IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Win 8 has had weird reports with ns2
It's an effort.. but worth trying imo and you seem capable :
Install the free 90 day evaluation enterprise version of Windows 7 as a dual boot. Then see if you have similar results. Then at least we can isolate it further.
It's an effort.. but worth trying imo and you seem capable :
Install the free 90 day evaluation enterprise version of Windows 7 as a dual boot. Then see if you have similar results. Then at least we can isolate it further.
I'd be happy to try it out but I dont know where to download it, on MSDN technet I only found win8 editions.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
yeh, they dont hand out evaluation copies for free.
I always play in full screen windowed mode, as it is much friendlier on alt+tab while losing almost no performance.
Also when you run in true fullscreen, it does seem to handle some things different. I mean, the lagswitching on alttab is a indication of that right?
So yeh, windowed mode.
Windows 8 has a new file system, ReFS. Are you using that? It is a extension/new version to ntfs, so it may be you are and never noticed.
Hard to find a concrete list of other tech changes though.
yeh, they dont hand out evaluation copies for free.
I always play in full screen windowed mode, as it is much friendlier on alt+tab while losing almost no performance.
Also when you run in true fullscreen, it does seem to handle some things different. I mean, the lagswitching on alttab is a indication of that right?
So yeh, windowed mode.
Windows 8 has a new file system, ReFS. Are you using that? It is a extension/new version to ntfs, so it may be you are and never noticed.
Hard to find a concrete list of other tech changes though.
I tried fullscreen windowed but my fps dropped ~50% and I got even worse input lag.
And for the filesystem, my computer says my drives are NTFS and this is what I found on MSDN about ReFS:
"In Windows 8, ReFS will be introduced only as part of Windows Server 8"
theres anything wrong with you - actually i know people running 16 slot servers while they are playing without any OC and they are still fine (3570K too).
And inputdeelay starts if you get below 80 FPS no matter what - other games does not start to become worse mousemovement that way early like NS2 does.
For sure shity Jetpack Smoke n stuff does really hurt the FPS for no reason and im waiting for the day- that there will be an option to disable that no need.
but theres almost nothing worse about ur performance if you take (F)Craps to record ur problems. anyways youve managed a 115 fps screenshots on veil - so whats ur problem? its even better than my ~95 fps
IronHorse, can you please give some examples of weird reports? I am running Windows 8 since 236/237, and I am wondering if the poorer frame rates (as compared with prior builds) I am experiencing are related to the NS2 build or Windows 8 OS. Thanks!
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2013
Compatibility issues mostly.. from not running at all to odd directx issues
You can always do a dual boot to compare the performance
Technically theres no official support or mention of it anywhere.. i recall Max saying something like "it should run" lol.. so yea i would definitely love to see comparisons to windows 7.
GG tonight btw
And also how much does it chance when you set all the settings in the ati control pannel to "Performance". That should also give you more FPS.
I have already tried that dll swap thingy and it didnt work, and if it did something it was just even worse performance.
I dont really see the point of making mipmap quality the worst possible if I want to run the game with anisotropic filtering, it kinda invalidates the original purpose.
Compatibility issues mostly.. from not running at all to odd directx issues
You can always do a dual boot to compare the performance
Technically theres no official support or mention of it anywhere.. i recall Max saying something like "it should run" lol.. so yea i would definitely love to see comparisons to windows 7.
GG tonight btw
I dont really see the point of making mipmap quality the worst possible if I want to run the game with anisotropic filtering, it kinda invalidates the original purpose.
Well it is a test. Maybe the driver you are using has some bug with it... You never know.
Also have you tried running the game with texture steaming disabled, like I said in my previous post? If you have that set to enabled and the harddrive from whom you are loading the game is like 5400 rpm you will experience nasty lag.
I dont really see the point of making mipmap quality the worst possible if I want to run the game with anisotropic filtering, it kinda invalidates the original purpose.
Well it is a test. Maybe the driver you are using has some bug with it... You never know.
Also have you tried running the game with texture steaming disabled, like I said in my previous post? If you have that set to enabled and the harddrive from whom you are loading the game is like 5400 rpm you will experience nasty lag.
Maybe I'll test that later. And we already went through the texture streaming before in this thread.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Hmm. I didnt know that about only being on windows server.
Odd that you experience such a huge fps drop inbetween fullscreen and fullscreen windowed. I havent seen games drop fps that bad between the 2 modes for a long time.
