Community/Developer position on Marine Hopping
Jakkar
Join Date: 2006-12-02 Member: 58826Members
Join Date: 2006-12-02 Member: 58826Members
I won't term it bunny-hopping, though that's the popular title for the technique, due to confusion with the old Quake/GoldSrc tricks involving curved jumps increasing air acceleration.
I'm referring to marines endlessly jumping in whirling patterns during close combat with skulks while firing wherever they see movement, able to take as many as six bites later in the game unless absolute precision of bites is assured, something none but the best will be able to provide. Yes, that precision can be asked for, but this isn't a game tailored exclusively to the experienced pro - and it won't succeed if it presents too frustrating a learning curve to new players.
Allow me to state two reasons I disapprove of the ability before I conclude with a question to the community, if you've the patience;
Firstly, the infinitely jumping marine - spending only milliseconds of a close combat fight actually touching the floor between inane circular hops - looks utterly ridiculous in comparison with the rest of the game.
With the effort expended to make NS2 as beautiful as it is, with the fantastic Lerk flying animations, the beautiful effects on the Fade's Blink and Shadowstep, the spread of dynamic infestation; the animations for marines are completely incongruous, resembling their origin - things like Half-Life Deathmatch, colourful characters bouncing around Xen DM maps duckjumping and firing their Gauss cannons into the ground for flight, or Team Fortress Classic's conc-jumpers. Rigid-spined, bouncing without leg animation as though wearing rocket-boosters in their boot-heels, and rotating with the desperate grace of an amateur ballerina on crack.
Animations derived from NS1, derived in turn from the basic animation systems of Half Life 1's engine.
Marines? You are all Gordon Freeman.
Spark can do better than this, and it can leave behind the awkward, clunky conventions of the 90s at the same time and remove the focus on humans frantically jumping up and down in the middle of a firefight while sustaining pinpoint accuracy with automatic weapons.
Secondly; It is deeply frustrating for me, and for many of the other players I've spoken to on servers to play as a skulk - defined and balanced by his fragility coupled with his agility as a melee combatant - and to lose in close combat with a character supposedly defined by his sturdy armour and long range abilities who by all accounts should in close combat be at a disadvantage - yet unaccountably gifted with the power of a sentient basketball to bounce in all directions, while using long range firearms as close range chainsaws.
As a marine, meanwhile, I can only speak for myself in saying that I feel ashamed whenever I eliminate a skulk by this technique, breaking the atmosphere and theme of the game - bending what feel like the 'unspoken rules' of the setting by exploiting these out of date air-movement mechanics to become so frustrating a target. I can do this to green-named rookies and I can do it to old friends who have played since the original game - skill alone isn't enough in a one on one fight at point blank, I've seen some of the best players I've met fall easily with just a bit of bad luck against the Bouncing Ape.
This frustration, when sustained over many lives and deaths on both public and private servers with my community (the NS2 Pickup Artists
), is at times outweighing the pleasure I take in playing this otherwise excellent game. I derive from this experience that I'm unlikely to be the only victim of frustration in this regard, and the same from the outright anger frequently expressed by alien players who cannot bend their expectations of the setting, class descriptions and implied gameplay balance to account for this crazy ability the marines somehow possess.
...
Most games carrying the Half Life mod legacy have solved this issue by preventing immediate follow-on jumps from having the same height or distance as the original, implying the impossibility of preparing your legs for another effort without first sinking onto your haunches, and avoiding the awkward and time-consuming process of developing and balancing a full stamina system, which I feel would be inappropriate to NS2.
Aliens use energy, marines use ammunition, and that's a comfortable set - giving marines another personal resource to manage in the form of stamina would be a waste of development time.
...
Having stated this, my purpose in posting this thread isn't to issue some kind of ill-conceived and presumtuous demand for change - it's to clarify my own position and that of numerous players I've encountered over the last several months, and to ask you, the community; how do you feel about the marine's ability to repeatedly/infinitely jump directionally in close combat?
