able to mow through skulks like a hot knife through butter.
The main reason people complain so much about fades is that few commanders are able to get the appropreate upgrades in time because they focus in the wrong directions. Let's break down the resources. For the sake of argument I'm going to give the Fade full caraprice and Adrenaline
18 whole Rp more to get your first HA/HMG out the door than your first fade
Why doesn't this situation come up more often?
Many commanders spend 25 + 19 + 19 on initial base turrets, imho a waste (how often do you see the aliens spend thier initial resources on base turrets?)
A single skulk will generally make short work of any undefended marine RT, whereas the average marine cannot take out an alien RT in most cases as the aliens will be alerted and arrive.
Solution?: Take a line of RTs to a hive and patrol them: have your marines run patrols (IE from Cargo Storage and back to base, covering 3-4 rts on Ns_nothing)
Whoop gotta get to LoTR, will continue this post later!
<!--QuoteBegin--Jaml+Dec 30 2002, 01:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jaml @ Dec 30 2002, 01:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You wont make it. 1.) You die with 2 acid rockets and the damage you did in that time is healed by the def chamber nearby. The same goes for your mate that rushed with you bc of splash damage. 2.) Most of the time there is more than 1 fade meaning while 1 regenerates/retreats the other keeps incoming marines at bay 3.) If there is a lerk casting umbra you will suffer the pain of the 1000 useless deaths. 4.) A gorge webbing/offence towering is the final chapter in the great book of alien assault tactics.
Summary: Aliens and their buildings regenerate marines not so in the long run marines nearly always loose. The comm cannot babysit every single group of marines dropping health packs and welders, he has attacks to fend of, build stuff, research, give orders, keep nozzles alive equipp people.. you get the idea. And a HA guy is worth **obscenity** if hes webbed.(And if he weldes the fade rocket him)
Most deadly combination ingame : FADE/GORG combo. I do it alot so if you are on a 1.04 sever watch out. The gorg webbing, healing the nearby fades and putting OC in your base is me <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Die with 2 acid rockets? You must be talking about LA. Just remeber something: an LA LMG marine costs 0rp, takes 3 seconds to spawn and can get to the battle instantly if there is a phase gate. He is worth jack****.
A Fade, on the other hand, costs 44rp, takes much longer to spawn in and longer still to evolve.
An HA HMG marine costs the same as an upgraded Fade and can kill him in less than a clip, while the Fade has to recharge adrenaline at least once unless he fancies trying to get in with the claws. And lets not forget the marine takes much less time to create.
Conclusion: acid rocket has a purpose. In a firefight a fade won't stand a chance against an accurate marine of equivalent cost. It is good for taking out turret farms, but not much else on the alien side is, and if there is a marine amongst the turret farm the fade is screwed.
Ok, so a fade goes back and recharges: PURSUE IT. A fade cannot take on 3 'free' LA LMG marines at a medium range if they are spaced out, or even one HA HMG marine: I've tried and been beaten, and I'm no n00b. Fades are good very close and at a medium-long range, but at an ordinary range they will be outgunned.
If the fades outnumber the marines at the location, it means the marines outnumber the aliens somewhere else. Remember also that not every alien is a fade: the alien gorge can only really build and not fight, while any marine can build and fight.
Fades are meant to be an elite unit, much like an HA HMG marine. You might say Onos is the elite unit, but it is not a good all-round fighter: it is immobile and has no ranged attack: useless versus jetpacks. The Onos is available when the aliens have 3 hives, and I'm sure most will agree that when the aliens have secured 3 hives the game is already won. The Onos is designed as a finishing unit, the unit to finally crush the marines camping in their turret farm once the game has been won. Fades are the alien elite all-round fighter unit, Onos are useful simply for the final assault.
Well if you've bothered to read all of this and disagree with any of the points, please let me know.
I do agree that it is too hard for the commander to drop medpacks everywhere, and I believe there should be a healing building that works like an armoury or something, but that's irrelevant here.
Otherwise, stop saying the fades are too powerful - I've played with them and died - and enjoy the game.
Fades are too powerful in one area...small servers. Marines just simply can't AFFORD to be able to combat Fades with the small resources they get, with Fades coming so quickly and readily.
This isn't a flaw with the Fades, mind you. Just the resource model.
Basically...the res curve needs to be levelled off somewhere greater than 6 players per team and under 10 players per team for the Marines. Too few players and they have nowhere near the resources they need, but too many players and they can drop 2 HMGs every time a Marine dies and not even feel the ding.
Aliens...well...they basically "always" work...look at a one-Gorge Alien team of 4 players and one of 10 players and you'll see it basically takes the exact same amount of time to get the second Hive up no matter what, if Marines don't interfere.
About pursuing fades, if you chase them, they almost always turn their backs and run away. I find this curious, because I'm a nothing-LA-LMG marine with about 20 hp left after being blasted to hell by Acid rockets, and they're a big bad fade. I guess it must be psychological <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I don't really have many comments on alien-marine balance. I haven't had any match experience (and that's where the reality of a team game comes through), and in pubs you can't really determine the balance of the teams; you usually only see how poorly players can work together. Coordinated marines are death. I play aliens a lot (just starting to play more marines), and the worst thing in the world is a commander that knows what he's doing, and marines that will do what the commander tells them to. After playing several games of being pushed back step by bloody step by suicide LA-LMG'ers and HA-grenadiers all I can say is that aliens <i>usually</i> win pubs because coordination is not <b>as</b> important as it is for the marines. If you have a few bad team players on the aliens, the team can still do alright with a few outstanding loners. Marines, on the other hand, get screwed by each loner who runs out and dies.
<!--QuoteBegin--Beetlejuice+Dec 31 2002, 04:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Beetlejuice @ Dec 31 2002, 04:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> BaShildy, thank you. Wont you guys listen to him, hes an admin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh my god, he is an admin??? Well then he has to be true, hasen't he? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good thing I didn't mention being a FPS developer :/
Anyways, we know the marines have a large advantage in large games, and the aliens have a large advantage in small games. What we are asking is to address the mid-game marine strength in mid-sized games (14-18).
The point about marines being more expensive due to the "tactically useless" buildings has a very good point. The alien upgrades are quick and to the point. 3D + 3M = Mass 0wnage. For the marines its..
