Linux / NS2 / Steam

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Comments

  • SixtyWattManSixtyWattMan Join Date: 2004-09-05 Member: 31404Members
    AuroN2 wrote: »
    one: Works on linux: Two: it gives you more fps than direct x ever will (ask valve) three: it's open bloody source.
    Please explain how OpenGL ISN'T better?!
    Edit: Are you one of those big corporations give better support than open sourced communities guys?
    Because trust me, they don't.

    one: I'll give you that.
    two: Provide evidence.
    three: That doesn't make it better, it just makes it open source. Of course something being open source is better than it not being open source but we can't exactly go around saying OpenGL is better than DirectX or Gimp is better than Photoshop.
  • shonanshonan Join Date: 2013-01-28 Member: 182562Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    AuroN2 wrote: »
    one: Works on linux: Two: it gives you more fps than direct x ever will (ask valve) three: it's open bloody source.
    Please explain how OpenGL ISN'T better?!
    Edit: Are you one of those big corporations give better support than open sourced communities guys?
    Because trust me, they don't.

    one: I'll give you that.
    two: Provide evidence.
    three: That doesn't make it better, it just makes it open source. Of course something being open source is better than it not being open source but we can't exactly go around saying OpenGL is better than DirectX or Gimp is better than Photoshop.

    Two: I dont provide any more evidence but it (better performance on Linux than on WIndows) has been proven by many sources.
  • SixtyWattManSixtyWattMan Join Date: 2004-09-05 Member: 31404Members
    shonan wrote: »
    AuroN2 wrote: »
    one: Works on linux: Two: it gives you more fps than direct x ever will (ask valve) three: it's open bloody source.
    Please explain how OpenGL ISN'T better?!
    Edit: Are you one of those big corporations give better support than open sourced communities guys?
    Because trust me, they don't.

    one: I'll give you that.
    two: Provide evidence.
    three: That doesn't make it better, it just makes it open source. Of course something being open source is better than it not being open source but we can't exactly go around saying OpenGL is better than DirectX or Gimp is better than Photoshop.

    Two: I dont provide any more evidence but it (better performance on Linux than on WIndows) has been proven by many sources.

    *Citation needed
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    AuroN2 wrote: »
    Also, talesin's on a vendetta people, TO THE TRENCHES!

    I'm tempted to post a funny gif but that might bring the ban hammers out.

  • RyneRyne Join Date: 2012-02-25 Member: 147408Members, NS2 Map Tester
    edited February 2013
    shonan wrote: »
    AuroN2 wrote: »
    one: Works on linux: Two: it gives you more fps than direct x ever will (ask valve) three: it's open bloody source.
    Please explain how OpenGL ISN'T better?!
    Edit: Are you one of those big corporations give better support than open sourced communities guys?
    Because trust me, they don't.

    one: I'll give you that.
    two: Provide evidence.
    three: That doesn't make it better, it just makes it open source. Of course something being open source is better than it not being open source but we can't exactly go around saying OpenGL is better than DirectX or Gimp is better than Photoshop.

    Two: I dont provide any more evidence but it (better performance on Linux than on WIndows) has been proven by many sources.

    *Citation needed

    Just a single instance, but the Steam Linux dev blog has an interesting tidbit: http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/faster-zombies/

    The surprising thing is that they have been predominately Windows developers, and got the Linux version running faster in a relatively short timespam.

    edit: also note, they got L4D2 running faster under OpenGL in Windows than it did with Direct3D
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    Last time I tried Ubuntu it took me 2 hours to get Nvidia drivers installed because of errors.....then after it did successfully install, there was no way for me to tell if the Nvidia card was actually being used.... after that I was like... screw linux... never using it again. I'll just pay the $100 or so for a windows OS when I need it for hassle free gaming.

