if any decent marine had been killed by any of those skulks, they would be raging hard... i mean just cavorting towards a marine with full hp and a full LMG clip speaks volumes for the mindset and/or skill discrepancy.
if marines couldn't beat that lame crap, the game would suck.
(quoted because the video is relevant)
Yep, I agree. The main thing is though, is that despite the skill levels of the skulks in the video, the ability to jump and juke was needed to win when outnumbered in a situation like that. No jumping in that video = no living.
Remember, my stance in this thread is that marine movement is fine, and that skulks probably need a slight bump up for their ground acceleration. Things just got derailed a bit when Savant unsuccessfully tried to contest it being useful at all. Thankfully, things are somewhat more on track now.
You call that low fps james? That video shows much smoother gameplay than my computer
Oof. Coming from a competitive FPS background, any FPS that isn't a steady 120 FPS feels bad to me. Playing with dips into the 30s in that video was groan inducing - I can't imagine how people play with worse fps on a regular basis.
Aha, I wish my fps was just dipping into 30 fps now and then, it's normally not much above it. When I get off freelance and into a fulltime position im blowing the entire first paycheck on a new PC, screw food.
Remember, my stance in this thread is that marine movement is fine, and that skulks probably need a slight bump up for their ground acceleration.
I think thats pretty much it. Leave marine movement as is, give the skulk a little buff to acceleration so they can keep up with the quick directional changes a marine can make in close combat.
Playing with dips into the 30s in that video was groan inducing - I can't imagine how people play with worse fps on a regular basis.
They get used to it. Adapt. Just like the higher pingers (in past games) who learned to calculate their shots ahead of time, to stay competitive.
It is absurd to consider Marine hopping pointless. JAMES video shows it benefits.
It's equally absurd to assume there is an absolute "right" way to play, in my opinion. NS2's young, with a growing player base, with more balance and performance patches coming.
On-topic- Marine hopping looks worse because of the changes to skulks. If Marines couldn't hop, they'd strafe more; which can be nearly as effective against average players. In that situation, most skulks might still have a rough time landing a few clean hits, before the Marine kills them.
The problems not Marines, in my opinion. However, if Skulks are kept in their current state (before Leap), Marine jumping would likely need to be changed. I wouldn't want this.
Oof. Coming from a competitive FPS background, any FPS that isn't a steady 120 FPS feels bad to me. Playing with dips into the 30s in that video was groan inducing - I can't imagine how people play with worse fps on a regular basis.
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I want to stab you in the eye.120 fps.Is that even possible ? Isn´t the limit like 60 ?Do you have money coming out of your ass, that you can get a stable computer to do that for years or every couple of years ? I mean fuck me.
I can only play with 35 fps.And when a gorge spits on me, I get 5 fps.Granted I am using an old computer, that has been in constant use since 2008, but even then if I get a more up to date one, I can maybe get 50.Seriously how the fuck is 120 even a possibilty ?
This is the reason I scream and insult everyone in a server.I get killed by assholes, who have a kdr of 30/3.And then people say I can´t aim(before the current hit reg fixes mind you).I want to murder them. I really really do.Hope their families get raped while they watch.
I want to stab you in the eye.120 fps.Is that even possible ? Isn´t the limit like 60 ?Do you have money coming out of your ass, that you can get a stable computer to do that for years or every couple of years ? I mean fuck me.
I can only play with 35 fps.And when a gorge spits on me, I get 5 fps.Granted I am using an old computer, that has been in constant use since 2008, but even then if I get a more up to date one, I can maybe get 50.Seriously how the fuck is 120 even a possibilty ?
This is the reason I scream and insult everyone in a server.I get killed by assholes, who have a kdr of 30/3.And then people say I can´t aim(before the current hit reg fixes mind you).I want to murder them. I really really do.Hope their families get raped while they watch.
i think he was referring to other games... CRT and 120hz monitors will provide 120fps display.
not sure if it's possible to get ns2 at 120 fps, but stuff like UT, CS or TF2 it's pretty easy.
I want to stab you in the eye.120 fps.Is that even possible ? Isn´t the limit like 60 ?Do you have money coming out of your ass, that you can get a stable computer to do that for years or every couple of years ? I mean fuck me.
I can only play with 35 fps.And when a gorge spits on me, I get 5 fps.Granted I am using an old computer, that has been in constant use since 2008, but even then if I get a more up to date one, I can maybe get 50.Seriously how the fuck is 120 even a possibilty ?
This is the reason I scream and insult everyone in a server.I get killed by assholes, who have a kdr of 30/3.And then people say I can´t aim(before the current hit reg fixes mind you).I want to murder them. I really really do.Hope their families get raped while they watch.
i think he was referring to other games... CRT and 120hz monitors will provide 120fps display.
not sure if it's possible to get ns2 at 120 fps, but stuff like UT, CS or TF2 it's pretty easy.
Correct. Right now there's not a single consumer class computer that can run NS2 anywhere close to a stable 120 FPS. My FPS ranges from 100 FPS in areas with absolutely nothing going on (no buildings, hardly any people), to as low as 40-50 in heavy combat situations. It's a massive step down compared to other competitive FPS games where holding a steady 120 is the norm.