IPx2 Armory->Advanced->Equipping Observatory->Motion Tracking Arms Lab->Level1x2->Level2x2->Level3x3 Prototype Lab->Jetpack->HA + actual equipping Welders dropped spratically to heal structures and armor
Total cost: 1 bajillion dollars
To help the marine mid-game do you guys think lowering sentry turret and shotgun costs. Those are effective early-game, but can't be used due to their high prices, and most money going to upgrades. But if the shotgun was 12-15 I'd be more inclined to have one with each marine group.
I usually play on 16-18 player servers. Aliens always win unless teams are uneven and marines have more people. The inevitable instant aliens get fade, the game just goes downhill.
As soon as aliens get up their second hive, I begin to spam "Rush Fades! Rush Fades! Rush Fades". But it usually ends up with me charging alone into a fade, and dying after having shot 60 bullets at him (lmg+pistol), fade probably at 50 hp or less. The rest of my team will wait for me at our resportals, crawling into small crevices and saying: don't tell them I'm in here."
So lesson: Fades should be rushed at. They should not be allowed to regenerate OR get their adrenaline level back up. Just rush ->die->respawn->rush->kill
This is not Counterstrike. You won't have to wait till the end the roumd to spawn back. You're meaningless. YOU ARE ROBERT PAULSEN. Die for the team...
That successfully holding two hives leads to winning the game since 1.03 is known among any observative Natural Selection player. That a server admin took the time to let us know that he's noticed this trend and it's disturbing him should more or less confirm it. That is NOT a debate - either you marines rush and hold two hives or it's game over (unless you use siege or jetpacks to cheaply take out a hive or two, but that's another balance issue we've been arguing back and forth about).
What happened? My theory is this. 1.01, fades are weak. 1.02, fades are buffed to match balance. 1.03, AOE damage bugs being fixxed suddenly vastly increase potency of fade acid rocket, but the Fade buffs remained. Oops!
Now, I've been going back and forth over assorted Natural Selection Boards for weeks on this. If you care to get caught up on the current state of the matter, feel free to read:
From my excessive whining and counterwhining on the subject, I've determined that here's what basically needs to happen:
1) Fades need to be nerfed down to "mid-game" firepower instead of "end-game" firepower.
2) Umbra may or may not need to be nerfed down to less potency. It's another Hive 2 ability that is a major game swayer. Perhaps if it blocked 6 out of 10 bullets instead of 8 out of 10.
3) Aliens with two hives need to retain a means to clear out a marine hold on their third hive.
4) Marines need to have a better means to hold their resources so that they can "tech up" in order to counter fades.
I've come up with a few solutions along these lines. I'm not saying that these are the end all best solutions. Nor am I suggesting that I do not have full confidence in the Natural Selection team's abilities to come up with their own solutions. However, here's a few examples of what I've come up with.
My first suggestion was to nerf Fade Acid Rocket's damage against infantry, as that is where their real overpower influence is, nasty AOE heavy damaging acid rockets. I was thinking halving their damage against marines while keeping the same damage against structures (because they still need a means to clear out hives). In practice, this should mean a Fade has to land twice the acid rockets to down a marine or resort to their claws. However, I suggested this over on Planet Natural Selection and it had an <a href='http://www.planetns.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=225' target='_blank'>unfavorable impact</a>.
That brings us to my next suggestion. One of the lead reasons two hives lands an alien victory is the sheer versitility of the weapons two hives brings. The marines, on the other hand, have nothing but direct fire weaponry with the exception of the (very expencive) Grenade Launcher and (mostly useless) mines, and a few other weapons they'll never get close enough to use. Okay, so what we're looking at is basically marines need a way to counter the fade's nasty acid rocket attacks, the lerk's umbra, and the gorge's webbing. If only there was such a thing as a weapon with the area of effect fade acid rockets possess that was impervious to Lerk's umbra and capable of removing gorge webbing. Like, oh, I don't know, a <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=17710' target='_blank'>hand grenade</a>? No, not the grenade launcher. A cheaper, more available, less potent, hand tossed, hand grenade. Possibly spawning on the marine after research is done. Possibly restricted in other ways (say replenishable only by death), appearing in slot 4. Trust me, I wouldn't suggest it if it didn't fit so well.
First two suggestions not to your liking? Well, I could be mean and call you uninformed or I could offer you suggestion number three:
Suggestion number three is mere economy adjustment. Games under 20 players have an alien advantage. Games over 20 players have a marine advantage. Why is that? Resource income and how it works. Servers with higher population give the commander more income, which means more marine research he can do and more uber nasty weapons he can drop. Sure Fades are nasty, but when the marines have a bit better gear at their disposal they can counter them that much better. The idea: Bonus resources for marines for servers under 20 players, and a penalty to marines for servers over 20 players.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Much of the problems for marines on public servers is due to less than stellar performance from the commanders. Good commanders usually have a ratio of 75-95% wins, depending on the server team size.
What I find is that on pub servers, the marines lose the game rather than the aliens winning it, usually. Sucky aliens wins over sucky marines.
Still, it is true that marines on smaller servers have a really hard time building up to the tech level they need to have a chance. Take a look at this <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=18081' target='_blank'>this article </a> and its accompanying spreadsheet for the hard numbers and a suggestion how to modify the resource system - which incidentially is pretty much like your #3 suggestion (though I think the balance point is more towards 6v6 game rather than 10v10 games - guess it depends on how many times you have played with/against good marine commanders).
2nd hive + 3 def chambers + 3 movement chambers = 80 + (14*3) + (14*3) = 164.1 Fade would be 208 res then.Then on a standard 8 player server,assuming 1 gorg, 208 + (6*44) = 472.Of course we all know that the alien resource system is different in a unique way,and i THINK the RTs give more res to the aliens to compensate for the dividing among the teams.I remember with 4 RTs 1 gorg + 7 normal aliens,the 7 normal aliens were getting 1 res per tick and the gorg was getting 5-7 res per tick....do the maths....it definately CANT be the same as the marines.
For an 8 player server,that means 7 marines,excluding the commander.
240 + (60*6)= 600 res for hmg/ha/welder for the WHOLE TEAM.
You may argue that,with welders,etc,blah blah blah ha/hmg/welder marines own fades blah blah blah and i can argue that it is not true,since fades can own ha/hmg/welder marines with hit and run attacks,which actually i killed 5 ha/hmg/welder marines that were pursuing me with acidrocket hit and runs,everytime i heard that welder sound,popped out and shot.Eventually they died.
Pfft.Ha/Hmg marines need no time?I suppose the research time is thrown and armory upgrade time is thrown completely out of the window?