I would suggest to go on a driver hunt. Windows8 is fairly new, and I feel some drivers may be not optimized yet and need a update.
I would check sounds, network, chipset, videocard and harddisk chipset drivers for ahci/raid.
Also interesting to know that there are evaluation copies out there.
Still not gona use it though.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Yea shonan.. if you have any discs of windows 7 laying around, I really advise you to take the time and install a dual boot to test for any differences.
When you do this, be sure to install only the bare essentials, no beta drivers, no OCing etc..
Really curious for the results, as this is the only thing i can assume would be the culprit here, besides some wonky chipset or display driver?
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
do not underestimate how much lag related issues faulty audio or ahci drivers can cause. Especially the latter is a good way to even hang your whole system.
If this doesn't work you can try to "completely" remove all traces of your ati with the following steps (inside quote).
Follow these stops.
(Remember, if you look in some of the folders mentioned in this guide but don’t have any AMD/ATi folders, just move to the next appropriate step. This means the uninstall option has removed such files for you. But as we know, the uninstaller still leaves a lot of things behind) Do at your own risk.
1. Go to Add/Remove Programs
2. Uninstall the Catalyst Install manager (Express Uninstall)
3. Reboot the computer and log back into windows as normal
4. Go to folder options and select “show hidden files and folders”
The next part of the guide will remove all ATi/AMD files and folders from the computer.
5. Go to your C drive and remove the “AMD” folder
6. Double click the “Program Data” folder (Normally hidden) and remove all ATi/AMD folders
7. Go back to C and double click “Program Files” and remove all ATi/AMD folders
8. Go back to C and double click “Program Files (x86)” and remove all ATi/AMD folders
9. Go back to C and double click “Users”
10. Access the name of your windows profile and double click “AppData” (Normally hidden)
11. Check the “Local”, “LocalLow” and “Roaming” folders for any ATi/AMD folders and remove them.
12. Go back to “Users” and check the “Default” folder (Normally hidden)
13. Double click “AppData” (Normally hidden)
14. Check the “Local” and “Roaming” folders for any ATi/AMD folders and remove them.
The next part of the guide will remove registry entries left by the AMD drivers.
15. Close everything down and go back to your desktop
16. Click start, then type “regedit”.
17. Click “HKEY_CURRENT_USER” and extend the folder
18. Click “Software” and extend the folder
19. Remove all AMD and ATi Folders
20. Click “Wow6432Node” and extend the folder (Within the software folder)
21. Remove the “AMD” folder
22. Click “HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE” and extend the folder
23. Click “SOFTWARE” and extend the folder
24. Remove all AMD and ATi Folders
25. Click “Wow6432Node” and extend the folder
26. Remove all AMD and ATi Folders
27. Click “HKEY_USERS” and extend the folder
28. Click “.DEFAULT” and extend the folder
29. Click “Software” and extend the folder
30. Remove all AMD and ATi folders
31. Click “S-1-5-18” and extend the folder
32. Click “Software” and extend the folder
33. Remove all AMD and ATi folders
34. Click “S-1-5-21-1632250243-966907716-928185508-1000” and extend the folder
35. Click “Software” and extend the folder
36. Remove all AMD and ATi Folders
37. Close down regedit and empty your recycle bin
38. Undo the folder options change to hide the hidden folders
Hmm. I didnt know that about only being on windows server.
Odd that you experience such a huge fps drop inbetween fullscreen and fullscreen windowed. I havent seen games drop fps that bad between the 2 modes for a long time.
I would suggest to go on a driver hunt. Windows8 is fairly new, and I feel some drivers may be not optimized yet and need a update.
I would check sounds, network, chipset, videocard and harddisk chipset drivers for ahci/raid.
Also interesting to know that there are evaluation copies out there.
Still not gona use it though.
I have all latest drivers and everything is totally fine on my system.
Yea shonan.. if you have any discs of windows 7 laying around, I really advise you to take the time and install a dual boot to test for any differences.
When you do this, be sure to install only the bare essentials, no beta drivers, no OCing etc..
Really curious for the results, as this is the only thing i can assume would be the culprit here, besides some wonky chipset or display driver?
If this doesn't work you can try to "completely" remove all traces of your ati with the following steps (inside quote).
Follow these stops.
(Remember, if you look in some of the folders mentioned in this guide but don’t have any AMD/ATi folders, just move to the next appropriate step. This means the uninstall option has removed such files for you. But as we know, the uninstaller still leaves a lot of things behind) Do at your own risk.
