moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
My suggestion: increase the cool down time to slow the rate of fire.
This makes it just as effective if a skilled gorge is doing it within combat, but kills the effectiveness of suicide rushes, and gives the marines more time to respond.
The problem is simply that player vs player is totally unimportant for winning games. You win by doing economic damage and the best way to do that is kill structures.
I gotta quote this since it is right on the money. This is what really dampens the fun factor in NS2 since the exciting PvP battles usually only happen when the game has already been decided. The bulk of the time it's "res node warz" where one team builds extractors/harvesters and the other team attacks them. (since we all know that attacking a static structure that can't fight back it the epitome of excitement, amitite?!?) Add in the inane power node mechanic and you have a game that revolves more about teams attacking the other team's static structures than the other team's players.
It's no wonder people say bile bomb is overpowered. It's because attacking players is meaningless in the big scheme of things. If PvP was more important in NS2 then bile bomb wouldn't be a very good weapon to use. (excluding using it against the craptastic EXO who is the only unit/structure in the entire game that is armor only.)
So yeah, in a game where it's all about player versus environment, it's no surprise that bile bomb would be seen as overpowered.
That's the nature of RTS games... You go for the workers/economy and the important structures. If you can avoid the other players army but still win - woopiedoo!
The problem with Gorges ending games out of the blue is the randomness of it and how easy it can be done. That needs to be fixed I think, not toning down the RTS part of NS2 (the importance of disrupting economy and tech, not somehow emphasize more on frags).
I think Bile is fine, and necessary, at current power vs. Exos. It's fine vs. buildings really. It's just unfair vs. power nodes. If they kept bile exactly as it is, but reduced strength by 33% vs. power nodes, I think it would solve a lot of these balance issues.
The problem is, 4 aliens can split off into two teams of 2 gorges and bile bomb two separate, important base power nodes. And the marines must be in a position to get back to cover both bases within 15-20 seconds. That means marines have to keep a rearguard at all times just in case the aliens decide to use an extremely easy and cheap tactic. And if the marines kill the gorges? NP, it's just 10 resources.
A dual exo (75 res) is less effective at base killing than a gorge (10 res). That's a problem.
anyone that thinks the current bile is fine is naive or only plays with every competent comms and marines.
Two assumptions. Both wrong.
I disagree, and I'm not the only one. What's insulting is that you would suggest someone else is "wrong". Are you a developer? No? Then don't act like one.
The warning system is the clear issue. With a better warning system, Commanders will be notified of an attack and be able to respond faster.
The warning system is a completely different issue, and while the current warning system is horrid, the warning system is NOT the "clear issue". Why? Because bile is a DOT, and once the DOT lands the damage is done. You can kill the gorge five times over but if the damage is done (and still ticking) all the warnings in the world won't fix the imbalance.
I think it would probably be a good idea to remove the damage stacking from multiple Gorges biling(or implement a maximum DoT stack from bile that's comparable to what a single Gorge can do). Multiple Gorges biling can still do a lot of damage by targeting multiple parts of the base at once.
Bile shouldn't be stacking at all. Currently it stacks with a single gorge, and stacks even more with each gorge you add. Personally I'm not a fan of DOTs to begin with.
This is EXTREMELY common. I can't tell you how many times I've lost a winning game due to a couple of bile bombers hitting a power node way behind the front line. Tier 3 weapon and armor? Exos? Swimming in res? Doesn't matter, game over.
Exactly. The biggest issue here is that the game is being ended by one or two people. What happened to NS2 being a team game?
Most of you will say the solution is to have someone defending the power node; that doesn't work.
Aside from your observations, the other reason that this doesn't work is since if some marines have to sit on defense - they lose by default.
Batteries need to power structures like they used to.
Still wouldn't help. One bile bomb takes out a battery.
I think Bile is fine, and necessary, at current power vs. Exos.
Disagree. No single lower lifeform should be soloing the 'ultimate weapon' on the opposing team. If you want gorges to be able to kill EXOs, take away the DOT so that gorges can't hide out of LOS while bile kills their target.