If they get fades before you get ha/hmg you = dead.
If they get ha/hmg before you get fades you = dead.
Only 2 choices?BS.
Btw choice 2 NEVER happens unless you secure 2 hives as it takes so little time to get a hive up.
Marines need something that would make them the EQUAL of fades,that they can get within 10 minutes,which is the usual time the fades appear unless you secure 2 hives.Ha/HMG needs more than 10 minutes and is not the EQUAL of fades but the BETTER.
I think currently fades are a little overpowering. Usually by the time I can see them I've already taking damage from splash damage. Basically, when I know I'm going up against a fade I don't even bother going to get ammo because I usually die before going through one clip, maybe two. And I always run out to meet them, with little regard to my dying. I've found that it maybe takes ten respawns to take down a fade with no help. And by that time half the base I've been trying to protect is gone because of splash damage.
One problem I think is that everyone forgets shotguns. They're great. So much damage in so little time, especially against something as big as a fade. Unfortunately the commander always tries to plow towards HMG while forgetting the great shotty.
And I think a handgrenade would be great. I can't count the number of times I've thought "I wish I had a grenade right now. Just one."
Sorry that I'm a little all over the place, but I do think that there still needs some tweaking to give the marines a better chance against the fades.
Fades splash radius and damage is little overpowered. But it is changed in 1.04. The only problem I see are stupid marines. As soon as fades are attacking the marine base they are running around like chickens, camping the armory and few marines try to leave the base but they meet the big bad fade and die. Same thing goes for me. I try to attack one hive but nobody follows me. I meet the fade and shoot it than I die. Respawn. Fade dies, next fade kills me. Two marines would kill the fade but all the other marines are camping the base and waiting for their doom.
just out of curiosity, shouldn't it be something like
aliens with one hive = marine domination
aliens with two hives = equal power
aliens with three hives = alien domination
or something like that, maybe not EXACTLY like that, but just sort of like an idea, since with one hive, aliens get only the lerk and skulk as fighters, both with not very impressive attacks. with two hives, you get the fades, plus the other aliens get some better skills, (webbing, umbra?, and leap). id imagine by this time, the marines can make heavy armor and hmgs or what not, and base is secure. then 3 hives, onos comes in, you get the bile bomb (i think), xenocide, babblers, and something for the lerk. which by then, the marines should have everything needed. by then marines should have jetpacks, which i heard are good against onoss cuz they cant hit you, (if the room is high enough). anyway, just a theory.
i played as aliens recently, and i was a fade with redemption, i avoided death about five times, which is pretty unfair, since i would get full healing and most likely wouldn't die, and there fore would not have to spend a long time as an egg, and the many resources. because of redemption, i killed very many people before one death, which is most unfair, (for them, i liked it), i dont know what most people use, but i find redemption best for fades, although a bit cheap and unfair.
aobout the guy who wanted to nerf fades to midgame.. all alien creatures are meant to be useful throughout the entire game. Both the skulk and the onos should be considered endgame creatures (if they have 3 hives)..
I love exploding in the middle of the base, weakening and terrifying the marines, and then watch the fades come mop up the mess I make. Lerks have their acid spores, and gorges get their webbing and babblers (god I love adrenaline for gorging)
[edit] oh, about the guy talking about the 240 resources spent on the HA, it costs 50 to build an arms lab in 1.03, 40 to get leve 1 upgrades, 80 more to get level 2, and 60 more for one level three (I go for armor). That adds up to... 230 resources. Oh look, I can still cap a resource node, even. Or maybe upgrade my armory now. decisions decisions..
But it's a strategy game, you get to decide which one to pick (although it isn't much of a strategy game these days).[/edit]
<!--QuoteBegin--Speed 2 Dave+Jan 6 2003, 09:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Speed 2 Dave @ Jan 6 2003, 09:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[edit] oh, about the guy talking about the 240 resources spent on the HA, it costs 50 to build an arms lab in 1.03, 40 to get leve 1 upgrades, 80 more to get level 2, and 60 more for one level three (I go for armor). That adds up to... 230 resources. Oh look, I can still cap a resource node, even. Or maybe upgrade my armory now. decisions decisions.. [/edit]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 10 rp, big difference, thats not going to change a life and death situation.
and for people who say that the best way to kill a fade is with ha and chase them, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? you must really suck if you cant run away from a marine in ha? they are only a third of your speed!!! and the fade goes and runs off to a defense chamber, or two, or three, which happen to be guarded by an offense chamber, or two, or three. If you chase them in light armor, you will die in two seconds from an acid rocket, seriously, how do you beat a fade if you either die in two hits or only go a third of their speed?
Yea I dislike how the game is completely about the 2nd hive, the 3rd hives is completely unnecessary to win! It's all about getting or dening the aliens fades, everything else is minor. It should be viable to go for resources to tech up, but it just isn't worth it as your marines can't cover all the nodes you'd need to protect them. Thus what all the comms do is phase rush.
Fades are appearing in the game too fast considering their abilties, thus we can either: 1) make it harder to get the 2nd hive 2) make the fades weaker in some way 3) make the marines stronger for certain aspect
I really don't want to make lmg any more effective than it currently is vs fade, and the current counter is ha hmg, but that should be a last game outfit not one that appears in 8-10 minutes. I'm thinking that if shotguns were cheaper then comm's could give them out to fight fades, but make them research required so that don't appear too early. Really the shotgun is Rarely seen in this game. Also since the shotgun is much better than the lmg vs buildings its damage could be reduced significantly vs buildings, thus constraining this weapon to fighting fades.
marine rushing only works when the numbers are stacked in their favor, but the concentration of firepower in a fade means that it is very hard to kill any more than one isolated fade. To compare and contrast hmg/ HA with fade, you notice that without support that HA will die as it needs welding / ammo/reload/ health and its very slow, thus you need a team. But the fades can work just as well on their own without a lerk or a gorg.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As soon as aliens get up their second hive, I begin to spam "Rush Fades! Rush Fades! Rush Fades". But it usually ends up with me charging alone into a fade, and dying <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LMG marines should always rush down fades, if you allow a fade to pop in and out of a doorway firing acid rockets at you then healing, you will never kill him, and will die horribly. This is the reason why Web is God.
