Game design prevents both sides from coming back, even if Res For Kills was implemented the HMG equivalent is tied to 2 CC and can't phase while blinkless fades are worthless against W3 SG/any exo, these are the things that gave any team a come back chance in NS1.
Game design prevents both sides from coming back, .....
NS2 game design does not prevent come backs, as I've had come back games before. However, the game design DOES make it more difficult to come back, but not impossible.
Like others have pointed out, vote concede does more good than it does harm. It's not perfect, but nothing will ever be. If you really don't want people to concede in your game, let them know why. Give them some hope to go on.
OP doesn't realize that even with out concede this will still happen. I've played NS1-NS2 for quite a bit a time, I wont sit in a game that has no hope and keep playing I want to start over and try again.
If no one is competent enough to see when a game is lose I simply just leave and find a new server to play on, its that simple to find a new server. Sounds like people are just mad because they can't force other people to do what they want them to.
It is a pretty good idea to limit concede for teams that have more than one tech point, if own more than 1, no vote can happen.
That just limits aliens ability to concede a game...marines with 1 tech point can still have armour 3 and weapons 3, about all they cant get are exo's and JP's (cant remember if arcs need 2 points or not).
If it wasn't for Concede people would just mass F4. So how about we stop complaining about a simple tool and focus on addressing the ACTUAL problem instead. Here's the actual problem:
- Often it's very easy early on to see which side is going to win, this is because in NS 2 due to the short early game there is very little room for error. A team that has a bad side will have a very hard if not impossible time getting back in the game. Aliens arguably have a better chance at this than marines though, UNLESS they don't even have a second hive. Then for aliens it's almost always a GG too.
- Very little room for comebacks in general, it's night impossible for aliens to do anything if they fall back on 1 hive as they lose pretty much all of their progress. (leap, bb, bink, etc)
- It's simply not fun to play against a team that is clearly snowballing to victory. Skulk play becomes EXTREMELY frustrating as the game progresses (vs exos, jps and sgs in particular), even more so when nobody on your team is a higher lifeform and you're basically just all cannon fodder waiting for the inevitable.
I'll admit it's no fun never getting to kill that final hive or CC because the other side recognises their loss and wants to speed things up but I still see plenty of games end without concedes.
If you really want to increase the appearance of comebacks (and I think this would be good for the game) you need something that slows down the res-income of the dominating team. Just enough so it remains an advantage to have more RTs than the enemy.
Something like an upkeep you have to pay for every cyst / power node. Or an upkeep per RT.
Right now every RT is +1 t-res every 7 seconds. This means, that you can gain an extreme advantage in the early game, just by holding substantial more RTs than your enemy for a short time. The more time you can hold this advantage, the faster you increase the t-res advantage to your enemy. That's what causes the snowballing and early decided games.
If every additional RT would give you a smaller part of 1 t-res per 7 seconds, it would not devalue the incentive to get more RTs than your enemy. But it would decrease the speed in which the advantage increases.
If you lose your 2nd base the right response is an immediate all out assault on an enemy base. It will either work or you lose rather quickly.
any reasonable team will already attempt to do this...
i don't know about you, but on some servers (i've always thought it's more of a european language barrier thing) noone has the balls to communicate with mic. i usually avoid these servers, but when my fav's are full i'm sometimes left with no option. i find myself talking to myself in a server, with incompetent teammates and a mute commander.
please try to do your 'all out rush' on one of those servers and see how it works out for you.
Having played NS2 before any form of concede was implemented, I can tell you its a vast improvement. Long, drawn out matches would frequently deplete or empty servers (as people on the losing side would simply leave). These type of 'fight to the last man' matches we're more often exhausting than exciting.
However, I will say that the implementation of concede could be improved. Many players prefer the psychological reward of ending a match by killing all of their opponent's players or structures. If concede worked like comm recycling (e.g. no upgrades, resources, spawning, buying stuff, etc), I think it would have the same effect (ending a match quickly) without the unsatisfying 'You win' banner.
It's an improvement only in partially preventing those long games. It's a mistake in prematurely ending nearly every other game.
The issue with conceding is not denying certain players their total and complete 'kill-everything' victory, the problem with concede is putting, exclusively, the power to concede in the hands of players who in general have too much ego, where a losing game is a painful experience thanks mostly to their arrogance and pride. Not attributes i care to encourage in the self-entitled.
This is not to say concede is a bad idea, just given NS2s player demographic, and it's current implementation, it is causing more discourse then preventing.