Oh yes, nerf the marines! Decrease the marines jumping height, increase gravity, cut off half of their legs so that skulks will be able to fight someone their own size.
...In all seriousness; I do not see the issue with this.
Playing with dips into the 30s in that video was groan inducing - I can't imagine how people play with worse fps on a regular basis.
I like to play skulk most of the time... and there are many times where I've had a hard time tracking a marine because my fps is dipping into the ~20's, whereas I know I would have killed said marines had I had higher fps.
I used to play competitively in another game and didn't have that great of fps in it, but still did well. Then I later upgraded my computer and got great fps and my play improved incredibly, so I certainly know how much performance can have an affect on ones play.
Regardless, I still have fun playing NS2 even with low fps.
I have to agree hare that it is really very frustrating as a skulk when I bit a marine and he jumps like 3 meters back and kills me. I really dont get why a marine can jump further than a skulk.
Personally I've never had trouble with the jumping just the collision between players, many times as a skulk I've had movement stopped completely by a pixel of scenery I had no intention of sticking to but the game thinks I want to. Or the ever fun issue of running up behind a marine only to find all of a sudden I've warped in front of him. The collisions are arse to put it nicely.
We wont tell you guys again, now STOP IT! Last change. - GISP
In that vein, I'll be polite and civil, too.
Firstly, @Savant - you have flagged James' posts as abuse for some reason. It was not until the third or fourth post that he actually said anything against you. I seem to remember you saying on another thread that you only mark what someone else says as abuse if they do the same to you. Oh well. Is this going to be edited out because I think it's pretty polite and reasonable?
TO THE POINT: If you are a LONE marine, which in some cases YOU WILL BE, and you're taking out a harvester, you might get jumped by three skulks. You might not have heard them coming until they were 2 seconds away, which, if you're in a place like Reactor Core and they come out of the vent at the top, YOU COULD HAVE DONE NOTHING ABOUT. Well eventually you will see them as they make their final approach. If you have 3 of them you have to jump. You literally cannot pump out 30 bullets in one second.
Please stop being so obstinate, "Savant"...While I agree that crouching so people behind you can shoot is a nice idea, if you think you should never juke around then take a look at all the pro players. I'm not saying they're right because they're pro - I am saying they're pro because they're right.
As for your "OMG THATS ELITIST" comment - yeah. So what? I think evolutionary theory is true - and I am right, by the way. Am I elitist if someone tells me creationism is true? You're free to believe and do what you want, so long as you don't harm anyone else. James is just being objective.
To give a quote of yours: "No one, especially not the poster in question, has the right to suggest that their way is the only right way to play. "
If you tell me the right way to optimise marine play for wins (which is what this post is ultimately about) is to use your flashlight and never attack, then you are objectively wrong. I chose an OBVIOUS example merely to elucidate for you that the logic of your quote is fundamentally flawed.
There ARE suboptimal ways to play the game. Complaining that he's said that without actually dealing with the argument is ad hominem. Try something else.
And to the OP: I find marine juking very annoying because skulks don't change movement that quickly. I ambushed a marine in Shipping, hit him twice whilst he was building and he jumped over my head and almost killed me - I just left Shipping barely alive.
Bunny hopping doesnt ruin imersion for me or for any of my friends WHAT SO EVER!
It's a mechanic that adds a higher skill ceiling which is always a good thing.
If it's removed from the game it would kill a critical aspect of the game for me(and other people i know)and i might just stop playing it.
While I agree that crouching so people behind you can shoot is a nice idea, if you think you should never juke around...
The problem with basing opinions on replies instead of the original posts, is that you end up with misconceptions. Read over my posts, tell me where I *EVER* said that a player should NOT jump. I'll save you trouble, since I didn't. What I have said (paraphrased) is that I feel spamming the space bar is not something I consider to be wise. You make it sound like I have unbound 'jump' from my bindings. I can assure you, I have not. Do I use jump when in combat? On occasion, yes. However, the day I have to spam my space bar to play this game is the day I uninstall it.
Are there 'sub-optimal' ways to play? I guess that depends on how tightly you want to split hairs. A person who drops his LMG and pistol could be said to be playing sub-optimally. A person who doesn't spam the space bar like an epileptic when attacked is playing *differently* than someone who does. To each his/her own.
Let's be clear here, I DON'T CARE if people want to spam their space bars. Seriously folks, go nuts, it really doesn't bother me. I also haven't suggested that any changes be made to marine jumping, despite those who reply as if I have. Again, my posts are there for the record, I have never said otherwise.
What does bother me is people who have the audacity to suggest that their way is the only "right way" to play and that anyone who doesn't play that way is worthy of derision. This is a game. People should be free to play it without being judged by haughty individuals who think they are God's gift to gaming. Unless a person is playing at the competitive level, no one should be saying that a person isn't playing 'right'. It's not just here either, I hear trash talk like this on the servers too. This is the kind of stuff that drives away casual gamers, and that won't help with the long term sustainability of this game. Something to keep in mind.
I'm not going to reply again since it's pointless and the mods have made their intent clear - it's time to let this drop. Take it to private messages if you want a reply, since I won't be in this thread again.