And while this may be a stretch, I'd love to know either directly or from what the community know; how to UWE feel about this mechanic?
Feedback appreciated.
Oh, and last word; please, if your only inclination is to use your reply to boast your own 1337 sk1llz or to state 'lol ur noob if cant kil marine', post somewhere else. Let the grownups discuss game design and balance
I'd be very grateful for mature and considered posts - and if you don't have anything meaningful to contribute, you don't have to reply. It's a busy forum, try another thread.
Thanks for reading.
- Jack
I'm referring to marines endlessly jumping in whirling patterns during close combat with skulks while firing wherever they see movement, able to take as many as six bites later in the game unless absolute precision of bites is assured, something none but the best will be able to provide. Yes, that precision can be asked for, but this isn't a game tailored exclusively to the experienced pro - and it won't succeed if it presents too frustrating a learning curve to new players.
Allow me to state two reasons I disapprove of the ability before I conclude with a question to the community, if you've the patience;
Firstly, the infinitely jumping marine - spending only milliseconds of a close combat fight actually touching the floor between inane circular hops - looks utterly ridiculous in comparison with the rest of the game.
With the effort expended to make NS2 as beautiful as it is, with the fantastic Lerk flying animations, the beautiful effects on the Fade's Blink and Shadowstep, the spread of dynamic infestation; the animations for marines are completely incongruous, resembling their origin - things like Half-Life Deathmatch, colourful characters bouncing around Xen DM maps duckjumping and firing their Gauss cannons into the ground for flight, or Team Fortress Classic's conc-jumpers. Rigid-spined, bouncing without leg animation as though wearing rocket-boosters in their boot-heels, and rotating with the desperate grace of an amateur ballerina on crack.
Animations derived from NS1, derived in turn from the basic animation systems of Half Life 1's engine.
Marines? You are all Gordon Freeman.
Spark can do better than this, and it can leave behind the awkward, clunky conventions of the 90s at the same time and remove the focus on humans frantically jumping up and down in the middle of a firefight while sustaining pinpoint accuracy with automatic weapons.
Secondly; It is deeply frustrating for me, and for many of the other players I've spoken to on servers to play as a skulk - defined and balanced by his fragility coupled with his agility as a melee combatant - and to lose in close combat with a character supposedly defined by his sturdy armour and long range abilities who by all accounts should in close combat be at a disadvantage - yet unaccountably gifted with the power of a sentient basketball to bounce in all directions, while using long range firearms as close range chainsaws.
As a marine, meanwhile, I can only speak for myself in saying that I feel ashamed whenever I eliminate a skulk by this technique, breaking the atmosphere and theme of the game - bending what feel like the 'unspoken rules' of the setting by exploiting these out of date air-movement mechanics to become so frustrating a target. I can do this to green-named rookies and I can do it to old friends who have played since the original game - skill alone isn't enough in a one on one fight at point blank, I've seen some of the best players I've met fall easily with just a bit of bad luck against the Bouncing Ape.
This frustration, when sustained over many lives and deaths on both public and private servers with my community (the NS2 Pickup Artists
), is at times outweighing the pleasure I take in playing this otherwise excellent game. I derive from this experience that I'm unlikely to be the only victim of frustration in this regard, and the same from the outright anger frequently expressed by alien players who cannot bend their expectations of the setting, class descriptions and implied gameplay balance to account for this crazy ability the marines somehow possess....
Most games carrying the Half Life mod legacy have solved this issue by preventing immediate follow-on jumps from having the same height or distance as the original, implying the impossibility of preparing your legs for another effort without first sinking onto your haunches, and avoiding the awkward and time-consuming process of developing and balancing a full stamina system, which I feel would be inappropriate to NS2.
Aliens use energy, marines use ammunition, and that's a comfortable set - giving marines another personal resource to manage in the form of stamina would be a waste of development time.