    Official binary blobs from AMD and nVidia are part of the official repository and in the Ubuntu software center. It has gotten a lot simpler.
  • CommunistWithAGunCommunistWithAGun Local Propaganda Guy Join Date: 2003-04-30 Member: 15953Members
    Exoskelett wrote: »
    true - okay well actually after an hour of trying ubuntu im out - im done with it. its pretty tricky to use but most disturbing thing is just that i couldnt install any software without any bugs crashes or errors not even steam ._.' might shouda try again in some months/years dunno - i think theres just no use for such OS as long as they lack support by everybody maybe windows 9 becomes much more worse as Vista/7/8 but gaming on computer might dies before if there wont be any serious competition

    anyways hopefully you guys keep us updated if Linux Support for server/OS will be ready

    haha. No use for Unix basied systems?

    I just wanted to point out this post for us to laugh at
  • 0ni0ni Join Date: 2012-08-30 Member: 156991Members
    edited February 2013
    I will say that I take an issue with over use as the Valve test as proof of openGL being faster then Direct3D. That said I've run Trine 2 and Team Fortress 2 on my computer with very similar results. Neither of those games are particularly heavy though and I am a sample size of one. Given that Linux, the steam client and TF2 are all free I suggest some other people give it a wing.

    *snip* Thread cleanup. -Talesin

    I sent an email asking about linux support, here was the response I recieved.
    Max McGuire <max@unknownworlds.com>
    12/21/12

    to me
    Hi CENSORED,

    We're currently working on the Linux port of the dedicated server. We're hoping to have this done for a big update to the game in January. After that we'll be working in an OpenGL implementation of the renderer, which we may try to do as an open source/community project so we can move it along faster.

    As a side note screw Ubuntu, I can't stand Unity/Gnome3. Use anything else for the love of all things not retarded. I have a Mint, Xubuntu and Arch installed on various computers in my house and all of them work flawlessly except one of my Arch installs that uses E17 and for one of the monitors in portrait mode the text in title bars doesn't always stay in the window. :s
    I'd fix it but it's not that bad and it's just for watching youtube and chatting on IRC in the garage. My problems with Ubuntu, osx and win8 are all the same, I can't stand it when my computer treats me like I'm stupid. I mean sure, I don't have a phD or anything, I probably won't get picked for the Mars mission, but I can still operate a god damn terminal because it's really not rocket science.

    Got NS2 running under wine right now. I've heard rumours that some people have been able to get rid of this cursed flicker. Don't suppose anyone here is one of those people? As an aside though the flickering is frequent and consistent enough that I've started timing my blinking to make better use of the time. It's still really irritating though and I'm tired of getting my ass kicked because of it. I also get my ass kicked because I suck... but the flickering doesn't help. :p


    TL;DR: You should see a book, they're even longer. apt-get patience and read a couple sentences.
  • CabooseCaboose title = name(self, handle) Join Date: 2003-02-15 Member: 13597Members, Constellation
    A Linux client is an aspirational goal that may one day be achieved if NS2 continues to grow and be a long term success. A Linux server is very far advanced and being worked on every day.

    Any Linux client will have to have a viable business case in its own right.!
    You mean besides the fact that Linux users would love a modern gaming graphics engine as easy to make mods for, as Spark is, on their long neglected platform?

  • stickybootstickyboot Join Date: 2004-01-29 Member: 25711Members, Constellation
    edited February 2013
    shonan wrote: »
    AuroN2 wrote: »
    one: Works on linux: Two: it gives you more fps than direct x ever will (ask valve) three: it's open bloody source.
    Please explain how OpenGL ISN'T better?!
    Edit: Are you one of those big corporations give better support than open sourced communities guys?
    Because trust me, they don't.

    one: I'll give you that.
    two: Provide evidence.
    three: That doesn't make it better, it just makes it open source. Of course something being open source is better than it not being open source but we can't exactly go around saying OpenGL is better than DirectX or Gimp is better than Photoshop.

    Two: I dont provide any more evidence but it (better performance on Linux than on WIndows) has been proven by many sources.

