Arc's definitely need to be nerfed.
despair
Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165746Members
Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165746Members
arcs are OP, no way anyone can refute that. too many times we had great games where it's a back and forth war only for arcs to show up and down a hive
bile you say? with decent marines guarding the arcs, no arcs should die
arcs ruins the game
bile you say? with decent marines guarding the arcs, no arcs should die
arcs ruins the game
Comments
Maybe some kind of ARC battery?
In another universe you're complaining about how comms put 10 sentries in one room.
Although 3 per room might be too restrictive, it does need limitation. I remember the endless turtles with armory walls and like a dozen sentries in shipping. WE COULD NOT BE BROKEN! That was before all these 24+ player servers too.
What other res sink do marines have besides arcs? Do marines need a res sink?
Its not so much an issue of res sinks. Both teams have res sinks, and quite a few of them.
Aliens have life form eggs, whips, crags, shades, shifts, drifters, enzyme clouds.
Marines have weapons, jetpacks, ARCs, MACs, blockades, medpacks, nanoshields.
The problem with ARCs is their ability to critical mass. You can't critical mass whips because of the infestation and cyst restriction associated with them. That is to say that, even with 1000 whips, all the marines have to do is kill one cyst and you counter it all. No critical mass.
ARCs, on the other hand, need nothing to move, attack, or do anything. ARCs because ARCs. If you build 1000 ARCs the alien team simply won't be able to stop you. There will be absolutely nothing that they can do. An extreme example, of course, but it highlights a mechanical flaw.
A restriction on concentrated ARC numbers will accomplish the following:
No more critical massing
No more brute force brainless strategy
More finesse required to ARC locations
Slow, less instant hive deaths which can actually be defended against
A purpose for gorges during a siege, other than throwing themselves against the defending marines
The opportunity for counter attack against something other than the ARC train
In NS1 the primary benefit of the siege cannon was that it shot through walls. It still took a lengthy amount of time to down a hive, but the marines didn't have to run into a heavily infested area.
In NS2, the primary benefit of ARCs is that they kill hives incredibly quickly. This is demonstrated by the fact that I personally will frequently ARC out a hive room from inside the hive room.
Bring back the slow siege.
You could not simply built 5+ arcs in your spawn and walk them to a siege location.
You had to hold a location and build the sieges and PG's etc.
The lack of mobility justified their ability to shoot through a wall.
Now in NS2 they are mobile and it has been suggested on many occasions (esp during beta before exo's) that they be forced to have LOS or lose their mobility.
I still think this is needed, after all whips need infestation to work...arcs dont even need powered rooms.
With the current ARCs I would say that I prefer LOS over making them static because I like the ARC models and would hate to lose them (static ARCs don't need wheels).
The way hakenspit puts it, I can understand arcs being OP.
The only problem with ARCs right now is that Marines can easily get 2-4 of them out within the first 5 minutes of the game
A window that is well before Aliens can usually secure Bile Bomb
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Neoken:
What limit would you purpose. . . 3 per Command Chair?
I don't think anyone would build them if you ever set it lower
I know you'd still build them.
But yeah, 3 arcs per cc actually seems reasonable to me.
3 is too possibly too many, with current stats 2 might be about right (4 with 2 CC's).
Any lower you would need to buff them....any higher and you dont redress the stacking ability.
Considering crags now only stack to 3...I dont see why arcs should endlessly stack.
I have seen other suggestion in the past about reducing their damage based on teh number in field.
This strikes me as a little clunky but would allow for say 10 arcs...that do the same damage as 3 arcs.
But aliens would need to take down 8 to reduce the damage output.
(the max damage was for illustration purposes (not sure 3 is right number))
I haven't ever really understood this argument many people use, that ARCs don't require a forward base like NS1 sieges did. If you roll your ARCs into a hive-killing position without a forward phase gate and the aliens manage to kill all the marines at that spot, the ARCs are more often than not as good as dead, bile bomb or not. Just like in NS1, except that in NS1 you could always sell the sieges and get some of your investment back.