The bulk of the time it's "res node warz" where one team builds extractors/harvesters and the other team attacks them. (since we all know that attacking a static structure that can't fight back it the epitome of excitement, amitite?!?) Add in the inane power node mechanic and you have a game that revolves more about teams attacking the other team's static structures than the other team's players.
That's the nature of RTS games... You go for the workers/economy and the important structures. If you can avoid the other players army but still win - woopiedoo!
This isn't a pure RTS though, that's what keeps being overlooked. The RTS elements in the game are not supposed to overshadow the FPS elements. That's something the developers said a long time ago. NS2 is an FPS first and a RTS second, not the other way around.
The problem with Gorges ending games out of the blue is the randomness of it and how easy it can be done. That needs to be fixed I think, not toning down the RTS part of NS2 (the importance of disrupting economy and tech, not somehow emphasize more on frags).
That's not what I was getting at. I'd rather see a PROACTIVE response to disrupting the economy, not a REACTIVE response. Instead of making the fight over inanimate structures, make it over being able to *build* those structures. Have people fight for control of an area. Instead of one team walking in, building on a res node, leaving, then the other team attacks it while you're away. Teams should be fighting to establish that res node, and then once it is in place it should be hard to remove. Thus there will be pitched PvP battles to disrupt the other team's economy, instead of people holding down the M1 key to build, then the opponents holding down the M1 key to destroy.
Spacejew is obviously one of those players that just loves low effort cheese strats like mass bilebombing. Nobody in their right mind thinks bilebomb is fine as is, except rookies and trolls.
I think Bile is fine, and necessary, at current power vs. Exos. It's fine vs. buildings really. It's just unfair vs. power nodes. If they kept bile exactly as it is, but reduced strength by 33% vs. power nodes, I think it would solve a lot of these balance issues.
Magic numbers like this make the game too complicated for its own good - next we'll be increasing bile damage by 10% on the armory, reducing it by 10% on the obs, etc etc. Structures should have their HP balanced according to how fast they're supposed to go down, regardless of the ability doing it. If power nodes need all sorts of special rules to not mess up the game then there's a more serious underlying problem that needs to be addressed.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited February 2013
While I'm okay with both dot (can give extra time for marines) as well as multiple gorges stacking.. I highly dislike singular gorge stacking his own attacks..
No other mechanic in the game does this and it's not communicated to the player at all. Also lessens the impact teamwork could achieve.
Imagine if lerk spores and bite stacked for a singular lerk!
While I'm okay with both dot (can give extra time for marines) as well as multiple gorges stacking.. I highly dislike singular gorge stacking his own attacks..
No other mechanic in the game does this and it's not communicated to the player at all. Also lessens the impact teamwork could achieve.
Imagine if lerk spores and bite stacked for a singular lerk!
I would also be okay with this. It is a bit unintuitive that the bile DoT stacks with itself, I remember when not many people knew that. Forcing the Gorge to distribute his bile across a base would significantly lower the urgency of the attack while still being potentially devastating if not dealt with.
anyone that thinks the current bile is fine is naive or only plays with every competent comms and marines.
Two assumptions. Both wrong.
I disagree, and I'm not the only one. What's insulting is that you would suggest someone else is "wrong". Are you a developer? No? Then don't act like one.
Did you read what I quoted? Calling people who disagree "naive", or that they only play under specific conditions, is wrong.
This is part of the reason I now avoid responding to you. You may have some good ideas, but too much passion.
anyone that thinks the current bile is fine is naive or only plays with every competent comms and marines.
Two assumptions. Both wrong.
I disagree, and I'm not the only one. What's insulting is that you would suggest someone else is "wrong". Are you a developer? No? Then don't act like one.
Did you read what I quoted? Calling people who disagree "naive", or that they only play under specific conditions, is wrong.
This is part of the reason I now avoid responding to you. You may have some good ideas, but too much passion.