The alien team needs concede. I can have fun both being and attacking turtling, 1 CC marines. Everyone can fight, you may be losing but you can put up a fight, and exciting stuff is happening--Even if you're meta-losing, you still just blasted that skulk in the face with a shotgun; you can still lure that overly, kill thirtsy fade in to a mine trap; you can still get enjoyable, personal victories.
Defending as 1 CC aliens though is mirthless, you have no bile bomb, leap nor blink; you've [probably] only got one set of upgrades left; if you evolve to anything other than a skulk your egg is getting violently scrambled, so you can't actually defend the hive. That last five minutes of play can be 30 seconds of playing and 4:30 mins waiting, and watching you're own inevitable failure.
My life is bad enough as it is, if i have to spend 4 minutes and 30 whole, standard English seconds watching myself fail I'm just gonna quit the game entirely and smoke and lose hair and get fret wrinkles. As sucky as winning by concede can be, it's really a good idea that it's there.
I think they should remove concede, not sure if anyone agrees with me but the other team conceding kind of ruins the sense of achievement taking out the final hive/command station. Sometimes you can be half way through a great game and the enemy will concede at which point you think what the hell was the point in playing up until now.
At least with F4 the game continues and allows your team to feel some sense of achievement taking down the final hive/command station even if the other team does have 1 or 2 players left on it.
I'm sure people will disagree but that's my take on it.
Conceding is the stupidest idea ever! People already have the ability to F4 back into the Ready Room if their panties are in a bunch... why make it even easier for them to quit?
/finds "as usual" another thread bitching about something everyone pleaded for and got.
Concede helps to make sure the server doesn't empty from rage quitting. A fresh start with possibly randomized teams is this 'GENIUS' you speak of.
Seriously, this thread has got to be a great example of not having enough gameplay hours to respect a needed mechanic. You can't keep people from quitting but you can increase the likely hood that they will stay. It's sad that people are to whiny to see that.
Conceding is the stupidest idea ever! People already have the ability to F4 back into the Ready Room if their panties are in a bunch... why make it even easier for them to quit?
/finds "as usual" another thread bitching about something everyone pleaded for and got.
Concede helps to make sure the server doesn't empty from rage quitting. A fresh start with possibly randomized teams is this 'GENIUS' you speak of.
Seriously, this thread has got to be a great example of not having enough gameplay hours to respect a needed mechanic. You can't keep people from quitting but you can increase the likely hood that they will stay. It's sad that people are to whiny to see that.
Concede is fine as long as it is not abused. There were a lot of rounds I played where aliens would just toy with the marines at the last CP not ending the game when they could have.
Concede is fine as long as it is not abused. There were a lot of rounds I played where aliens would just toy with the marines at the last CP not ending the game when they could have.
Sometimes those games don't boil down so much to aliens 'toying' with marines, sometimes they just don't have the coordination required for the final push against a very strong marine turtle (eg atrium or flight control on summit can be complete turtlefests that require even more coordination than normal turtle-breaking). In my view this is a symptom of two things: 1) aliens lacking a *really* effective end-game siege tech and 2) marines enjoying a turtle not conceding even though they stand 0% chance of winning the game. Fixing point 1 will automatically render point 2 fixed in my view.
I think that a far more even early and mid game should be the norm, but once a team has established the upper hand for a few minutes, the game ending tech can come into play that escalates very quickly to a victory. I'd really like to see lower gains from the first, say 5 RTs such that the gap between teams in the early to mid game isn't so large, allowing for more tactical errors and the odd lost encounter to not completely dictate the outcome of the entire game. When one game can sustain their advantage, though, they need to be able to reap the rewards, and to do so swiftly.
How you achieve that is quite another matter entirely, and I'm still thinking of ways this might be doable. One option could be to change the resource input from linear (res gained vs RTs held) to some sort of exponential function, where res gained is lower than current for the first 4-5 resource points, but rapidly increases beyond this (ie rewarding total map control, but not exaggerating the difference between 1 team holding 4 RTs vs the other holding 3).
There are almost certainly better ways of addressing this, but this is one possible solution.
In fact while I think about it, you could have the number of resources that an RT pumps out start small and increase over time (perhaps up to a maximum?). That might, however, exacerbate the current RT-centric focus of the game too much. But what it would do is allow a team that successfully defends several RTs over a period of time to reap the rewards in the longer term: attack would still be as important as it is now, but defending your core RTs would be vital to maintain their higher resource gather rate. Not sure about this one.
If you lose your 2nd base the right response is an immediate all out assault on an enemy base. It will either work or you lose rather quickly.
any reasonable team will already attempt to do this...
i don't know about you, but on some servers (i've always thought it's more of a european language barrier thing) noone has the balls to communicate with mic. i usually avoid these servers, but when my fav's are full i'm sometimes left with no option. i find myself talking to myself in a server, with incompetent teammates and a mute commander.
please try to do your 'all out rush' on one of those servers and see how it works out for you.