What does bother me is people who have the audacity to suggest that their way is the only "right way" to play and that anyone who doesn't play that way is worthy of derision. This is a game. People should be free to play it without being judged by haughty individuals who think they are God's gift to gaming. Unless a person is playing at the competitive level, no one should be saying that a person isn't playing 'right'. It's not just here either, I hear trash talk like this on the servers too. This is the kind of stuff that drives away casual gamers, and that won't help with the long term sustainability of this game. Something to keep in mind.
Just because you don't like the reality of something doesn't mean that reality isn't true. Video games, especially FPS games, are almost always defined by certain playstyles being dramatically better than all other options. I'm going to take this time to point out one specific part of your post that's at the root of your problem:
People don't like being judged.
Therein is the problem. That attitude where someone telling you objectively playing suboptimally somehow gets warped into, "He's judging me! He's a jerk!" If a better player tells you that you're not playing in an optimal fashion, why is your instinctive response to immediately bash that player and throw out meaningless self-defense words like elitist? I don't understand the rush to defend how you're playing, when you can objectively evaluate the situation and incorporate elements of the better player into your play.
FYI, the top players in any game are plagiarists of the highest order. Because getting extremely good at a game includes realizing that your initial thoughts on how to play the game probably aren't anywhere close to optimal. In any game I've ever played at a top level, it's been because I've observed other players who were better than me, and stole what they did while making improvements of my own. There's no bonus points in gaming for being a unique snowflake. If someone beats you/outperforms you, figure out what they're doing, and make it your own. Being stubborn and attacking players better than you means that your pride is going to prevent you from emulating what they do well.
I really don't think we should be removing any more skilled movement from games than has already disappeared in almost all modern ones. Personally I like air control, it adds more depth to combat, the skulks got hit by the nerf bat pretty hard in 240 like someone else said, and this made marine air control much stronger by comparison in close quarters. But the solution to that isn't then nerfing the marine movement, then the alien movement, then the marine movement again.
Also, just pointing out that I thought it was pretty awesome when you saw marines crouched mid air jumping around in NS1, it was just so funny.
So while I don't like marine hopping, they are only hurting themselves by doing it. There is no real advantage over an alien, unless the alien was poorly skilled to begin with.
Well you asked me to quote your original post - there it is.
You're objectively wrong - every pro player does it and does it a lot.
If you want to fight in Boxing, you don't HAVE to dodge every attack, but if you study it closely you will find that the greatest fighters were able to...
Now you might say: But this is a game! It's for fun!. Nobody is saying you can't play a game you want to, but James was talking in the context of "if you want to win".
So there, quoted your original post. In what way did me doing this clarify what I said earlier? Nothing in my previous comment is contradicted by the above. As for "taking it to the PMs" - why? Are you saying there is a "right" way to use a forum?! Outrage!! Generic slur!
What does bother me is people who have the audacity to suggest that their way is the only "right way" to play and that anyone who doesn't play that way is worthy of derision. This is a game. People should be free to play it without being judged by haughty individuals who think they are God's gift to gaming. Unless a person is playing at the competitive level, no one should be saying that a person isn't playing 'right'. It's not just here either, I hear trash talk like this on the servers too. This is the kind of stuff that drives away casual gamers, and that won't help with the long term sustainability of this game. Something to keep in mind.
Just because you don't like the reality of something doesn't mean that reality isn't true. Video games, especially FPS games, are almost always defined by certain playstyles being dramatically better than all other options.
FYI, the top players in any game are plagiarists of the highest order. Because getting extremely good at a game includes realizing that your initial thoughts on how to play the game probably aren't anywhere close to optimal. In any game I've ever played at a top level, it's been because I've observed other players who were better than me, and stole what they did while making improvements of my own. There's no bonus points in gaming for being a unique snowflake. If someone beats you/outperforms you, figure out what they're doing, and make it your own. Being stubborn and attacking players better than you means that your pride is going to prevent you from emulating what they do well.
Actually, from a game design standpoint, requiring that a specific mechanic be used (especially one with zero down-side, as with marine combat-jumping at the moment) is indicative of a broken mechanic which needs to be reviewed and altered or removed. It's a big red flag that something is creating a vector which is too strong; exactly the same as if a specific gun is the go-to must-buy-or-scrub weapon.
Essentially it's destroying your own argument to say that you MUST jump in combat to be effective.
Frankly, if a 'pro' Marine can take out 3-4 skulks solo specifically by juke jumping, especially AFTER being caught unawares/ambushed, it can be called 'skill ceiling', but it also definitely needs to be reviewed to determine if that is a reliable case-scenario. There is a very thin line being walked between 'skill' and 'unbalanced'... especially in an arena of asymmetric game-play as dramatically pronounced as with NS(2).
The entire point of competitive game-play in most cases is to FIND those broken mechanics/weapons/methods, and abuse them as they provide the greatest advantage possible. The highest win-rate. The methods used by 'pros' generally need to receive the greatest scrutiny to determine if the player inputs associated warrant the returns they provide. And preferably before they become ingrained in the competitive culture (or worse yet, seen as being ENDORSED by the Devs) to minimize backlash when the favorite broken bit is finally fixed and tuned to an even footing. Of course you'll always have people whining and complaining when their favorite crutch is yanked away about 'lowering the skill ceiling' (see: bunny hopping in NS1), but it makes the game better as a whole, as the varied methods then-allowed by hammering the abusive one flat improve the versatility and possible permutations of games to increase without affecting the win-ratio.
