I quite enjoyed the beta build where armories didn't heal armor. I was able to actually get welded in pubs without having to go all the way back to base (which was no longer an option anyways).
but when commander's get a grasp of these changes, the use of robotics/mac will become standard and therefore ducking around the map asking for armor is never going to be a problem.
If comms start dropping early robotics factories to compensate for this change, then marine win rates will go down the drain. It's hard enough for an experienced comm to use a robotics factory effectively before late game, to have pub comms survive this is a longshot.
The problem with these balance playtests is that they are with skilled players. The 'average marine' has a hard enough time with the learning curve, do we really think making it harder will help?
If we make welders stock for all marines, then they can adapt. If they have to be purchased it *will* negatively impact balance. To what extent is debatable, but we can't suggest that making marines repeatedly shell out 5 res for welders - when they have a hard enough time holding down extractors - is going to go over well in pubs.
Again, it's not the mechanic that is the problem, it's the cost.
15 team resources for the robotics and 5 for the mac.... sure difficult if you're starved of resources aka losing, but if you get yourself some breathing room then it's more than generous.
i'm not talking early game either... currently you never see a robotics except a) block power node or b) need arcs cos aliens are turtling.
As I said in the other thread, I've always wanted this to happen but I also feel that welders should be made more accessible(i.e. cheaper) to compensate. The teamwork advantage of this change is lost somewhat when players are hesitant to spend their money on something that only benefits others, many of whom will not weld them in return. This problem didn't happen in NS1 because there was no personal res. My preference would be if welders were free to all marines after being researched, like hand grenades. Maybe nerf the weld rate a bit to compensate and/or increase other pres costs.
I agree with whoever said the welder has always felt out of place in NS2 - conceptually they're very close to the builder tool that everyone gets for free, and in gameplay terms their need is suppressed by armoury healing. If armoury healing is going away, then welders should be cheaper and/or more common, or even integrated into the marine's default capabilities (i.e. you could remove the welder entirely and let the builder tool repair armour and structures by holding use).
I agree that they feel out of place and redundant, however I don't believe they should be free. If they're free then you ALWAYS bring a welder because why not? There's no downside. Sure you lose your axe but you could always drop it (currently already commonplace). Additionally, it would just basically be a mobile armory. No cost for healing. It actually sounds worse to me than armories healing armor. I could get behind a welder cost REDUCTION if the need arises though.
I dont see how NS2 has at all been balanced around marines having full armor always. Fades do less dps, have lower health, and move slower than NS1. Skulks with leap are slower and larger. The shotgun does more damage per shot than NS1... Aliens in NS1 had focus and the game was still balanced without armories healing armor. The hit and run nature of every alien lifeform has always been balanced around wearing marines down. I have largely warned of how many marine inherient 'features' were actually extremely overpowered, and that the only real reason you saw winrates 60/40 for aliens was because of onos, skulk movement & respawn rates and gorges. Look at the impacts on winrates after a change to just one of those 3 elements, imagine if they all were fixed.
The melee vs ranged combat values (e.g. damage, movement, hitbox size, etc) have been balanced around marines being at full armor much of the time. Remove armory armor repairing and that value drops pretty significantly as armor welding will occur much less than armory armor repairing.
Also, NS1 wasn't particularly balanced outside of 6v6. I wish there were some stats I could point to, but I expect they would show favoring marines at <12 and aliens at >12.
i don't see why welders would need to be cheaper... welders are bought pretty often already for 5pres and you can practically share a single welder between everyone for the purpose of repairing.
if you make it so cheap that it's a nobrainer to buy then you might as well add welder to marine default kit.. and i don't like that idea.
I dont see how NS2 has at all been balanced around marines having full armor always. Fades do less dps, have lower health, and move slower than NS1. Skulks with leap are slower and larger. The shotgun does more damage per shot than NS1... Aliens in NS1 had focus and the game was still balanced without armories healing armor. The hit and run nature of every alien lifeform has always been balanced around wearing marines down. I have largely warned of how many marine inherient 'features' were actually extremely overpowered, and that the only real reason you saw winrates 60/40 for aliens was because of onos, skulk movement & respawn rates and gorges. Look at the impacts on winrates after a change to just one of those 3 elements, imagine if they all were fixed.