I've done it and won. I've done it and lost.
I usually suggest the blaze of glory path if I know things are hopeless. It's more fun than concede and turtling, and may win the game.
I think it really is a socialization issue. I'm just tired of people calling for concede after losing an RT or their shotgun.
Make concede a server option, with customizable availability based on certain parameters (time into game, number of techpoints etc). That way if people want a no-concede server, or a server where concede is available from the getgo, they can join one.
Remove F4 completely. Leave the ready room only for connecting users and new maps/games. At the moment F4 is just a way for people to circumvent a majority vote that has failed.
Seriously. Why would you assist players in quitting. I don't think I have EVER truly finished a game since the Concede option was implemented. I also lost count of how many times Aliens quit with 2 hives, just because, for the last 3 minutes, things haven't been going their way. All it takes is 1-2 proficient players to join a losing team to change things around. Or, I don't know, a base-rush to work?
Conceding is the stupidest idea ever! People already have the ability to F4 back into the Ready Room if their panties are in a bunch... why make it even easier for them to quit?
Oh look, another masochist that spanks himself and cackles while the enemy team destroys him over and over.
Seriously. Why would you assist players in quitting. I don't think I have EVER truly finished a game since the Concede option was implemented. I also lost count of how many times Aliens quit with 2 hives, just because, for the last 3 minutes, things haven't been going their way. All it takes is 1-2 proficient players to join a losing team to change things around. Or, I don't know, a base-rush to work?
Conceding is the stupidest idea ever! People already have the ability to F4 back into the Ready Room if their panties are in a bunch... why make it even easier for them to quit?
Oh look, another masochist that spanks himself and cackles while the enemy team destroys him over and over.
Conceding is the stupidest idea ever! People already have the ability to F4 back into the Ready Room if their panties are in a bunch... why make it even easier for them to quit?
/finds "as usual" another thread bitching about something everyone pleaded for and got.
Concede helps to make sure the server doesn't empty from rage quitting. A fresh start with possibly randomized teams is this 'GENIUS' you speak of.
Seriously, this thread has got to be a great example of not having enough gameplay hours to respect a needed mechanic. You can't keep people from quitting but you can increase the likely hood that they will stay. It's sad that people are to whiny to see that.
Conceding is the stupidest idea ever! People already have the ability to F4 back into the Ready Room if their panties are in a bunch... why make it even easier for them to quit?
/finds "as usual" another thread bitching about something everyone pleaded for and got.
Concede helps to make sure the server doesn't empty from rage quitting. A fresh start with possibly randomized teams is this 'GENIUS' you speak of.
Seriously, this thread has got to be a great example of not having enough gameplay hours to respect a needed mechanic. You can't keep people from quitting but you can increase the likely hood that they will stay. It's sad that people are to whiny to see that.
How many hours do you have?
184 hrs so far
You're talking to many people with more than 4 times your experience. Many with even more.
Odd you would tell people they haven't played the game enough.
Conceding is the stupidest idea ever! People already have the ability to F4 back into the Ready Room if their panties are in a bunch... why make it even easier for them to quit?
/finds "as usual" another thread bitching about something everyone pleaded for and got.
Concede helps to make sure the server doesn't empty from rage quitting. A fresh start with possibly randomized teams is this 'GENIUS' you speak of.
Seriously, this thread has got to be a great example of not having enough gameplay hours to respect a needed mechanic. You can't keep people from quitting but you can increase the likely hood that they will stay. It's sad that people are to whiny to see that.
How many hours do you have?
184 hrs so far
You're talking to many people with more than 4 times your experience. Many with even more.
Odd you would tell people they haven't played the game enough.
The point is playing before concede was implemented. You're the one that asked for my hours, and of course there are more ppl (especially on the forums) with more hours. It's childish to whine about a function that operates exactly like it should. Use your brain and stop looking for opportunies to have a pissing match over things.
Conceding is the stupidest idea ever! People already have the ability to F4 back into the Ready Room if their panties are in a bunch... why make it even easier for them to quit?
/finds "as usual" another thread bitching about something everyone pleaded for and got.
Concede helps to make sure the server doesn't empty from rage quitting. A fresh start with possibly randomized teams is this 'GENIUS' you speak of.
Seriously, this thread has got to be a great example of not having enough gameplay hours to respect a needed mechanic. You can't keep people from quitting but you can increase the likely hood that they will stay. It's sad that people are to whiny to see that.
How many hours do you have?
184 hrs so far
You're talking to many people with more than 4 times your experience. Many with even more.