Actually, from a game design standpoint, requiring that a specific mechanic be used (especially one with zero down-side, as with marine combat-jumping at the moment) is indicative of a broken mechanic which needs to be reviewed and altered or removed. It's a big red flag that something is creating a vector which is too strong; exactly the same as if a specific gun is the go-to must-buy-or-scrub weapon.
Essentially it's destroying your own argument to say that you MUST jump in combat to be effective.
Frankly, if a 'pro' Marine can take out 3-4 skulks solo specifically by juke jumping, it can be called 'skill ceiling', but it also definitely needs to be reviewed to determine if that is a reliable case-scenario. There is a very thin line being walked between 'skill' and 'unbalanced'... especially in an arena of asymmetric game-play as dramatically pronounced as with NS(2).
The entire point of competitive game-play in most cases is to FIND those broken mechanics/weapons/methods, and abuse them as they provide the greatest advantage possible. The highest win-rate. The methods used by 'pros' generally need to receive the greatest scrutiny to determine if the player inputs associated warrant the returns they provide. And preferably before they become ingrained in the competitive culture (or worse yet, seen as being ENDORSED by the Devs) to minimize backlash when the favorite broken bit is finally fixed and tuned to an even footing. Of course you'll always have people whining and complaining when their favorite crutch is yanked away about 'lowering the skill ceiling' (see: bunny hopping in NS1), but it makes the game better as a whole, as the varied methods then-allowed by hammering the abusive one flat improve the versatility and possible permutations of games to increase without affecting the win-ratio.
Every game with any sort of skill depth is going to have mechanics that are always used and clearly the optimal choice. They are the base mechanics that make up critical gameplay elements. If you nerf those base mechanics, people will simply adapt to the next best thing. In any FPS game specifically, the best option for movement has always been to take the path that makes you hardest to hit. In most games, that's usually a combination of A/D-A/D strafing, and either well timed or spammed jumping. Those movement mechanics are not bad, and while they seem simple on face value, there's always a massive difference between the best players and everyone else at utilizing them. (Case in point on skilled ad/ad strafing: See TF2 scout duels. A good scout has enough game sense and varies his movement up enough that he's dramatically harder to hit than your average players attempt at it.)
And no, a good player being able to take out 3-4 players average to bad isn't necessarily something that, "needs to be reviewed." One of the worst aspects of modern games is how developers hammer the skilled player into the ground by systematically removing every element that can be skillfully used for an advantage. In the video I posted, I successfully won a 1v3. My winning in that 1v3 was highly aided by the fact that the game afforded me a way of making my movement unpredictable. However, the advantage of that unpredictable movement goes down considerably against better skulks, and full on juking turns into mild damage reduction - meaning if those 3 skulks were good, I wouldn't have lived. Just because a component of the game (skilled movement) lets a high level player definitively beat low level players doesn't mean the component is broken. Because in the example at hand, if you were to nerf marine movement, you would also crush the mild benefit a marine gets against equally skilled aliens, thus reducing the skill ceiling in the game.
And about bunny hopping? Removing that skilled system of movement was probably one of the worst things that happened in the conversion from NS1 to NS2. It's why you have a game right now in where the difference between skilled movement and unskilled movement is mild and subtle at best. And that small movement distinction is getting worse with the skulk being excessively dumbed down since the Gorgeous patch. It's horrifying to hear some people now have the sentiment that the solution (balance-wise) to marine movement now exceeding skulk movement, is to nerf what little remains of marine movement instead of restoring skulk movement.
The Gorgeous patch was a huge step back for skulk movement skill. It's sad to think that the response to that patch might be to remove the last few things marines can use for movement related skill.
What about significantly reducing marines ability to jump in combat and in exchange amp their damage slightly. Then distance is life for real. And skulk lethality up close is increased as well as marine lethality at distance.
FPS/RTS game being treated as CounterStrike Source, that is everyones problem here and why our game cant have any REAL competitive strategy in it other than stacking up the best shooters to your team.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
The problem is that there is no down side. No reason NOT to jump around. Deciding if a tradeoff is worthwhile is part of 'skill' as much as any mechanical usage of the tools provided; if anything I'd call a tactical choice more of an actual skill than a basic mechanical proclivity. If the penalty incurred is worth the benefit gained. As it stands currently, there is ONLY benefit. I'd say that more 'dumbs down' the movement than anything else; it requires the usage of a given playstyle, limiting options and harming the ability to balance without outlying vectors.
Personally, I'd rather see a 'wild fire' while jumping/airborne. It would require a Marine to decide whether they wanted to attack (stay on the ground) or focus on defense/evasion by jumping around. It would also penalize rambos further, which has always been a core principle of gameplay; a solo Marine is meant to be vulnerable and relatively easily killed. Especially-so in close-combat.
The problem is that there is no down side. No reason NOT to jump around. Deciding if a tradeoff is worthwhile is part of 'skill' as much as any mechanical usage of the tools provided; if anything I'd call a tactical choice more of an actual skill than a basic mechanical proclivity. If the penalty incurred is worth the benefit gained. As it stands currently, there is ONLY benefit. I'd say that more 'dumbs down' the movement than anything else; it requires the usage of a given playstyle, limiting options and harming the ability to balance without outlying vectors.