The reason aliens are so dominant at the 2 hive stage is not just about the fades. Fades are the 'meat' unit, they deal damage, they take damage. They are a very fast and versatile meat unit, but thats all they are. Fades are such an effective meat unit that they can dominate regular marines with little effort, and will beat most things short of HA/HMG tech. However, in a standoff fight, HA/HMG is superior 'meat' to fades. This is not to say you automatically beatdown fades once you have HA/HMG, the speed and effective range advantage of the fades still gives them something of an edge. A HA/HMG in a mid range fight with a fade should kill the fade, but a fade can keep his distance and hit and run the HA into submission, because his speed means the HA can never charge down a fade.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ha/HMG needs more than 10 minutes and is not the EQUAL of fades but the BETTER. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On the whole, i agree with this, but as i just mentioned, 2 hive aliens are not just about the fades...
Lerk/offensive gorge support increases the potency of fades many many times over. Everyone understands the strength of umbra, but the importance of the offensive webbing/spray gorge often goes unmentioned. The aliens have a significant speed advantage and range advantage at this stage, the HMG by comparision is relatively weak over any distance. There is no way at all you can penetrate an umbra/spray combo from range with a HMG. To deal any significant damage you have to charge and get up close to the aliens, maximising your damage. The problem is, any player chasing, or close to a fade/lerk/gorge combo can be considered dead - never underestimate the potency of offensive webbing. A couple of gorges can kill several HA/HMG guys solo, without a need for the fade at all. I do not believe that simple HA/HMG tech is a match for properly played 2 hive aliens at all, and the 1.04 games i've played seem to confirm this. To go toe to toe with this combo you *need* GLs, meaning anything less than the full monty of marine tech, HA/HMG/GL/Welder can still be beaten by a good 2 hive alien team. With GLs, the marines possibly have the edge, but varying advantages are afforded to each team. The alien combo is more resource efficient, because of the reduced costs of gorges and lerks. The marine team has the spawn time advantage, becaue of pooled resources and no evolution time. The alien team has the speed advantage, ability to retreat easily from any fight they can't win or pick off stragglers. Marines have phases between set locations, which can be seen as an extra boost to their spawning speed. Marines can use large amounts of resources to fuel their extremely fast spawning, along with health spamming etc. Aliens can use excess res for large scale offensive towering, even mid-fight.
This would surely be a very entertaining battle, trouble is the chances of each team reaching this tech stage at the same time is practically nil. And if one side gets the tech first, they start off a downwads spiral where they use their tech advantage to muscle the other side of res points and strategic positions to ultimately secure the game.
Its because of this that the most important aspect of the game right now is not how well your team executes fade/gorge/lerk assaults against co-ordinated marine combos, the most important aspect of the game is being able to reach that tech level before your opponent. Which means the game is a battle for hives, and to a lesser extent res nodes. The problem with the fight for res nodes is that marines have rather limited methods of defending them, meaning that unless there is a double/triple res area, it is more effective for marines to take hives and deny alien tech. Although tech rushes seem to be becoming more popular, most are based on the idea of reaching a certain tech before the 2nd hive is up, and then using that tech to kill a hive, preventing the aliens from reaching 2 hive tech, the overall aim is no different to trying to tower up 2 hives, its just done slightly differently.
The problem with marines defending res nodes is this: on most maps, res nodes come on their lonesome, and are spread out across the map. Each res node offers a small advantage, and there are many to be held. Because of this, it is not cost effective to invest in defence at each res node. Aliens are fast, deal damage very quickly, marines are slow and have difficulty covering large areas because of their speed. Marines use phase to counter the aliens mobility advantage, but phase is only effective for moving between a small number of important positions such as hives. To build a lone phase at every res node you try to hold is not an effective strategy, particularly after the changes to phase health. A group of skulks can rush a res tower and kill it before a marine in an adjacent room can do anything about it, likewise they can kill a phase before marines can even react to the attack. This is different in locations such as atmospheric processing or cargo bay, where marines can access many res points in 1 compact location - here you can afford to properly defend and phase to the area. 1 phase, TF and turret set for 3 res points is worth the effort.
If marines ignore the aliens quest for a second hive, and instead focus on capping as many res points as possible, with the aim of being able to support HA/HMG/GL/Welder to go directly against fade/lerk/gorge, their res points will be harassed by skulk teams. In order to get this tech level in time, they need to hold a significant number of res points. Which in most maps will be spread out and very difficult for marines to defend effectively. In 1.03, It is not possible to use this tactic unless you play a map with a large amount of clumped up, easy to defend res points, and also harrass the aliens to slow their tech. Even if you manage that, the chances of you succeeding with this tactic are poor in comparison to traditional marine tactics. Which focus on stopping the aliens from ever getting fades in the first place. In 1.04, i am unsure if it is possible to tech immediately up to meet fades - the change in fade cost might make this tactic viable in some cases, although it is not something i would want to try on a map such as eclipse. Time will tell.
I´m the only one that knows fade cost has been increased. Now a fade costs 54 so a fully upgraded fade at 2-hive situation costs 58. HA/HMG marine cost is 50 and 1 HA/HMG marine pulverizes 1 CARA/ADRE fade so at 2-hive situation if HA/HMG marine apears, marines have the advantage.
I think the problem is that there is a big diference between LA/LMG and HA/HMG marine so at 2-hive situation marines must have HA and HMG. If they dont, they lose.
I've been quite a bit since 1.04 and I'd have to say that the aliens win more than marines ALOT more I've noticed.
I'm not really bagging anyone or anything as I think this is the best game in years <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
But it just seems that aliens can get the fades up sooo quick now! I like the fades being tuff to defeat and all and I dont want anything changed! Other than maybe slowing down how quickly fades/lerks(umbra) get established just a little bit !!!
Just needs a little tweak <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--LoboLeal+Jan 29 2003, 06:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (LoboLeal @ Jan 29 2003, 06:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I´m the only one that knows fade cost has been increased. Now a fade costs 54 so a fully upgraded fade at 2-hive situation costs 58. HA/HMG marine cost is 50 and 1 HA/HMG marine pulverizes 1 CARA/ADRE fade so at 2-hive situation if HA/HMG marine apears, marines have the advantage. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You didn't read my post at all did you....
Comments
Oh my god, he is an admin??? Well then he has to be true, hasen't he?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You guys keep saying that by the time aliens have two hives, marines have HMGS and HA. NOT TRUE.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
TRUE INDEED :o). ip 22 + armory 25 + adv armory 35. That is 82 rp, marines start with around 100 rp so you can get hmg right at start of game. So lets assume you have 0 rp after having hmg (you will have more since you get more rp than 82 but just to make things easier). The gorge trying to set up 2nd hive has 0 as well at start (in fact he has -3, 10 starting rp and needs 13 to evolve to gorge). Now you need another 120 rp for ha while the gorge needs 80 rp. But since the gorge has to share with all other aliens till they cap out (and they only cap out after 23*# of aliens if they do not use any resources at all) you will have no problem having ha before they have 2nd hive up (well, maybe if you play a 1vs1 game :o).