Odd you would tell people they haven't played the game enough.
The point is playing before concede was implemented. You're the one that asked for my hours, and of course there are more ppl (especially on the forums) with more hours. It's childish to whine about a function that operates exactly like it should. Use your brain and stop looking for opportunies to have a pissing match over things.
...You originally made the play time hours comment...
In a very negative fashion as well, just like how you responded to me...
I'd advise you to take your own 'brain' advice. Use it.
Edit: thanks for the abuse tag, it clearly applies
On top of this, it isn't fun to play out an already lost game when you have done this already many times.
I would like to point out that new players see seasoned players claiming futility before they get to experience it first hand. I think that's bad for the game.
Personally, if I'm in a game where either team concedes unnecessarily, I find a new server right then.
On top of this, it isn't fun to play out an already lost game when you have done this already many times.
I would like to point out that new players see seasoned players claiming futility before they get to experience it first hand. I think that's bad for the game.
Personally, if I'm in a game where either team concedes unnecessarily, I find a new server right then.
Im guilty of telling rookies when its over. However, if I think there's any chance, I keep playing. Yet, also, it's really easy to tell when it is over, and if it is early on, that really must look bad to new players. I've stopped playing NS2 for the most part just because most of the time I can call a game, and there's no fun when you know the outcome. This is something that needs to be fixed way before anything else.
It's an improvement only in partially preventing those long games. It's a mistake in prematurely ending nearly every other game.
The issue with conceding is not denying certain players their total and complete 'kill-everything' victory, the problem with concede is putting, exclusively, the power to concede in the hands of players who in general have too much ego, where a losing game is a painful experience thanks mostly to their arrogance and pride. Not attributes i care to encourage in the self-entitled.
This is not to say concede is a bad idea, just given NS2s player demographic, and it's current implementation, it is causing more discourse then preventing.
I wish I had stats on the number of matches ended via concede, but I suspect with the new 10min timer that few winnable matches are being prematurely conceded. The majority of cases I see are situations where the aliens or marine team is down to one base at like the 15-20min mark.
Also, its not egotistical to want to end a match that's effectively over. Ideally, the game would end when the winning conditions were achieved, but the nature of RTS and RTS-hybrid games makes it such that there can be a considerable time lag between the two. Conceding is a well-known mechanic used to get around that problem.
My 2 cents: I like vote concede, because while comebacks can be great, most of the time it doesn't happen. Most of the time, the game gets boringly drawn out to an inevitable conclusion. And I like making the game more fun _most_ of the time.
Comments
Concede is a necessary evil.
NS2 game design does not prevent come backs, as I've had come back games before. However, the game design DOES make it more difficult to come back, but not impossible.
If you lose your 2nd base the right response is an immediate all out assault on an enemy base. It will either work or you lose rather quickly.
If no one is competent enough to see when a game is lose I simply just leave and find a new server to play on, its that simple to find a new server. Sounds like people are just mad because they can't force other people to do what they want them to.
- Often it's very easy early on to see which side is going to win, this is because in NS 2 due to the short early game there is very little room for error. A team that has a bad side will have a very hard if not impossible time getting back in the game. Aliens arguably have a better chance at this than marines though, UNLESS they don't even have a second hive. Then for aliens it's almost always a GG too.
- Very little room for comebacks in general, it's night impossible for aliens to do anything if they fall back on 1 hive as they lose pretty much all of their progress. (leap, bb, bink, etc)
- It's simply not fun to play against a team that is clearly snowballing to victory. Skulk play becomes EXTREMELY frustrating as the game progresses (vs exos, jps and sgs in particular), even more so when nobody on your team is a higher lifeform and you're basically just all cannon fodder waiting for the inevitable.
I'll admit it's no fun never getting to kill that final hive or CC because the other side recognises their loss and wants to speed things up but I still see plenty of games end without concedes.
Something like an upkeep you have to pay for every cyst / power node. Or an upkeep per RT.
Right now every RT is +1 t-res every 7 seconds. This means, that you can gain an extreme advantage in the early game, just by holding substantial more RTs than your enemy for a short time. The more time you can hold this advantage, the faster you increase the t-res advantage to your enemy. That's what causes the snowballing and early decided games.
If every additional RT would give you a smaller part of 1 t-res per 7 seconds, it would not devalue the incentive to get more RTs than your enemy. But it would decrease the speed in which the advantage increases.
any reasonable team will already attempt to do this...
i don't know about you, but on some servers (i've always thought it's more of a european language barrier thing) noone has the balls to communicate with mic. i usually avoid these servers, but when my fav's are full i'm sometimes left with no option. i find myself talking to myself in a server, with incompetent teammates and a mute commander.
please try to do your 'all out rush' on one of those servers and see how it works out for you.
