There are several reasons why the slower skulk bug(?) is my favourite change of the whole patch, and none of them have anything to do with the skulk. Every reason relates directly to the commander and the impact he has on the game, which in my opinion, this tiny and seemingly unrelated change has had a huge affect on.
1. Instant expansion to multiple resource nodes is now a high risk strategy. I won't say skulks are completely useless against marines now, or that they have been changed in a way that makes them unplayable, but I will say this: their ability to rapidly traverse the map, and assault marines in a highly offensive manner has been reduced. This makes keeping a large amount of territory very difficult, and potentially detrimental to your teams overall expansion and improvement.
2. Rapid (immediate) upgrading has become a very viable option, if not a necessity. Once again, I won't say skulks are unplayable, but they certainly need assistance now. If you do want to play the rapid expansion game, you are going to need to give them a boost in order to defend the territory you take.
This point has 3 sub points for each hive path.
i) Carapace: Still the brute force method its always been. Still just as effective at putting your skulks ahead of the marines. A good choice, yet an expensive choice. Ultimately probably the most effective choice for marine/skulk combat, but gives you absolutely no way to remedy the slower map travel problem. This makes gorge tunnels a very real requirement, lest you find your skulks taking ages to defend the second hive when it is dropped.
ii) Celerity: Second prize in marine/skulk combat effectiveness. It doesn't simply put you at prepatch skulk level, it definitely puts you far ahead of that. Not as far as prepatch celerity did, that's a given, but it gives you an edge over the marine. For its lesser direct impact on combat, it restores the alien team close to its usual map coverage abilities. Eggs are also a big plus if you need them.
iii) Silence: In my opinion, currently the best immediate upgrade option for aliens. Stalking is a necessity with the new skulks, and that makes the alien teams slow to assault. Taking this completely removes that, and gives skulks a massive edge early on in the fight against marines. Still just as effective as it ever was prepatch, and the best part is that its cheap in comparison. While there is obviously no way taking an immediate upgrade would not slow down alien expansion, this choice does the least damage, and leaves you to continue almost unaffected from the investment. This choice obviously has late game implications
3. Gorge Tunnels are actually necessary, where as I don't think they ever would have been had skulks still had the speed they did before. Sure, they would have been nice to have, but the slower skulk speed makes me think "we really need tunnels". And I am willing to invest the resources in it, and typically other players are willing to as well. Not usual gorge players, mind you. They still need hydras in order to be effective. The requirement of gorge tunnels will usually see a lerk be sacrificed, or even a later fade.
To me, alot of this means that the commanders choices have a very real impact at the start of the game, which I don't believe they did pre patch.
I believe a lot of what you say makes sense. A lot of people play the game with the new patch for a few spins and then rag on it. It has not had enough time to settle in so we need to wait a bit.
Biggest thing for me is that now aliens need to work more. It's not all run n fun for them. The marines have to work hard and their commanders choices really impact how the game will unfold. The alien commander really could do do just about anything and as long as they were expanding it usually always gave aliens a good run regardless.
I like how the choices the alien commander makes now can sink them just like the marine commander.
It's not so much a challenge (well, for Marines the challenge seems to be gone) as it's a strange divide.
The start of the game is fine. Marines hit MUCH better, so you have to ambush more, use the walls, etc. That's not the problem. Some might argue that it's better than before.
The problem is you can't only fight by ambushing. When you actually need to attack Marines (that is, get a room back), you have no chance. Any group of 3+ Marines that are not in a tiny hallway with lots of cover? No chance. You can't even get to them (let's say you are a group of the same number of Skulks). Insta-kill Shotguns now rarely miss. When most of the Marine team has a 2:1 KDR or higher, you wonder what has happened (and these were far from good players). As a Marine, I find myself win 1v2 situations easily now. These used to be scary!
I found Aliens having 3 bases and more RTs than Marines and still being overwhelmed ON TWO FRONTS AT THE SAME TIME multiple times. As it is, as soon as anything is in front of one of your bases, the only hope you have is rushing one of their bases. It just seems you can't really fight back when you need to (you can't push them back, and when ARCs come the Hive is done. I believe the miserable bile bomb range plays a big part as well).
In several games the start looked good for Aliens (3 Hives, more RTs, nice harassment of the measly 2 non-base Extractors, no Harvesters lost yet!). I saw some excellent (and unexpected) defense and delaying of the Marine advance. In the end, Marines still won. The Commanders literally asked what we could have done. Nobody could tell. Is there even an answer?
The only guess I have is treat 3 minute, 40 res Hives as disposable, not even try to defend them, just rush a Marine base as this is the only thing that you can actually attack.
It just feels that you can't really fight Marines outside of early game ambush situations. Anything else, what can you do? Evade them and rush their base and hope it does something even as they waltz through all your bases?
