The Lerk Change: Smoke Trails on Spikes

NousWandererNousWanderer Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Members
What are your thoughts on this change?

The new spike visual effect significantly limits the lerk's ability to harass from range, which was a viable tool in the lerk's arsenal. Sure, I can still divebomb from behind and follow up with a bite, but it's much harder to force marines to look for me now - a tactic which used to take up their time and provide an adequate distraction for the rest of my team to make a move. There are even reports on these very forums of marines enjoying the "find the lerk" mechanic.

I understand that certain areas of certain maps offered a great number of relatively secluded perch points for lerks (example: central drilling on mineshaft), but these were easily dealt with via scans or observatory placement in what is essentially the most important room of the map (in other words 'a sensible pub decision'). Lerking this way is also something that effectively gets nullified once marines have jetpacks, and in any event is far less damaging than a skulk going gorge on the railing. Lerk harassment wasn't what was winning games for aliens.

More importantly, spikes really don't do that much damage. In every area where hidden spiking is potentially a problem to marines, competent players should be able to respond accordingly by retreating to cover, hitting up the armory and communicating/coordinating to drive the lerk out. Also, it takes ages to bring down structures with spikes, so that can hardly be the issue here (there's one air tunnel covered with a fan in central drilling that should have its entrance moved, since it's too easy to spike the power node annoyingly from inside...although it's virtually impossible to be anything more than annoying while doing this).

Lerks are by no means OP. I rarely see competent lerks in pub games. While I and a handful of other pub players are pretty adept with them, I think it's clear that the skill floor is also quite high and is usually a prohibitive barrier to entry for the average player (especially for an investment of 30 personal resources). The majority of players who try to get their lerk game to a competent level give up before they get there, for whatever reasons, and the recent change definitely works against the hide-portion of 'hide and harass'. Arguably the developers have a different and perhaps narrower idea of how lerks should operate, and that's fine. I'll just miss those moments of distraction.
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Comments

  • NousWandererNousWanderer Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Members
    edited March 2013
    moultano wrote: »
    Being spiked from a distance with no effective way to find the lerk was one of the most annoying things in the game. It could occupy the entire marine team for quite a while. This change makes the game more fun.
    While I understand your position, there are other players who have expressed appreciation for the former mechanic. I'd also reply by saying that there are multiple effective ways to find the lerk, each of which is much cheaper than the cost of the lerk (whether we're talking about player resources or team resources).

    As far as the most common issue is concerned - central drilling on mineshaft - the biggest issue is the poor placement of the vent/air tunnel. A lerk can hang out in there and attempt to snipe the power node (rarely succeeding, but also being persistently annoying in the process - marines tend to locate the lerk quickly, but have little they can do in response until jetpacks and/or grenade launchers are researched). I see this as more of a map issue than a lerk issue, so to speak.
  • thefonzthefonz Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105847Members
    moultano wrote: »
    Being spiked from a distance with no effective way to find the lerk was one of the most annoying things in the game. It could occupy the entire marine team for quite a while. This change makes the game more fun.

    One scan?

    The trails have made lerk sniping, even with silence, absolutely useless. Never roost and shoot. You will be dead in seconds.

    I get why it was done, I just think it is overkill. Finding theerk was never too hard. Taking damage front the left? The lerk is on your left.
  • SchupacSchupac Join Date: 2013-02-18 Member: 183159Members
    My survivability as a lerk has been mostly the same; my effectiveness has dropped since I can't pause to shoot. You have to get really good at aiming while flying. I think the fixed hitboxes are really hurting me more as a lerk, and when I get a chance to play as a marine it'll probably make me extremely happy.

    Pre-patch, it was probably too easy for a lerk to tie up the marine team by spiking and flying around. This patch has made it wayyyy harder to do that which is a rough adjustment, but I think it makes sense.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    like most good changes: it both looks great and removes a cheap strategy.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    thefonz wrote: »
    moultano wrote: »
    Being spiked from a distance with no effective way to find the lerk was one of the most annoying things in the game. It could occupy the entire marine team for quite a while. This change makes the game more fun.