It's an improvement only in partially preventing those long games. It's a mistake in prematurely ending nearly every other game.
The issue with conceding is not denying certain players their total and complete 'kill-everything' victory, the problem with concede is putting, exclusively, the power to concede in the hands of players who in general have too much ego, where a losing game is a painful experience thanks mostly to their arrogance and pride. Not attributes i care to encourage in the self-entitled.
This is not to say concede is a bad idea, just given NS2s player demographic, and it's current implementation, it is causing more discourse then preventing.
Defending as 1 CC aliens though is mirthless, you have no bile bomb, leap nor blink; you've [probably] only got one set of upgrades left; if you evolve to anything other than a skulk your egg is getting violently scrambled, so you can't actually defend the hive. That last five minutes of play can be 30 seconds of playing and 4:30 mins waiting, and watching you're own inevitable failure.
My life is bad enough as it is, if i have to spend 4 minutes and 30 whole, standard English seconds watching myself fail I'm just gonna quit the game entirely and smoke and lose hair and get fret wrinkles. As sucky as winning by concede can be, it's really a good idea that it's there.
At least with F4 the game continues and allows your team to feel some sense of achievement taking down the final hive/command station even if the other team does have 1 or 2 players left on it.
I'm sure people will disagree but that's my take on it.
/finds "as usual" another thread bitching about something everyone pleaded for and got.
Concede helps to make sure the server doesn't empty from rage quitting. A fresh start with possibly randomized teams is this 'GENIUS' you speak of.
Seriously, this thread has got to be a great example of not having enough gameplay hours to respect a needed mechanic. You can't keep people from quitting but you can increase the likely hood that they will stay. It's sad that people are to whiny to see that.
How many hours do you have?
I think that a far more even early and mid game should be the norm, but once a team has established the upper hand for a few minutes, the game ending tech can come into play that escalates very quickly to a victory. I'd really like to see lower gains from the first, say 5 RTs such that the gap between teams in the early to mid game isn't so large, allowing for more tactical errors and the odd lost encounter to not completely dictate the outcome of the entire game. When one game can sustain their advantage, though, they need to be able to reap the rewards, and to do so swiftly.
How you achieve that is quite another matter entirely, and I'm still thinking of ways this might be doable. One option could be to change the resource input from linear (res gained vs RTs held) to some sort of exponential function, where res gained is lower than current for the first 4-5 resource points, but rapidly increases beyond this (ie rewarding total map control, but not exaggerating the difference between 1 team holding 4 RTs vs the other holding 3).
There are almost certainly better ways of addressing this, but this is one possible solution.
Roo
I've done it and won. I've done it and lost.
I usually suggest the blaze of glory path if I know things are hopeless. It's more fun than concede and turtling, and may win the game.
I think it really is a socialization issue. I'm just tired of people calling for concede after losing an RT or their shotgun.
Remove F4 completely. Leave the ready room only for connecting users and new maps/games. At the moment F4 is just a way for people to circumvent a majority vote that has failed.
Oh look, another masochist that spanks himself and cackles while the enemy team destroys him over and over.
How about we fix the illness and not the symptom.
Human nature?
184 hrs so far
You're talking to many people with more than 4 times your experience. Many with even more.
Odd you would tell people they haven't played the game enough.
The point is playing before concede was implemented. You're the one that asked for my hours, and of course there are more ppl (especially on the forums) with more hours. It's childish to whine about a function that operates exactly like it should. Use your brain and stop looking for opportunies to have a pissing match over things.
...You originally made the play time hours comment...
In a very negative fashion as well, just like how you responded to me...
I'd advise you to take your own 'brain' advice. Use it.
Edit: thanks for the abuse tag, it clearly applies
I would like to point out that new players see seasoned players claiming futility before they get to experience it first hand. I think that's bad for the game.
Personally, if I'm in a game where either team concedes unnecessarily, I find a new server right then.
Im guilty of telling rookies when its over. However, if I think there's any chance, I keep playing. Yet, also, it's really easy to tell when it is over, and if it is early on, that really must look bad to new players. I've stopped playing NS2 for the most part just because most of the time I can call a game, and there's no fun when you know the outcome. This is something that needs to be fixed way before anything else.
Also, its not egotistical to want to end a match that's effectively over. Ideally, the game would end when the winning conditions were achieved, but the nature of RTS and RTS-hybrid games makes it such that there can be a considerable time lag between the two. Conceding is a well-known mechanic used to get around that problem.
It doesn't happen because you're a quitter.