Seems like you're the only one that thinks gorge bile bomb is fine. You're solutions or ideas are not possible unless you with competent marines/comms.
Its attributes (range, splash radius, DOT, or stacking) needs to change.
I think Bile is fine, and necessary, at current power vs. Exos. It's fine vs. buildings really. It's just unfair vs. power nodes. If they kept bile exactly as it is, but reduced strength by 33% vs. power nodes, I think it would solve a lot of these balance issues.
The problem is, 4 aliens can split off into two teams of 2 gorges and bile bomb two separate, important base power nodes. And the marines must be in a position to get back to cover both bases within 15-20 seconds. That means marines have to keep a rearguard at all times just in case the aliens decide to use an extremely easy and cheap tactic. And if the marines kill the gorges? NP, it's just 10 resources.
A dual exo (75 res) is less effective at base killing than a gorge (10 res). That's a problem.
Except an exo is magnitudes more effective at killing other aliens and longer to take down and if they reach a hive can easily shoot it down at long range. So comparing them is like apples to oranges.
Bilebomb is fine, they just need to fix the alert system for when a powernode is underattack and if that doesnt fix it, implement some kind of method where the power node (or other buildings) with a CC built near it gets like maybe 33% more damage resistance ? something along those lines seem fair to give the marines a few more seconds to respond in some way.
A single marine can very easily kill a gorge while bilebomb is the only alien solution to destroy those tanky buildings without having to expose themselves directly. Marines should be punished if they do not have atleast 1 person (or commander keeping an eye on map) defending their building clusters.
Seems like you're the only one that thinks gorge bile bomb is fine. You're solutions or ideas are not possible unless you with competent marines/comms.
I'm not the only one that thinks improving the Marine alert system would help more than modifying an ability.
In my experience, "...not possible unless you with competent marines/comms." is not true.
While I'm okay with both dot (can give extra time for marines) as well as multiple gorges stacking.. I highly dislike singular gorge stacking his own attacks..
No other mechanic in the game does this and it's not communicated to the player at all. Also lessens the impact teamwork could achieve.
Imagine if lerk spores and bite stacked for a singular lerk!
The flamethrower kinda sorta does the same thing, although it's communicated even less to the player.
I think it would probably be a good idea to remove the damage stacking from multiple Gorges biling
Because teamplay should be punished and marine coms that can't scout a 2 or 3 alien push at their main base should be rewarded?
Why won't people see, that all you need to counter this is map awareness. Know what's going on at your frontline. Don't have huge blind spots that lead directly to your main base. Get IPs at your second base up if it isn't possible to build up a frontline that has no blind spots. Dedicate 1 or 2 marines to stay near a PG all the time, so they can react on an attack at any base in time. Or even better, dedicate your marines equally at attacks along the frontline. This way aliens can't sneak through most times. Use Observatories to get more map awareness if you won't pay for regular scans. Those good placed obs also have the advantage of letting you beacon when the power is already out in the main base.
If you've gotten to the point where you can be repeatedly rushed by an onos with two bilebombing gorges, then you've already lost.
What about the part where a 3 res node alien team that is losing just constantly 3-4 man gorge rushes different locations and obliterates a base before any reasonable action can be taken?
If they are losing so constantly then what are you doing ? Marine team is takin a nap ? Overteching ?
If the aliens attack at least 2 tec points simutaneously, then they are well coordinated. They are working as a team and the marine are unable to coodinate to answer the threat.
Every situation has it's Achillus's heel.
I've seen a lone flamethrower litterally devastate a cyst network on a 3 hives up refinery, should we blame the flamethrower or the aliens unable to take proper counter measure ?
The marine did nothing while this flamethower was hurting the network and harvesters, what should we blame now ? Want some "no recyst for xx seconds on burned surface" to compensate the marine team that failed to exploit ?
If you've gotten to the point where you can be repeatedly rushed by an onos with two bilebombing gorges, then you've already lost.
