aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
^ They already have a thrown grenade model for NS2, it would just be a matter of putting it back in along with the code. Nothing like killing a skulk or gorge in a vent ^^, although I don't really see gorges or skulks hanging out long in vents anymore like NS1.
Grenades are going to be making a comeback in some form.
To be frank, nades are a balance nightmare. Its the reason why some big title games (see TF2) left them out. The current GL already has some of the spammy nature of nades that it mostly balanced out by the fact that they aren't researched that often. It also doesn't take many nades to effectively spam the small, enclosed spaces that make up most maps.
If there is a strong desire for a marine-standard explosive, I'd prefer something like a throwable detpack (e.g. left-click to throw, right-click to detonate). Its requires more precision and less prone to spam.
LOL... if UWE plans on modifying all game mechanics based on 24+ player servers, I think I'll have to find a new game to play.
They need to make the mechanics work somewhat well at different playercounts. Many of the big changes from NS1 (e.g. alien khamm, PRes/TRes, etc) we're made to help balance scale better with playercount. Its obviously not perfect right now so I'm hesitant adding additional elements that are not likely to scale very well either.
I dont think hand grenades are a balance nightmare - they make defending RTs easier which marines seem to struggle with in NS2. As long as they have a reasonable cost and limited ammo supply they would be fine.
Hand grenades were a lot of fun. I don't remember then ever being considered super strong, they were just nice to have. IMO they should be replenished at the armory but on a fairly long cooldown.
I really dont see how hand grenades would be unbalanced... im assuming that they'd have a pres cost, so if you wanted to spam them you'd run out res pretty quick. I think if you essentially make them work like mines (5 res each, same explosion damage/radius) there would be no problems. I see it as an active counterpart to the passive mine. Skulk in the vent? You can mine the exit and walk away, or chuck a grenade in there and see if you can get the kill. Hopefully they will be cookable so i can cause them to explode on a lerk mid air xD
Would love different grenade types, like flash, nerve gas, smoke, etc.
Smoke would be hilariously bad, 'cause aliens can see through smoke. :P
Scan grenades, however, might be cool. Scans at half the range of a commander scan, does no damage. Sometimes I have extra PRES and I want to help mitigate the use of TRES.
I dont think hand grenades are a balance nightmare - they make defending RTs easier which marines seem to struggle with in NS2. As long as they have a reasonable cost and limited ammo supply they would be fine.
In theory, it shouldn't be a problem, but I rarely see good grenade mechanics in online multiplayer games. Trying to prevent nadespam frequently makes them worthless or gimped.
Capping or requiring rebuying via PRes may work, but then it becomes less intuitive. "Why can I get rifle/pistol but not grenade ammo from armories/ammopacks?" for example. Best just to avoid the whole mess in the first place imo.
I dont think hand grenades are a balance nightmare - they make defending RTs easier which marines seem to struggle with in NS2.
Yes, this was our main motivation for deciding to, possibly, add grenades to NS2.
Would it not be easier to just make it so that marines can shoot skulks hiding behind extractors more easily?
Grenades introduce a slew of balance concerns when they're used for anything but protecting RTs, and hell, killing RTs is the main alien tactic, so even that's going to seriously mess with the balance.
If they're easily available they're going to be annoying, if they're not easily available why bother wasting money on them instead of a GL?
Smoke would be hilariously bad, 'cause aliens can see through smoke. :P
Scan grenades, however, might be cool. Scans at half the range of a commander scan, does no damage. Sometimes I have extra PRES and I want to help mitigate the use of TRES.
Even better, not seeing the smoke while they choke inside helps
Instead of pure explosive, how about EMP shock grenade?
- On impact with a surface or player, the grenade emits an EMP field (drains # energy/sec) for several seconds
- On impact with a friendly building, building emits EMP field for several seconds (make the effect look like Electrify for maximum nostalgia)
Won't do much if you don't shoot, but does cripple aliens that hide behind RTs!
Smoke would be hilariously bad, 'cause aliens can see through smoke. :P
Scan grenades, however, might be cool. Scans at half the range of a commander scan, does no damage. Sometimes I have extra PRES and I want to help mitigate the use of TRES.
Even better, not seeing the smoke while they choke inside helps
Instead of pure explosive, how about EMP shock grenade?
- On impact with a surface or player, the grenade emits an EMP field (drains # energy/sec) for several seconds
- On impact with a friendly building, building emits EMP field for several seconds (make the effect look like Electrify for maximum nostalgia)
Won't do much if you don't shoot, but does cripple aliens that hide behind RTs!
Rename that to tazer grenade and switch effects to match.
It seems odd that EMPs are more effective against the squishy aliens than marine technology.
I dont think hand grenades are a balance nightmare - they make defending RTs easier which marines seem to struggle with in NS2.