I do agree that a cap on the amount of ARCs, somewhere between 3-5 per CC wouldn't really hurt the game but would put a stop to these threads.
Not really, since that would make the investment a default. With Multiple ARCs needed, you can use different amounts to accomplish different goals. For example ARCing Nanogrid at the start of the game with just 1 or 2 ARCs, but needing 4 or more to clear a heavily guarded hive room.
In that respect, two per tech point seems like a sweet spot.
I also miss sieges being done with turrets that took forever to build and had to be defended while the aliens came at you in desperate waves, but I doubt we'll see a return to that.
If a comm is investing in ARCs they're not investing in other things like upgrades, JPs or Exos. They're one of the few strategic opportunities in the game. In most games it's either ARCs or JPs or Exos, depending on how fast you want to kill the hive.
ARCs aren't impossible to defend against. Good crag placement and shade placement can help a ton (though Ink is a little wonky, IMO the arc shouldn't be able to shoot without seeing the stuff as it takes the shot). Its very possible to keep one half or the other of Nano alive with good crag placement. It all depends on where the marines are arcing from.
Furthermore, Bile bomb eats arcs like nobody's business.
So no, I don't want to see anything like a limit be added to ARCs. They are supposed to be a bit of rain on your parade. Should we limit shotguns for being able to one-shot skulks? I suppose we should limit the number of Dual Exos a team can get too?
I miss this too; it was an exciting, tense time in the game. By comparison ARCs are rather ho-hum.
1. if they rush arcs and you're doing a average job killing rts you can bet they have next to none upgrades. so killing marines shouldn't be to hard considering you should have lerks/gorges/skulks.
2. if arcs are midgame then you will have fades, lerks, skulks killing/protecting the gorges while biling. Droping what 10-12 biles and 3 arcs are dead.
i do not see your issue?
People need to look into what lead up to the loss, not whinging like a girl because they knew arcs were coming fast and didnt get bilebomb or set up to prevent them coming in.
+1.
Nurfing game ending maneuvers is only going to make games last that much longer. Pubs will be stomped and competitive matches will be decided within the first few major encounters (though I'm all for the turnarounds.)
Not sure how many other people have bothered, but I've managed to bitch-slap a pub commander; Countering his arc push with only a couple of inking shades by the hive. Interrupting the arcs firing only a few times puts them back so much, and with the sound of a screaming hive even a pub knows when to rally.
Or even if you're not scouting, a good Alien Comm will notice that Marine upgrades and researches in other areas has halted as all their res is being pumped in to building arcs.
But yeah, I agree that there should be a limit on the number of ARCs. People might say then that you need a limit on Whips as well, but in fact they are not all that comparable. Whips are a mix of Sentries and offensive unit, except that they are not as lethal against bases as ARCs, can be stopped instantly by killing off the infestation and are easier to avoid by marines when used defensively if there was a global or per-room limit of them.
I don't care if they took every res node on the map and shipped in nanites from off planet.
It should never happen.
Sexist much?
Long story short: aliens have a good counter to arcs, but map designers need to be sensitive to arc range.
If you let the marines tech up to ARCs, roll them down from main base (or even worse, build the factory right next to your hive in an adjacent room), and set up shop with no forewarning (drifters) or coordinated resistance...then your team deserves to lose.
I can probably use your flawed balance logic on a lot of other things besides ARCs:
- self-building alien structures are OP! The alien comm can grab most of the map while his team is fully focused on killing the marines and their structures!! alien structures ruin the game
- shotguns are OP! A 30 res lerk can be basically one shotted by a shotgun that can be recycled by marine team mates! shotguns ruin the game
- a good fade is OP! You can barely hit him, let alone kill him, and he can solo groups of marines just by hit and run! fades ruin the game
- spores ignore armor, blind marines and are available fairly early in the game! spores ruin the game
- phase gates give an unfair advantage to marines! They can teleport anywhere on the map in like one second! PGs ruin the game.
Do us a favor and think about what you're going to say before you spew it.