They may voice their concerns, but it's better than the current method of surprising a lot of people with crap they don't like. If I read that they were going to nerf the skulk movement then I admittedly would have complained, and then upon release said "I told you so". But at least there's an ounce of hope that the devs will listen to the anger of the community and not rest assured that the testers will ensure that the game is enjoyable for all. Maybe's it's about time we see a different method of testing, like having a Natural Selection 2 Beta downloadable on Steam that contains the in-progress version of the next patch.
"i told you so!"... told us what exactly?
i just went on ns2 stats, selected no mods, pub play and build 240 =
did you tell us "darn this skulk nerf, now the win ratio is gonna be 50%!!!" ?? if so then my apologies.
From build 239 to 240:
(Bear in mind that at this point almost everyone was complaining that the aliens were overpowered.)
Since the release of build 240:
Please explain to us how you got 50:50. What we see from the pie charts is that the win/loss ratio has swapped between aliens and marines, that is all. Like I said, this patch has ruined the aliens. You can of course just go on in denial.
They may voice their concerns, but it's better than the current method of surprising a lot of people with crap they don't like. If I read that they were going to nerf the skulk movement then I admittedly would have complained, and then upon release said "I told you so". But at least there's an ounce of hope that the devs will listen to the anger of the community and not rest assured that the testers will ensure that the game is enjoyable for all. Maybe's it's about time we see a different method of testing, like having a Natural Selection 2 Beta downloadable on Steam that contains the in-progress version of the next patch.
"i told you so!"... told us what exactly?
i just went on ns2 stats, selected no mods, pub play and build 240 =
did you tell us "darn this skulk nerf, now the win ratio is gonna be 50%!!!" ?? if so then my apologies.
Excuse me the win loss ratio is 55% marines, 45% aliens. I just checked using only build 240 and no mods as well. Are you deliberately being deceptive?
Build 239 was 55% alien, 45% marine. That is a HUGE change. So knock off the nonsense.
i anticipated this exact same reply, which is why i screenshotted the entire page:
They may voice their concerns, but it's better than the current method of surprising a lot of people with crap they don't like. If I read that they were going to nerf the skulk movement then I admittedly would have complained, and then upon release said "I told you so". But at least there's an ounce of hope that the devs will listen to the anger of the community and not rest assured that the testers will ensure that the game is enjoyable for all. Maybe's it's about time we see a different method of testing, like having a Natural Selection 2 Beta downloadable on Steam that contains the in-progress version of the next patch.
"i told you so!"... told us what exactly?
i just went on ns2 stats, selected no mods, pub play and build 240 =
did you tell us "darn this skulk nerf, now the win ratio is gonna be 50%!!!" ?? if so then my apologies.
Excuse me the win loss ratio is 55% marines, 45% aliens. I just checked using only build 240 and no mods as well. Are you deliberately being deceptive?
Build 239 was 55% alien, 45% marine. That is a HUGE change. So knock off the nonsense.
i anticipated this exact same reply, which is why i screenshotted the entire page:
You're both right. Next to the percentage you can see how many rounds marines have won. The picture in question was taken while the sample size was smaller.
Once more games were added to the stats, it edged in to marine favor.
i believe he included modded servers, which i disqualified since modded servers can be anything from marine vs marine to balance test mods and don't fairly represent b240.
Use your brain. Those settings include mods that have nothing to do with modded servers and are just graphical enhancements like the wolverine claw.
And are you actually going to say that only 120 games are "non-modded" while more than a 1000 are on these modded servers that accurately show the horribly skewed balance from not only last patch but also from this patch? That only 120 games have been played on vanilla ns2? That 90% of players all players play on modded servers? That are somehow making marines win?
Arguments about win rate aside, turning the skulk in to a brick was just a crappy way of achieving "balance". Also if you look at competitive balance, it's definitely swung in favour of marines.
In build 239 the vanilla skulk vs vanilla marine was in a good place. In 240 it is in a terrible place, vastly favouring the marine in all scenarios bar being outnumbered.
Welcome to the community Antikaratekid. I have been playing NS2 since the beginning of the beta (and NS1) and I gotta tell you that I share your feeling. But to you as a new player I want to say that it hasn't been always this way, actually it started with the last patch as some people already claimed. NS2 is an awesome game with awesome devs, they will fix that stuff - it will take a while though, because the team is very small.