Yes, this was our main motivation for deciding to, possibly, add grenades to NS2.
What?
Sorry but you have to be having a lend of us.
Marines have trouble holding res towers? If you can get in range to throw a grenade you can shoot that skulk.
This is the worst reason I have heard of as to why they are needed, its hard enough for aliens to take down extractors.
The number of times I have tried to avoid a marine whilst taking out an extractor is huge...my success rate not so.
If its a problem for the marine then they need to learn to shoot, sorry but you can see the skulk model when its munching...the fact that being shot in the foot does as much damage as a body shot makes the task even easier.
This just removes any chance aliens have of hiding in vents in teh small window before either JP's or GL's are researched.
Aliens are meant to hide in vents, around corners etc...allowing grenades will simply make either of these harder.
I seriously wonder at times if UWE are adding things based on need and balance basis or a whim....it seems the later.
Marines can already get into almost every vent on maps even before jp's are researched.
This is right up there with the GL attachment for the LMG as far as bad ideas goes.
All this whining about grenades being too spammy or hard to balance would carry more weight if it weren't directly contradicted by NS1 post 3.1, which did a great job of making them a viable option without making them a no-brainer.
Mines 15 res = 3 potential explosions
Granades 5 res = 1 explosion
But mines cost 15 to research, maby granades would go for 15 aswell so its not availible from start to prevent spam?
or even have 10 res for 1 granade, otherwise every harvester takedown will involve 3 people dropping a nade each on it and they will go down in matter of seconds when they start shooting it. so building a harvester takes longer time to get it up and running than killing it. that would fuck up the alien economy so maby make the granades availible only when marines got 2 or even 3 bases so it will be something used in later games where you already have jetpack/shotgunners flying in and taking out harvesters in matter of seconds. this just give you more options to choose from and is not overpowered if you balence it correctly.
I miss having a throwable, but I'd rather see something that perhaps lit up a room or acted like a mini scan or something. Multiple grenade options could be interesting. Perhaps more weapons for marines that work as utilities rather than weapons as such.
Mines 15 res = 3 potential explosions
Granades 5 res = 1 explosion
But mines cost 15 to research, maby granades would go for 15 aswell so its not availible from start to prevent spam?
or even have 10 res for 1 granade, otherwise every harvester takedown will involve 3 people dropping a nade each on it and they will go down in matter of seconds when they start shooting it. so building a harvester takes longer time to get it up and running than killing it. that would fuck up the alien economy so maby make the granades availible only when marines got 2 or even 3 bases so it will be something used in later games where you already have jetpack/shotgunners flying in and taking out harvesters in matter of seconds. this just give you more options to choose from and is not overpowered if you balence it correctly.
I think if grenades return it will most likely not be an anti-structure weapon anyway, but more of a counter to pesky vent gorges, base rushes and extractor hugging skulks. And one can always tweak the values to make sure it's not easily spammable (res costs, carry limit) and not too strong (damage/radius/timer values). But it should definitely be available for research on one CC.
Would love different grenade types, like flash, nerve gas, smoke, etc.
Smoke would be hilariously bad, 'cause aliens can see through smoke. :P
Scan grenades, however, might be cool. Scans at half the range of a commander scan, does no damage. Sometimes I have extra PRES and I want to help mitigate the use of TRES.
Not if it were NANITE SMOKE. aliens cant see though NANITES!
How about instead of a grenade you get a sticky flare?
Chuck it, it puts out light, chuck it at an alien building, it burns it for damage over time while you axe it to death. Manage to catch an alien with it, it does the same thing, though it'd be hard to do on anything but an onos.
Less annoying for players than exploding grenades and not spammable, still very useful. More skill based too I think given that if you can catch aliens with a slow moving projectile and get a nice chunk of damage for it, that'd be more interesting than normal grenades.
Aliens and vents are meant to be the bane of marines and drive them to research JP's or GL's.
Having grenades simply removes this need and we wont see GL's researched.
I think the real issue is that people dont like using the GL as it leaves them exposed to an alien melee, so want a way to have the benefit of the GL with the killing power of the LMG.
This will be a huge balance issue as was the underslung GL.
If a extractor hugging skulks an issue for you...buy some bloody mines and put them around the extractor.
Will stop the skulk dancing around it, either that or learn to shoot.
Every weakness of early game marines does not need to be removed from teh game...if you have to leave 1 marine to defend your base it is not that different to the gorge or skulks aliens need to leave to defend their hive.
Marines dont get grenades, they research GL's or JP's with the former not requiring 2 tech points but 1 so is able to be researched even if marines only have 1 base.
Comments
If there is a strong desire for a marine-standard explosive, I'd prefer something like a throwable detpack (e.g. left-click to throw, right-click to detonate). Its requires more precision and less prone to spam.