It's not that playing Aliens is too hard or requires tons of teamwork and strategic behavior or whatever. It's not a L2P issue like the pre-240 Marine situation, where you always could tell WHY you lost (even if the solution might be hard, mostly Marines wasting time on strategically useless things). You just have no idea what you could or should have done with Aliens now.
Might be that Descent is very Marine biased though, as I've played most games on the new map (it's pretty!).
I love the patch. I don't approve of the map changes and the unintended acceleration bug has really killed my mobility (and consequently fun) as a Skulk (hopefully this will be hotfixed ASAP), but overall the games will be incredibly even when half the Alien team decides to stop Gorging and actually play aggressively (as Pre-Gorgeous).
Any group of 3+ Marines that are not in a tiny hallway with lots of cover? No chance. You can't even get to them (let's say you are a group of the same number of Skulks).
You can't blame everything on "half of Alien team is just trying out the Gorge abilities". They didn't. I know, I played these games. I wouldn't say "no idea what we should have done" if we had 50% Gorges.
Also, the reason why Aliens don't "play agressively" is because they can't. Which was my point
When you actually need to attack Marines (that is, get a room back), you have no chance. Any group of 3+ Marines that are not in a tiny hallway with lots of cover? No chance. You can't even get to them
Here's the thing... If attacking the marines isn't an option, then attack where the marines are NOT. This is why aliens have speed. While marines plod around the map, if you find they aren't in an assaultable location, then attack something of value to them.
Remember, killing marines is NOT the objective to this game. It's a means to an end. If marines are in a defensive position, the advantage goes to them by nature. They are better at defence. So instead of fighting against the odds, go after the undefended phase gate in one of their tech points. If they beacon then you've cost them 15 res *AND* pulled them off the front line. Or a few extractors. Or both. Be where they are not and you'll be able to do significant damage as a skulk.
There more more solutions to any given problem than just 'killing marines'. That's why NS is a strategy game as well as an FPS. A team needs to use both elements to win the game.
When you actually need to attack Marines (that is, get a room back), you have no chance. Any group of 3+ Marines that are not in a tiny hallway with lots of cover? No chance. You can't even get to them
Here's the thing... If attacking the marines isn't an option, then attack where the marines are NOT. This is why aliens have speed. While they plod around the map, if you find they aren't in an assaultable location, then attack something of value to them.
Remember, killing marines is NOT the objective to this game. It's a means to an end. If marines are in a defensive position, the advantage goes to them by nature. They are better at defence. So instead of fighting against the odds, go after the undefended phase gate in one of their tech points. If they beacon then you've cost them 15 res *AND* pulled them off the front line. Or a few extractors. Or both. Be where they are not and you'll be able to do significant damage as a skulk.
There more more solutions to any given problem than just 'killing marines'. That's why NS is a strategy game as well as an FPS. A team needs to use both elements to win the game.
So they are better at defense, better at offense. Skulks are relegated to avoiding battle and going where the marines are not?
This game needs balancing based around combat more than wins. Because now it's going to be the same thing it's always been just different methods, it will be aliens getting pushed up the bum, gorge tunnel to a good location behind enemy lines off infestation -> win. Just like how before it was get your bum paddelled against a good team only to win by constantly keeping them from winning and wearing them down until they are broken with bile bomb.
When you actually need to attack Marines (that is, get a room back), you have no chance. Any group of 3+ Marines that are not in a tiny hallway with lots of cover? No chance. You can't even get to them
Here's the thing... If attacking the marines isn't an option, then attack where the marines are NOT. This is why aliens have speed. While they plod around the map, if you find they aren't in an assaultable location, then attack something of value to them.
Remember, killing marines is NOT the objective to this game. It's a means to an end. If marines are in a defensive position, the advantage goes to them by nature. They are better at defence. So instead of fighting against the odds, go after the undefended phase gate in one of their tech points. If they beacon then you've cost them 15 res *AND* pulled them off the front line. Or a few extractors. Or both. Be where they are not and you'll be able to do significant damage as a skulk.
There more more solutions to any given problem than just 'killing marines'. That's why NS is a strategy game as well as an FPS. A team needs to use both elements to win the game.
lol.
Truly a fantastic theory of game balance. Except for the entire part where good marines can just crush your first harvesters and not die because skulks are beyond awful at combat right now.
At high and equal skill levels last patch, marines consistently beat skulks 1v1, but good skulks had enough combat ability to usually do some damage in the process. This patch is terrible to the point that you won't even damage a good marine most of the time, as you simply do not have the speed necessary to close the gap/dodge.
Asymmetry in this type of game makes sense when it comes to things like tactics and strategy. It also makes sense when it comes to methods and modes of attack. What doesn't make sense is making one side completely suck at early combat, when combat is absolutely integral to the enjoyability in the genre to begin with. There's about zero fun to be had playing with a cement brick that's guaranteed to lose any 1v1 situation against an evenly skilled player.