The core movement in most FPS games similar to NS2 (ie: Quake, UT, Tribes, etc) does not have downsides. It's simply expected that you'll be familiar with movement skills and use them as much as possible to dodge. When you watch a great match like rapha vs stermy:
There is no downside to both of them utilizing absolutely amazing movement - and why would there be? Do you honestly think Quake would be a better game if there was some arbitrary mechanic that limited movement abilities or gave downsides to using them? People constantly moving and being evasive is far more exciting to play (and watch) than a game that artificially limits movement with downsides that don't need to exist.
As far as NS2 goes, watching marines that have the ability to juke skulks if they move right and have a bit of luck is far more exciting to me than watching a marine have no movement and simply die because he has no options.
Personally, I'd rather see a 'wild fire' while jumping/airborne. It would require a Marine to decide whether they wanted to attack (stay on the ground) or focus on defense/evasion by jumping around. It would also penalize rambos further, which has always been a core principle of gameplay; a solo Marine is meant to be vulnerable and relatively easily killed. Especially-so in close-combat.
Solo marines are easily killed. So long as the people going in on the marine are at a similar skill level to the marine that is. I don't feel its right that a high skill marine should simply die to 2 bad to average players just because he's solo. Making binary win/lose scenarios is silly, and detracts from a skill based game.
And on the rambo note? Ramboing is a sign that your game actually has a skill curve - it's a good thing. Why? Because it means there's enough room in your game's skill curve that one player can beat an overwhelming number advantage if his skill is high enough. Want to beat that high skilled player who's ramboing? Bring yourself up to his skill level and beat him. Simple as that.
The problem is that there is no down side. No reason NOT to jump around. Deciding if a tradeoff is worthwhile is part of 'skill' as much as any mechanical usage of the tools provided; if anything I'd call a tactical choice more of an actual skill than a basic mechanical proclivity. If the penalty incurred is worth the benefit gained. As it stands currently, there is ONLY benefit. I'd say that more 'dumbs down' the movement than anything else; it requires the usage of a given playstyle, limiting options and harming the ability to balance without outlying vectors.
Personally, I'd rather see a 'wild fire' while jumping/airborne. It would require a Marine to decide whether they wanted to attack (stay on the ground) or focus on defense/evasion by jumping around. It would also penalize rambos further, which has always been a core principle of gameplay; a solo Marine is meant to be vulnerable and relatively easily killed. Especially-so in close-combat.
This needs to re-emphasized, every "lowering of skill ceiling" call by most players are usually exactly the opposite, by the same logic skulks are also now HARDer to play and there require MORE skill to play effectively, its one of the most hypocritical problems people on this forum forget xD
This needs to re-emphasized, every "lowering of skill ceiling" call by most players are usually exactly the opposite, by the same logic skulks are also now HARDer to play and there require MORE skill to play effectively, its one of the most hypocritical problems people on this forum forget xD
Skulks don't require more skill to play effectively now. Something becoming weaker due to a nerf is not an act that increases the skill ceiling of a gameplay element - in many cases it's the opposite. The gap between an average skulk and a top level skulk in 239 was huge, because 239 skulks had a much faster top speed via good wall jumping, and far more movement options for close range dodging. Eliminating all of those tools barely affects the average player (his skill wasn't high to begin with), but drastically affects the top level player who was using every tool available to him.
Bad skulks in 239 ground skulked and died. Bad skulks in 241 still ground skulk and die. Except in 241, I no longer have to worry about high level skulks going into my face at high speeds, nor do I have to worry about them evading me at all in close range. The toolset available to good players was drastically lessened, and as a result the gap between high and average was compressed. Meaning that the effect of high skill was dramatically lessened, and reaching the maximum output of the skulk is significantly easier.
I don't see the point in flagging every single post someone makes simply because you disagree with their point of view or how they view the game.
Right now, I'm finding it more frustrating playing against marines as a skulk simply because I'm losing more of those engagements where I thought I had the upper hand. To me that doesn't mean Marines movement is OP, though that could be a possibility. Another possibility is that I'm choosing engagements at the wrong moment, given the changes to the latest builds.
There are alot of ways to play the game though. I'm sure James will agree that if you are the front marine and crouching will give your backup better line of fire then he will take it. I'm also sure that in the same scenario once the skulks start to close the range he will start juking to prolong his own life, and give his backup more time to kill the skulks.
Savant I'm also sure you realise that being able to juke a skulk to win an engagement is an important feature not only for you, but also for your team. Prime example would be trying to set up a phase in a forward location when you get jumped.
Overall I'm still unsure about skulk v marine movement. On one hand if things go right for the skulk he's in a strong position to win that engagement, but on the other I feel if he misreads once he's dead.
Comments
Yep, I agree. The main thing is though, is that despite the skill levels of the skulks in the video, the ability to jump and juke was needed to win when outnumbered in a situation like that. No jumping in that video = no living.
Remember, my stance in this thread is that marine movement is fine, and that skulks probably need a slight bump up for their ground acceleration. Things just got derailed a bit when Savant unsuccessfully tried to contest it being useful at all. Thankfully, things are somewhat more on track now.