The melee vs ranged combat values (e.g. damage, movement, hitbox size, etc) have been balanced around marines being at full armor much of the time. Remove armory armor repairing and that value drops pretty significantly as armor welding will occur much less than armory armor repairing.
Also, NS1 wasn't particularly balanced outside of 6v6. I wish there were some stats I could point to, but I expect they would show favoring marines at <12 and aliens at >12.
One thing to remember is that most of this full armor combat happens within the vicinity of a phase gate. When it comes to sustaining a push in enemy territory - where most marine teams fall short - armory healing is of little advantage. Nerfing their defensive play opens up the possibility of buffing their offensive play if need be.
if you are looking at the pres cost of welders as a possible balance issue you’re looking at an issue that has almost 0 relevance in the grand scheme.
I think you're not fully following the point I'm trying to make. The economic cost is only one facet - like I said, if there is a cost, then there will be many who will be unwilling or unable to buy one. When that happens the marine team's viability has been weakened - all because of 5 pres.
People play this game with the ideal that they'll eventually get to 'play with better toys'. For aliens they can buy an evolution to another lifeform, and for marines they can buy weapons with different damage characteristics.
Now we're saying that a player needs to devote a chunk of their personal resources to something that does NOT provide them with any kind of improved gameplay enjoyment? Some may buy welders, but many will be selfish and they won't. When they don't, the marine team will suffer. When the marine team suffers, balance goes out the window. When balance goes out the window, the marine team will lose more often. Now we're back where we started with 60+% alien win rates - all because of a 5 pres welder. If people think something so small can't cause a ripple effect like this, talk with a developer. Talk with Charlie.
Games are about more than just numbers, they are about psychology. You need to take into account HOW people will play, and not just how the game plays. It sounds the same but the difference is massive. In NS1 the player never had to make the choice of buying a welder since he never had p-res or the ability to buy weapons. Now that he does, this becomes a factor. Does he pick the 'fun' item or the boring utility item?
Health (which is what armor is - effective health) is something you can't just toy with and expect a negligible balance impact. Without free welders the marines WILL end up being easier to kill overall, and that WILL imbalance the game. We can theorycraft all we like, but the reality is that we are proposing to charge marines for something they didn't have to pay for before. Basically the equivalent of a reusable medpack.
While comp games won't notice much of an impact, pub servers will. We have a game with no trainer and a massive learning curve, do we *really* need to make the game any more difficult by making marines pay to heal each other?
Again, it's not the 'remove ability to repair armor at armory' mechanic that I am talking about here. It's the COST of the welder that I feel will really damage the game if this change is implemented as is.
The thing is if you look at the current combat balance, its heavily marine sided. Most of the current alien classes rely on making marines miss shots - as hitreg and fps improve, those chances are getting smaller and smaller. The combat in NS2 has been marine favored for a long time - outside of the onos, like I said. Aliens mechanics revolve around hit and run, thats not really something that can be denied.
As for the costs of welders, they are already something that is required for marines to buy to keep key structures alive, and while the will be used more with this change, its not nearly as large as your trying to make it sound. In all truth - there are mechanics and requirements in NS2 currently that are 100 times more complicated, confusing and frustrating than welding to repair teammates... Look at skulk wallhop, fade doublejump + shadowstep, lerk poison bite, exo's insta gibbing aliens, etc....
I would be completely okay with this if you could weld your own armor, perhaps at a reduced recovery rate. Being the only welder in a marine fireteam sucks because you are always 2 hits away from death, despite carrying more pres equipment.
typically people are willing to support as long as the mechanic itself works fine. even as deflated as the gorge is from ns1, you still see a decent amount of gorges because hydras are still really good. I don't think there will need to be too many adjustments to the welder for people to realize that it will be just as useful, but I do recall it was recently nerfed so we'll have to see how it plays out before calling anything
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I think having purchased welders be more valuable would be beneficial for the game. The cost of the welder help would slow the flow of inevitable mass weapon/tech spam the game (in my opinion) currently suffers from.