After 2 days of playing and about 15+ games, I have only seen 2 Marine wins. Different servers and mixes of players and im not seeing any Marine dominance due to any of the changes.
The Skulk feels very similar to 239 and if anything its the constant building (especially extractors) and having to defend, repair and re-build them that I feel is holding the marine game back. Veil is a prime example. No sooner have Skylights and Topo been built then Skulks are chewing them down forcing players straight back to defend them, stopping any expansion.
Anyway, the build is brand new, servers are full of new players and I cant believe people are complaining already. Give it a week at least to get used to the changes. As for all the drama queens in game with the constant moaning and the "goodbye cruel world" posts......grow up.
After 2 days of playing and about 15+ games, I have only seen 2 Marine wins. Different servers and mixes of players and im not seeing any Marine dominance due to any of the changes.
The Skulk feels very similar to 239 and if anything its the constant building (especially extractors) and having to defend, repair and re-build them that I feel is holding the marine game back. Veil is a prime example. No sooner have Skylights and Topo been built then Skulks are chewing them down forcing players straight back to defend them, stopping any expansion.
Anyway, the build is brand new, servers are full of new players and I cant believe people are complaining already. Give it a week at least to get used to the changes. As for all the drama queens in game with the constant moaning and the "goodbye cruel world" posts......grow up.
Sal
People complain. How do you get to this age and not understand that? And as far as I'm concerned, if people wish to express their dislike for a game before parting, that's better than them just saying FUCK THIS and leaving no feedback. I think if anyone needs to grow up, it's you.
When you actually need to attack Marines (that is, get a room back), you have no chance. Any group of 3+ Marines that are not in a tiny hallway with lots of cover? No chance. You can't even get to them
Here's the thing... If attacking the marines isn't an option, then attack where the marines are NOT. This is why aliens have speed. While they plod around the map, if you find they aren't in an assaultable location, then attack something of value to them.
Remember, killing marines is NOT the objective to this game. It's a means to an end. If marines are in a defensive position, the advantage goes to them by nature. They are better at defence. So instead of fighting against the odds, go after the undefended phase gate in one of their tech points. If they beacon then you've cost them 15 res *AND* pulled them off the front line. Or a few extractors. Or both. Be where they are not and you'll be able to do significant damage as a skulk.
There more more solutions to any given problem than just 'killing marines'. That's why NS is a strategy game as well as an FPS. A team needs to use both elements to win the game.
Whilst I sorta get your point this is a multiplayer game: If one team needs to stay away from the other team then you've made a multiplayer game where to win you need to avoid interaction with other players. Sneaky attacks on other players are good and fun, but avoidance of other players as a necessity sort of takes the fun away and--y'know--the point.
Player interaction should always be encouraged, the trick being to have the interaction under conditions favourable to you--which can and should include fleeing. Always fleeing combat, however, is boring. Not that I think it's at the point where skulks *need* t flee combat. But having to spend the first chunk of each match attacking inanimate objects until you're p.resed and upgraded enough to get a combat viable evolutions isn't very engaging, and probably wont help the game/game's community grow.
Truly a fantastic theory of game balance. Except for the entire part where good marines can just crush your first harvesters and not die because skulks are beyond awful at combat right now.
Last time I checked, skulk damage didn't decrease and marine damage didn't increase.
Skulks are relegated to avoiding battle and going where the marines are not?
If you are at a disadvantage, yeah. As a skulk your role will NOT be the same the entire game. Marines are less likely to be out alone in the later game. They are less likely to be out without upgraded weapons either. That means alien tactics need to change.
Guess what? That stock marine who just spawned at an IP isn't going to do too well alone against the fade running around outside his base either. His tactics have to change too or else he will die - and die often.
As the game progresses you need to change how you play. You need to adapt to the changing circumstances.
You can't expect to have the same viability as a solo stock unit on *EITHER* side as the game progresses. Your role has to change as the game progresses. That's why people have p-res.
Truly a fantastic theory of game balance. Except for the entire part where good marines can just crush your first harvesters and not die because skulks are beyond awful at combat right now.
Last time I checked, skulk damage didn't decrease and marine damage didn't increase.
Skulks are relegated to avoiding battle and going where the marines are not?
If you are at a disadvantage, yeah. As a skulk your role will NOT be the same the entire game. Marines are less likely to be out alone in the later game. They are less likely to be out without upgraded weapons either. That means alien tactics need to change.
Guess what? That stock marine who just spawned at an IP isn't going to do too well alone against the fade running around outside his base either. His tactics have to change too or else he will die - and die often.
As the game progresses you need to change how you play. You need to adapt to the changing circumstances.