So here are three things I felt when checking 240 out:
- the client performance got worse
- marines are killing aliens damn fast (did the server performance get worse or did the hitreg improve?), often feeling like I am lagging and they are not
- somehow the skulk is slower. With the same moves as a marine that were good to do until now (smart jumping/dodging), you are almost impossible to hit in 240 for vanilla skulks. Somehow celerity feels faster though, but that may be due to the difference to the vanilla speed
There's more, but these points disturbed me the most. We just have to be patient. The game is worth it.
i believe he included modded servers, which i disqualified since modded servers can be anything from marine vs marine to balance test mods and don't fairly represent b240.
Yes I did, but I can promise you that auto-kick doesn't affect alien and marine win/loss ratios.
the match is often decided in the first 5-10 minutes, but this is pretty much the same for both marines and aliens. the explanation for longer duration alien wins is usually that aliens can't 'finish off' the marines until they get higher lifeforms/tech, where the marines can quite easily finish off the aliens with consistent pressure and don't need such a tech advantage.
when the match is NOT decided in 5-10 minutes, it's usually a sign that the teams are about equally skilled.
i still haven't have seen anything to suggest that balance is 'broken'. i was playing earlier today getting 1:1 kdr as skulk against a marine team with 5:1 kdr when i joined they already had shotgun, exo and jetpacks (marine win), and in two other games i managed to get about 5:1 kdr as skulk (both alien wins). this follows the pattern i've experienced since the release of b240 - it feels more fair than 239.
'Fair' is an illusion between 239 and 240. Take a close look at that second bar on wins by round length. And before you say it, yes I have included modded servers, however it is far better to have a larger sample size where effects of mods become more irrelevant as it's likely they would provide benefits either way especially when we're looking at a base mechanic. Ignore anything after halfway mark (35mins) of the Wins by Round Length graph as the size of these is statistically meaningless.
Why don't you guys just discuss here on the forums what you're planning for the next realease so that you can get feedback rather than shrouding each one in secrecy? It's not like some competitor is going to steal the ideas for the next patch causing UWE to go bankrupt...
then the whiners voice their concerns before even trying it?
not to mention the fact that many features will be withdrawn after unsuccessful testing phase. so you'd also have new whiners who whine about things being removed which were never actually added.
it's an impossible scenario.
They may voice their concerns, but it's better than the current method of surprising a lot of people with crap they don't like. If I read that they were going to nerf the skulk movement then I admittedly would have complained, and then upon release said "I told you so".
Considering that the brick-skulk came as a surprise to UWE as well (and yea, it should have been caught in PT, but large ambitions and fixed deadlines tends to lead to late changes ... and surprises. Ask Planetside 2 players about the non-functional tank main armament sometime...).
Perhaps consider rolling releases instead of releasing in sprints since you're a small team and the deadlines are causing problems, and because you have the software (Steam) that allows you to do this.
But at least there's an ounce of hope that the devs will listen to the anger of the community and not rest assured that the testers will ensure that the game is enjoyable for all. Maybe's it's about time we see a different method of testing, like having a Natural Selection 2 Beta downloadable on Steam that contains the in-progress version of the next patch.
Most in-progress versions are strictly unplayable, it usually takes a few days of pure bugfixing before playtesters can actually play through a full game after features have been added.
Adding a week of public beta for a new version has been tried, but you don't really gain much by it. If there are glaring bugs, the internal PT group usually finds them, and balancing requires much more feedback than you can get from a week of limited public PT.
So all you gain is complexity (ie, time and resources not spent on making the game better) and a weeks delay of the new release before finding out how things actually work.
Better to do as much testing as you can, release something without obvious bugs and then spend your time hotfixing it as soon as possible. It will sometimes lead to a few days of less-than-optimal gameplay, but all things considered ... it's the best you can get.
Have you tried this now that there is a huge community, or are you talking about when NS2 was in alpha/beta? With the number of current players the amount of feedback and discussions would be far greater, and anyway, anything fit for the testers would be fit for us. You could just open a "Testing" forum for everyone involved.
Every release comes with a new crash bug, but thankfully in 240 it happened only twice to me, but I can't see how hotfixing is a good idea... Current scenario: Release -> Complaints on forum -> Hotfix. Cleaner scenario: Open beta -> Release -> Complaints on forum (because there's bound to be). In fact, merge this with rolling releases and you'll have a smooth development cycle.