The thing is if you look at the current combat balance, its heavily marine sided. Most of the current alien classes rely on making marines miss shots - as hitreg and fps improve, those chances are getting smaller and smaller.
But is that a reason to change welding? If there are problems with alien/marine balance, then it should be balanced in *spite* of the availability of the welder, not by making welders cost money. With respect, you're trying to have it both ways here. You're saying making welders cost money won't impact the marines, yet you also imply that because combat balance is "heavily marine sided" that this somehow justifies the change. Yet if people adapt to the change so that welder costs won't make a difference, then combat balance won't change. We'll be no better off.
As for the costs of welders, they are already something that is required for marines to buy to keep key structures alive, and while the will be used more with this change, its not nearly as large as your trying to make it sound.
Let's be honest here, in most games welding is pretty much an afterthought. Only in the occasional game when a CC or power node is almost down on the marine's last tech point do you ever see everyone running around with welders. I rarely ever find myself *needing* to by a welder, except end-game with ARCs/EXOs.
In all truth - there are mechanics and requirements in NS2 currently that are 100 times more complicated, confusing and frustrating than welding to repair teammates... Look at skulk wallhop, fade doublejump + shadowstep, lerk poison bite, exo's insta gibbing aliens, etc....
I don't dispute that one bit, you're absolutely right. But that is why I feel we should be trying to keep any further changes from making things any more complicated - things are complex enough already.
How about this, I've raised the case for why they should be free, why don't you raise case for why they should cost p-res. Please approach it from the side of why welders should cost money, and NOT why they shouldn't be free. Let's pretend that welders are free now. What would your justification be to suggest they should cost 5 p-res? Why add that cost to welders?
The thing is if you look at the current combat balance, its heavily marine sided. Most of the current alien classes rely on making marines miss shots - as hitreg and fps improve, those chances are getting smaller and smaller. The combat in NS2 has been marine favored for a long time - outside of the onos, like I said. Aliens mechanics revolve around hit and run, thats not really something that can be denied.
That's true to some extent, but I've started to question exactly how much better hitreg/performance will improve marine accuracy. I don't doubt if you have absolutely garbage fps (e.g. <20fps) your accuracy is going to improve with better performance, but I'm starting to suspect that there is a steep diminishing returns past that point. For example, here's a comparison of the team marine accuracy of Nexzil from a B228 scrim vs a B240 scrim (from ns2stats):
- B228 = ~15%
- B240 = ~14%
Of course, both the Nexzil lineup and their opponent are different, but I find it hard to believe that their marine accuracy would be effectively unchanged if hitreg/fps had a large effect on accuracy.
Also, the only alien classes that are effective with hit and run are the lerk and fade. The skulk has too little health to retreat from most encounters where it doesn't kill the marines. The gorge is too unwieldy to escape all but the most terrible marines. The onos is simply too big and too slow, especially when marines have jetpacks, to escape without the help of other aliens. Instead, UWE has compensated by giving skulks high damage bites and unpredictable movement, the gorge a variety of defensive, blocking, and healing abilities, and the onos a huge amount of health in addition to a disabling ability (stomp). Aliens are much more than just a collection of hit and run classes.
Without free welders the marines WILL end up being easier to kill overall, and that WILL imbalance the game. We can theorycraft all we like, but the reality is that we are proposing to charge marines for something they didn't have to pay for before. While comp games won't notice much of an impact, pub servers will.
This is all true, but I think there's a good fix, and @pendulum5 put it right out there:
I would be completely okay with this if you could weld your own armor, perhaps at a reduced recovery rate. Being the only welder in a marine fireteam sucks because you are always 2 hits away from death, despite carrying more pres equipment.