Beetlejuice said that aliens have a lack of minerals, while minerals are shared, its not my fault that alien players go after hives before the resource towers, which would probably help them get the hives faster. im not sure what aliens do, but it sounds like the aliens try for hives first, which is probably not the best idea
And about building. ANY marine can build a marine structure, the only limitation is that the commander has droped it before. So unless your commander completely sucks and is not even able to click once on the structure and then on the place he wants them to build this is not much of a limitation. While aliens first have to go gorge (spending 13 rp), most of the time wait for resources since they have individual rp and are easy prey while building (because a building gorge is much easier to kill as a building ha&hmg marine). It all has its ups and downs. Aliens are more individual, marines have more tools to effectively organize teamplay (once you played with a good commander you know what i mean).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Catgirl Posted: Dec 30 2002, 11:47 PM
The reason for the big server / small server "difference" is that for Marines, they need lots of buildings that don't help ANY SPECIFIC MARINE. The Arms Lab, the Observatory, the Armoury, the Infantry Portal... The function of all these buildings is duplicated by Alien Hives. New weapons, Hivesight, and spawning all come from Hives. Ammo is automatically regenerated.
Because of this, Marines require much more RP to function...and so on a larger server where the Marines get a much larger "team pool" of resources...they can afford to be upgraded and get Heavy Armour, Heavy Machine Guns and the like...whereas the Aliens are still getting those same resources; but still divvied up amongst each player, thereby giving each individual player no real bonus to their resources while the Marines are rolling in team-shared resources.
Basically...on a small server Aliens can get a second Hive and have one Fade with Carapace and Adrenaline completely DESTROY the Marines while the Marines are still frantically trying to afford to pump some upgrades out of their Arms Lab.
This is just a flaw of the resource model...
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/NB
QUOTE
Catgirl Posted: Dec 30 2002, 11:47 PM
The reason for the big server / small server "difference" is that for Marines, they need lots of buildings that don't help ANY SPECIFIC MARINE. The Arms Lab, the Observatory, the Armoury, the Infantry Portal... The function of all these buildings is duplicated by Alien Hives. New weapons, Hivesight, and spawning all come from Hives. Ammo is automatically regenerated.
Because of this, Marines require much more RP to function...and so on a larger server where the Marines get a much larger "team pool" of resources...they can afford to be upgraded and get Heavy Armour, Heavy Machine Guns and the like...whereas the Aliens are still getting those same resources; but still divvied up amongst each player, thereby giving each individual player no real bonus to their resources while the Marines are rolling in team-shared resources.
Basically...on a small server Aliens can get a second Hive and have one Fade with Carapace and Adrenaline completely DESTROY the Marines while the Marines are still frantically trying to afford to pump some upgrades out of their Arms Lab.
This is just a flaw of the resource model...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, this is the problem. Forget balancing fades etc, get this sorted out.
If u think aliens win all the time, try and find a big server. If u think its marines who rule, play a few games on a small server. Ull see the difference.
This is why people are comming here saying, ohhh, Aliens always win !
And then u get the other lot saying its the other way round......
I musta stirred up the bees nest. Midgame balance would really be appreciated. When it comes to skill it all depends on what players are on. The [DoGS] Server has gone from 1-2 minute matches to 4 hours depending on the skill. We shouldn't be basing our discussion on skill, more or lessly the balance of the teams in general. I love games that last 1-4 hours. Games that last only 30 minutes are teh sux0r. Skill does play a fair role in the game, but how the teams our balanced is a biggie.
My 2 lil pennies
The main reason people complain so much about fades is that few commanders are able to get the appropreate upgrades in time because they focus in the wrong directions. Let's break down the resources. For the sake of argument I'm going to give the Fade full caraprice and Adrenaline
Armory Upgrade: 35rp
Arms Lab: 50rp
Prototype Lab: 45rp
Heavy Armor Upgrade: 50rp
HMG: 25rp
HA: 25rp
_____________________
Total cost: 230rt
x3 Defense Chamber: 42rp
Hive: 80rp
x3 Movement Chamber: 42rp
Fade Upgrade: 44rp
Caraprice Upgrade: 2rp
Adrenaline Upgrade: 2rp
______________________
Total cost: 212rp
18 whole Rp more to get your first HA/HMG out the door than your first fade
Why doesn't this situation come up more often?
Many commanders spend 25 + 19 + 19 on initial base turrets, imho a waste (how often do you see the aliens spend thier initial resources on base turrets?)
A single skulk will generally make short work of any undefended marine RT, whereas the average marine cannot take out an alien RT in most cases as the aliens will be alerted and arrive.
Solution?: Take a line of RTs to a hive and patrol them: have your marines run patrols (IE from Cargo Storage and back to base, covering 3-4 rts on Ns_nothing)
Whoop gotta get to LoTR, will continue this post later!
1.) You die with 2 acid rockets and the damage you did in that time is healed by the def chamber nearby. The same goes for your mate that rushed with you bc of splash damage.
2.) Most of the time there is more than 1 fade meaning while 1 regenerates/retreats the other keeps incoming marines at bay
3.) If there is a lerk casting umbra you will suffer the pain of the 1000 useless deaths.
4.) A gorge webbing/offence towering is the final chapter in the great book of alien assault tactics.
Summary: Aliens and their buildings regenerate marines not so in the long run marines nearly always loose. The comm cannot babysit every single group of marines dropping health packs and welders, he has attacks to fend of, build stuff, research, give orders, keep nozzles alive equipp people.. you get the idea. And a HA guy is worth **obscenity** if hes webbed.(And if he weldes the fade rocket him)
Most deadly combination ingame : FADE/GORG combo. I do it alot so if you are on a 1.04 sever watch out. The gorg webbing, healing the nearby fades and putting OC in your base is me <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Die with 2 acid rockets? You must be talking about LA. Just remeber something: an LA LMG marine costs 0rp, takes 3 seconds to spawn and can get to the battle instantly if there is a phase gate. He is worth jack****.
A Fade, on the other hand, costs 44rp, takes much longer to spawn in and longer still to evolve.