You can't expect to have the same viability as a solo stock unit on *EITHER* side as the game progresses. Your role has to change as the game progresses. That's why people have p-res.
Huh? Why are you pitting an un-upgraded marine against a fade? Why not a shotgun, or a JP + shotgun? And mines that have been out for a while from everyone and their mom?
I really don't even know how to respond to this tangent you went off on. You won't have P-Res if you get dominated before you can get any.
No offense to the OP, but equivocating the skulk changes to a "higher challenge" is the same thing as being told if you want more difficulty in pac-man to put on blinders. The cementsyndrome (I'm stealing your cement skulk comment James) isn't fun, intuitive, or do anything for the skill ceiling. It's just a bad change thrown in for "reasons"
im not against the idea of making the skulk require a bit more thought rather than just mashing jump along walls, however the total loss of momentum does feel a bit jarring. I suggest that the friction should come in linearly, or even exponentially - that way the loss of speed is more gradual - meaning that good walljumpers can still maintain momentum whilst not making it so easy as it was before.
another aspect that of this that i quite like - it makes the celerity first upgrade path potentially worthwhile, whereas before it wasnt - walljumping was super effective and more than fast enough - and celerity disables when you get hit aswell. remove the disabling when hit and i think it would be really interesting.
to sum up - the changes are well intentioned, a bit more polish needed, and going for the middle ground might be a satisfactory compromise for everyone.
You can't expect to have the same viability as a solo stock unit on *EITHER* side as the game progresses. Your role has to change as the game progresses. That's why people have p-res.
Huh? Why are you pitting an un-upgraded marine against a fade? Why not a shotgun, or a JP + shotgun?
Since a stock skulk is equivalent to a stock marine. When I say stock that does NOT mean he doesn't have upgrades like armor/weapon for the marine and carapace/celerity for the skulk. What I mean by stock is that the unit has not spent any p-res on upgrades. A marine that buys a 50 res EXO is not stock. Neither is an alien that buys a 50 res fade.
But if you are spawning as a BASE unit, then you will not be as competitive against advanced units. That's why tactics become that much more important in the later game. That stock marine isn't going to own a fade solo any more than a stock skulk is going to own a JP/shottie marine. The stock player is at a disadvantage. Tactics and skill now play a much bigger role in the outcome.
@Savant
Yes I see what you mean, but like the people who answered you said: there's a difference between not doing something you shouldn't be doing (aka L2P Marine before 240), and having NO way to do something you eventually have to do.
You can't expect Skulks to only chew on buildings when a) Skulks need longer to get there because of map distances (it's the enemy territory/base after all) b) Marines can just phase in AND even beacon (and phase right back where the came from).. the times aren't even. Some time in the game you HAVE to attack Marines offensively, or at least be able to defend your Harvesters and bases.
You can't expect to have the same viability as a solo stock unit on *EITHER* side as the game progresses. Your role has to change as the game progresses. That's why people have p-res.
Huh? Why are you pitting an un-upgraded marine against a fade? Why not a shotgun, or a JP + shotgun?
Since a stock skulk is equivalent to a stock marine. When I say stock that does NOT mean he doesn't have upgrades like armor/weapon for the marine and carapace/celerity for the skulk. What I mean by stock is that the unit has not spent any p-res on upgrades. A marine that buys a 50 res EXO is not stock. Neither is an alien that buys a 50 res fade.
But if you are spawning as a BASE unit, then you will not be as competitive against advanced units. That's why tactics become that much more important in the later game. That stock marine isn't going to own a fade solo any more than a stock skulk is going to own a JP/shottie marine. The stock player is at a disadvantage. Tactics and skill now play a much bigger role in the outcome.
I really don't mean to be rude but you're just sort of arguing with yourself. I do not have any clue why you are going on about 'stock' vs advanced. That's not the issue, that is completely and utterly irrelevant. These discussion are (obviously?) centered around the idea that you are on a side when the game starts, therefore you are not fighting a fade as a LMG marine with nothing.
It's the whole getting to fade part that is the issue, you understand? If marines can dominate skulks early game (they already did), it's much more difficult to get to that fade. And when you do get to that fade, they've already got JPs, upgrades, shotguns, or sure as hell are close. But aliens still will be able to win in the same stupid fashion as before, instead of it being bile rushes, it'll be gorge tunnels off infestation behind enemy lines and keeping marines from being able to win in this fashion.
This is stupid gameplay IMO. I'd prefer they balanced the game around combat a little more rather than some bizarre method of winning regardless of the ability to win the combat side of the game.
What a terrible patch from a balancing perspective.
Skulk is practically useless from an ambushing perspective now. What good is waiting around the corner ready to ambush if it takes you five years to reach the marines? By that time you're already dead. The entire movement just feels sluggish and heavy. And it's not just Skulk, maybe it's a placebo effect, but all of the other aliens, moreso Gorge too, feel more sluggish and heavy to move about.