...
Having stated this, my purpose in posting this thread isn't to issue some kind of ill-conceived and presumtuous demand for change - it's to clarify my own position and that of numerous players I've encountered over the last several months, and to ask you, the community; how do you feel about the marine's ability to repeatedly/infinitely jump directionally in close combat?
And while this may be a stretch, I'd love to know either directly or from what the community know; how to UWE feel about this mechanic?
Feedback appreciated.
Oh, and last word; please, if your only inclination is to use your reply to boast your own 1337 sk1llz or to state 'lol ur noob if cant kil marine', post somewhere else. Let the grownups discuss game design and balance
I'd be very grateful for mature and considered posts - and if you don't have anything meaningful to contribute, you don't have to reply. It's a busy forum, try another thread.Thanks for reading.
- Jack
Comments
As a skulk, I evade and close position at the same time. The objective is to confuse the marine into jumping randomly. If he jumps randomly and isn't sure where I am, I position myself so that he jumps into my line of fire and I finish him off. It's a very satisfying dance that takes some practice to pull off for both sides. Removing or changing this skulk vs marine dance will take some of the fun out of the game.
Marine jumping in combat is fine. It is a skill that takes a little practice to learn, though the hardest part was just learning to stay calm enough not to spam jump while being attacked. If anything needs looked at, it is marine speed vs alien speed.
^this. It is not marine jumping that needs to be looked at , it is fine as is. It is the fact that a good "juking" marine can out pace a skulk in combat due to a recent acceleration change in 240.
I don't know if you've played skulk since the patch but it's a little better than in 240 at least. Aside from that, practice practice practice!
This this this.
The jump at the end of a "juke" for extra distance is just an added bonus (and marines were doing it before 240). A marines strafe movement feels instant, and with quick directional changes + one jump skulks can be left seriously struggling to keep up with the marines movement (all while being shot at).
Not every marine can do it, but the ones who can, hot damn they are the epitome of frustrating, and go to show that in terms of combat agility a marine is right up there with the skulk, and thats just wrong imo. Sure the skulk and can run up the wall, but that's just giving the marine even more time to shoot at it.
I wouldnt propse a marine nerf, I'd like to see the skulk tweaked so it can actually keep up with the marines instant directional juking.
I think the real culprit here is marines can walkover the skulk, and even a crouched marine, as if it were any old step. I believe you can even walk over a skulk in a vent, may need testing.
Anyway, lowering this "stepsize," as it was named in counterstrike, will allow for better engagements and quality of life for skulks. (IMO)
Good marines can use this to win close combat... You wouldn't want marines not to stand a chance as soon as the distance was closed.
Marines should stand a chance at close range, but Skulks should have the advantage especially if they've got the drop on you and have full health when the fight starts. The hitreg fixes and slowdown mean that marines truly have the advantage at range now (before Skulks could hop down a corridor and hardly be hit by average marines), but they're also better at close range than before as well!
I'm happy with the new range advantage, it was needed. When a marine guns you down across a room you don't feel cheated, and if you manage to evade him by wall jumps and baiting to get close it feels really good. As a marine it feels good as well, the Skulks that get close you know was either because you screwed up your aim big time or they did really nice moves.
But the close range advantage takes things to far. It's really stressful and not fun to play against as a Skulk, and just feels cheap as a marine. Repeatedly jumping over Skulks turning midair and gunning them down before they can even turn around doesn't feel like something marines should be doing on a regular basis. Trying to kill a marine as he jumps all over the place, moving faster and more agile then you just makes you want to give up Skulk.
Because that just seems silly.
A marine who repeatedly jumps will quickly suffer a movement penalty.
A movement penalty will make a marine easier to kill.
A marine who repeatedly jumps would have been better off choosing a different movement pattern, because he is now dead.
A talented marine who carefully jumps while dodging and circle-strafing is displaying a reasonable degree of skill.