Why does the discussion always devolve to the meaningless winloss stats of a SUBSET of all servers who decide to run a ns2stats MOD?
There are much more "issues" that game balancing is about, like the relative progression of upgrades, sharp tech "stepping," the impact of different size games/servers, etc. etc. than "woo, aliens won 50% of the time."
I mean, that's like ignoring a really lengthy process/equation and just looking at one number at the equals sign.
It's easy to do, because it seems simple, but the way the game evolves and plays for however long the round is, isn't as simple as a single percentage. If it were, just leave it as it was at 50/50 and never ever tweak the game anymore, because it's perfect, right?...
Why does the discussion always devolve to the meaningless winloss stats of a SUBSET of all servers who decide to run a ns2stats MOD?
There are much more "issues" that game balancing is about, like the relative progression of upgrades, sharp tech "stepping," the impact of different size games/servers, etc. etc. than "woo, aliens won 50% of the time."
I mean, that's like ignoring a really lengthy process/equation and just looking at one number at the equals sign.
It's easy to do, because it seems simple, but the way the game evolves and plays for however long the round is, isn't as simple as a single percentage. If it were, just leave it as it was at 50/50 and never ever tweak the game anymore, because it's perfect, right?...
noone suggested anything of the sort...
there are ppl whining that alien were gimped in b240 and that it was broken. i merely explained that ns2stats shows 50%, which surprise surprise is a similar number to what hugh posted in the b241 log.
of course i want the game to continue to get better,.
Why does the discussion always devolve to the meaningless winloss stats of a SUBSET of all servers who decide to run a ns2stats MOD?
There are much more "issues" that game balancing is about, like the relative progression of upgrades, sharp tech "stepping," the impact of different size games/servers, etc. etc. than "woo, aliens won 50% of the time."
I mean, that's like ignoring a really lengthy process/equation and just looking at one number at the equals sign.
It's easy to do, because it seems simple, but the way the game evolves and plays for however long the round is, isn't as simple as a single percentage. If it were, just leave it as it was at 50/50 and never ever tweak the game anymore, because it's perfect, right?...
In statistics there is this thing called sampling. It works quite well, and it's what we're employing here. Also the win/loss ratios are very useful in detecting imbalance, which is what we're talking about, not whether the game is perfect. So yes, if the win/loss ratio were 50:50 then it doesn't mean the game is perfect, just that it's balanced, and that's our conversation.
I understand sampling, but then you should understand bias.
The servers where ns2stats is installed tend to be (among other biases):
- bigger than official servers
- managed by admins with different preferences
- running other possible mods, low possibility but there (case in point: voogru used to run RFK mod which is an INSANELY RADICAL modification to game balancing. not sure if they still do)
So yes, they show... something. But a good sample is random and representative of the entire population. I don't think ns2stats is. UWE's internal (private) statistics probably tell a different and more accurate story.
As far as the game being "balanced" when the W/L is 50:50, I kinda disagree.
Maybe the aliens lose badly unless fades are out (marine:skulk/gorge/lerk imbalance), and 50% of the games happen to make it to fades with the other 50% ending before fades are out (fade:marine,exo imbalance), and then when fades are out marines' counter is ineffective and they lose the other 50% of the games. That's a HYPOTHETICAL illustration (the game doesn't play this way), just to illustrate how the W/L ratio doesn't necessarily mean the game is "balanced."
The official servers are less representative of the population of played games than the larger servers are. The official servers are the smallest server size that is played with any significant frequency. Most games are played on larger servers.
... at least, that's the impression I get from looking at the server browser. I admit I have no hard stats to back up my impression. But do you not agree?
- managed by admins with different preferences
What does this mean? Why would this bias the win ratio?
- running other possible mods, low possibility but there (case in point: voogru used to run RFK mod which is an INSANELY RADICAL modification to game balancing. not sure if they still do)
Fair point. But in my experience, most modded servers aren't modded with anything other than administrative stuff. Gameplay remains stock. In fact, voogru is the only exception I know of. So I don't think that this point contributes much to any potential bias away from the "true" win ratio.
But a good sample is random and representative of the entire population. I don't think ns2stats is.
I'd want a stronger argument and/or evidence before drawing that conclusion.