Camouflage is a useless upgrade now. What's the point of going invisible if you have to stand still? Even an average Marine commander could counter Camouflage by placing observatories in strategic positions; it's not like they cost anything significant. Also, since Camouflage cannot be taken with Silence Marines could always listen for aliens on walls.
Huge nerf for Gorges. -20% Bile damage and considerably reduced range? The argument is, what, exactly? "Bile did too much damage and was OP". Really? By the time you have bile bomb the Marines are likely to have shotguns, mines and possibly jetpacks. If you're going off to bile some buildings then a Gorge has a significant risk of dying. And now, because they have to get pretty much point blank close to them, they're even more likely to die. This isn't a balancing fix, this is just a plain outright nerf for no reason.
Marines can use Gorge tunnels? Really?! I missed the part where aliens could use phase gates to a strategic advantage by teleporting to other marine bases and planning an additional attack. A Gorge tunnel just feels like another doorway that must be defended. Stupid, honestly, IMO.
This isn't making it "more challenging" to play alien. Who comes up with this stuff? What they've done is nerfed the Aliens AND buffed the Marines. What they should have done is buffed the Marines only.
What a terrible patch from a balancing perspective.
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Huge nerf for Gorges. -20% Bile damage and considerably reduced range? The argument is, what, exactly? "Bile did too much damage and was OP". Really? By the time you have bile bomb the Marines are likely to have shotguns, mines and possibly jetpacks. If you're going off to bile some buildings then a Gorge has a significant risk of dying. And now, because they have to get pretty much point blank close to them, they're even more likely to die. This isn't a balancing fix, this is just a plain outright nerf for no reason.
Gorge bile was way too easy. I still have gorges in vent sending bile into a base from too far away and we don't have jet packs. I have gone gorge and I'm still able to bile down a power node... but not alone anymore. Now the reward is commensurate with the risk.
They're not though. First off, skulk speed is the same. If you were to pace yourself running in a straight line before the patch, you'd find that you move at exactly the same speed now. The difference is not the speed, but how you use it.
Let's talk in a week, and I can assure you that we'll see a big difference than from a mere 24 hours after the patch has dropped.
Though I am not for populism the number of disagrees on your comment might have something to it.
Whilst running speed is the same, MOMENTUM is not - and that is the issue.
I'm all for balancing the game out by nerfing the aliens, but the momentum nerf is not the way I'd like it to be. My main problem killing skulks as a marine was the awful hit detection, which UWE seems to have sorted out to some extent.
In rooms like Repair on Mineshaft I am like a brick lol. It's no different if you're in a place like Cafe where you have pillars all over the place, but in more open spaces...good luck
As for team work and ambushing - much tougher to get these to work on pubs.
The problem with ambushes is that you need time for them. What am I to do? Sit outside whilst they take a minute to set up an entire base? What if my fellow skulks don't listen? Tough shizzle for me?
I see arguments on both sides, and quite frankly I don't mind the change THAT much, though...
the OP is a bit provocative, but i believe it was aimed at the handful of people posting that it's 'impossible to kill marines' or 'skulks are rubbish' [since the update].
that's pathetic hyperbole. even including the sharpened skulk hitbox change; i've barely noticed any change in general skulk performance in the ~12 hours i've played of b240.
I strongly feel like the game is way more balanced as of right now. Yeah, the skulks are "harder" to play, but I am still getting a great number of kills with them. I've played TONS of games since the patch, and both the aliens and the marines have won a good amount of times alike.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited March 2013
Important to note that bb is not simply "%20 less damage",, it does the same total damage, just spread out/ less on singular targets.
This lessens the effectiveness of the "single base sniping gorge"
And I think almost everyone can agree a subtle (%16) decrease in range was needed, as there wasn't much risk for gorges, previously.
Important to note that bb is not simply "%20 less damage",, it does the same total damage, just spread out/ less on singular targets.
This lessens the effectiveness of the "single base sniping gorge"
And I think almost everyone can agree a subtle (%16) decrease in range was needed, as there wasn't much risk for gorges, previously.
i don't understand 'less on singular targets' if it's the same total damage.
hitting 1 exosuit versus hitting 2 exosuits, how would the damage vary from b239?
Well, when I first used the Skulk after the patch, I quickly realized something was different, so a messed about with it for a few rounds, realizing the changes. Then after that it was backed to how it used to be for me.... all I had to do is change my play style, wall jump, sneak, ambush more, I just feel with the Skulk that rushing isn't a option as such, also I see alot of bad playing with the Skulk like not hiding behide things when getting shot, or just charging at the marines, also leap not used properly, very effective if ambushing.
Kinda agree with the OP, people just need to learn the play-style, also it just encourages more teamwork.