There it is. Make self-welding possible. It won't make any difference in comp games, but now pub players will happily, even enthusiastically, buy welders so that they can heal themselves. Better pub players will temper their purchases if they see lots of teammates carrying welders, and better teams and commanders will actually coordinate to make sure that strike teams have enough welders but not too many.
If welders are free, everyone gets one, and there's no gameplay involved because there's no downside and no decisions to make.
If welders are costly and only help your teammates, pub players won't buy enough of them and will lose more often as a result.
If welders are costly but can help you directly, pub players will buy too many (and thus lose more often by wasting resources) for a while, sometimes until the players learn the metagame a little better, and then they'll probably get it about right most of the time. All while still keeping the importance of the decision-making around whether or not to buy one - and more interestingly, who buys one and who doesn't.
Well theres a couple things regarding accuracy that are important - NS1 had faster, smaller skulks - players could hit > 50% accuracy there. As alien movement is changed (thats coming also), marine accuracy should improve. I think its also important to note that NS2Stats may not track accuracy completely accurately, as there were some games Ive seen people with over 85% accuracy, which in NS2 i dont really think is possible.
As for welders costing pRes, i think its important to keeping the shotgun ball at bay. Outside of welders, marines really only pickup mines early game, which leads to either massive mine spam, or snowballing shotguns. If you have 8 marines on a team with shotguns pushing a hive at 4 minutes in, all with free welders and some comm support, I really struggle to think of what aliens could do besides hoping to rush their base and get the obs. Marines need active pres sinks, which helps break up mass weapons. As for that impacting exos, I think there are other changes which would work well there to see exos reduced overall in power, and also reduced in pRes costs.
Marines need active pres sinks, which helps break up mass weapons. As for that impacting exos, I think there are other changes which would work well there to see exos reduced overall in power, and also reduced in pRes costs.
If we're going to put res sinks on marines, they need to go on aliens.
Right now the game is at almost perfect balance from a win/loss ratio based on internal stats. Check out this post from Charlie. Note how many GAMES that stat is from.
Yeah.
This welder change has the potential to cause a significant balance change. We already know there will be a fix for a skulk speed issue, and that may already tip the scales back the other way. Do we really want to dump this change on marines without a similar change to aliens?
Like I said before, it's not the mechanic that's the issue, it's the cost - which will affect balance. You admit it's a res sink and I agree. That's gonna drag down the marine economy, and right now things are looking good for balance. We need to keep this in balance. If marines get a res sink, lets give one to aliens. How about like in NS1 when they paid a couple res for each upgrade when they spawned? It worked in NS1 like the welders did, that would keep things even, would it not?
I don't get how armory armor healing can simultaneously lose marines the game and make aliens ineffective. Either they send marines back to base to heal or marines don't go back to base to heal. Making marines run back to base costs them more time than respawning in many cases.
I really don't see the point in taking armor healing off armories. More busy work is not appreciated, I don't find a glaring inadequacy in the marine tech (no way to repair your own armor) to be a meaningful 'teamplay' addition. If I get welded because I HAVE to, it's annoying, both on the receiving and giving ends. It is no more 'teamwork' than having to yell at the commander to drop an RT, I don't feel magically 'connected' to him through the deep emotional significance of him clicking near me like some sort of deranged born again theist, it is literally his job to do that, he has no other function, he either does it or doesn't.
If players choose to support each other, that is appreciated and adds to the teamwork atmosphere, if they are forced to do so by mechanics, that is exactly as emotionally significant as most things made out of mechanics.
If the commander is kind enough to drop medkits and ammo without me asking simply because it may make my life a touch easier, that is nice, I like that. If a teammate chooses to weld me because he thinks that may be helpful, that is also nice. I try to return the favor whenever I can, but 'teamwork' born entirely of necessity is no teamwork at all. It's simply self interest, and nothing more whatsoever. I don't want to work with you, I am forced to do so by the annoying-as-hell deficiencies in the game mechanics.
Trying to force teamwork is like locking a dozen people in a 5x5 meter box and telling them they won't be let out again until they all make friends.