    One scan?

    The trails have made lerk sniping, even with silence, absolutely useless. Never roost and shoot. You will be dead in seconds.

    I get why it was done, I just think it is overkill. Finding theerk was never too hard. Taking damage front the left? The lerk is on your left.

    on the left, sometimes in 100% darkness so he was impossible to see.

    seriously there was NO spike effect before - it was clearly a placeholder for a tracer of some sort. it looked cheap and it played cheap.
  • Snypr18Snypr18 Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168566Members
    I do not like it. Long range harassment was a big factor for the Lerk, now it is effectively removed.
  • ultranewbultranewb Pro Bug Hunter Join Date: 2004-07-21 Member: 30026Members
    I usually play lerk and I still like the change, but the length of the cinematic is way too long. It adds a ton of visual clutter.
  • RainyCaturdayRainyCaturday Join Date: 2013-02-19 Member: 183202Members
    I don't really like it either but I think it is a step in the right direction.

    My suggestion is to only show the trail from the Lerk to 1/4 out instead of the entire path of the spike.

    This would still make it easier for marines to find Llerks but if you had a good spot and it was dark enough, they wouldn't be able to see the "dust" trail without their flashlight on.

    I love the way it looks and hope it gets tweaked a little but stays in.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited March 2013
    1) it could be more subtle/less opaque and less screen cluttering / less of a laser beam that exposes the source
    2) they need to be instant.. it drives me mad when tracers in games are slower than the projectile, it gives poor visual feedback, and worse gets in the way of your next shot frequently.

    (my tracer mod i have not published. [watch in 1080 for those who have trouble noticing])
  • TimariusTimarius Join Date: 2012-11-15 Member: 171220Members
    I veritably loathe the trail. I've loathed it in every game (except Quake 3, but that's because we're talking about a railgun).

    What fun is sniping/harassing when you're constantly giving yourself away? What sniper would EVER use tracer rounds?

    Moreover, why is this dust coming out and following the spike? Is the projectile so fast that the bones actually chips off during flight?

    "Find the Lerk" was as hard as, "Commander, I need a scan here".
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    edited March 2013
    moultano wrote: »
    Being spiked from a distance with no effective way to find the lerk was one of the most annoying things in the game. It could occupy the entire marine team for quite a while. This change makes the game more fun.

    And then Lord God spake from the heavens;

    "And I shall grant the commander of the marine team the ability to scan and locate the enemy anywhere on the map!"

    Also the red thingie on your UI will point you in the direction of the lerk, even if they wont spot him. The game isnt supposed to be frikking easy mode against a 30pres life form that is already pretty frail in close combat.

  • chibimikechibimike Join Date: 2007-09-09 Member: 62232Members
    Spike is still good, it's a machine gun parasite tool very effective to get the upper hand before an engagement even begins.
  • ritualsacrificeritualsacrifice Join Date: 2012-11-14 Member: 171148Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Meh. I don't like the idea behind the change, and don't think it was necessary... but if you were hiding while lerk spiking chances are you were being a fairly useless lerk anyways so I guess I don't mind if they kill you a little bit faster :p
  • RabidWeaselRabidWeasel Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5337Members
    I think the effect is a bit large but I don't mind how it looks really. I'm happy for the lerk to have a less stealthy role and I think it's better for gameplay overall that you don't have silent almost invisible ninja spikes, even if they were fun to abuse in a few cases.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    i hardly call scan a solution to 'lork on the clorf'...

    it costs 20 res (?) and 99% of the time the lerk can just fly away after forcing a scan.
  • deathshrouddeathshroud Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71291Members
    i dont mind it and i play lerk usually,
  • mechanicalDRmechanicalDR Join Date: 2012-03-20 Member: 149019Members
    I like it. Yes, it was no problem for me to ask for a scan, but what about marines without a mic? It just feels like a terrible game play mechanic, especially in rooms like Lava Falls. Lerks should learn they are not snipers. You have wings, use them. It drives me insane as a lerk to see another lerks being extremely ineffectual instead of flanking, biting, and harassing with spikes. Your best trait as a Lerk IS your insane maneuverability. A single Lerk is so insanely good at shutting down ninja marines, it's actually nice to see this sit back and snipe behavior actively punished.