Oof. Coming from a competitive FPS background, any FPS that isn't a steady 120 FPS feels bad to me. Playing with dips into the 30s in that video was groan inducing - I can't imagine how people play with worse fps on a regular basis.
I think thats pretty much it. Leave marine movement as is, give the skulk a little buff to acceleration so they can keep up with the quick directional changes a marine can make in close combat.
They get used to it. Adapt. Just like the higher pingers (in past games) who learned to calculate their shots ahead of time, to stay competitive.
It is absurd to consider Marine hopping pointless. JAMES video shows it benefits.
It's equally absurd to assume there is an absolute "right" way to play, in my opinion. NS2's young, with a growing player base, with more balance and performance patches coming.
On-topic- Marine hopping looks worse because of the changes to skulks. If Marines couldn't hop, they'd strafe more; which can be nearly as effective against average players. In that situation, most skulks might still have a rough time landing a few clean hits, before the Marine kills them.
The problems not Marines, in my opinion. However, if Skulks are kept in their current state (before Leap), Marine jumping would likely need to be changed. I wouldn't want this.
Oof. Coming from a competitive FPS background, any FPS that isn't a steady 120 FPS feels bad to me. Playing with dips into the 30s in that video was groan inducing - I can't imagine how people play with worse fps on a regular basis.
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I want to stab you in the eye.120 fps.Is that even possible ? Isn´t the limit like 60 ?Do you have money coming out of your ass, that you can get a stable computer to do that for years or every couple of years ? I mean fuck me.
I can only play with 35 fps.And when a gorge spits on me, I get 5 fps.Granted I am using an old computer, that has been in constant use since 2008, but even then if I get a more up to date one, I can maybe get 50.Seriously how the fuck is 120 even a possibilty ?
This is the reason I scream and insult everyone in a server.I get killed by assholes, who have a kdr of 30/3.And then people say I can´t aim(before the current hit reg fixes mind you).I want to murder them. I really really do.Hope their families get raped while they watch.
i think he was referring to other games... CRT and 120hz monitors will provide 120fps display.
not sure if it's possible to get ns2 at 120 fps, but stuff like UT, CS or TF2 it's pretty easy.
Correct. Right now there's not a single consumer class computer that can run NS2 anywhere close to a stable 120 FPS. My FPS ranges from 100 FPS in areas with absolutely nothing going on (no buildings, hardly any people), to as low as 40-50 in heavy combat situations. It's a massive step down compared to other competitive FPS games where holding a steady 120 is the norm.
...In all seriousness; I do not see the issue with this.
I like to play skulk most of the time... and there are many times where I've had a hard time tracking a marine because my fps is dipping into the ~20's, whereas I know I would have killed said marines had I had higher fps.
I used to play competitively in another game and didn't have that great of fps in it, but still did well. Then I later upgraded my computer and got great fps and my play improved incredibly, so I certainly know how much performance can have an affect on ones play.
Regardless, I still have fun playing NS2 even with low fps.
Last change.
In that vein, I'll be polite and civil, too.
Firstly, @Savant - you have flagged James' posts as abuse for some reason. It was not until the third or fourth post that he actually said anything against you. I seem to remember you saying on another thread that you only mark what someone else says as abuse if they do the same to you. Oh well. Is this going to be edited out because I think it's pretty polite and reasonable?
TO THE POINT: If you are a LONE marine, which in some cases YOU WILL BE, and you're taking out a harvester, you might get jumped by three skulks. You might not have heard them coming until they were 2 seconds away, which, if you're in a place like Reactor Core and they come out of the vent at the top, YOU COULD HAVE DONE NOTHING ABOUT. Well eventually you will see them as they make their final approach. If you have 3 of them you have to jump. You literally cannot pump out 30 bullets in one second.
Please stop being so obstinate, "Savant"...While I agree that crouching so people behind you can shoot is a nice idea, if you think you should never juke around then take a look at all the pro players. I'm not saying they're right because they're pro - I am saying they're pro because they're right.
As for your "OMG THATS ELITIST" comment - yeah. So what? I think evolutionary theory is true - and I am right, by the way. Am I elitist if someone tells me creationism is true? You're free to believe and do what you want, so long as you don't harm anyone else. James is just being objective.
To give a quote of yours: "No one, especially not the poster in question, has the right to suggest that their way is the only right way to play. "
If you tell me the right way to optimise marine play for wins (which is what this post is ultimately about) is to use your flashlight and never attack, then you are objectively wrong. I chose an OBVIOUS example merely to elucidate for you that the logic of your quote is fundamentally flawed.
There ARE suboptimal ways to play the game. Complaining that he's said that without actually dealing with the argument is ad hominem. Try something else.
And to the OP: I find marine juking very annoying because skulks don't change movement that quickly. I ambushed a marine in Shipping, hit him twice whilst he was building and he jumped over my head and almost killed me - I just left Shipping barely alive.
It's a mechanic that adds a higher skill ceiling which is always a good thing.
If it's removed from the game it would kill a critical aspect of the game for me(and other people i know)and i might just stop playing it.
+1 To this. Don't slow the game down.