They need to make the mechanics work somewhat well at different playercounts. Many of the big changes from NS1 (e.g. alien khamm, PRes/TRes, etc) we're made to help balance scale better with playercount. Its obviously not perfect right now so I'm hesitant adding additional elements that are not likely to scale very well either.
Don't forget to write.
all we get is buffs to marines and nerfs to aliens, as if aliens didnt have a hard enough time in pubs
The aliens get too much already, they are clearly favoured over the marines.
Smoke would be hilariously bad, 'cause aliens can see through smoke. :P
Scan grenades, however, might be cool. Scans at half the range of a commander scan, does no damage. Sometimes I have extra PRES and I want to help mitigate the use of TRES.
Capping or requiring rebuying via PRes may work, but then it becomes less intuitive. "Why can I get rifle/pistol but not grenade ammo from armories/ammopacks?" for example. Best just to avoid the whole mess in the first place imo.
Would it not be easier to just make it so that marines can shoot skulks hiding behind extractors more easily?
Grenades introduce a slew of balance concerns when they're used for anything but protecting RTs, and hell, killing RTs is the main alien tactic, so even that's going to seriously mess with the balance.
If they're easily available they're going to be annoying, if they're not easily available why bother wasting money on them instead of a GL?
Even better, not seeing the smoke while they choke inside helps
Instead of pure explosive, how about EMP shock grenade?
- On impact with a surface or player, the grenade emits an EMP field (drains # energy/sec) for several seconds
- On impact with a friendly building, building emits EMP field for several seconds (make the effect look like Electrify for maximum nostalgia)
Won't do much if you don't shoot, but does cripple aliens that hide behind RTs!
Rename that to tazer grenade and switch effects to match.
It seems odd that EMPs are more effective against the squishy aliens than marine technology.
yay!
What?
Sorry but you have to be having a lend of us.
Marines have trouble holding res towers? If you can get in range to throw a grenade you can shoot that skulk.
This is the worst reason I have heard of as to why they are needed, its hard enough for aliens to take down extractors.
The number of times I have tried to avoid a marine whilst taking out an extractor is huge...my success rate not so.
If its a problem for the marine then they need to learn to shoot, sorry but you can see the skulk model when its munching...the fact that being shot in the foot does as much damage as a body shot makes the task even easier.
This just removes any chance aliens have of hiding in vents in teh small window before either JP's or GL's are researched.
Aliens are meant to hide in vents, around corners etc...allowing grenades will simply make either of these harder.
I seriously wonder at times if UWE are adding things based on need and balance basis or a whim....it seems the later.
Marines can already get into almost every vent on maps even before jp's are researched.
This is right up there with the GL attachment for the LMG as far as bad ideas goes.
"When you can't aim, throw a grenade"
Granades 5 res = 1 explosion
But mines cost 15 to research, maby granades would go for 15 aswell so its not availible from start to prevent spam?
or even have 10 res for 1 granade, otherwise every harvester takedown will involve 3 people dropping a nade each on it and they will go down in matter of seconds when they start shooting it. so building a harvester takes longer time to get it up and running than killing it. that would fuck up the alien economy so maby make the granades availible only when marines got 2 or even 3 bases so it will be something used in later games where you already have jetpack/shotgunners flying in and taking out harvesters in matter of seconds. this just give you more options to choose from and is not overpowered if you balence it correctly.
I think if grenades return it will most likely not be an anti-structure weapon anyway, but more of a counter to pesky vent gorges, base rushes and extractor hugging skulks. And one can always tweak the values to make sure it's not easily spammable (res costs, carry limit) and not too strong (damage/radius/timer values). But it should definitely be available for research on one CC.
Not if it were NANITE SMOKE. aliens cant see though NANITES!
Chuck it, it puts out light, chuck it at an alien building, it burns it for damage over time while you axe it to death. Manage to catch an alien with it, it does the same thing, though it'd be hard to do on anything but an onos.
Less annoying for players than exploding grenades and not spammable, still very useful. More skill based too I think given that if you can catch aliens with a slow moving projectile and get a nice chunk of damage for it, that'd be more interesting than normal grenades.
Having grenades simply removes this need and we wont see GL's researched.
I think the real issue is that people dont like using the GL as it leaves them exposed to an alien melee, so want a way to have the benefit of the GL with the killing power of the LMG.
This will be a huge balance issue as was the underslung GL.
If a extractor hugging skulks an issue for you...buy some bloody mines and put them around the extractor.
Will stop the skulk dancing around it, either that or learn to shoot.
Every weakness of early game marines does not need to be removed from teh game...if you have to leave 1 marine to defend your base it is not that different to the gorge or skulks aliens need to leave to defend their hive.
Marines dont get grenades, they research GL's or JP's with the former not requiring 2 tech points but 1 so is able to be researched even if marines only have 1 base.