A talented marine who carefully jumps while dodging and circle-strafing intends to survive.
Skulking against a talented marine requires a comparably reasonable degree of skill.
Skulking against a talented marine requires careful timing and manipulation of both the marine and the environment.
A skulk has more movement options than the grounded marine, including the ability to utilize an entirely different axis.
The talented skulk intends to use its movement advantages, because it intends to kill the talented marine.
The end.
(The recent hotfix corrected the ground deceleration bug for skulks that was introduced during the Gorgeous Update. Skulks can now walljump effectively again. Marines still can't spam jumps. If a marine is out bobbing-and-weaving you, he's doing more than just spamming the space key.
Talented players of either type can decimate the other through intelligent play.
These aren't the balance issues you're looking for.
*waves hand slowly through the air*)
Learn to bite?
This would be the typical suggestion for marines that "can't aim".
But on top of that why shouldn't marines have a capability to dodge skulks?
This has always been true, to an extent I'm fine with it. My issue is that in the last two patches (140/141) the benefit marines get from doing this has massively increased, at the same time the benefit skilled Skulks got from jumping erratically down a corridor has been decreased.
I'm not even arguing this from a balance perspective, as has been pointed out elsewhere 140 seemed to give the best balance so far. The issue is that now playing as Skulks is significantly less fun and more stressful, I keep jumping into servers (and mostly having to go alien because the whole RR wants to go marines) and after 10 minutes of trying to catch up with marines jumping round my head just give up because it's not fun, it's just annoying. This seems to be shared by most of the people I play with, chat messages on both sides are full of "god damn Skulks suck now", "********** these ******* jumping marines!", "that guy just killed me by jumping around with a welder 0.o".
"That guy just killed me by jumping around with a welder" is more of a testiment to the OP range and hitcone of the welder. It does little damage, but you can hit with it VERY easily. Often a player will begin backing away from a marine trying to do a bite and then get out, but they misjudge the range and don't back out far enough or quickly enough causing them to take heaps of damage in the process.
I never liked "Marine jumping is OP" threads. There's already a fatigue system in place. And although you just have to wait for the cooldown to pass, it still prevents you from completely spamming jump, and it provides only limited dodging capability - comparing it to skulks movement ability in combat is an exaggeration. If it's really so hard to hit a marine, then you just need to learn more (as much as "just learn to skulk" may be an easy argument, it's still a valid on in this instance), as there's not a lot that can be done to limit marine's dodging without making it way too ridiculously easy for everybody else and lowering the skill ceiling for skulking. You however have stated your point a lot more politely and intellegently than previous threadstarters. I still disagree though, marine's jumping ability doesn't need nerfing.
I'm more impressed with how their aim stays perfect while flying through the air like that. Yay nanites!
Me personally, I very rarely ever jump when attacked unless the skulk is under my feet. Instead I prefer to aim and fire, which is surprisingly effective.
Hopping around also makes it harder to defend a fellow marine since that person is usually getting in the way of my shot. So while I don't like marine hopping, they are only hurting themselves by doing it. There is no real advantage over an alien, unless the alien was poorly skilled to begin with.
Movement options when dealing with skulks aren't really a matter of opinion or preference. If you're not actively trying to make the skulk miss you, you are playing badly. Crouching and essentially making yourself immobile is even more ridiculous. The absolute best thing you can do as a marine is maximize how long you're alive (by actively dodging), because not only do you get to put out more damage individually, it also greatly extends the effective life of anyone else who could be near you.
The idea that marines with good jumping movement are hurting themselves is one of the most absurd things I've ever read on this forum.
By creating, or raising the skill ceiling on any mechanic, you change the balance of player focus in all other regards (reduction). Human focus is finite, and making any one slice of the pie bigger, means smaller slices elsewhere, perhaps on a user's tactical approach to combat (a staple of team tactical gaming) .