Are there 'sub-optimal' ways to play? I guess that depends on how tightly you want to split hairs. A person who drops his LMG and pistol could be said to be playing sub-optimally. A person who doesn't spam the space bar like an epileptic when attacked is playing *differently* than someone who does. To each his/her own.
Let's be clear here, I DON'T CARE if people want to spam their space bars. Seriously folks, go nuts, it really doesn't bother me. I also haven't suggested that any changes be made to marine jumping, despite those who reply as if I have. Again, my posts are there for the record, I have never said otherwise.
What does bother me is people who have the audacity to suggest that their way is the only "right way" to play and that anyone who doesn't play that way is worthy of derision. This is a game. People should be free to play it without being judged by haughty individuals who think they are God's gift to gaming. Unless a person is playing at the competitive level, no one should be saying that a person isn't playing 'right'. It's not just here either, I hear trash talk like this on the servers too. This is the kind of stuff that drives away casual gamers, and that won't help with the long term sustainability of this game. Something to keep in mind.
I'm not going to reply again since it's pointless and the mods have made their intent clear - it's time to let this drop. Take it to private messages if you want a reply, since I won't be in this thread again.
Just because you don't like the reality of something doesn't mean that reality isn't true. Video games, especially FPS games, are almost always defined by certain playstyles being dramatically better than all other options. I'm going to take this time to point out one specific part of your post that's at the root of your problem:
People don't like being judged.
Therein is the problem. That attitude where someone telling you objectively playing suboptimally somehow gets warped into, "He's judging me! He's a jerk!" If a better player tells you that you're not playing in an optimal fashion, why is your instinctive response to immediately bash that player and throw out meaningless self-defense words like elitist? I don't understand the rush to defend how you're playing, when you can objectively evaluate the situation and incorporate elements of the better player into your play.
FYI, the top players in any game are plagiarists of the highest order. Because getting extremely good at a game includes realizing that your initial thoughts on how to play the game probably aren't anywhere close to optimal. In any game I've ever played at a top level, it's been because I've observed other players who were better than me, and stole what they did while making improvements of my own. There's no bonus points in gaming for being a unique snowflake. If someone beats you/outperforms you, figure out what they're doing, and make it your own. Being stubborn and attacking players better than you means that your pride is going to prevent you from emulating what they do well.
Also, just pointing out that I thought it was pretty awesome when you saw marines crouched mid air jumping around in NS1, it was just so funny.
By being wrong, yo.
@Savant
Well you asked me to quote your original post - there it is.
You're objectively wrong - every pro player does it and does it a lot.
If you want to fight in Boxing, you don't HAVE to dodge every attack, but if you study it closely you will find that the greatest fighters were able to...
Now you might say: But this is a game! It's for fun!. Nobody is saying you can't play a game you want to, but James was talking in the context of "if you want to win".
So there, quoted your original post. In what way did me doing this clarify what I said earlier? Nothing in my previous comment is contradicted by the above. As for "taking it to the PMs" - why? Are you saying there is a "right" way to use a forum?! Outrage!! Generic slur!
Actually, from a game design standpoint, requiring that a specific mechanic be used (especially one with zero down-side, as with marine combat-jumping at the moment) is indicative of a broken mechanic which needs to be reviewed and altered or removed. It's a big red flag that something is creating a vector which is too strong; exactly the same as if a specific gun is the go-to must-buy-or-scrub weapon.
Essentially it's destroying your own argument to say that you MUST jump in combat to be effective.
Frankly, if a 'pro' Marine can take out 3-4 skulks solo specifically by juke jumping, especially AFTER being caught unawares/ambushed, it can be called 'skill ceiling', but it also definitely needs to be reviewed to determine if that is a reliable case-scenario. There is a very thin line being walked between 'skill' and 'unbalanced'... especially in an arena of asymmetric game-play as dramatically pronounced as with NS(2).
The entire point of competitive game-play in most cases is to FIND those broken mechanics/weapons/methods, and abuse them as they provide the greatest advantage possible. The highest win-rate. The methods used by 'pros' generally need to receive the greatest scrutiny to determine if the player inputs associated warrant the returns they provide. And preferably before they become ingrained in the competitive culture (or worse yet, seen as being ENDORSED by the Devs) to minimize backlash when the favorite broken bit is finally fixed and tuned to an even footing. Of course you'll always have people whining and complaining when their favorite crutch is yanked away about 'lowering the skill ceiling' (see: bunny hopping in NS1), but it makes the game better as a whole, as the varied methods then-allowed by hammering the abusive one flat improve the versatility and possible permutations of games to increase without affecting the win-ratio.
Every game with any sort of skill depth is going to have mechanics that are always used and clearly the optimal choice. They are the base mechanics that make up critical gameplay elements. If you nerf those base mechanics, people will simply adapt to the next best thing. In any FPS game specifically, the best option for movement has always been to take the path that makes you hardest to hit. In most games, that's usually a combination of A/D-A/D strafing, and either well timed or spammed jumping. Those movement mechanics are not bad, and while they seem simple on face value, there's always a massive difference between the best players and everyone else at utilizing them. (Case in point on skilled ad/ad strafing: See TF2 scout duels. A good scout has enough game sense and varies his movement up enough that he's dramatically harder to hit than your average players attempt at it.)