    Not saying there isn't a time to just shoot spikes, like in groups scenarios when you can dps down marines pretty quickly in obscurity, but that won't be hindered by the trails too much.
  • NarfwakNarfwak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
    I almost always lerk in alien games (man I love how every lifeform name is a verb) and I can't say I have a problem with it. If you're fighting decent marines they're going to figure out where it's coming from and you shouldn't be relying on being able to sit still in a roost and rain down hell from a concealed position to be a viable damage dealer. There's positions in several maps that, when unpowered, are so dark and so far from the origin of a marine's flashlight that finding or tracking a lerk there is extremely difficult. To that end be glad that gravity control has a damage field now. It didn't always have one. I wanted to kill every lerk in the universe after that game.

    I've suggested a few times that perhaps silence and/or camouflage could lessen the opacity of the lerk's tracers or eliminate them outright. Meta-mechanics like that seem like an interesting way to boost shade tech traits without buffing the main aspect of the trait too much. Either way I don't really mind the tracer and I won't be bothered if they stay how they are. They're kind of nice just to watch how good a teammate or enemy lerk is with landing their spikes as you can see the shot distribution very clearly and get a pretty good idea of how skilled the player is at almost a glance.
  • randomroperandomrope Join Date: 2013-01-16 Member: 180026Members
    Silenced Lerk

    I think they added it after watching countless marines wander around a room having no idea where damage was coming from. Power nodes, RT's, PG's, etc would just be taking damage while green sprays of mystery goo would just silently shoot up from the structure. Only way to find a the lerk would be to run through the LOS and take damage.

    Scan isnt even a valid option just to find a lerk. Unless you have a lot of RT's no one is going to waste a scan on a lerk when you are saving to make sure you don't screw your team.
  • NousWandererNousWanderer Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Members
    Narfwak wrote: »
    I almost always lerk in alien games (man I love how every lifeform name is a verb) and I can't say I have a problem with it. If you're fighting decent marines they're going to figure out where it's coming from and you shouldn't be relying on being able to sit still in a roost and rain down hell from a concealed position to be a viable damage dealer. There's positions in several maps that, when unpowered, are so dark and so far from the origin of a marine's flashlight that finding or tracking a lerk there is extremely difficult. To that end be glad that gravity control has a damage field now. It didn't always have one. I wanted to kill every lerk in the universe after that game.

    I've suggested a few times that perhaps silence and/or camouflage could lessen the opacity of the lerk's tracers or eliminate them outright. Meta-mechanics like that seem like an interesting way to boost shade tech traits without buffing the main aspect of the trait too much. Either way I don't really mind the tracer and I won't be bothered if they stay how they are. They're kind of nice just to watch how good a teammate or enemy lerk is with landing their spikes as you can see the shot distribution very clearly and get a pretty good idea of how skilled the player is at almost a glance.
    I'm not even so concerned about the perch dynamic; I think that the tracers are a bit excessive even (or especially) when on the fly, strafe shooting and the like. I'd be more than happy if there was a way to lessen the frequency and/or visibility of the tracers, since they basically act like guidelines for marines to shoot down even while you're moving (just lead a bit).

  • NousWandererNousWanderer Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Members
    IronHorse wrote: »
    1) it could be more subtle/less opaque and less screen cluttering / less of a laser beam that exposes the source
    2) they need to be instant.. it drives me mad when tracers in games are slower than the projectile, it gives poor visual feedback, and worse gets in the way of your next shot frequently.
    I agree with both of these points.