Comments
1. Instant expansion to multiple resource nodes is now a high risk strategy. I won't say skulks are completely useless against marines now, or that they have been changed in a way that makes them unplayable, but I will say this: their ability to rapidly traverse the map, and assault marines in a highly offensive manner has been reduced. This makes keeping a large amount of territory very difficult, and potentially detrimental to your teams overall expansion and improvement.
2. Rapid (immediate) upgrading has become a very viable option, if not a necessity. Once again, I won't say skulks are unplayable, but they certainly need assistance now. If you do want to play the rapid expansion game, you are going to need to give them a boost in order to defend the territory you take.
This point has 3 sub points for each hive path.
i) Carapace: Still the brute force method its always been. Still just as effective at putting your skulks ahead of the marines. A good choice, yet an expensive choice. Ultimately probably the most effective choice for marine/skulk combat, but gives you absolutely no way to remedy the slower map travel problem. This makes gorge tunnels a very real requirement, lest you find your skulks taking ages to defend the second hive when it is dropped.
ii) Celerity: Second prize in marine/skulk combat effectiveness. It doesn't simply put you at prepatch skulk level, it definitely puts you far ahead of that. Not as far as prepatch celerity did, that's a given, but it gives you an edge over the marine. For its lesser direct impact on combat, it restores the alien team close to its usual map coverage abilities. Eggs are also a big plus if you need them.
iii) Silence: In my opinion, currently the best immediate upgrade option for aliens. Stalking is a necessity with the new skulks, and that makes the alien teams slow to assault. Taking this completely removes that, and gives skulks a massive edge early on in the fight against marines. Still just as effective as it ever was prepatch, and the best part is that its cheap in comparison. While there is obviously no way taking an immediate upgrade would not slow down alien expansion, this choice does the least damage, and leaves you to continue almost unaffected from the investment. This choice obviously has late game implications
3. Gorge Tunnels are actually necessary, where as I don't think they ever would have been had skulks still had the speed they did before. Sure, they would have been nice to have, but the slower skulk speed makes me think "we really need tunnels". And I am willing to invest the resources in it, and typically other players are willing to as well. Not usual gorge players, mind you. They still need hydras in order to be effective. The requirement of gorge tunnels will usually see a lerk be sacrificed, or even a later fade.
To me, alot of this means that the commanders choices have a very real impact at the start of the game, which I don't believe they did pre patch.
Biggest thing for me is that now aliens need to work more. It's not all run n fun for them. The marines have to work hard and their commanders choices really impact how the game will unfold. The alien commander really could do do just about anything and as long as they were expanding it usually always gave aliens a good run regardless.
I like how the choices the alien commander makes now can sink them just like the marine commander.
Excellent job UWE!
lol
OoOoOoOoOoOoOo
Okay, I'm done.
The start of the game is fine. Marines hit MUCH better, so you have to ambush more, use the walls, etc. That's not the problem. Some might argue that it's better than before.
The problem is you can't only fight by ambushing. When you actually need to attack Marines (that is, get a room back), you have no chance. Any group of 3+ Marines that are not in a tiny hallway with lots of cover? No chance. You can't even get to them (let's say you are a group of the same number of Skulks). Insta-kill Shotguns now rarely miss. When most of the Marine team has a 2:1 KDR or higher, you wonder what has happened (and these were far from good players). As a Marine, I find myself win 1v2 situations easily now. These used to be scary!
I found Aliens having 3 bases and more RTs than Marines and still being overwhelmed ON TWO FRONTS AT THE SAME TIME multiple times. As it is, as soon as anything is in front of one of your bases, the only hope you have is rushing one of their bases. It just seems you can't really fight back when you need to (you can't push them back, and when ARCs come the Hive is done. I believe the miserable bile bomb range plays a big part as well).
In several games the start looked good for Aliens (3 Hives, more RTs, nice harassment of the measly 2 non-base Extractors, no Harvesters lost yet!). I saw some excellent (and unexpected) defense and delaying of the Marine advance. In the end, Marines still won. The Commanders literally asked what we could have done. Nobody could tell. Is there even an answer?
The only guess I have is treat 3 minute, 40 res Hives as disposable, not even try to defend them, just rush a Marine base as this is the only thing that you can actually attack.
It just feels that you can't really fight Marines outside of early game ambush situations. Anything else, what can you do? Evade them and rush their base and hope it does something even as they waltz through all your bases?
It's not that playing Aliens is too hard or requires tons of teamwork and strategic behavior or whatever. It's not a L2P issue like the pre-240 Marine situation, where you always could tell WHY you lost (even if the solution might be hard, mostly Marines wasting time on strategically useless things). You just have no idea what you could or should have done with Aliens now.
Might be that Descent is very Marine biased though, as I've played most games on the new map (it's pretty!).