I understand sampling, but then you should understand bias.
The servers where ns2stats is installed tend to be (among other biases):
- bigger than official servers
- managed by admins with different preferences
- running other possible mods, low possibility but there (case in point: voogru used to run RFK mod which is an INSANELY RADICAL modification to game balancing. not sure if they still do)
So yes, they show... something. But a good sample is random and representative of the entire population. I don't think ns2stats is. UWE's internal (private) statistics probably tell a different and more accurate story.
As far as the game being "balanced" when the W/L is 50:50, I kinda disagree.
Maybe the aliens lose badly unless fades are out (marine:skulk/gorge/lerk imbalance), and 50% of the games happen to make it to fades with the other 50% ending before fades are out (fade:marine,exo imbalance), and then when fades are out marines' counter is ineffective and they lose the other 50% of the games. That's a HYPOTHETICAL illustration (the game doesn't play this way), just to illustrate how the W/L ratio doesn't necessarily mean the game is "balanced."
While that is true, you should also remember the official size (6v6) is also RARELY played except on the official servers and in Competitive scene. There is higher chance you'll find 8v8+ servers than 6v6 servers and most pubs play on that size. I won't say NS2 stats is the best way to gauge balance or that 50/50 means a game is perfectly balanced, but it is the canary in the mine. Pre GORGEOUS, the win rate was 55% and 65 for pub and competitive respectably for aliens equalizing to a 60% win rate. We might not know why that is, but it does tell us there is something seriously wrong when you can say with confidence a side will win in a randomly picked NS match (assuming equal skilled players).
Please explain to us how you got 50:50. What we see from the pie charts is that the win/loss ratio has swapped between aliens and marines, that is all. Like I said, this patch has ruined the aliens.
Oh wow, I know I'm late to the party, but I really need to inject some sanity into this branch of the debate.
In patch 240 the balance was as close to exactly 50/50 as you could get. How do I know this? What magic? No magic, the lead developer posted the stats of ~25,000 games played on only build 240.
On the off chance you think this is a photoshop, original page is here.
So please, for the love of humanity, enough with the BS that somehow build 240 "ruined the aliens". The only thing patch 240 did was give NS2 the BEST BALANCE EVER since it was released. So please put the NS2stats away now. The definitive statistics are right above.
Please explain to us how you got 50:50. What we see from the pie charts is that the win/loss ratio has swapped between aliens and marines, that is all. Like I said, this patch has ruined the aliens.
Oh wow, I know I'm late to the party, but I really need to inject some sanity into this branch of the debate.
In patch 240 the balance was as close to exactly 50/50 as you could get. How do I know this? What magic? No magic, the lead developer posted the stats of ~25,000 games played on only build 240.
You're way late to the party, the bus has come and gone and we're all already dead and buried. Anyone who works with stats would know that it'd be foolish to look at one part of them and go "well that's exactly what we want to see", eg. 100% survival rate of patients using new medX for Cancer, except 90% chance they suffer from severe brain damage. But they survived right?
I explained why the 50/50 was fake balance, and confirmed by that other bloke from Australia (apparently works at UWE). The key is where those 50/50 wins were coming from.
Please explain to us how you got 50:50. What we see from the pie charts is that the win/loss ratio has swapped between aliens and marines, that is all. Like I said, this patch has ruined the aliens.
Oh wow, I know I'm late to the party, but I really need to inject some sanity into this branch of the debate.
In patch 240 the balance was as close to exactly 50/50 as you could get. How do I know this? What magic? No magic, the lead developer posted the stats of ~25,000 games played on only build 240.
You're way late to the party, the bus has come and gone and we're all already dead and buried. Anyone who works with stats would know that it'd be foolish to look at one part of them and go "well that's exactly what we want to see", eg. 100% survival rate of patients using new medX for Cancer, except 90% chance they suffer from severe brain damage. But they survived right?
I explained why the 50/50 was fake balance, and confirmed by that other bloke from Australia (apparently works at UWE). The key is where those 50/50 wins were coming from.
your explanation appears to suggest that marines should have a 50% of winning in under 10 minutes, but if the game goes on longer than 10 minutes then aliens should win 60-70%???
obviously we'd all like to see changes where marines aren't so strong in early game and aliens aren't so strong in late game. i'm sure UWE are aware of this conundrum, but you must agree that it's a careful process. we aren't in beta anymore - making radical changes to the game would cause an unwelcomed ruckus.
whenever charlie talks about balance, he sounds like a deity. he seems to know it better than anyone.
coincidentally the 'X team is imba in early game' pattern is exactly the same in sc2.
your explanation appears to suggest that marines should have a 50% of winning in under 10 minutes, but if the game goes on longer than 10 minutes then aliens should win 60-70%???