An HA HMG marine costs the same as an upgraded Fade and can kill him in less than a clip, while the Fade has to recharge adrenaline at least once unless he fancies trying to get in with the claws. And lets not forget the marine takes much less time to create.
Conclusion: acid rocket has a purpose. In a firefight a fade won't stand a chance against an accurate marine of equivalent cost. It is good for taking out turret farms, but not much else on the alien side is, and if there is a marine amongst the turret farm the fade is screwed.
Ok, so a fade goes back and recharges: PURSUE IT. A fade cannot take on 3 'free' LA LMG marines at a medium range if they are spaced out, or even one HA HMG marine: I've tried and been beaten, and I'm no n00b. Fades are good very close and at a medium-long range, but at an ordinary range they will be outgunned.
If the fades outnumber the marines at the location, it means the marines outnumber the aliens somewhere else. Remember also that not every alien is a fade: the alien gorge can only really build and not fight, while any marine can build and fight.
Fades are meant to be an elite unit, much like an HA HMG marine. You might say Onos is the elite unit, but it is not a good all-round fighter: it is immobile and has no ranged attack: useless versus jetpacks. The Onos is available when the aliens have 3 hives, and I'm sure most will agree that when the aliens have secured 3 hives the game is already won. The Onos is designed as a finishing unit, the unit to finally crush the marines camping in their turret farm once the game has been won. Fades are the alien elite all-round fighter unit, Onos are useful simply for the final assault.
Well if you've bothered to read all of this and disagree with any of the points, please let me know.
I do agree that it is too hard for the commander to drop medpacks everywhere, and I believe there should be a healing building that works like an armoury or something, but that's irrelevant here.
Otherwise, stop saying the fades are too powerful - I've played with them and died - and enjoy the game.
This isn't a flaw with the Fades, mind you. Just the resource model.
Basically...the res curve needs to be levelled off somewhere greater than 6 players per team and under 10 players per team for the Marines. Too few players and they have nowhere near the resources they need, but too many players and they can drop 2 HMGs every time a Marine dies and not even feel the ding.
Aliens...well...they basically "always" work...look at a one-Gorge Alien team of 4 players and one of 10 players and you'll see it basically takes the exact same amount of time to get the second Hive up no matter what, if Marines don't interfere.
At present HA tend to get done over by fades because of webbing and umbra. GL are too expesive and quite unweildy (prime duration is long).
Make GL better and marines will stand a good chance.
I don't really have many comments on alien-marine balance. I haven't had any match experience (and that's where the reality of a team game comes through), and in pubs you can't really determine the balance of the teams; you usually only see how poorly players can work together. Coordinated marines are death. I play aliens a lot (just starting to play more marines), and the worst thing in the world is a commander that knows what he's doing, and marines that will do what the commander tells them to. After playing several games of being pushed back step by bloody step by suicide LA-LMG'ers and HA-grenadiers all I can say is that aliens <i>usually</i> win pubs because coordination is not <b>as</b> important as it is for the marines. If you have a few bad team players on the aliens, the team can still do alright with a few outstanding loners. Marines, on the other hand, get screwed by each loner who runs out and dies.
Oh my god, he is an admin??? Well then he has to be true, hasen't he?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good thing I didn't mention being a FPS developer :/
Anyways, we know the marines have a large advantage in large games, and the aliens have a large advantage in small games. What we are asking is to address the mid-game marine strength in mid-sized games (14-18).
The point about marines being more expensive due to the "tactically useless" buildings has a very good point. The alien upgrades are quick and to the point. 3D + 3M = Mass 0wnage. For the marines its..
IPx2
Armory->Advanced->Equipping
Observatory->Motion Tracking
Arms Lab->Level1x2->Level2x2->Level3x3
Prototype Lab->Jetpack->HA + actual equipping
Welders dropped spratically to heal structures and armor
Total cost: 1 bajillion dollars
To help the marine mid-game do you guys think lowering sentry turret and shotgun costs. Those are effective early-game, but can't be used due to their high prices, and most money going to upgrades. But if the shotgun was 12-15 I'd be more inclined to have one with each marine group.
So lesson: Fades should be rushed at. They should not be allowed to regenerate OR get their adrenaline level back up. Just rush ->die->respawn->rush->kill
This is not Counterstrike. You won't have to wait till the end the roumd to spawn back. You're meaningless. YOU ARE ROBERT PAULSEN. Die for the team...
What happened? My theory is this. 1.01, fades are weak. 1.02, fades are buffed to match balance. 1.03, AOE damage bugs being fixxed suddenly vastly increase potency of fade acid rocket, but the Fade buffs remained. Oops!
Now, I've been going back and forth over assorted Natural Selection Boards for weeks on this. If you care to get caught up on the current state of the matter, feel free to read:
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=17387&st=47' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...1&t=17387&st=47</a>
From my excessive whining and counterwhining on the subject, I've determined that here's what basically needs to happen:
1) Fades need to be nerfed down to "mid-game" firepower instead of "end-game" firepower.
2) Umbra may or may not need to be nerfed down to less potency. It's another Hive 2 ability that is a major game swayer. Perhaps if it blocked 6 out of 10 bullets instead of 8 out of 10.
3) Aliens with two hives need to retain a means to clear out a marine hold on their third hive.
4) Marines need to have a better means to hold their resources so that they can "tech up" in order to counter fades.
I've come up with a few solutions along these lines. I'm not saying that these are the end all best solutions. Nor am I suggesting that I do not have full confidence in the Natural Selection team's abilities to come up with their own solutions. However, here's a few examples of what I've come up with.
My first suggestion was to nerf Fade Acid Rocket's damage against infantry, as that is where their real overpower influence is, nasty AOE heavy damaging acid rockets. I was thinking halving their damage against marines while keeping the same damage against structures (because they still need a means to clear out hives). In practice, this should mean a Fade has to land twice the acid rockets to down a marine or resort to their claws. However, I suggested this over on Planet Natural Selection and it had an <a href='http://www.planetns.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=225' target='_blank'>unfavorable impact</a>.