I don't get how armory armor healing can simultaneously lose marines the game and make aliens ineffective. Either they send marines back to base to heal or marines don't go back to base to heal. Making marines run back to base costs them more time than respawning in many cases.
I really don't see the point in taking armor healing off armories. More busy work is not appreciated, I don't find a glaring inadequacy in the marine tech (no way to repair your own armor) to be a meaningful 'teamplay' addition. If I get welded because I HAVE to, it's annoying, both on the receiving and giving ends. It is no more 'teamwork' than having to yell at the commander to drop an RT, I don't feel magically 'connected' to him through the deep emotional significance of him clicking near me like some sort of deranged born again theist, it is literally his job to do that, he has no other function, he either does it or doesn't.
If players choose to support each other, that is appreciated and adds to the teamwork atmosphere, if they are forced to do so by mechanics, that is exactly as emotionally significant as most things made out of mechanics.
If the commander is kind enough to drop medkits and ammo without me asking simply because it may make my life a touch easier, that is nice, I like that. If a teammate chooses to weld me because he thinks that may be helpful, that is also nice. I try to return the favor whenever I can, but 'teamwork' born entirely of necessity is no teamwork at all. It's simply self interest, and nothing more whatsoever. I don't want to work with you, I am forced to do so by the annoying-as-hell deficiencies in the game mechanics.
Trying to force teamwork is like locking a dozen people in a 5x5 meter box and telling them they won't be let out again until they all make friends.
you are not forced. the marine commander can simply build a MAC which he can even move out to weld the marines in the field. its possible that the commander wont use MACs, but its also possible that the commander wont research any armor upgrades which causes a similar situation. even worse, the commander wont build an armory. you would either eject this commander, or try to teach him to use MACs / build an armory / get upgrades. in the ~30 games i played so far i didnt see this change being a problem at all. also, you call "healing each other" not being team work? i dont understand this logic, you are not forced to heal each other. its not like that you cant fire your weapon before you welded at least 100 points of armor...
The thing is if you look at the current combat balance, its heavily marine sided. Most of the current alien classes rely on making marines miss shots - as hitreg and fps improve, those chances are getting smaller and smaller.
But is that a reason to change welding? If there are problems with alien/marine balance, then it should be balanced in *spite* of the availability of the welder, not by making welders cost money. With respect, you're trying to have it both ways here. You're saying making welders cost money won't impact the marines, yet you also imply that because combat balance is "heavily marine sided" that this somehow justifies the change. Yet if people adapt to the change so that welder costs won't make a difference, then combat balance won't change. We'll be no better off.
As for the costs of welders, they are already something that is required for marines to buy to keep key structures alive, and while the will be used more with this change, its not nearly as large as your trying to make it sound.
Let's be honest here, in most games welding is pretty much an afterthought. Only in the occasional game when a CC or power node is almost down on the marine's last tech point do you ever see everyone running around with welders. I rarely ever find myself *needing* to by a welder, except end-game with ARCs/EXOs.
In all truth - there are mechanics and requirements in NS2 currently that are 100 times more complicated, confusing and frustrating than welding to repair teammates... Look at skulk wallhop, fade doublejump + shadowstep, lerk poison bite, exo's insta gibbing aliens, etc....
I don't dispute that one bit, you're absolutely right. But that is why I feel we should be trying to keep any further changes from making things any more complicated - things are complex enough already.
How about this, I've raised the case for why they should be free, why don't you raise case for why they should cost p-res. Please approach it from the side of why welders should cost money, and NOT why they shouldn't be free. Let's pretend that welders are free now. What would your justification be to suggest they should cost 5 p-res? Why add that cost to welders?
Why should Welders cost p-res? Gorges. Simple as that. Build/repair stuff faster, and heal your teammates. Sounds like a Gorge to me.
I presented this point and you ignored it all ready. I don't see the purpose in presenting points to you as you just ignore them.
I'm sorry but I don't see your drawn out way of saying 'I think Marines will waste their res on Welders' is accurate until you see how the changes actually affect people's habits in-game.