You're not really making much sense with that statement. Are you suggesting that I think aliens should win more often than marines?
Just because an average result of 50/50 might seem balanced, it doesn't mean it is. If you ignored the outlier results of the under 5-10, 10-25min games you'd probably notice the games are slightly biased towards aliens but being such a small/short-term data set from ns2stats it's close enough for now.
What outliers do tell is that there's something different, perhaps something that shouldn't be happening especially if it's so far removed from previous sets of data. Which is what we saw in the change in early-game wins <15mins.
Ideally we do want even balance for a chance for either side to win, however what makes a great game? Would you rather play the game where there's a good chance it'll only last for a short time and is essentially barrel shooting where you know where it's pointless to even try, or a game where both sides move through all the tech with a slightly higher chance one side is more likely to win than the other.
All I know is that a lot of us are having fun now in 241.
Please explain to us how you got 50:50. What we see from the pie charts is that the win/loss ratio has swapped between aliens and marines, that is all. Like I said, this patch has ruined the aliens.
Oh wow, I know I'm late to the party, but I really need to inject some sanity into this branch of the debate.
In patch 240 the balance was as close to exactly 50/50 as you could get. How do I know this? What magic? No magic, the lead developer posted the stats of ~25,000 games played on only build 240.
On the off chance you think this is a photoshop, original page is here.
So please, for the love of humanity, enough with the BS that somehow build 240 "ruined the aliens". The only thing patch 240 did was give NS2 the BEST BALANCE EVER since it was released. So please put the NS2stats away now. The definitive statistics are right above.
My experience of playing the game supports the NS2 stats and not those "definitive statistics", but I play on large servers (>=20 players) and which aren't on NS2 stats. What did the definitive statistics say about build 239? Was that also near 50:50? Because without a doubt the marines lost a lot more games than the aliens in that build, and I've experienced the reverse for build 240.
Build 241 is here now anyway but I've only played a few minutes of it so I cannot say anything about the gameplay yet. The skulk felt a lot better though, but we'll see.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Please explain to us how you got 50:50. What we see from the pie charts is that the win/loss ratio has swapped between aliens and marines, that is all. Like I said, this patch has ruined the aliens.
Oh wow, I know I'm late to the party, but I really need to inject some sanity into this branch of the debate.
In patch 240 the balance was as close to exactly 50/50 as you could get. How do I know this? What magic? No magic, the lead developer posted the stats of ~25,000 games played on only build 240.
You're way late to the party, the bus has come and gone and we're all already dead and buried. Anyone who works with stats would know that it'd be foolish to look at one part of them and go "well that's exactly what we want to see", eg. 100% survival rate of patients using new medX for Cancer, except 90% chance they suffer from severe brain damage. But they survived right?
Would it be fair of me to restate your position as "50/50 may well indicate balance, but it does not mean it's a good/fun game"?
Which is true - if we just wanted balance and didn't care for the game per se, we would all spend our time tossing coins. Much faster, cheaper and easier to balance.
And in this case, those 50/50 stats came at the cost of a really bad skulk-movement bug. While it has been an interesting experience (I would love to see the k/d ratio for the first five minutes and compare it with 239 and 241), I think we can all agree that sacrificing fun gameplay for balance is not a good idea.
So even if it turns out that fixing the skulk movement (as has been done in 241) causes gameplay to tilt back to the alien side, I think few people would argue that we should go back to the buggy skulk movement just to get more balance.
...I think we can all agree that sacrificing fun gameplay for balance is not a good idea.
Yes, 100% true. The brick skulk made the skulk no longer fun as well as made it difficult for aliens to win. I think many of us enjoyed playing as a fast skulk, hiding, causing damage, and then running away, but I always complained about the skulk being overpowered - fast, strong, and difficult to kill. I decided that of the three, the latter would be the best to change because changing the first two will make the skulk boring and almost useless. I really want to know, and no one has answered this, why skulk movement was nerfed and not skulk health (i.e. make it easier to kill)?