1. Go to Add/Remove Programs
2. Uninstall the Catalyst Install manager (Express Uninstall)
3. Reboot the computer and log back into windows as normal
4. Go to folder options and select “show hidden files and folders”
The next part of the guide will remove all ATi/AMD files and folders from the computer.
5. Go to your C drive and remove the “AMD” folder
6. Double click the “Program Data” folder (Normally hidden) and remove all ATi/AMD folders
7. Go back to C and double click “Program Files” and remove all ATi/AMD folders
8. Go back to C and double click “Program Files (x86)” and remove all ATi/AMD folders
9. Go back to C and double click “Users”
10. Access the name of your windows profile and double click “AppData” (Normally hidden)
11. Check the “Local”, “LocalLow” and “Roaming” folders for any ATi/AMD folders and remove them.
12. Go back to “Users” and check the “Default” folder (Normally hidden)
13. Double click “AppData” (Normally hidden)
14. Check the “Local” and “Roaming” folders for any ATi/AMD folders and remove them.
The next part of the guide will remove registry entries left by the AMD drivers.
15. Close everything down and go back to your desktop
16. Click start, then type “regedit”.
17. Click “HKEY_CURRENT_USER” and extend the folder
18. Click “Software” and extend the folder
19. Remove all AMD and ATi Folders
20. Click “Wow6432Node” and extend the folder (Within the software folder)
21. Remove the “AMD” folder
22. Click “HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE” and extend the folder
23. Click “SOFTWARE” and extend the folder
24. Remove all AMD and ATi Folders
25. Click “Wow6432Node” and extend the folder
26. Remove all AMD and ATi Folders
27. Click “HKEY_USERS” and extend the folder
28. Click “.DEFAULT” and extend the folder
29. Click “Software” and extend the folder
30. Remove all AMD and ATi folders
31. Click “S-1-5-18” and extend the folder
32. Click “Software” and extend the folder
33. Remove all AMD and ATi folders
34. Click “S-1-5-21-1632250243-966907716-928185508-1000” and extend the folder
35. Click “Software” and extend the folder
36. Remove all AMD and ATi Folders
37. Close down regedit and empty your recycle bin
38. Undo the folder options change to hide the hidden folders
Ah sorry my bad. You could also apply this with your own driver and use the latest version of that one. I would also suggest trying an older version, I've had better results with the 12.x versions that with the 13.1 version.
Ah sorry my bad. You could also apply this with your own driver and use the latest version of that one. I would also suggest trying an older version, I've had better results with the 12.x versions that with the 13.1 version.
Unfortunately there are no beta drivers fr my card out there right now, and I need to use the latest for other compatibility reasons.
Something interesting I noticed, the game seems to perform better around infestation with rich infestation enabled.
Two more plogs if it would be of any use. With the following settings, this time with rich infestation:
EDIT: Had a better look at this, with rich infestation the general lag is worse, but loading the infestation doesnt cause the kind of hitch I get with low quality infestation.
EDIT 2: Now I'm not so sure, performance seems to be pretty erratic, strange...
Btw is there any post-processing in the game? Cause if there is that is probably a big fps killer and would be nice to be able to turn it off, if there is any.
Compatibility issues mostly.. from not running at all to odd directx issues
You can always do a dual boot to compare the performance
Technically theres no official support or mention of it anywhere.. i recall Max saying something like "it should run" lol.. so yea i would definitely love to see comparisons to windows 7.
GG tonight btw
Ah, I see. I would dual boot if I could, but I don't own a copy of Windows 7. I had a choice back in January between Windows 7 at around $140 vs Windows 8 at $40 (legitimate)... and I decided the $100 was better spent on computer parts upgrades.
Hopefully the new Gorgeous patch will help things. But if not, I am definitely starting to think it might be Win 8 related, which is why I'm so curious. I'll keep you posted.
Windows 8 does have slightly less performance for games at least on my comp. Not only in NS2 but a lot others. Though the difference is small. Like 1 fps less on average. I could tell easily when I was playing borderlands 2 so I reinstalled Windows 7.
Same NS2 demo from that thread on both versions of windows:
Oh, and I should specify also that not only has my FPS decreased, but that the apparent smoothness/frame latencies (discussed here and within the links of the post: http://techreport.com/blog/24247/as-the-second-turns-further-developments) have also suffered. I am experiencing more frame fluctuation/lack of smoothness, which in turn affects my mouse via input lag... in essence, constant mouse acceleration and deceleration.. creating inconsistent/non-linear mouse aim.