And no, a good player being able to take out 3-4 players average to bad isn't necessarily something that, "needs to be reviewed." One of the worst aspects of modern games is how developers hammer the skilled player into the ground by systematically removing every element that can be skillfully used for an advantage. In the video I posted, I successfully won a 1v3. My winning in that 1v3 was highly aided by the fact that the game afforded me a way of making my movement unpredictable. However, the advantage of that unpredictable movement goes down considerably against better skulks, and full on juking turns into mild damage reduction - meaning if those 3 skulks were good, I wouldn't have lived. Just because a component of the game (skilled movement) lets a high level player definitively beat low level players doesn't mean the component is broken. Because in the example at hand, if you were to nerf marine movement, you would also crush the mild benefit a marine gets against equally skilled aliens, thus reducing the skill ceiling in the game.
And about bunny hopping? Removing that skilled system of movement was probably one of the worst things that happened in the conversion from NS1 to NS2. It's why you have a game right now in where the difference between skilled movement and unskilled movement is mild and subtle at best. And that small movement distinction is getting worse with the skulk being excessively dumbed down since the Gorgeous patch. It's horrifying to hear some people now have the sentiment that the solution (balance-wise) to marine movement now exceeding skulk movement, is to nerf what little remains of marine movement instead of restoring skulk movement.
The Gorgeous patch was a huge step back for skulk movement skill. It's sad to think that the response to that patch might be to remove the last few things marines can use for movement related skill.
What about significantly reducing marines ability to jump in combat and in exchange amp their damage slightly. Then distance is life for real. And skulk lethality up close is increased as well as marine lethality at distance.
Personally, I'd rather see a 'wild fire' while jumping/airborne. It would require a Marine to decide whether they wanted to attack (stay on the ground) or focus on defense/evasion by jumping around. It would also penalize rambos further, which has always been a core principle of gameplay; a solo Marine is meant to be vulnerable and relatively easily killed. Especially-so in close-combat.
The core movement in most FPS games similar to NS2 (ie: Quake, UT, Tribes, etc) does not have downsides. It's simply expected that you'll be familiar with movement skills and use them as much as possible to dodge. When you watch a great match like rapha vs stermy:
There is no downside to both of them utilizing absolutely amazing movement - and why would there be? Do you honestly think Quake would be a better game if there was some arbitrary mechanic that limited movement abilities or gave downsides to using them? People constantly moving and being evasive is far more exciting to play (and watch) than a game that artificially limits movement with downsides that don't need to exist.
As far as NS2 goes, watching marines that have the ability to juke skulks if they move right and have a bit of luck is far more exciting to me than watching a marine have no movement and simply die because he has no options.
Solo marines are easily killed. So long as the people going in on the marine are at a similar skill level to the marine that is. I don't feel its right that a high skill marine should simply die to 2 bad to average players just because he's solo. Making binary win/lose scenarios is silly, and detracts from a skill based game.
And on the rambo note? Ramboing is a sign that your game actually has a skill curve - it's a good thing. Why? Because it means there's enough room in your game's skill curve that one player can beat an overwhelming number advantage if his skill is high enough. Want to beat that high skilled player who's ramboing? Bring yourself up to his skill level and beat him. Simple as that.
This needs to re-emphasized, every "lowering of skill ceiling" call by most players are usually exactly the opposite, by the same logic skulks are also now HARDer to play and there require MORE skill to play effectively, its one of the most hypocritical problems people on this forum forget xD
Skulks don't require more skill to play effectively now. Something becoming weaker due to a nerf is not an act that increases the skill ceiling of a gameplay element - in many cases it's the opposite. The gap between an average skulk and a top level skulk in 239 was huge, because 239 skulks had a much faster top speed via good wall jumping, and far more movement options for close range dodging. Eliminating all of those tools barely affects the average player (his skill wasn't high to begin with), but drastically affects the top level player who was using every tool available to him.
Bad skulks in 239 ground skulked and died. Bad skulks in 241 still ground skulk and die. Except in 241, I no longer have to worry about high level skulks going into my face at high speeds, nor do I have to worry about them evading me at all in close range. The toolset available to good players was drastically lessened, and as a result the gap between high and average was compressed. Meaning that the effect of high skill was dramatically lessened, and reaching the maximum output of the skulk is significantly easier.
Right now, I'm finding it more frustrating playing against marines as a skulk simply because I'm losing more of those engagements where I thought I had the upper hand. To me that doesn't mean Marines movement is OP, though that could be a possibility. Another possibility is that I'm choosing engagements at the wrong moment, given the changes to the latest builds.
There are alot of ways to play the game though. I'm sure James will agree that if you are the front marine and crouching will give your backup better line of fire then he will take it. I'm also sure that in the same scenario once the skulks start to close the range he will start juking to prolong his own life, and give his backup more time to kill the skulks.
Savant I'm also sure you realise that being able to juke a skulk to win an engagement is an important feature not only for you, but also for your team. Prime example would be trying to set up a phase in a forward location when you get jumped.
Overall I'm still unsure about skulk v marine movement. On one hand if things go right for the skulk he's in a strong position to win that engagement, but on the other I feel if he misreads once he's dead.