Please explain to us how you got 50:50. What we see from the pie charts is that the win/loss ratio has swapped between aliens and marines, that is all. Like I said, this patch has ruined the aliens.
Oh wow, I know I'm late to the party, but I really need to inject some sanity into this branch of the debate.
In patch 240 the balance was as close to exactly 50/50 as you could get. How do I know this? What magic? No magic, the lead developer posted the stats of ~25,000 games played on only build 240.
You're way late to the party, the bus has come and gone and we're all already dead and buried. Anyone who works with stats would know that it'd be foolish to look at one part of them and go "well that's exactly what we want to see", eg. 100% survival rate of patients using new medX for Cancer, except 90% chance they suffer from severe brain damage. But they survived right?
Would it be fair of me to restate your position as "50/50 may well indicate balance, but it does not mean it's a good/fun game"?
Which is true - if we just wanted balance and didn't care for the game per se, we would all spend our time tossing coins. Much faster, cheaper and easier to balance.
And in this case, those 50/50 stats came at the cost of a really bad skulk-movement bug. While it has been an interesting experience (I would love to see the k/d ratio for the first five minutes and compare it with 239 and 241), I think we can all agree that sacrificing fun gameplay for balance is not a good idea.
So even if it turns out that fixing the skulk movement (as has been done in 241) causes gameplay to tilt back to the alien side, I think few people would argue that we should go back to the buggy skulk movement just to get more balance.
I would just like to say, though I started NS2 aliens at an inopportune time, your responsiveness and vision of what is fair and fun along with quick hotfixes have made me much more optimistic. I've even recommended it to a few friends.
I'd much prefer very fun to use, fast skulks with low hp and a deadly bite compared to slow, tougher skulks. Without speed it should be like, hell yeah this is pretty fun to jump from wall to wall (doesn't happen so much), when speed kicks in the player should immediately punch the person next to them and yell now this is pod racing.
I'd much prefer very fun to use, fast skulks with low hp and a deadly bite compared to slow, tougher skulks. Without speed it should be like, hell yeah this is pretty fun to jump from wall to wall (doesn't happen so much), when speed kicks in the player should immediately punch the person next to them and yell now this is pod racing.
I am all for this idea! People love marines because they are so used to FPS's. Let em love skulking too!
Would it be fair of me to restate your position as "50/50 may well indicate balance, but it does not mean it's a good/fun game"
I think you basically summed up everything I've been saying in one line.
fun != balance, i don't think anyone disputed that sentiment in this thread.
the vibe i got from the OP and a few others was that of "marines are overpowered", to which the correct response is not "marines are more fun than aliens" but more suitably "no, marines are not overpowered". (as proved by the 50.7 statistic)
Comments
From build 239 to 240:
(Bear in mind that at this point almost everyone was complaining that the aliens were overpowered.)
Since the release of build 240:
Please explain to us how you got 50:50. What we see from the pie charts is that the win/loss ratio has swapped between aliens and marines, that is all. Like I said, this patch has ruined the aliens. You can of course just go on in denial.
i anticipated this exact same reply, which is why i screenshotted the entire page:
http://oi49.tinypic.com/2cfxl4i.jpg
See the post above yours. Case closed.
Once more games were added to the stats, it edged in to marine favor.
And are you actually going to say that only 120 games are "non-modded" while more than a 1000 are on these modded servers that accurately show the horribly skewed balance from not only last patch but also from this patch? That only 120 games have been played on vanilla ns2? That 90% of players all players play on modded servers? That are somehow making marines win?
You've turned your mind off.
In build 239 the vanilla skulk vs vanilla marine was in a good place. In 240 it is in a terrible place, vastly favouring the marine in all scenarios bar being outnumbered.
So here are three things I felt when checking 240 out:
- the client performance got worse
- marines are killing aliens damn fast (did the server performance get worse or did the hitreg improve?), often feeling like I am lagging and they are not
- somehow the skulk is slower. With the same moves as a marine that were good to do until now (smart jumping/dodging), you are almost impossible to hit in 240 for vanilla skulks. Somehow celerity feels faster though, but that may be due to the difference to the vanilla speed
There's more, but these points disturbed me the most. We just have to be patient. The game is worth it.