What about the part where a 3 res node alien team that is losing just constantly 3-4 man gorge rushes different locations and obliterates a base before any reasonable action can be taken?
If they are losing so constantly then what are you doing ? Marine team is takin a nap ? Overteching ?
If the aliens attack at least 2 tec points simutaneously, then they are well coordinated. They are working as a team and the marine are unable to coodinate to answer the threat.
Every situation has it's Achillus's heel.
I've seen a lone flamethrower litterally devastate a cyst network on a 3 hives up refinery, should we blame the flamethrower or the aliens unable to take proper counter measure ?
The marine did nothing while this flamethower was hurting the network and harvesters, what should we blame now ? Want some "no recyst for xx seconds on burned surface" to compensate the marine team that failed to exploit ?
A lone flamethrower is a nuisance/minor threat in the grand scheme of things. I fear Gorges much more than JP flamers when I comm the two sides. I feel bile is too strong but give me back my obs with passive scan, and a better alert system, and I might not have an issue with bile as it stands.
If you've gotten to the point where you can be repeatedly rushed by an onos with two bilebombing gorges, then you've already lost.
What about the part where a 3 res node alien team that is losing just constantly 3-4 man gorge rushes different locations and obliterates a base before any reasonable action can be taken?
If they are losing so constantly then what are you doing ? Marine team is takin a nap ? Overteching ?
If the aliens attack at least 2 tec points simutaneously, then they are well coordinated. They are working as a team and the marine are unable to coodinate to answer the threat.
Every situation has it's Achillus's heel.
I've seen a lone flamethrower litterally devastate a cyst network on a 3 hives up refinery, should we blame the flamethrower or the aliens unable to take proper counter measure ?
The marine did nothing while this flamethower was hurting the network and harvesters, what should we blame now ? Want some "no recyst for xx seconds on burned surface" to compensate the marine team that failed to exploit ?
The thing is, cyst slaughter is annoying at best, killing a massive cyst chain does not: Shut down hive egg production, disable their upgrades, cripple the entire teams ability to return home, all the while you have no clue it's even hitting you. etc, etc etc. 3-4 Gorges biling a single power node simply kills it too fast. Bile should not stack.
As I've said before, bile needs to be changed to hive three and be stronger, or it needs to be nerfed. People say they wish a nuke existed in NS2
It does. It's a giant ball of urine-looking space jizz, and it's shooting out of a pigs face.
Seems like you're the only one that thinks gorge bile bomb is fine. You're solutions or ideas are not possible unless you with competent marines/comms.
I'm not the only one that thinks improving the Marine alert system would help more than modifying an ability.
You're talking apples and oranges though. It's like saying that the notification system could alter how ARCs damage a hive.
Bile bomb is a DOT and bile bomb stacks. That means even if you got a notification the *instant* a bile bomb first hit the power node, it is already too late. Unless your idea of changes to the notification system include an alert the second a gorge comes within range of an observatory, then notification changes won't change the fact that bile bomb is overpowered.
Unless you have marines literally sitting on the power node, a couple gorges can take it out faster than you can respond and kill the gorges. That's a constant. Heck, one single gorge can do significant damage - even if you catch him the instant he starts to attack. Notification will not fix the gorge when his attacks stack AND deliver damage over time.
Once the bile bombs have been fired the damage is done, you can't stop it. All the notification in the world won't change that.
I think it would probably be a good idea to remove the damage stacking from multiple Gorges biling
...and marine coms that can't scout a 2 or 3 alien push at their main base should be rewarded?
Scouting doesn't do much and two gorges bile bomb a power node behind the frontlines, and once that power goes down, it's game over. It's not fair that aliens get a push-button-to-win advantage and marines don't even get anything decent to defend them with, aside from sacrificing manpower to turtle on defense. In regards to another issue, why do aliens get hydras and whips when marines get nothing that compares? Sentries, might as well just be removed from the game because they are completely worthless.
It's a sad day when 2 gorges are far more devastating than an Onos
marine coms that can't scout a 2 or 3 alien push at their main base should be rewarded?
Why won't people see, that all you need to counter this is map awareness. Know what's going on at your frontline. Don't have huge blind spots that lead directly to your main base.
Are you seriously contending that you can spot every skulk on the map? The maps are designed so that aliens can get almost anywhere undetected through the vent system, and a single skulk slipping past that then evolves outside of your base is all that's necessary for aliens to win.
I think it would probably be a good idea to remove the damage stacking from multiple Gorges biling
Because teamplay should be punished and marine coms that can't scout a 2 or 3 alien push at their main base should be rewarded?
Why won't people see, that all you need to counter this is map awareness. Know what's going on at your frontline. Don't have huge blind spots that lead directly to your main base. Get IPs at your second base up if it isn't possible to build up a frontline that has no blind spots. Dedicate 1 or 2 marines to stay near a PG all the time, so they can react on an attack at any base in time. Or even better, dedicate your marines equally at attacks along the frontline. This way aliens can't sneak through most times. Use Observatories to get more map awareness if you won't pay for regular scans. Those good placed obs also have the advantage of letting you beacon when the power is already out in the main base.
We have to face facts, most marine comms don't have this ideal amount of map awareness and it's causing problems for the game. When my team is doing really well and loses in the space of 10 seconds because of a blunder by the comm, saying "his map awareness sucks, he deserved to lose" is not much comfort to the rest of my team. It's about making a game that's fun to play.
Also, the fact that bile does DOT damage is atrocious. Gorges normally just bounce around in circles heal-spraying each other and bile bombing everything in site. By the time 2-4 marines kill them, the DOT damage has already whittled away most, if not all, of the nearby buildings' health, and even dead, the damage just keeps ticking away.
What exactly is the counter to that? It shouldn't take tier 3 shotguns to kill a pair of gorges. Even after you kill them, you are still FUBAR.
Now what I am about to suggest isn't an end-all solution by any means. It will however save your base with a small hit on your resources and time: Beacon. The first sign you ever get that a bile rush is coming, BEACON. Don't wait, Don't ask for people to phase, Don't get out of the chair.
Beacon, reset, and start over.
Is bile strong? Yes.
Is it overpowered? Debatable/Maybe a touch.
Are Power Nodes a subject for discussion? Probably.
Like many people have noted someone must always be at every base for the gorge rush (or near a PG). Most of you seem to forget that the goal of this game is to kill the other teams CC/Hive. When you are pressing on a hive, you know damn well one of your bases is going to get bile bombed/onos rushed/skulk rushed. You, as an all-knowing player, need to be the man that stays back as a deterrent/first warning. That's part of being a team game.
About comm map awareness - I've said it since NS1, a Commander is only as good as his marines. A lot of things you see on the ground, he doesn't.
I think it would probably be a good idea to remove the damage stacking from multiple Gorges biling
...and marine coms that can't scout a 2 or 3 alien push at their main base should be rewarded?
Scouting doesn't do much and two gorges bile bomb a power node behind the frontlines, and once that power goes down, it's game over. It's not fair that aliens get a push-button-to-win advantage and marines don't even get anything decent to defend them with, aside from sacrificing manpower to turtle on defense. In regards to another issue, why do aliens get hydras and whips when marines get nothing that compares? Sentries, might as well just be removed from the game because they are completely worthless.
It's a sad day when 2 gorges are far more devastating than an Onos
You should stop trying to find 1 entity at the other team that is comparable to that of the first team. True asymmetry doesn't have that. One team can have an advantage at some unit-types while the other excels at other unit-types. So there is no need to say: "Marines have this, why aliens doesn't have that?" You need to think further to see the whole balance picture, not just compare X with Y.
That said, I agree with you (as I wrote already) that power nodes are the problem. Not bile bomb. But there is another thread for this.
marine coms that can't scout a 2 or 3 alien push at their main base should be rewarded?
Why won't people see, that all you need to counter this is map awareness. Know what's going on at your frontline. Don't have huge blind spots that lead directly to your main base.
Are you seriously contending that you can spot every skulk on the map? The maps are designed so that aliens can get almost anywhere undetected through the vent system, and a single skulk slipping past that then evolves outside of your base is all that's necessary for aliens to win.
No. Of course I can't. Nobody is free of fail. But that one skulk that slips through and goes gorge normally doesn't end the game. It's the 4th or 5th gorge attack that finally comes through and end it. So it is not about being perfectly aware to 100%. But if you have 0% awareness you don't need to wonder that one gorge can finally, after he tried 3 times, wreck your base.
I think it would probably be a good idea to remove the damage stacking from multiple Gorges biling
Because teamplay should be punished and marine coms that can't scout a 2 or 3 alien push at their main base should be rewarded?
Why won't people see, that all you need to counter this is map awareness. Know what's going on at your frontline. Don't have huge blind spots that lead directly to your main base. Get IPs at your second base up if it isn't possible to build up a frontline that has no blind spots. Dedicate 1 or 2 marines to stay near a PG all the time, so they can react on an attack at any base in time. Or even better, dedicate your marines equally at attacks along the frontline. This way aliens can't sneak through most times. Use Observatories to get more map awareness if you won't pay for regular scans. Those good placed obs also have the advantage of letting you beacon when the power is already out in the main base.
We have to face facts, most marine comms don't have this ideal amount of map awareness and it's causing problems for the game. When my team is doing really well and loses in the space of 10 seconds because of a blunder by the comm, saying "his map awareness sucks, he deserved to lose" is not much comfort to the rest of my team. It's about making a game that's fun to play.
I agree with you on that. But again that is a problem with power nodes not bile bomb.
Also imagine those situations on the alien side. When marines have established 3 bases and defend them hard or when the Exo-train is rolling, your only 2 options are: Getting killed at direct engagements again and again. Or hitting a base where no defense is there at that time.
What I want to say with this is: Aliens depend on hitting where marines are not. In direct engagements (where marines can defend) aliens lose most of the time. And if not, marines will be back in 7 seconds.
Comments
This makes it just as effective if a skilled gorge is doing it within combat, but kills the effectiveness of suicide rushes, and gives the marines more time to respond.
The problem with Gorges ending games out of the blue is the randomness of it and how easy it can be done. That needs to be fixed I think, not toning down the RTS part of NS2 (the importance of disrupting economy and tech, not somehow emphasize more on frags).
The problem is, 4 aliens can split off into two teams of 2 gorges and bile bomb two separate, important base power nodes. And the marines must be in a position to get back to cover both bases within 15-20 seconds. That means marines have to keep a rearguard at all times just in case the aliens decide to use an extremely easy and cheap tactic. And if the marines kill the gorges? NP, it's just 10 resources.
A dual exo (75 res) is less effective at base killing than a gorge (10 res). That's a problem.
The warning system is a completely different issue, and while the current warning system is horrid, the warning system is NOT the "clear issue". Why? Because bile is a DOT, and once the DOT lands the damage is done. You can kill the gorge five times over but if the damage is done (and still ticking) all the warnings in the world won't fix the imbalance.
Bile shouldn't be stacking at all. Currently it stacks with a single gorge, and stacks even more with each gorge you add. Personally I'm not a fan of DOTs to begin with.
Exactly. The biggest issue here is that the game is being ended by one or two people. What happened to NS2 being a team game?
Aside from your observations, the other reason that this doesn't work is since if some marines have to sit on defense - they lose by default.
Still wouldn't help. One bile bomb takes out a battery.
Disagree. No single lower lifeform should be soloing the 'ultimate weapon' on the opposing team. If you want gorges to be able to kill EXOs, take away the DOT so that gorges can't hide out of LOS while bile kills their target.
This isn't a pure RTS though, that's what keeps being overlooked. The RTS elements in the game are not supposed to overshadow the FPS elements. That's something the developers said a long time ago. NS2 is an FPS first and a RTS second, not the other way around.
That's not what I was getting at. I'd rather see a PROACTIVE response to disrupting the economy, not a REACTIVE response. Instead of making the fight over inanimate structures, make it over being able to *build* those structures. Have people fight for control of an area. Instead of one team walking in, building on a res node, leaving, then the other team attacks it while you're away. Teams should be fighting to establish that res node, and then once it is in place it should be hard to remove. Thus there will be pitched PvP battles to disrupt the other team's economy, instead of people holding down the M1 key to build, then the opponents holding down the M1 key to destroy.
That's just not very fun.
Magic numbers like this make the game too complicated for its own good - next we'll be increasing bile damage by 10% on the armory, reducing it by 10% on the obs, etc etc. Structures should have their HP balanced according to how fast they're supposed to go down, regardless of the ability doing it. If power nodes need all sorts of special rules to not mess up the game then there's a more serious underlying problem that needs to be addressed.
No other mechanic in the game does this and it's not communicated to the player at all. Also lessens the impact teamwork could achieve.
Imagine if lerk spores and bite stacked for a singular lerk!
I would also be okay with this. It is a bit unintuitive that the bile DoT stacks with itself, I remember when not many people knew that. Forcing the Gorge to distribute his bile across a base would significantly lower the urgency of the attack while still being potentially devastating if not dealt with.
Did you read what I quoted? Calling people who disagree "naive", or that they only play under specific conditions, is wrong.
This is part of the reason I now avoid responding to you. You may have some good ideas, but too much passion.
Seems like you're the only one that thinks gorge bile bomb is fine. You're solutions or ideas are not possible unless you with competent marines/comms.
Its attributes (range, splash radius, DOT, or stacking) needs to change.
Except an exo is magnitudes more effective at killing other aliens and longer to take down and if they reach a hive can easily shoot it down at long range. So comparing them is like apples to oranges.
Bilebomb is fine, they just need to fix the alert system for when a powernode is underattack and if that doesnt fix it, implement some kind of method where the power node (or other buildings) with a CC built near it gets like maybe 33% more damage resistance ? something along those lines seem fair to give the marines a few more seconds to respond in some way.
A single marine can very easily kill a gorge while bilebomb is the only alien solution to destroy those tanky buildings without having to expose themselves directly. Marines should be punished if they do not have atleast 1 person (or commander keeping an eye on map) defending their building clusters.
I'm not the only one that thinks improving the Marine alert system would help more than modifying an ability.
In my experience, "...not possible unless you with competent marines/comms." is not true.
Because teamplay should be punished and marine coms that can't scout a 2 or 3 alien push at their main base should be rewarded?
Why won't people see, that all you need to counter this is map awareness. Know what's going on at your frontline. Don't have huge blind spots that lead directly to your main base. Get IPs at your second base up if it isn't possible to build up a frontline that has no blind spots. Dedicate 1 or 2 marines to stay near a PG all the time, so they can react on an attack at any base in time. Or even better, dedicate your marines equally at attacks along the frontline. This way aliens can't sneak through most times. Use Observatories to get more map awareness if you won't pay for regular scans. Those good placed obs also have the advantage of letting you beacon when the power is already out in the main base.
If they are losing so constantly then what are you doing ? Marine team is takin a nap ? Overteching ?
If the aliens attack at least 2 tec points simutaneously, then they are well coordinated. They are working as a team and the marine are unable to coodinate to answer the threat.
Every situation has it's Achillus's heel.
I've seen a lone flamethrower litterally devastate a cyst network on a 3 hives up refinery, should we blame the flamethrower or the aliens unable to take proper counter measure ?
The marine did nothing while this flamethower was hurting the network and harvesters, what should we blame now ? Want some "no recyst for xx seconds on burned surface" to compensate the marine team that failed to exploit ?
A lone flamethrower is a nuisance/minor threat in the grand scheme of things. I fear Gorges much more than JP flamers when I comm the two sides. I feel bile is too strong but give me back my obs with passive scan, and a better alert system, and I might not have an issue with bile as it stands.
The thing is, cyst slaughter is annoying at best, killing a massive cyst chain does not: Shut down hive egg production, disable their upgrades, cripple the entire teams ability to return home, all the while you have no clue it's even hitting you. etc, etc etc. 3-4 Gorges biling a single power node simply kills it too fast. Bile should not stack.
As I've said before, bile needs to be changed to hive three and be stronger, or it needs to be nerfed. People say they wish a nuke existed in NS2
It does. It's a giant ball of urine-looking space jizz, and it's shooting out of a pigs face.
Bile bomb is a DOT and bile bomb stacks. That means even if you got a notification the *instant* a bile bomb first hit the power node, it is already too late. Unless your idea of changes to the notification system include an alert the second a gorge comes within range of an observatory, then notification changes won't change the fact that bile bomb is overpowered.
Unless you have marines literally sitting on the power node, a couple gorges can take it out faster than you can respond and kill the gorges. That's a constant. Heck, one single gorge can do significant damage - even if you catch him the instant he starts to attack. Notification will not fix the gorge when his attacks stack AND deliver damage over time.
Once the bile bombs have been fired the damage is done, you can't stop it. All the notification in the world won't change that.
Scouting doesn't do much and two gorges bile bomb a power node behind the frontlines, and once that power goes down, it's game over. It's not fair that aliens get a push-button-to-win advantage and marines don't even get anything decent to defend them with, aside from sacrificing manpower to turtle on defense. In regards to another issue, why do aliens get hydras and whips when marines get nothing that compares? Sentries, might as well just be removed from the game because they are completely worthless.
It's a sad day when 2 gorges are far more devastating than an Onos
Are you seriously contending that you can spot every skulk on the map? The maps are designed so that aliens can get almost anywhere undetected through the vent system, and a single skulk slipping past that then evolves outside of your base is all that's necessary for aliens to win.
We have to face facts, most marine comms don't have this ideal amount of map awareness and it's causing problems for the game. When my team is doing really well and loses in the space of 10 seconds because of a blunder by the comm, saying "his map awareness sucks, he deserved to lose" is not much comfort to the rest of my team. It's about making a game that's fun to play.
What exactly is the counter to that? It shouldn't take tier 3 shotguns to kill a pair of gorges. Even after you kill them, you are still FUBAR.
Beacon, reset, and start over.
Is bile strong? Yes.
Is it overpowered? Debatable/Maybe a touch.
Are Power Nodes a subject for discussion? Probably.
Like many people have noted someone must always be at every base for the gorge rush (or near a PG). Most of you seem to forget that the goal of this game is to kill the other teams CC/Hive. When you are pressing on a hive, you know damn well one of your bases is going to get bile bombed/onos rushed/skulk rushed. You, as an all-knowing player, need to be the man that stays back as a deterrent/first warning. That's part of being a team game.
About comm map awareness - I've said it since NS1, a Commander is only as good as his marines. A lot of things you see on the ground, he doesn't.
That said, I agree with you (as I wrote already) that power nodes are the problem. Not bile bomb. But there is another thread for this. No. Of course I can't. Nobody is free of fail. But that one skulk that slips through and goes gorge normally doesn't end the game. It's the 4th or 5th gorge attack that finally comes through and end it. So it is not about being perfectly aware to 100%. But if you have 0% awareness you don't need to wonder that one gorge can finally, after he tried 3 times, wreck your base. I agree with you on that. But again that is a problem with power nodes not bile bomb.
Also imagine those situations on the alien side. When marines have established 3 bases and defend them hard or when the Exo-train is rolling, your only 2 options are: Getting killed at direct engagements again and again. Or hitting a base where no defense is there at that time.
What I want to say with this is: Aliens depend on hitting where marines are not. In direct engagements (where marines can defend) aliens lose most of the time. And if not, marines will be back in 7 seconds.