    *Citation needed

    This actually made a bit of a media splash a little while ago. I'm surprised you missed it:
    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTE1MjI
    http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/faster-zombies/

    Furthermore, OpenGL is an open source technology, with more people working on it than DirectX. It runs on more operating systems, supports features faster than directX, and we are finding out, runs more efficiently that DirectX. Microsoft even locks out new directX versions from older versions of windows operating systems for business reasons. There is no reason directX 11.1 has to be windows 8 exclusive, and there is no sane reason the gaming community should support such bullshit.

    If you want a more developed argument, the guys over at wolfire did a good job about why they chose OpenGL:
    http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX

    And finally, with the advent of windows 8 and all of its fuckery, the future of DirectX is being called into question:
    http://games.slashdot.org/story/13/02/01/0245208/microsoft-phases-out-xna-and-directx

    Should we really, as a a community of gamers, build on top of a shaky system that is DirectX? Microsoft has dropped the ball at every corner when it comes to gaming. GFWL? NO THANK YOU. Monthly fees and shitty locked down PCs they call Xbox? Nope! I dont want one.

    Microsoft has been terrible to the PC gaming community, and its about time we start looking for a truly viable alternative. Apple is the wrong company, as they are proving to be even more closed than Microsoft with their increasing iOSification of all of their products. You can't even realistically build a mac with your own hardware. I'm sorry, hackintoshs do not count as anything more than what they are, a hack. The only option left, really, is Linux. It has its growing pains, but as more people adopt it to get away from the bullshit of microsoft, it will improve. Its technically superior in so many ways already, its just a bitch to use. Ubuntu is putting a lot of effort into UX, even if they do manage to abandon some of the more traditional philosophies of linux and floss software.
  • SixtyWattManSixtyWattMan Join Date: 2004-09-05 Member: 31404Members
    stickyboot wrote: »
    shonan wrote: »
    AuroN2 wrote: »
    one: Works on linux: Two: it gives you more fps than direct x ever will (ask valve) three: it's open bloody source.
    Please explain how OpenGL ISN'T better?!
    Edit: Are you one of those big corporations give better support than open sourced communities guys?
    Because trust me, they don't.

    one: I'll give you that.
    two: Provide evidence.
    three: That doesn't make it better, it just makes it open source. Of course something being open source is better than it not being open source but we can't exactly go around saying OpenGL is better than DirectX or Gimp is better than Photoshop.

    Two: I dont provide any more evidence but it (better performance on Linux than on WIndows) has been proven by many sources.

    *Citation needed

    This actually made a bit of a media splash a little while ago. I'm surprised you missed it:
    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTE1MjI
    http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/faster-zombies/

    Furthermore, OpenGL is an open source technology, with more people working on it than DirectX. It runs on more operating systems, supports features faster than directX, and we are finding out, runs more efficiently that DirectX. Microsoft even locks out new directX versions from older versions of windows operating systems for business reasons. There is no reason directX 11.1 has to be windows 8 exclusive, and there is no sane reason the gaming community should support such bullshit.

    If you want a more developed argument, the guys over at wolfire did a good job about why they chose OpenGL:
    http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX

    And finally, with the advent of windows 8 and all of its fuckery, the future of DirectX is being called into question:
    http://games.slashdot.org/story/13/02/01/0245208/microsoft-phases-out-xna-and-directx

    Should we really, as a a community of gamers, build on top of a shaky system that is DirectX? Microsoft has dropped the ball at every corner when it comes to gaming. GFWL? NO THANK YOU. Monthly fees and shitty locked down PCs they call Xbox? Nope! I dont want one.