Yes I did, but I can promise you that auto-kick doesn't affect alien and marine win/loss ratios.
'Fair' is an illusion between 239 and 240. Take a close look at that second bar on wins by round length. And before you say it, yes I have included modded servers, however it is far better to have a larger sample size where effects of mods become more irrelevant as it's likely they would provide benefits either way especially when we're looking at a base mechanic. Ignore anything after halfway mark (35mins) of the Wins by Round Length graph as the size of these is statistically meaningless.
239:
240:
Perhaps consider rolling releases instead of releasing in sprints since you're a small team and the deadlines are causing problems, and because you have the software (Steam) that allows you to do this.
Have you tried this now that there is a huge community, or are you talking about when NS2 was in alpha/beta? With the number of current players the amount of feedback and discussions would be far greater, and anyway, anything fit for the testers would be fit for us. You could just open a "Testing" forum for everyone involved.
Every release comes with a new crash bug, but thankfully in 240 it happened only twice to me, but I can't see how hotfixing is a good idea... Current scenario: Release -> Complaints on forum -> Hotfix. Cleaner scenario: Open beta -> Release -> Complaints on forum (because there's bound to be). In fact, merge this with rolling releases and you'll have a smooth development cycle.
There are much more "issues" that game balancing is about, like the relative progression of upgrades, sharp tech "stepping," the impact of different size games/servers, etc. etc. than "woo, aliens won 50% of the time."
I mean, that's like ignoring a really lengthy process/equation and just looking at one number at the equals sign.
It's easy to do, because it seems simple, but the way the game evolves and plays for however long the round is, isn't as simple as a single percentage. If it were, just leave it as it was at 50/50 and never ever tweak the game anymore, because it's perfect, right?...
THANK YOU.
noone suggested anything of the sort...
there are ppl whining that alien were gimped in b240 and that it was broken. i merely explained that ns2stats shows 50%, which surprise surprise is a similar number to what hugh posted in the b241 log.
of course i want the game to continue to get better,.
In statistics there is this thing called sampling. It works quite well, and it's what we're employing here. Also the win/loss ratios are very useful in detecting imbalance, which is what we're talking about, not whether the game is perfect. So yes, if the win/loss ratio were 50:50 then it doesn't mean the game is perfect, just that it's balanced, and that's our conversation.
The servers where ns2stats is installed tend to be (among other biases):
- bigger than official servers
- managed by admins with different preferences
- running other possible mods, low possibility but there (case in point: voogru used to run RFK mod which is an INSANELY RADICAL modification to game balancing. not sure if they still do)
So yes, they show... something. But a good sample is random and representative of the entire population. I don't think ns2stats is. UWE's internal (private) statistics probably tell a different and more accurate story.
As far as the game being "balanced" when the W/L is 50:50, I kinda disagree.
Maybe the aliens lose badly unless fades are out (marine:skulk/gorge/lerk imbalance), and 50% of the games happen to make it to fades with the other 50% ending before fades are out (fade:marine,exo imbalance), and then when fades are out marines' counter is ineffective and they lose the other 50% of the games. That's a HYPOTHETICAL illustration (the game doesn't play this way), just to illustrate how the W/L ratio doesn't necessarily mean the game is "balanced."
... at least, that's the impression I get from looking at the server browser. I admit I have no hard stats to back up my impression. But do you not agree?
What does this mean? Why would this bias the win ratio?
Fair point. But in my experience, most modded servers aren't modded with anything other than administrative stuff. Gameplay remains stock. In fact, voogru is the only exception I know of. So I don't think that this point contributes much to any potential bias away from the "true" win ratio.
I'd want a stronger argument and/or evidence before drawing that conclusion.
p.s. I freaking love the video in your signature.
While that is true, you should also remember the official size (6v6) is also RARELY played except on the official servers and in Competitive scene. There is higher chance you'll find 8v8+ servers than 6v6 servers and most pubs play on that size. I won't say NS2 stats is the best way to gauge balance or that 50/50 means a game is perfectly balanced, but it is the canary in the mine. Pre GORGEOUS, the win rate was 55% and 65 for pub and competitive respectably for aliens equalizing to a 60% win rate. We might not know why that is, but it does tell us there is something seriously wrong when you can say with confidence a side will win in a randomly picked NS match (assuming equal skilled players).