I don't think Welders will be more of a res sink for Marines than it is Gorges for Aliens.
Aliens did not pay for upgrades in NS1, that was removed. The main point about this also is other major balance changes that will occur with this change - changes that slow respawn rates and many other major changes. You cannot look at this change and say its going to break the perfect 50/50 balance of the game. We all know there is major issues with the game currently, issues that need to be resolved for both sides to have fair and enjoyable early, mid and late gameplay.
Aliens did not pay for upgrades in NS1, that was removed.
As for the aliens pay for upgrades, they did pay for upgrades at one point, and yes you're right it was removed. Just like the marines couldn't heal at the armory and needed the comm to drop a medpack every time to heal. That was removed too. They've removed all of the (personal) resource sinks. I just don't think it's wise to start adding them back in.
The main point about this also is other major balance changes that will occur with this change - changes that slow respawn rates and many other major changes. You cannot look at this change and say its going to break the perfect 50/50 balance of the game.
Oh I agree, by the time this change might reach the game - if it reaches it at all - things will already be very much different than they are now. It might be 60/40 for aliens, or maybe 60/40 for marines, who knows until we get there. My only point is that it is not realistic to think making this change won't come with an impact on marines.
Aliens did not pay for upgrades in NS1, that was removed.
As for the aliens pay for upgrades, they did pay for upgrades at one point, and yes you're right it was removed. Just like the marines couldn't heal at the armory and needed the comm to drop a medpack every time to heal. That was removed too. They've removed all of the (personal) resource sinks. I just don't think it's wise to start adding them back in.
The main point about this also is other major balance changes that will occur with this change - changes that slow respawn rates and many other major changes. You cannot look at this change and say its going to break the perfect 50/50 balance of the game.
Oh I agree, by the time this change might reach the game - if it reaches it at all - things will already be very much different than they are now. It might be 60/40 for aliens, or maybe 60/40 for marines, who knows until we get there. My only point is that it is not realistic to think making this change won't come with an impact on marines.
You do realize this change is being proposed to go in alongside a major overhaul of a dozen different things, right?
You do realize this change is being proposed to go in alongside a major overhaul of a dozen different things, right?
Of course. But so far I haven't seen any kind of resource sink for the aliens. Hey it's early. Who knows what will even make it into the game. If there is anything we have learned, it's that the devs don't make any game changes very quickly.
You do realize this change is being proposed to go in alongside a major overhaul of a dozen different things, right?
Of course. But so far I haven't seen any kind of resource sink for the aliens. Hey it's early. Who knows what will even make it into the game. If there is anything we have learned, it's that the devs don't make any game changes very quickly.
Aliens have a res sink, it's called lifeforms dying. What's so different about marine gear? Hell, half the time when marines die they don't even lose anything because their equipment gets recycled.
Comments
15 team resources for the robotics and 5 for the mac.... sure difficult if you're starved of resources aka losing, but if you get yourself some breathing room then it's more than generous.
i'm not talking early game either... currently you never see a robotics except a) block power node or b) need arcs cos aliens are turtling.
I agree that they feel out of place and redundant, however I don't believe they should be free. If they're free then you ALWAYS bring a welder because why not? There's no downside. Sure you lose your axe but you could always drop it (currently already commonplace). Additionally, it would just basically be a mobile armory. No cost for healing. It actually sounds worse to me than armories healing armor. I could get behind a welder cost REDUCTION if the need arises though.
Also, NS1 wasn't particularly balanced outside of 6v6. I wish there were some stats I could point to, but I expect they would show favoring marines at <12 and aliens at >12.
if you make it so cheap that it's a nobrainer to buy then you might as well add welder to marine default kit.. and i don't like that idea.
One thing to remember is that most of this full armor combat happens within the vicinity of a phase gate. When it comes to sustaining a push in enemy territory - where most marine teams fall short - armory healing is of little advantage. Nerfing their defensive play opens up the possibility of buffing their offensive play if need be.
People play this game with the ideal that they'll eventually get to 'play with better toys'. For aliens they can buy an evolution to another lifeform, and for marines they can buy weapons with different damage characteristics.