  • pendelum5pendelum5 Join Date: 2012-10-29 Member: 164317Members
    I agree that lerk needed to be more detectable when using spikes. It was too easy to sit in a dark corner and take free shots at clueless marines, or force a 3 tres scan and fly away to cover. The effect should be modified to reduce clutter, though.
  • joederpjoederp Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165992Members
    IMO they fixed the Lerk spikes, they were broken before. I think the Hydras need to have the same trails as well - and I love playing lerk. But I have to admit the lerk being so completely invisible while spiking from any range was too overpowered before. You could hold back an entire team of marines in the right position. You got used to it and it sucks its gone but you cannot deny that for 30 res, it was too powerful.. the Lerk was not meant to be a long range sniper dealing tons of damage to marines from 200 yards away completely unseen. And don't give me the 'scan' crap .. if you are a decent lerk you know that is pointless for a comm to scan for you while you harass.
  • NousWandererNousWanderer Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Members
    joederp wrote: »
    IMO they fixed the Lerk spikes, they were broken before. I think the Hydras need to have the same trails as well - and I love playing lerk. But I have to admit the lerk being so completely invisible while spiking from any range was too overpowered before. You could hold back an entire team of marines in the right position. You got used to it and it sucks its gone but you cannot deny that for 30 res, it was too powerful.. the Lerk was not meant to be a long range sniper dealing tons of damage to marines from 200 yards away completely unseen. And don't give me the 'scan' crap .. if you are a decent lerk you know that is pointless for a comm to scan for you while you harass.
    Even if we accept that the change was made to correct for the issue you describe, it doesn't change the fact that the smoke trails 1) aren't instant, 2) are too long/obtrusive/visually cluttered, and 3) aren't needed on every single spike if the purpose is to signal the lerk's location. As it stands, they get in the way of combat and generally work against the lerk even when fighting in plain sight (unless you're using alien vision).

  • coldsmokecoldsmoke Join Date: 2004-07-28 Member: 30202Members
    edited March 2013
    moultano wrote: »
    Being spiked from a distance with no effective way to find the lerk was one of the most annoying things in the game. It could occupy the entire marine team for quite a while. This change makes the game more fun.


    I have to disagree with this sentiment that several people seem to have.

    Sure it was annoying but not the most annoying since you can use something called logical reasoning and pinpoint the lerks possible positions based on what direction the damage is coming from. You had to actually use your eyes and look at every little thing (there's only so many places they could be hiding) but now without that advantage the lerk loses a lot of offensive capabilities.
  • SeahuntsSeahunts Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151973Members
    I don't like the change at all. The lerk did not need to be hit with the nerf bat.
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    What are your thoughts on this change?
    I like the change in principle, since marine flashlight can't reach far enough in areas to illuminate dark areas. If it did, then this might not be necessary. Also let's not forget that spikes are almost silent. If a jetpacker tried to do the same you'd hear him a mile away.

    So I like the tracers. What they could possibly do is only send out a tracer once every X spikes instead of with each one. That way they are still leaving a trail, but it's not as obvious.

    This is yet another area where the game will reward skill. It may be harder to camp, but that means people who can master flying and shooting will still come out on top. Spikes are still just as deadly.
  • MorshuMorshu Join Date: 2012-08-13 Member: 155539Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I think it's alright they've added the smoke trail effect sure this means that you won't be able to sit in some vent breathing heavily without anybody noticing you as you spam spikes at some phase gate/etc. but prior to this update the spike projectiles were invisible except on impact which in my opinion didn't make much sense.

    Hopefully this will encourage lerks to swoop into combat along with whatever aliens jumping into the thick of it rather just sit behind shooting 'silly' spikes when they could do more havoc with their poison bite/spores.

    Overall I feel it adds to the 'completion' of the lerk when it comes to polishing it's visual effects. (in this case the use of spikes)
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