In patch 240 the balance was as close to exactly 50/50 as you could get. How do I know this? What magic? No magic, the lead developer posted the stats of ~25,000 games played on only build 240.
On the off chance you think this is a photoshop, original page is here.
So please, for the love of humanity, enough with the BS that somehow build 240 "ruined the aliens". The only thing patch 240 did was give NS2 the BEST BALANCE EVER since it was released. So please put the NS2stats away now. The definitive statistics are right above.
You're way late to the party, the bus has come and gone and we're all already dead and buried.
I explained why the 50/50 was fake balance, and confirmed by that other bloke from Australia (apparently works at UWE). The key is where those 50/50 wins were coming from.
your explanation appears to suggest that marines should have a 50% of winning in under 10 minutes, but if the game goes on longer than 10 minutes then aliens should win 60-70%???
obviously we'd all like to see changes where marines aren't so strong in early game and aliens aren't so strong in late game. i'm sure UWE are aware of this conundrum, but you must agree that it's a careful process. we aren't in beta anymore - making radical changes to the game would cause an unwelcomed ruckus.
whenever charlie talks about balance, he sounds like a deity. he seems to know it better than anyone.
coincidentally the 'X team is imba in early game' pattern is exactly the same in sc2.
You're not really making much sense with that statement. Are you suggesting that I think aliens should win more often than marines?
Just because an average result of 50/50 might seem balanced, it doesn't mean it is. If you ignored the outlier results of the under 5-10, 10-25min games you'd probably notice the games are slightly biased towards aliens but being such a small/short-term data set from ns2stats it's close enough for now.
What outliers do tell is that there's something different, perhaps something that shouldn't be happening especially if it's so far removed from previous sets of data. Which is what we saw in the change in early-game wins <15mins.
Ideally we do want even balance for a chance for either side to win, however what makes a great game? Would you rather play the game where there's a good chance it'll only last for a short time and is essentially barrel shooting where you know where it's pointless to even try, or a game where both sides move through all the tech with a slightly higher chance one side is more likely to win than the other.
All I know is that a lot of us are having fun now in 241.
My experience of playing the game supports the NS2 stats and not those "definitive statistics", but I play on large servers (>=20 players) and which aren't on NS2 stats. What did the definitive statistics say about build 239? Was that also near 50:50? Because without a doubt the marines lost a lot more games than the aliens in that build, and I've experienced the reverse for build 240.
Build 241 is here now anyway but I've only played a few minutes of it so I cannot say anything about the gameplay yet. The skulk felt a lot better though, but we'll see.
Would it be fair of me to restate your position as "50/50 may well indicate balance, but it does not mean it's a good/fun game"?
Which is true - if we just wanted balance and didn't care for the game per se, we would all spend our time tossing coins. Much faster, cheaper and easier to balance.
And in this case, those 50/50 stats came at the cost of a really bad skulk-movement bug. While it has been an interesting experience (I would love to see the k/d ratio for the first five minutes and compare it with 239 and 241), I think we can all agree that sacrificing fun gameplay for balance is not a good idea.
So even if it turns out that fixing the skulk movement (as has been done in 241) causes gameplay to tilt back to the alien side, I think few people would argue that we should go back to the buggy skulk movement just to get more balance.
Yes, 100% true. The brick skulk made the skulk no longer fun as well as made it difficult for aliens to win. I think many of us enjoyed playing as a fast skulk, hiding, causing damage, and then running away, but I always complained about the skulk being overpowered - fast, strong, and difficult to kill. I decided that of the three, the latter would be the best to change because changing the first two will make the skulk boring and almost useless. I really want to know, and no one has answered this, why skulk movement was nerfed and not skulk health (i.e. make it easier to kill)?
I would just like to say, though I started NS2 aliens at an inopportune time, your responsiveness and vision of what is fair and fun along with quick hotfixes have made me much more optimistic. I've even recommended it to a few friends.
P.S. Bring parkour skulks back
I am all for this idea! People love marines because they are so used to FPS's. Let em love skulking too!
I think you basically summed up everything I've been saying in one line.
fun != balance, i don't think anyone disputed that sentiment in this thread.
the vibe i got from the OP and a few others was that of "marines are overpowered", to which the correct response is not "marines are more fun than aliens" but more suitably "no, marines are not overpowered". (as proved by the 50.7 statistic)