That brings us to my next suggestion. One of the lead reasons two hives lands an alien victory is the sheer versitility of the weapons two hives brings. The marines, on the other hand, have nothing but direct fire weaponry with the exception of the (very expencive) Grenade Launcher and (mostly useless) mines, and a few other weapons they'll never get close enough to use. Okay, so what we're looking at is basically marines need a way to counter the fade's nasty acid rocket attacks, the lerk's umbra, and the gorge's webbing. If only there was such a thing as a weapon with the area of effect fade acid rockets possess that was impervious to Lerk's umbra and capable of removing gorge webbing. Like, oh, I don't know, a <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=17710' target='_blank'>hand grenade</a>? No, not the grenade launcher. A cheaper, more available, less potent, hand tossed, hand grenade. Possibly spawning on the marine after research is done. Possibly restricted in other ways (say replenishable only by death), appearing in slot 4. Trust me, I wouldn't suggest it if it didn't fit so well.
First two suggestions not to your liking? Well, I could be mean and call you uninformed or I could offer you suggestion number three:
Suggestion number three is mere economy adjustment. Games under 20 players have an alien advantage. Games over 20 players have a marine advantage. Why is that? Resource income and how it works. Servers with higher population give the commander more income, which means more marine research he can do and more uber nasty weapons he can drop. Sure Fades are nasty, but when the marines have a bit better gear at their disposal they can counter them that much better. The idea: Bonus resources for marines for servers under 20 players, and a penalty to marines for servers over 20 players.
What I find is that on pub servers, the marines lose the game rather than the aliens winning it, usually. Sucky aliens wins over sucky marines.
Still, it is true that marines on smaller servers have a really hard time building up to the tech level they need to have a chance. Take a look at this <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=18081' target='_blank'>this article </a> and its accompanying spreadsheet for the hard numbers and a suggestion how to modify the resource system - which incidentially is pretty much like your #3 suggestion (though I think the balance point is more towards 6v6 game rather than 10v10 games - guess it depends on how many times you have played with/against good marine commanders).
2nd hive + 3 def chambers + 3 movement chambers = 80 + (14*3) + (14*3) = 164.1 Fade would be 208 res then.Then on a standard 8 player server,assuming 1 gorg, 208 + (6*44) = 472.Of course we all know that the alien resource system is different in a unique way,and i THINK the RTs give more res to the aliens to compensate for the dividing among the teams.I remember with 4 RTs 1 gorg + 7 normal aliens,the 7 normal aliens were getting 1 res per tick and the gorg was getting 5-7 res per tick....do the maths....it definately CANT be the same as the marines.
Heres some simple calculations :
(Arms lab + upgraded armory + proto lab + heavy armor) + (welder + hmg + ha) = (50 + 35 + 45 + 50) + (10 + 25 + 25) = 180 + 60 = 240.
240 res for ONE(1) person's hmg/ha/welder.
ONE PERSON.
For an 8 player server,that means 7 marines,excluding the commander.
240 + (60*6)= 600 res for hmg/ha/welder for the WHOLE TEAM.
You may argue that,with welders,etc,blah blah blah ha/hmg/welder marines own fades blah blah blah and i can argue that it is not true,since fades can own ha/hmg/welder marines with hit and run attacks,which actually i killed 5 ha/hmg/welder marines that were pursuing me with acidrocket hit and runs,everytime i heard that welder sound,popped out and shot.Eventually they died.
Pfft.Ha/Hmg marines need no time?I suppose the research time is thrown and armory upgrade time is thrown completely out of the window?
If they get fades before you get ha/hmg you = dead.
If they get ha/hmg before you get fades you = dead.
Only 2 choices?BS.
Btw choice 2 NEVER happens unless you secure 2 hives as it takes so little time to get a hive up.
Marines need something that would make them the EQUAL of fades,that they can get within 10 minutes,which is the usual time the fades appear unless you secure 2 hives.Ha/HMG needs more than 10 minutes and is not the EQUAL of fades but the BETTER.
One problem I think is that everyone forgets shotguns. They're great. So much damage in so little time, especially against something as big as a fade. Unfortunately the commander always tries to plow towards HMG while forgetting the great shotty.
And I think a handgrenade would be great. I can't count the number of times I've thought "I wish I had a grenade right now. Just one."
Sorry that I'm a little all over the place, but I do think that there still needs some tweaking to give the marines a better chance against the fades.
The only problem I see are stupid marines. As soon as fades are attacking the marine base they are running around like chickens, camping the armory and few marines try to leave the base but they meet the big bad fade and die. Same thing goes for me. I try to attack one hive but nobody follows me. I meet the fade and shoot it than I die. Respawn. Fade dies, next fade kills me. Two marines would kill the fade but all the other marines are camping the base and waiting for their doom.
All he did was run away and spam acid rockets,4 marines died.
aliens with one hive = marine domination
aliens with two hives = equal power
aliens with three hives = alien domination
or something like that, maybe not EXACTLY like that, but just sort of like an idea, since with one hive, aliens get only the lerk and skulk as fighters, both with not very impressive attacks. with two hives, you get the fades, plus the other aliens get some better skills, (webbing, umbra?, and leap). id imagine by this time, the marines can make heavy armor and hmgs or what not, and base is secure. then 3 hives, onos comes in, you get the bile bomb (i think), xenocide, babblers, and something for the lerk. which by then, the marines should have everything needed. by then marines should have jetpacks, which i heard are good against onoss cuz they cant hit you, (if the room is high enough). anyway, just a theory.
I love exploding in the middle of the base, weakening and terrifying the marines, and then watch the fades come mop up the mess I make. Lerks have their acid spores, and gorges get their webbing and babblers (god I love adrenaline for gorging)
[edit] oh, about the guy talking about the 240 resources spent on the HA, it costs 50 to build an arms lab in 1.03, 40 to get leve 1 upgrades, 80 more to get level 2, and 60 more for one level three (I go for armor). That adds up to... 230 resources. Oh look, I can still cap a resource node, even. Or maybe upgrade my armory now. decisions decisions..
But it's a strategy game, you get to decide which one to pick (although it isn't much of a strategy game these days).[/edit]
10 rp, big difference, thats not going to change a life and death situation.
and for people who say that the best way to kill a fade is with ha and chase them, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? you must really suck if you cant run away from a marine in ha? they are only a third of your speed!!! and the fade goes and runs off to a defense chamber, or two, or three, which happen to be guarded by an offense chamber, or two, or three. If you chase them in light armor, you will die in two seconds from an acid rocket, seriously, how do you beat a fade if you either die in two hits or only go a third of their speed?