My point is, there's no defined threshold, and some will argue more options are always good, but unfortunately reality is often too complex for such complete resolve. (I'm going to get a lot of disagrees for this neutral post I think).
All in all, I'd prefer movement mechanics remain simple to focus player development upon more tactical play, and while you might say adding a new mechanic will naturally lead to more tactical options (which is actually correct), I can only respond that there is a much deeper understanding available, look for it.
Indeed, before 240 jumping marines was a non-issue. After 240 the only thing that changed was Skulk movement, not marine movement. I don't really care which one gets changed again (marine nerf or Skulk changed back) as long as one of them is changed.
It seems to me like you need to experiment different playstyles if all it takes is jumping marines to kill you. I personally love marines that jump around as their only juking (super predictable and pretty expected if you ask me). It makes marine horizontal movement slow and predictable when they jump... how is that beneficial to the marine if the skulk can aim / track at all?
Actually, I can save you time experimenting new playstyles and give you a simple way to counter jumping marines.... Look up....
..............
IMO if the collision werent so crap all this hopping would not be near so frustrating. What makes it annoying is that more often then not you will phase through your enemies if you or they are jumping or moving which is no good in a game with so much melee combat. But its not like the devs care, collision during movement has been bad from day 1.
To repeat, the skulk is the problem, not marine movement.
So the solution is please tinker with skulk movement and leave marine movement code static for the moment. Players can only handle so much change to core gameplay at a time. If you really must do something then remove sprint - I'd rather lose a zero-skill turbo walk button than a skill-based dodge mechanism.
Only once skulk movement has been locked down into an improved state should you even consider changing marine movement/friction/air control.
Cheers.
I do agree that it's a skill thing, I'm still seeing really good Skulks completely decimate marine teams. It's just it seems to of ruined average Skulks and completely destroyed bad Skulks. Of course before 240 you pretty much just had the same problem on the marine side, good marines plowed their way through aliens while average and bad marines did pretty poorly. In hindsight it's clear that the marine play for the lower skill brackets was completely off for marines vs skulk (and probably went a long way to explaining the 70% win rate for aliens).
240/241 seems much more balanced in terms of win rates (I'm seeing alien and marine wins) but it's come at the expense of Skulk play. A lot of the marine wins I see the aliens get completely shut down in the first 5 minutes. From the games I've been in the one thing that has repeatedly been stated by the losing aliens is frustration at the marines jumping around and of course skill stacked teams.
Now as I said we clearly had a similar problem for marines before 240, a few good aliens could completely shut down the marine team. 240 has just flipped the skill multiplier around, and flipping it back again would not do any good. We either need to reduce the multiplier effect or at least change it in such a way that it's not quite so frustrating to lose to.
Furthermore, jumping only making aiming less accurate. Yeah I will try and 'avoid' the skulk, but hopping around is pointless. A skulk will always have the edge when in melee range, so if you let him get into melee range you are playing badly. If you play well shouldn't have to jump at all.
lol.
Jumping doesn't make good marines less accurate. Sorry. And if you're playing well as marine (ie: being aggressive) you'll end up in situations where skulks will be able to close distance from relatively safe vantage points. The ability to jump/dodge away buys extremely precious time for landing twitch shotgun shots/tracking LMG fire. More than that, it effectively increases the TTK on your group of marines by delaying whatever skulk is on you in the event you don't kill them.
And yes, there is a right way to play. You're not going to see any top level marine sit and crouch stupidly when a skulk is coming at him. That marine is going to try to be as evasive as possible. Your line of reasoning is flawed and indicative of a very low level of play.
Well, they do technically already have stamina, sprint is not indefinite. Anyway, I do believe it's almost needed for marines to jump around, I don't really like it. It’s just that there may be no alternative.
Do I do it? Not usually. Have I saved people lives because they did it? Yes, many times. Stupid is such a harsh word for that tactic.