1fps is hardly noticeable, IMHO, but I guess you noticed the lack of "smoothness" with Borderlands, causing you to reinstall Windows 7.
^Yup you got me. In borderlands 2 there was an area that felt choppy. Not the usual frame dip choppy because it was almost the same but hitchy. Like bad stuttering. Went back to windows 7 and it was so smooth. I run an i7 920 @ 4.4 Ghz no HT and GTX 480 900/2200. So yea I guess you can say windows 8 is not for me sadly I tried to like it man.
with a i5 4.5ghz quad core, 560 ti sli and 8 gigs of ram i used to get horrible lag around 15 to 30fps back in beta but i eventually found the problem was my settings in the Ai Suite with regards to my EPU settings set to max power saving.
this is with a p8p67 motherboard, after setting the EPU to performance i gained about 30 to 40fps even now today with all the fix's to the performance im hitting stable 80's with fps.
Windows 8 does have slightly less performance for games at least on my comp. Not only in NS2 but a lot others. Though the difference is small. Like 1 fps less on average. I could tell easily when I was playing borderlands 2 so I reinstalled Windows 7.
Same NS2 demo from that thread on both versions of windows:
Comments
It's an effort.. but worth trying imo and you seem capable :
Install the free 90 day evaluation enterprise version of Windows 7 as a dual boot. Then see if you have similar results. Then at least we can isolate it further.
I always play in full screen windowed mode, as it is much friendlier on alt+tab while losing almost no performance.
Also when you run in true fullscreen, it does seem to handle some things different. I mean, the lagswitching on alttab is a indication of that right?
So yeh, windowed mode.
Windows 8 has a new file system, ReFS. Are you using that? It is a extension/new version to ntfs, so it may be you are and never noticed.
Hard to find a concrete list of other tech changes though.
I tried fullscreen windowed but my fps dropped ~50% and I got even worse input lag.
And for the filesystem, my computer says my drives are NTFS and this is what I found on MSDN about ReFS:
"In Windows 8, ReFS will be introduced only as part of Windows Server 8"
And inputdeelay starts if you get below 80 FPS no matter what - other games does not start to become worse mousemovement that way early like NS2 does.
For sure shity Jetpack Smoke n stuff does really hurt the FPS for no reason and im waiting for the day- that there will be an option to disable that no need.
but theres almost nothing worse about ur performance if you take (F)Craps to record ur problems. anyways youve managed a 115 fps screenshots on veil - so whats ur problem? its even better than my ~95 fps
IronHorse, can you please give some examples of weird reports? I am running Windows 8 since 236/237, and I am wondering if the poorer frame rates (as compared with prior builds) I am experiencing are related to the NS2 build or Windows 8 OS. Thanks!
You can always do a dual boot to compare the performance
Technically theres no official support or mention of it anywhere.. i recall Max saying something like "it should run" lol.. so yea i would definitely love to see comparisons to windows 7.
GG tonight btw
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/evalcenter/jj554510.aspx
Backup the file d3dx9_42.dll in your NS2 steam folder and replace it with this one:
http://tawot.com/d3dx9_42.dll
Check if it does anything for you.
And also how much does it chance when you set all the settings in the ati control pannel to "Performance". That should also give you more FPS.
I dont really see the point of making mipmap quality the worst possible if I want to run the game with anisotropic filtering, it kinda invalidates the original purpose.
Thats a shame, hope you can arrange for some more thorough testing on windows 8.
Also have you tried running the game with texture steaming disabled, like I said in my previous post? If you have that set to enabled and the harddrive from whom you are loading the game is like 5400 rpm you will experience nasty lag.
Odd that you experience such a huge fps drop inbetween fullscreen and fullscreen windowed. I havent seen games drop fps that bad between the 2 modes for a long time.
I would suggest to go on a driver hunt. Windows8 is fairly new, and I feel some drivers may be not optimized yet and need a update.
I would check sounds, network, chipset, videocard and harddisk chipset drivers for ahci/raid.
Also interesting to know that there are evaluation copies out there.
Still not gona use it though.
When you do this, be sure to install only the bare essentials, no beta drivers, no OCing etc..
Really curious for the results, as this is the only thing i can assume would be the culprit here, besides some wonky chipset or display driver?
Try this:
Remove your driver with the Uninstaller.
Then install the new beta driver from here:
http://www2.ati.com/drivers/beta/AMD_Catalyst_13.2_Beta6.exe
If this doesn't work you can try to "completely" remove all traces of your ati with the following steps (inside quote).