Also, the reason why Aliens don't "play agressively" is because they can't. Which was my point
Remember, killing marines is NOT the objective to this game. It's a means to an end. If marines are in a defensive position, the advantage goes to them by nature. They are better at defence. So instead of fighting against the odds, go after the undefended phase gate in one of their tech points. If they beacon then you've cost them 15 res *AND* pulled them off the front line. Or a few extractors. Or both. Be where they are not and you'll be able to do significant damage as a skulk.
There more more solutions to any given problem than just 'killing marines'. That's why NS is a strategy game as well as an FPS. A team needs to use both elements to win the game.
So they are better at defense, better at offense. Skulks are relegated to avoiding battle and going where the marines are not?
This game needs balancing based around combat more than wins. Because now it's going to be the same thing it's always been just different methods, it will be aliens getting pushed up the bum, gorge tunnel to a good location behind enemy lines off infestation -> win. Just like how before it was get your bum paddelled against a good team only to win by constantly keeping them from winning and wearing them down until they are broken with bile bomb.
lol.
Truly a fantastic theory of game balance. Except for the entire part where good marines can just crush your first harvesters and not die because skulks are beyond awful at combat right now.
At high and equal skill levels last patch, marines consistently beat skulks 1v1, but good skulks had enough combat ability to usually do some damage in the process. This patch is terrible to the point that you won't even damage a good marine most of the time, as you simply do not have the speed necessary to close the gap/dodge.
Asymmetry in this type of game makes sense when it comes to things like tactics and strategy. It also makes sense when it comes to methods and modes of attack. What doesn't make sense is making one side completely suck at early combat, when combat is absolutely integral to the enjoyability in the genre to begin with. There's about zero fun to be had playing with a cement brick that's guaranteed to lose any 1v1 situation against an evenly skilled player.
The Skulk feels very similar to 239 and if anything its the constant building (especially extractors) and having to defend, repair and re-build them that I feel is holding the marine game back. Veil is a prime example. No sooner have Skylights and Topo been built then Skulks are chewing them down forcing players straight back to defend them, stopping any expansion.
Anyway, the build is brand new, servers are full of new players and I cant believe people are complaining already. Give it a week at least to get used to the changes. As for all the drama queens in game with the constant moaning and the "goodbye cruel world" posts......grow up.
Sal
People complain. How do you get to this age and not understand that? And as far as I'm concerned, if people wish to express their dislike for a game before parting, that's better than them just saying FUCK THIS and leaving no feedback. I think if anyone needs to grow up, it's you.
Whilst I sorta get your point this is a multiplayer game: If one team needs to stay away from the other team then you've made a multiplayer game where to win you need to avoid interaction with other players. Sneaky attacks on other players are good and fun, but avoidance of other players as a necessity sort of takes the fun away and--y'know--the point.
Player interaction should always be encouraged, the trick being to have the interaction under conditions favourable to you--which can and should include fleeing. Always fleeing combat, however, is boring. Not that I think it's at the point where skulks *need* t flee combat. But having to spend the first chunk of each match attacking inanimate objects until you're p.resed and upgraded enough to get a combat viable evolutions isn't very engaging, and probably wont help the game/game's community grow.
If you are at a disadvantage, yeah. As a skulk your role will NOT be the same the entire game. Marines are less likely to be out alone in the later game. They are less likely to be out without upgraded weapons either. That means alien tactics need to change.
Guess what? That stock marine who just spawned at an IP isn't going to do too well alone against the fade running around outside his base either. His tactics have to change too or else he will die - and die often.
As the game progresses you need to change how you play. You need to adapt to the changing circumstances.
You can't expect to have the same viability as a solo stock unit on *EITHER* side as the game progresses. Your role has to change as the game progresses. That's why people have p-res.
Huh? Why are you pitting an un-upgraded marine against a fade? Why not a shotgun, or a JP + shotgun? And mines that have been out for a while from everyone and their mom?
I really don't even know how to respond to this tangent you went off on. You won't have P-Res if you get dominated before you can get any.
im not against the idea of making the skulk require a bit more thought rather than just mashing jump along walls, however the total loss of momentum does feel a bit jarring. I suggest that the friction should come in linearly, or even exponentially - that way the loss of speed is more gradual - meaning that good walljumpers can still maintain momentum whilst not making it so easy as it was before.
another aspect that of this that i quite like - it makes the celerity first upgrade path potentially worthwhile, whereas before it wasnt - walljumping was super effective and more than fast enough - and celerity disables when you get hit aswell. remove the disabling when hit and i think it would be really interesting.
to sum up - the changes are well intentioned, a bit more polish needed, and going for the middle ground might be a satisfactory compromise for everyone.