Now we're saying that a player needs to devote a chunk of their personal resources to something that does NOT provide them with any kind of improved gameplay enjoyment? Some may buy welders, but many will be selfish and they won't. When they don't, the marine team will suffer. When the marine team suffers, balance goes out the window. When balance goes out the window, the marine team will lose more often. Now we're back where we started with 60+% alien win rates - all because of a 5 pres welder. If people think something so small can't cause a ripple effect like this, talk with a developer. Talk with Charlie.
Games are about more than just numbers, they are about psychology. You need to take into account HOW people will play, and not just how the game plays. It sounds the same but the difference is massive. In NS1 the player never had to make the choice of buying a welder since he never had p-res or the ability to buy weapons. Now that he does, this becomes a factor. Does he pick the 'fun' item or the boring utility item?
Health (which is what armor is - effective health) is something you can't just toy with and expect a negligible balance impact. Without free welders the marines WILL end up being easier to kill overall, and that WILL imbalance the game. We can theorycraft all we like, but the reality is that we are proposing to charge marines for something they didn't have to pay for before. Basically the equivalent of a reusable medpack.
While comp games won't notice much of an impact, pub servers will. We have a game with no trainer and a massive learning curve, do we *really* need to make the game any more difficult by making marines pay to heal each other?
Again, it's not the 'remove ability to repair armor at armory' mechanic that I am talking about here. It's the COST of the welder that I feel will really damage the game if this change is implemented as is.
As for the costs of welders, they are already something that is required for marines to buy to keep key structures alive, and while the will be used more with this change, its not nearly as large as your trying to make it sound. In all truth - there are mechanics and requirements in NS2 currently that are 100 times more complicated, confusing and frustrating than welding to repair teammates... Look at skulk wallhop, fade doublejump + shadowstep, lerk poison bite, exo's insta gibbing aliens, etc....
Let's be honest here, in most games welding is pretty much an afterthought. Only in the occasional game when a CC or power node is almost down on the marine's last tech point do you ever see everyone running around with welders. I rarely ever find myself *needing* to by a welder, except end-game with ARCs/EXOs. I don't dispute that one bit, you're absolutely right. But that is why I feel we should be trying to keep any further changes from making things any more complicated - things are complex enough already.
How about this, I've raised the case for why they should be free, why don't you raise case for why they should cost p-res. Please approach it from the side of why welders should cost money, and NOT why they shouldn't be free. Let's pretend that welders are free now. What would your justification be to suggest they should cost 5 p-res? Why add that cost to welders?
- B228 = ~15%
- B240 = ~14%
Of course, both the Nexzil lineup and their opponent are different, but I find it hard to believe that their marine accuracy would be effectively unchanged if hitreg/fps had a large effect on accuracy.
Also, the only alien classes that are effective with hit and run are the lerk and fade. The skulk has too little health to retreat from most encounters where it doesn't kill the marines. The gorge is too unwieldy to escape all but the most terrible marines. The onos is simply too big and too slow, especially when marines have jetpacks, to escape without the help of other aliens. Instead, UWE has compensated by giving skulks high damage bites and unpredictable movement, the gorge a variety of defensive, blocking, and healing abilities, and the onos a huge amount of health in addition to a disabling ability (stomp). Aliens are much more than just a collection of hit and run classes.
There it is. Make self-welding possible. It won't make any difference in comp games, but now pub players will happily, even enthusiastically, buy welders so that they can heal themselves. Better pub players will temper their purchases if they see lots of teammates carrying welders, and better teams and commanders will actually coordinate to make sure that strike teams have enough welders but not too many.
If welders are free, everyone gets one, and there's no gameplay involved because there's no downside and no decisions to make.
If welders are costly and only help your teammates, pub players won't buy enough of them and will lose more often as a result.
If welders are costly but can help you directly, pub players will buy too many (and thus lose more often by wasting resources) for a while, sometimes until the players learn the metagame a little better, and then they'll probably get it about right most of the time. All while still keeping the importance of the decision-making around whether or not to buy one - and more interestingly, who buys one and who doesn't.