Fades are appearing in the game too fast considering their abilties, thus we can either:
1) make it harder to get the 2nd hive
2) make the fades weaker in some way
3) make the marines stronger for certain aspect
I really don't want to make lmg any more effective than it currently is vs fade, and the current counter is ha hmg, but that should be a last game outfit not one that appears in 8-10 minutes. I'm thinking that if shotguns were cheaper then comm's could give them out to fight fades, but make them research required so that don't appear too early. Really the shotgun is Rarely seen in this game. Also since the shotgun is much better than the lmg vs buildings its damage could be reduced significantly vs buildings, thus constraining this weapon to fighting fades.
marine rushing only works when the numbers are stacked in their favor, but the concentration of firepower in a fade means that it is very hard to kill any more than one isolated fade. To compare and contrast hmg/ HA with fade, you notice that without support that HA will die as it needs welding / ammo/reload/ health and its very slow, thus you need a team. But the fades can work just as well on their own without a lerk or a gorg.
As soon as aliens get up their second hive, I begin to spam "Rush Fades! Rush Fades! Rush Fades". But it usually ends up with me charging alone into a fade, and dying
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LMG marines should always rush down fades, if you allow a fade to pop in and out of a doorway firing acid rockets at you then healing, you will never kill him, and will die horribly. This is the reason why Web is God.
The reason aliens are so dominant at the 2 hive stage is not just about the fades. Fades are the 'meat' unit, they deal damage, they take damage. They are a very fast and versatile meat unit, but thats all they are. Fades are such an effective meat unit that they can dominate regular marines with little effort, and will beat most things short of HA/HMG tech. However, in a standoff fight, HA/HMG is superior 'meat' to fades. This is not to say you automatically beatdown fades once you have HA/HMG, the speed and effective range advantage of the fades still gives them something of an edge. A HA/HMG in a mid range fight with a fade should kill the fade, but a fade can keep his distance and hit and run the HA into submission, because his speed means the HA can never charge down a fade.
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Ha/HMG needs more than 10 minutes and is not the EQUAL of fades but the BETTER.
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On the whole, i agree with this, but as i just mentioned, 2 hive aliens are not just about the fades...
Lerk/offensive gorge support increases the potency of fades many many times over. Everyone understands the strength of umbra, but the importance of the offensive webbing/spray gorge often goes unmentioned. The aliens have a significant speed advantage and range advantage at this stage, the HMG by comparision is relatively weak over any distance. There is no way at all you can penetrate an umbra/spray combo from range with a HMG. To deal any significant damage you have to charge and get up close to the aliens, maximising your damage. The problem is, any player chasing, or close to a fade/lerk/gorge combo can be considered dead - never underestimate the potency of offensive webbing. A couple of gorges can kill several HA/HMG guys solo, without a need for the fade at all. I do not believe that simple HA/HMG tech is a match for properly played 2 hive aliens at all, and the 1.04 games i've played seem to confirm this. To go toe to toe with this combo you *need* GLs, meaning anything less than the full monty of marine tech, HA/HMG/GL/Welder can still be beaten by a good 2 hive alien team. With GLs, the marines possibly have the edge, but varying advantages are afforded to each team. The alien combo is more resource efficient, because of the reduced costs of gorges and lerks. The marine team has the spawn time advantage, becaue of pooled resources and no evolution time. The alien team has the speed advantage, ability to retreat easily from any fight they can't win or pick off stragglers. Marines have phases between set locations, which can be seen as an extra boost to their spawning speed. Marines can use large amounts of resources to fuel their extremely fast spawning, along with health spamming etc. Aliens can use excess res for large scale offensive towering, even mid-fight.
This would surely be a very entertaining battle, trouble is the chances of each team reaching this tech stage at the same time is practically nil. And if one side gets the tech first, they start off a downwads spiral where they use their tech advantage to muscle the other side of res points and strategic positions to ultimately secure the game.
Its because of this that the most important aspect of the game right now is not how well your team executes fade/gorge/lerk assaults against co-ordinated marine combos, the most important aspect of the game is being able to reach that tech level before your opponent. Which means the game is a battle for hives, and to a lesser extent res nodes. The problem with the fight for res nodes is that marines have rather limited methods of defending them, meaning that unless there is a double/triple res area, it is more effective for marines to take hives and deny alien tech. Although tech rushes seem to be becoming more popular, most are based on the idea of reaching a certain tech before the 2nd hive is up, and then using that tech to kill a hive, preventing the aliens from reaching 2 hive tech, the overall aim is no different to trying to tower up 2 hives, its just done slightly differently.
The problem with marines defending res nodes is this: on most maps, res nodes come on their lonesome, and are spread out across the map. Each res node offers a small advantage, and there are many to be held. Because of this, it is not cost effective to invest in defence at each res node. Aliens are fast, deal damage very quickly, marines are slow and have difficulty covering large areas because of their speed. Marines use phase to counter the aliens mobility advantage, but phase is only effective for moving between a small number of important positions such as hives. To build a lone phase at every res node you try to hold is not an effective strategy, particularly after the changes to phase health. A group of skulks can rush a res tower and kill it before a marine in an adjacent room can do anything about it, likewise they can kill a phase before marines can even react to the attack. This is different in locations such as atmospheric processing or cargo bay, where marines can access many res points in 1 compact location - here you can afford to properly defend and phase to the area. 1 phase, TF and turret set for 3 res points is worth the effort.
If marines ignore the aliens quest for a second hive, and instead focus on capping as many res points as possible, with the aim of being able to support HA/HMG/GL/Welder to go directly against fade/lerk/gorge, their res points will be harassed by skulk teams. In order to get this tech level in time, they need to hold a significant number of res points. Which in most maps will be spread out and very difficult for marines to defend effectively. In 1.03, It is not possible to use this tactic unless you play a map with a large amount of clumped up, easy to defend res points, and also harrass the aliens to slow their tech. Even if you manage that, the chances of you succeeding with this tactic are poor in comparison to traditional marine tactics. Which focus on stopping the aliens from ever getting fades in the first place. In 1.04, i am unsure if it is possible to tech immediately up to meet fades - the change in fade cost might make this tactic viable in some cases, although it is not something i would want to try on a map such as eclipse. Time will tell.
I think the problem is that there is a big diference between LA/LMG and HA/HMG marine so at 2-hive situation marines must have HA and HMG. If they dont, they lose.
I'm not really bagging anyone or anything as I think this is the best game in years <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
But it just seems that aliens can get the fades up sooo quick now! I like the fades being tuff to defeat and all and I dont want anything changed! Other than maybe slowing down how quickly fades/lerks(umbra) get established just a little bit !!!
Just needs a little tweak <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
You didn't read my post at all did you....