But if you are spawning as a BASE unit, then you will not be as competitive against advanced units. That's why tactics become that much more important in the later game. That stock marine isn't going to own a fade solo any more than a stock skulk is going to own a JP/shottie marine. The stock player is at a disadvantage. Tactics and skill now play a much bigger role in the outcome.
Yes I see what you mean, but like the people who answered you said: there's a difference between not doing something you shouldn't be doing (aka L2P Marine before 240), and having NO way to do something you eventually have to do.
You can't expect Skulks to only chew on buildings when a) Skulks need longer to get there because of map distances (it's the enemy territory/base after all) b) Marines can just phase in AND even beacon (and phase right back where the came from).. the times aren't even. Some time in the game you HAVE to attack Marines offensively, or at least be able to defend your Harvesters and bases.
I really don't mean to be rude but you're just sort of arguing with yourself. I do not have any clue why you are going on about 'stock' vs advanced. That's not the issue, that is completely and utterly irrelevant. These discussion are (obviously?) centered around the idea that you are on a side when the game starts, therefore you are not fighting a fade as a LMG marine with nothing.
It's the whole getting to fade part that is the issue, you understand? If marines can dominate skulks early game (they already did), it's much more difficult to get to that fade. And when you do get to that fade, they've already got JPs, upgrades, shotguns, or sure as hell are close. But aliens still will be able to win in the same stupid fashion as before, instead of it being bile rushes, it'll be gorge tunnels off infestation behind enemy lines and keeping marines from being able to win in this fashion.
This is stupid gameplay IMO. I'd prefer they balanced the game around combat a little more rather than some bizarre method of winning regardless of the ability to win the combat side of the game.
Skulk is practically useless from an ambushing perspective now. What good is waiting around the corner ready to ambush if it takes you five years to reach the marines? By that time you're already dead. The entire movement just feels sluggish and heavy. And it's not just Skulk, maybe it's a placebo effect, but all of the other aliens, moreso Gorge too, feel more sluggish and heavy to move about.
Camouflage is a useless upgrade now. What's the point of going invisible if you have to stand still? Even an average Marine commander could counter Camouflage by placing observatories in strategic positions; it's not like they cost anything significant. Also, since Camouflage cannot be taken with Silence Marines could always listen for aliens on walls.
Huge nerf for Gorges. -20% Bile damage and considerably reduced range? The argument is, what, exactly? "Bile did too much damage and was OP". Really? By the time you have bile bomb the Marines are likely to have shotguns, mines and possibly jetpacks. If you're going off to bile some buildings then a Gorge has a significant risk of dying. And now, because they have to get pretty much point blank close to them, they're even more likely to die. This isn't a balancing fix, this is just a plain outright nerf for no reason.
Marines can use Gorge tunnels? Really?! I missed the part where aliens could use phase gates to a strategic advantage by teleporting to other marine bases and planning an additional attack. A Gorge tunnel just feels like another doorway that must be defended. Stupid, honestly, IMO.
This isn't making it "more challenging" to play alien. Who comes up with this stuff? What they've done is nerfed the Aliens AND buffed the Marines. What they should have done is buffed the Marines only.
Gorge bile was way too easy. I still have gorges in vent sending bile into a base from too far away and we don't have jet packs. I have gone gorge and I'm still able to bile down a power node... but not alone anymore. Now the reward is commensurate with the risk.
Though I am not for populism the number of disagrees on your comment might have something to it.
Whilst running speed is the same, MOMENTUM is not - and that is the issue.
I'm all for balancing the game out by nerfing the aliens, but the momentum nerf is not the way I'd like it to be. My main problem killing skulks as a marine was the awful hit detection, which UWE seems to have sorted out to some extent.
In rooms like Repair on Mineshaft I am like a brick lol. It's no different if you're in a place like Cafe where you have pillars all over the place, but in more open spaces...good luck
As for team work and ambushing - much tougher to get these to work on pubs.
The problem with ambushes is that you need time for them. What am I to do? Sit outside whilst they take a minute to set up an entire base? What if my fellow skulks don't listen? Tough shizzle for me?
I see arguments on both sides, and quite frankly I don't mind the change THAT much, though...
the OP is a bit provocative, but i believe it was aimed at the handful of people posting that it's 'impossible to kill marines' or 'skulks are rubbish' [since the update].
that's pathetic hyperbole. even including the sharpened skulk hitbox change; i've barely noticed any change in general skulk performance in the ~12 hours i've played of b240.
This lessens the effectiveness of the "single base sniping gorge"
And I think almost everyone can agree a subtle (%16) decrease in range was needed, as there wasn't much risk for gorges, previously.
i don't understand 'less on singular targets' if it's the same total damage.
hitting 1 exosuit versus hitting 2 exosuits, how would the damage vary from b239?
Kinda agree with the OP, people just need to learn the play-style, also it just encourages more teamwork.