(Remember, if you look in some of the folders mentioned in this guide but don’t have any AMD/ATi folders, just move to the next appropriate step. This means the uninstall option has removed such files for you. But as we know, the uninstaller still leaves a lot of things behind) Do at your own risk.
1. Go to Add/Remove Programs
2. Uninstall the Catalyst Install manager (Express Uninstall)
3. Reboot the computer and log back into windows as normal
4. Go to folder options and select “show hidden files and folders”
The next part of the guide will remove all ATi/AMD files and folders from the computer.
5. Go to your C drive and remove the “AMD” folder
6. Double click the “Program Data” folder (Normally hidden) and remove all ATi/AMD folders
7. Go back to C and double click “Program Files” and remove all ATi/AMD folders
8. Go back to C and double click “Program Files (x86)” and remove all ATi/AMD folders
9. Go back to C and double click “Users”
10. Access the name of your windows profile and double click “AppData” (Normally hidden)
11. Check the “Local”, “LocalLow” and “Roaming” folders for any ATi/AMD folders and remove them.
12. Go back to “Users” and check the “Default” folder (Normally hidden)
13. Double click “AppData” (Normally hidden)
14. Check the “Local” and “Roaming” folders for any ATi/AMD folders and remove them.
The next part of the guide will remove registry entries left by the AMD drivers.
15. Close everything down and go back to your desktop
16. Click start, then type “regedit”.
17. Click “HKEY_CURRENT_USER” and extend the folder
18. Click “Software” and extend the folder
19. Remove all AMD and ATi Folders
20. Click “Wow6432Node” and extend the folder (Within the software folder)
21. Remove the “AMD” folder
22. Click “HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE” and extend the folder
23. Click “SOFTWARE” and extend the folder
24. Remove all AMD and ATi Folders
25. Click “Wow6432Node” and extend the folder
26. Remove all AMD and ATi Folders
27. Click “HKEY_USERS” and extend the folder
28. Click “.DEFAULT” and extend the folder
29. Click “Software” and extend the folder
30. Remove all AMD and ATi folders
31. Click “S-1-5-18” and extend the folder
32. Click “Software” and extend the folder
33. Remove all AMD and ATi folders
34. Click “S-1-5-21-1632250243-966907716-928185508-1000” and extend the folder
35. Click “Software” and extend the folder
36. Remove all AMD and ATi Folders
37. Close down regedit and empty your recycle bin
38. Undo the folder options change to hide the hidden folders
39. Reboot
40. Install your AMD/Nvidia drivers and reboot
I have all latest drivers and everything is totally fine on my system.
I dont have Windows 7 so cannot do that.
Those drivers arent for my graphics card.
Two more plogs if it would be of any use. With the following settings, this time with rich infestation:
EDIT: Had a better look at this, with rich infestation the general lag is worse, but loading the infestation doesnt cause the kind of hitch I get with low quality infestation.
EDIT 2: Now I'm not so sure, performance seems to be pretty erratic, strange...
Btw is there any post-processing in the game? Cause if there is that is probably a big fps killer and would be nice to be able to turn it off, if there is any.
Ah, I see. I would dual boot if I could, but I don't own a copy of Windows 7. I had a choice back in January between Windows 7 at around $140 vs Windows 8 at $40 (legitimate)... and I decided the $100 was better spent on computer parts upgrades.
Hopefully the new Gorgeous patch will help things. But if not, I am definitely starting to think it might be Win 8 related, which is why I'm so curious. I'll keep you posted.
And yes, definitely GGs!!
Same NS2 demo from that thread on both versions of windows:
Win 7:
Frames: 82537 - Time: 1372730ms - Avg: 60.126 - Min: 34 - Max: 109
Win 8:
Frames: 82918 - Time: 1396958ms - Avg: 59.356 - Min: 33 - Max: 106
In any case Shonan I would like to see your performance graph from this demo thread:
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/127867/benchmark-demo-thread/p1
Just to get a look at how bad it gets for you. It won't work when 240 is out though.
1fps is hardly noticeable, IMHO, but I guess you noticed the lack of "smoothness" with Borderlands, causing you to reinstall Windows 7.
this is with a p8p67 motherboard, after setting the EPU to performance i gained about 30 to 40fps even now today with all the fix's to the performance im hitting stable 80's with fps.
Posted results in that thread, for easier viewing pleasure: