Sick of bile

Mad selectionMad selection Join Date: 2013-01-01 Member: 176967Members
**Nerf the goddamn bile on buildings at least!

The moment the marines try to push and leave their base you know what happen? 2 gorges, one onos if they want to be fancy and boum don't even have time to beacon unless you stick your nose on the goddamn power node it's ridiculous.

That means that not only you need to leave at least 2 marines at all time at your base but you also have to keep 15 ressources for 1 nano and one beacon because of course the moment the marines get a bit too far away from a phasegate aliens just have to attack with a minimum of manpower to level your base. Ho and the 2 marines left at base? They either walk away without saying a word forcing you to direct your troops like a real asshole or they get killed in 2 secs by a lerk and a skulk.
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Comments

  • EmooEmoo Ibasa Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11198Members
    However the point where you can be repeatedly rushed by two bile bombing gorges is not necessarily the point by which you've lost. It's still annoying as hell and quite possibly (unless your pretty fast and observant) the reason for your loss.
  • proteinstainproteinstain Join Date: 2003-12-14 Member: 24349Members
    edited February 2013
    it does need to be tone down, its an unlimited skill, AOE damage + damage over time + extremely long range. on top of the marine commander warning system being $h!T its a recipe for disaster. one gorge is able to take down a base, ive seen it happen on multiple occasions. and before you say " omg learn to defend n00b ".

    name one way one marine can take out an alien base. is ther alien disable all structure building? no. is their a way to counter grenade launchers? yes. is there a way to counter bile bomb? no.

    send one gorge (a support unit by the way) and one marine to each others bases and see the kind of damage each could wreck and in how long, regardless of what weapons/upgrade the marine has. one gorge can do more damage to a base then an onos the highest level offensive alien in the game.

    unbelievable people can defend it in it's current state.
  • FuleFule Join Date: 2009-06-04 Member: 67683Members
    edited February 2013
    Such is life on Clorf.
  • briatxbriatx Join Date: 2013-01-18 Member: 180352Members
    Yeah, or games where the Marines are rolling with Exos and about to win but power in main gets bilebombed because if the comm beacons all the Exos will die.

    Or the game where the Marines had us on the ropes but then we mass bile bombed and won anyway.

    Good thing the Gorge is getting buffed next patch too... sheesh.

    I hate Gorges so much. Maybe even more than Onos.
  • JAMESEARLJONOSJAMESEARLJONOS Join Date: 2012-12-15 Member: 175155Members
    Bile is fine. Its the only thing that lets aliens significantly pressure marines that are turtling hard.

    I do however, agree with the sentiment that commander alerts are awful and inconsistent. Not to mention the fact that units in range of an observatory don't show up on commander view without a scan.

    Better alerts and enemy units showing up in command view when next to buildings would probably address most complaints without screwing up balance.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    I think it's hard to say that bile needs nerfing until comm alerts are fixed. However, I am very curious to know what percentage of marine losses are a result of a base going down while the comm fails to respond fast enough. I've lost count of how many promising marine games were cut short because of that. Usually because of the power node, but the obs can just as easily go down first.
  • SpaceJewSpaceJew Join Date: 2012-09-03 Member: 157584Members
    If there are two Gorges pummeling your rear locations while your offensive force is pushing, guess which team has two fewer players to defend against the Marines push?

    This is a situation that happens often, and it almost always results in a base trade which of course hurts the Marines. The trade off is Marines can get every bit of research back online with just a structure, Aliens actually need to complete their research all over again from scratch. (Oh, and Marines can recycle whereas Aliens are just plain jane screwed.)

    I'm not even going to mention the fact that the commander could actually get out of the chair and use his rifle. Not going to mention that he could drop whatever gun he wants to help him out with that either. Is it really worth a beacon and a loss, or can a single commander with a shotgun kill two Gorges?
  • BentRingBentRing Join Date: 2003-03-04 Member: 14318Members
    One of the problems is that gorges are so cheap they are expendable, which is why I think 20 res with the first three hydras free would be something to try.
  • SpaceJewSpaceJew Join Date: 2012-09-03 Member: 157584Members
    BentRing wrote: »
    One of the problems is that gorges are so cheap they are expendable, which is why I think 20 res with the first three hydras free would be something to try.

    That's totally why everyone goes Gorge right at the start of the round, right? It's because Gorge is the best unit, right?

    Oh wait, that never happens...

    Not to mention that your suggestion saves the player 1 P.Res.

  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    Remember when you could rush a base with 2 gorges and it was going down before beacon was done?

    I think bile is pretty fine right now. In fact, I think the aoe damage could use a slight buff. Throw a bile 4 feet off a power node and you deal 70 damage to it. Whoopty doo. But yeah, I haven't seen gorges kill any structures solo in a looong time.

    Sure is annoying as hell though, lol. I would like to see gorge cost upped to 15 and bile damage increased slightly.
  • BentRingBentRing Join Date: 2003-03-04 Member: 14318Members
    edited February 2013
    SpaceJew wrote: »
    BentRing wrote: »
    One of the problems is that gorges are so cheap they are expendable, which is why I think 20 res with the first three hydras free would be something to try.

    That's totally why everyone goes Gorge right at the start of the round, right? It's because Gorge is the best unit, right?

    Oh wait, that never happens...

    Not to mention that your suggestion saves the player 1 P.Res.

    By saving the player 1 pres I assume you mean it costs the player 1 pres more than the current situation if the gorge drops three hydras. And whoever does or does not go gorge at the beginning of the game isn't even relevant since we are talking about bile bomb.

    Are we even reading the same thread?

    The point is it would cost 20 Pres to go on a suicidal bile bomb mission during the mid-late game regardless if you drop a hydra or not.

    If the alien have a bunch of harvesters then it won't be any different than now, but if the marines are doing their job and keeping the alien economy at a trickle, then it certainly could be.
  • SpaceJewSpaceJew Join Date: 2012-09-03 Member: 157584Members
    If you go gorge at the beginning of the round you're probably a gorge or a lerk the entire round. Maybe you do get too much bang for your buck with a gorge, but making gorge cost more isn't going to seriously deter a gorge from doing exactly what they've always done. Namely, bile bomb structures.

    A commander with a shotgun will shut down two Gorges bile bombing base. Or heaven forbid he have a grenade launcher or a flamethrower. MAC's can fix everything if you're in a time crunch, they don't take long to build and we're talking end-game pushes here right? If this is mid-game you still saved your base and shut out two Gorges that you won't see again for a minimum of 30 seconds. That's more than enough time to kill a hive, especially if they're two men short.

    The flaw in your logic here is that a gorge doesn't need to suicide to bile bomb.

    I also wonder if people are talking about Gorges with adrenaline or without, because Bile Bomb seems to take forever without Adrenaline. Still effective, just vastly less so than otherwise.

    I'm not against the idea of different Marines alerts based on what's under attack. Acid warning would be nice, as well as a power node warning. (Although can you imagine how annoying it would be for a skulk to keep up a power node alert with their parasite? You know you'd do it too.)
  • Metal ManMetal Man Join Date: 2011-11-13 Member: 132717Members
    I'll try to stay on the subject of bile bomb, but I do want to explain a thing or two (most of you probably know this). This game is very conflicted by having an alien comm and gorge. Gorges used to be so important (NS1). Killing that 10 res creature literally turned the tide of the battle (especially if he was so close to dropping a structure or RT). Bile bomb was similar in its use, however, a gorge couldn't go rambo into a marines base and destroy everything. Well, he could, but it would be extremely risk to the entire alien team and resource accumulation.

    Now a gorge's death has absolutely NO CONSEQUENCE. Hydras are cheap and don't make the biggest impact on the game. If the gorge dies the team will continue to get resources, structures, and upgrades via the alien commander. The gorge can simply re-gorge or stay as a skulk. No impact...

    So I am trying my best not to derail this thread. Obviously we can't just remove the alien commander. So, considering there is a new all powerful alien unit (the commander) why is the gorge almost identical to NS1? Same resource cost, same powerful bile bomb (maybe stronger? not sure), LESS responsibility and consequence, faster with belly slide. It's way too effective.

    I don't develop video games for a living but I think most players can agree how big of a concern this is. Either the gorge needs more structure responsibility (maybe not RTs but it needs to be a structure more vital than a hydra... i mean hydras are even less impactful than the old offense chambers and that is the ONLY structure they can drop... oh yeah clogs) OR change their cost, strength, health, survivability or BILE BOMB damage output. I don't know about this because if the gorge is already too weak to be weakened further. We don't want to make the class any weaker.

    That being said, I think the strength and ability of the gorge is at a good spot. Honestly they just need more consequence to dying. Maybe making them cost 20 res wouldn't be the worst idea. UW should make a quick patch (It can't take more than a day to do) up the cost to 20 and see what changes. Just try it guys it can't hurt. Unpatch it in a couple days if it breaks the game. But it won't break it anymore than it already is broken. GL HF DD
  • SampsonSampson Join Date: 2012-01-06 Member: 139769Members
    perhaps increasing damage but decrease the distance a gorge can bile? right now, they can bile like 50 ft away... would make exos harder to kill tho...
  • TyrsisTyrsis Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8804Members
    This seems like a notification issue more than just bile being OP. You need to be more mindful of attacks, nanoshield the node, and beacon. If you beacon without a nano or even worse, just yell, "phase back" and you don't act quickly or assess the threat properly, you're going to lose the node, and most likely the base. If you have allowed the aliens to have onos and they are gorging behind him, you can't have the entire team out pushing. You need to supplement a partial team attack with ARCs, or do an exo push with only part of the team, while the rest defend or harass nearby.

    There is something marine's do that is exactly like this, and it's called ninja phase gates. If you're a kham and don't pay attention to cysts dropping, or you haven't cysted a hive area properly, and a phase gate appears in your hive, then there's no one to blame but yourself. This is really the same situation. If you allow an onos + 2 gorges to squash your base before you can react, then you have to be more mindful, place your obs better, and actually watch your macro and don't get too much tunnel vision with your microing.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2013
    Honestly I almost never see a commander nanoshield the power node. Like literally 1 in 10 games if that. I don't think many comms realize you can do that - for some reason it just hasn't reached public awareness yet even after all these months. Maybe it's because most comms don't even see them as a structure to interact with, since they're map props that drop automatically.
  • SampsonSampson Join Date: 2012-01-06 Member: 139769Members
    Zek wrote: »
    Honestly I almost never see a commander nanoshield the power node. Like literally 1 in 10 games if that. I don't think many comms realize you can do that - for some reason it just hasn't reached public awareness yet even after all these months. Maybe it's because most comms don't even see them as a structure to interact with, since they're map props that drop automatically.

    it's a competetive thing tbh
  • SeahuntsSeahunts Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151973Members
    Fix the notification system for power nodes and the obs passive ability. Leave bile alone.
  • StoneburgStoneburg Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
    Actually I think that the vast majority of games that I have lost as a commander when we are in a dominant position is due to bilebombs. I'm not saying it should be nerfed, but in big servers the "problem" is very much accentuated. The reason is that you can have 3 gorges run in and bilebom your powernode and you basically have to IMMEDIATLY identify what is happening and IMMEDIATLY beacon or power will be down in a manner of seconds. Once power is down, 3 gorges will usually clean up your base before anyone can get back. And as stated, this costs only 30 pres so it's a great deal for aliens.

    So yes, a problem, but obviously there are some in game solutions. I didn't know it was possible to nano-shield the node, never seen it done, but will definetely do that in the future. What I've been doing is putting armories around the node (which seems kind of silly). I guess you could leave marines guarding, but when you have 3 tech locations that pretty much means you need half your team on guard duty, leaving very little for attacking. So if they don't try to bilebomb, your attacking group is outnumbered 2:1, and even if they do, they are still locking up more players than they are using themselves.

    Using nano-shield was a very useful tip though, I will definetely do that in the future.
  • CiroCiro Join Date: 2013-01-09 Member: 178392Members
    name one way one marine can take out an alien base.

    Egg-lock.
    briatx wrote: »
    Yeah, or games where the Marines are rolling with Exos and about to win but power in main gets bilebombed because if the comm beacons all the Exos will die.

    Or the game where the Marines had us on the ropes but then we mass bile bombed and won anyway.

    A tech point, with structures, is usually worth more than a few Exo. Those Exo can retreat, take a defensive position, or continue their assault. There some games where Marines decide to sacrifice one tech point to take out two Alien Hives.

    If the Marines had you "on the ropes" then it shouldn't have been so easy to counter attack. Having two Hives and having resources to set-up a counter attack likely means you weren't doing as bad as you thought. On the ropes would be 1 Hive, with maybe another one building, and 2 nodes.
    Zek wrote: »
    Honestly I almost never see a commander nanoshield the power node. Like literally 1 in 10 games if that. I don't think many comms realize you can do that - for some reason it just hasn't reached public awareness yet even after all these months. Maybe it's because most comms don't even see them as a structure to interact with, since they're map props that drop automatically.

    Yeah.... I've had plead with Comms to Nano-shield the Power Node, Phase Gate, etc. It's really helpful for defending Resource Nodes too; just ask the Comm to shield the node, so you have time to get there. Comms need to see how powerful it is.

    It can be painful playing against a Comm that shields. It requires more effort (in both planning and force) to take anything out. Everything keeps get a shield.
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Ciro wrote: »
    name one way one marine can take out an alien base.
    Egg-lock.
    If a single marine can egg-lock the aliens, it's only because they were dying so much they were short on eggs to begin with. An egg is 350/25, which is 400 effective hit points. A weapon 0 marine would need 40 bullets to kill one egg. To shoot 40 bullets takes 4 seconds. If the alien team has the maximum 9 eggs in their hive area, then it will take over a half-minute for the marine to kill them all, assuming that the khamm isn't in that hive - which if he is he should be trying to kill him if feasible. Even still, the aliens should be responding to it, or more importantly, should be aware of it before the marine gets there. (drifters)

    Solo marines never win the game for marines - at least not against alien teams that have the least bit of competence.
  • OnosFactoryOnosFactory New Zealand Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Members
    Bile usually comes after you are sick?

    Jokes aside, maybe a 4th lerk (or 3rd hive alternatives/choices, is it 'allowed' to sugget that?) upgrade that nanoacid eats armour instead of health?
  • dragonmithdragonmith Join Date: 2013-02-04 Member: 182817Members, Reinforced - Diamond
    I think we should at least wait until the big update that's upcoming (morgeous? borgeous? slorgeous?) because that will increase the value of gorge massively (babblers and tunnel), which most likely means an increase in cost, along with a host of other new details.

    Why don't we hold fire until more is known? :)
  • XaoXao Join Date: 2012-12-12 Member: 174840Members
    Gorge could easily be upped to 15 res life form without a lot whinging that would definitely put a curb on people being able to throw away 3-5 gorges a game just suiciding a base, bile bomb AOE is also far too large, most tech points are cramped and marines structures need to be clumped to be effective, you want IPs/PG/Armoury which will be adv arm in main base close together, obs is either covering likely approaches or covering buildings so it's nearly in the mix too, not sure on the numbers of bile but it could be dropped by 1m easily.

    Hitting 3-5+ buildings with bile is bullshit any day of the week, the fact you can do it from such range and with adren it takes about 15-20 seconds to run out of energy and it'll kill nearly every building in the game is even more ridiculous.
  • hakenspithakenspit Join Date: 2010-11-26 Member: 75300Members
    Xao wrote: »
    Gorge could easily be upped to 15 res life form without a lot whinging that would definitely put a curb on people being able to throw away 3-5 gorges a game just suiciding a base, bile bomb AOE is also far too large, most tech points are cramped and marines structures need to be clumped to be effective, you want IPs/PG/Armoury which will be adv arm in main base close together, obs is either covering likely approaches or covering buildings so it's nearly in the mix too, not sure on the numbers of bile but it could be dropped by 1m easily.

    Hitting 3-5+ buildings with bile is bullshit any day of the week, the fact you can do it from such range and with adren it takes about 15-20 seconds to run out of energy and it'll kill nearly every building in the game is even more ridiculous.
    No more BS than arcs hitting multiple building....even better they can do that through walls...gorges need line of sight.
    Arcs do more damage and are harder to take down than 1 gorge.

    Gorges costing 15 ...maybe if hydras where free (with the current 3 cap) otherwise I see this as another expense that will hurt the aliens more often than it would save issues for marines (after all by mid - late game 15 res like 10 res is not a lot).
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    edited February 2013
    I still don't understand why the Gorge is so self sufficient in destroying a base. The idea of it not being able to defend itself is irrelevant because almost all successful bile rushes are suicide attacks anyway. Bile bomb should apply a damage multiplier to structures, that normal damage units can take advantage of.
    A lone gorge should not pose a serious threat to a base.
    A gorge and a single skulk should pose a moderate threat to light structures, like observatories and infantry portals.
    A gorge and 2 or more skulks should pose a serious threat to structures of high importance such as comm chairs and power nodes.

    I would very much like to see Hydras being made attractive to drop during a base rush with gorges.
  • NammNamm Join Date: 2011-12-08 Member: 137116Members
    edited February 2013
    There was a suggestion about making Sentries able to track and destroy Bile Bombs midair, forcing the Aliens to overwhelm Sentries before they can land Bile Bombs. So, a few Sentries could keep a base quite secure from ninja Gorges.
    |strofix| wrote: »
    Bile bomb should apply a damage multiplier to structures, that normal damage units can take advantage of.
    It's a support unit, so that makes sense.
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