As for welders costing pRes, i think its important to keeping the shotgun ball at bay. Outside of welders, marines really only pickup mines early game, which leads to either massive mine spam, or snowballing shotguns. If you have 8 marines on a team with shotguns pushing a hive at 4 minutes in, all with free welders and some comm support, I really struggle to think of what aliens could do besides hoping to rush their base and get the obs. Marines need active pres sinks, which helps break up mass weapons. As for that impacting exos, I think there are other changes which would work well there to see exos reduced overall in power, and also reduced in pRes costs.
Which issue?
Right now the game is at almost perfect balance from a win/loss ratio based on internal stats. Check out this post from Charlie. Note how many GAMES that stat is from.
Yeah.
This welder change has the potential to cause a significant balance change. We already know there will be a fix for a skulk speed issue, and that may already tip the scales back the other way. Do we really want to dump this change on marines without a similar change to aliens?
Like I said before, it's not the mechanic that's the issue, it's the cost - which will affect balance. You admit it's a res sink and I agree. That's gonna drag down the marine economy, and right now things are looking good for balance. We need to keep this in balance. If marines get a res sink, lets give one to aliens. How about like in NS1 when they paid a couple res for each upgrade when they spawned? It worked in NS1 like the welders did, that would keep things even, would it not?
I really don't see the point in taking armor healing off armories. More busy work is not appreciated, I don't find a glaring inadequacy in the marine tech (no way to repair your own armor) to be a meaningful 'teamplay' addition. If I get welded because I HAVE to, it's annoying, both on the receiving and giving ends. It is no more 'teamwork' than having to yell at the commander to drop an RT, I don't feel magically 'connected' to him through the deep emotional significance of him clicking near me like some sort of deranged born again theist, it is literally his job to do that, he has no other function, he either does it or doesn't.
If players choose to support each other, that is appreciated and adds to the teamwork atmosphere, if they are forced to do so by mechanics, that is exactly as emotionally significant as most things made out of mechanics.
If the commander is kind enough to drop medkits and ammo without me asking simply because it may make my life a touch easier, that is nice, I like that. If a teammate chooses to weld me because he thinks that may be helpful, that is also nice. I try to return the favor whenever I can, but 'teamwork' born entirely of necessity is no teamwork at all. It's simply self interest, and nothing more whatsoever. I don't want to work with you, I am forced to do so by the annoying-as-hell deficiencies in the game mechanics.
Trying to force teamwork is like locking a dozen people in a 5x5 meter box and telling them they won't be let out again until they all make friends.
No no no no. It's not until you "make friends".
It's until you "destroy enemies".
you are not forced. the marine commander can simply build a MAC which he can even move out to weld the marines in the field. its possible that the commander wont use MACs, but its also possible that the commander wont research any armor upgrades which causes a similar situation. even worse, the commander wont build an armory. you would either eject this commander, or try to teach him to use MACs / build an armory / get upgrades. in the ~30 games i played so far i didnt see this change being a problem at all. also, you call "healing each other" not being team work? i dont understand this logic, you are not forced to heal each other. its not like that you cant fire your weapon before you welded at least 100 points of armor...
Why should Welders cost p-res? Gorges. Simple as that. Build/repair stuff faster, and heal your teammates. Sounds like a Gorge to me.
I presented this point and you ignored it all ready. I don't see the purpose in presenting points to you as you just ignore them.
I'm sorry but I don't see your drawn out way of saying 'I think Marines will waste their res on Welders' is accurate until you see how the changes actually affect people's habits in-game.
I don't think Welders will be more of a res sink for Marines than it is Gorges for Aliens.
You do realize this change is being proposed to go in alongside a major overhaul of a dozen different things, right?
Aliens have a res sink, it's called lifeforms dying. What's so different about marine gear? Hell, half the time when marines die they don't even lose anything because their equipment gets recycled.
Yeah, I know. There's the disagree button on your upper right.