    Microsoft has been terrible to the PC gaming community, and its about time we start looking for a truly viable alternative. Apple is the wrong company, as they are proving to be even more closed than Microsoft with their increasing iOSification of all of their products. You can't even realistically build a mac with your own hardware. I'm sorry, hackintoshs do not count as anything more than what they are, a hack. The only option left, really, is Linux. It has its growing pains, but as more people adopt it to get away from the bullshit of microsoft, it will improve. It technically superior in so many ways already, its just a bitch to use. Ubuntu is putting a lot of effort into UX, even if they do manage to abandon some of the more traditional philosophies of linux and floss software.
    Wahh. Microsoft has been setting the standard for 3D APIs for the past 2 decades. Wahh. They are so mean to us.

  • CurveCurve Join Date: 2003-12-17 Member: 24475Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Would happily stop using Windows if the option was there.
  • shonanshonan Join Date: 2013-01-28 Member: 182562Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2013
    stickyboot wrote: »
    shonan wrote: »
    AuroN2 wrote: »
    one: Works on linux: Two: it gives you more fps than direct x ever will (ask valve) three: it's open bloody source.
    Please explain how OpenGL ISN'T better?!
    Edit: Are you one of those big corporations give better support than open sourced communities guys?
    Because trust me, they don't.

    one: I'll give you that.
    two: Provide evidence.
    three: That doesn't make it better, it just makes it open source. Of course something being open source is better than it not being open source but we can't exactly go around saying OpenGL is better than DirectX or Gimp is better than Photoshop.

    Two: I dont provide any more evidence but it (better performance on Linux than on WIndows) has been proven by many sources.

    *Citation needed

    This actually made a bit of a media splash a little while ago. I'm surprised you missed it:
    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTE1MjI
    http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/faster-zombies/

    Furthermore, OpenGL is an open source technology, with more people working on it than DirectX. It runs on more operating systems, supports features faster than directX, and we are finding out, runs more efficiently that DirectX. Microsoft even locks out new directX versions from older versions of windows operating systems for business reasons. There is no reason directX 11.1 has to be windows 8 exclusive, and there is no sane reason the gaming community should support such bullshit.

    If you want a more developed argument, the guys over at wolfire did a good job about why they chose OpenGL:
    http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX

    And finally, with the advent of windows 8 and all of its fuckery, the future of DirectX is being called into question:
    http://games.slashdot.org/story/13/02/01/0245208/microsoft-phases-out-xna-and-directx

    Should we really, as a a community of gamers, build on top of a shaky system that is DirectX? Microsoft has dropped the ball at every corner when it comes to gaming. GFWL? NO THANK YOU. Monthly fees and shitty locked down PCs they call Xbox? Nope! I dont want one.

    Microsoft has been terrible to the PC gaming community, and its about time we start looking for a truly viable alternative. Apple is the wrong company, as they are proving to be even more closed than Microsoft with their increasing iOSification of all of their products. You can't even realistically build a mac with your own hardware. I'm sorry, hackintoshs do not count as anything more than what they are, a hack. The only option left, really, is Linux. It has its growing pains, but as more people adopt it to get away from the bullshit of microsoft, it will improve. It technically superior in so many ways already, its just a bitch to use. Ubuntu is putting a lot of effort into UX, even if they do manage to abandon some of the more traditional philosophies of linux and floss software.
    Wahh. Microsoft has been setting the standard for 3D APIs for the past 2 decades. Wahh. They are so mean to us.

    Please ban this asshat already, every time I see a post by him its just trolling/flamebaiting.

    https://i4.minus.com/jbphMK96pJveZd.png
  • stickybootstickyboot Join Date: 2004-01-29 Member: 25711Members, Constellation
    edited February 2013
    Wahh. Microsoft has been setting the standard for 3D APIs for the past 2 decades. Wahh. They are so mean to us.

    For someone with such refined opinions, you have a whole lot of nothing to say. The answer to this topic is yes, maybe a linux/osx port if the resources are available. And tangentially, there are probably some advantages to directx along side a whole lot of microsoft imposed bottlenecks, but there are also lot of advantage to opengl in ways that I think are important.

    But seriously, if you have anything to add please have at it, otherwise you are digging your own hole deeper.
  • SixtyWattManSixtyWattMan Join Date: 2004-09-05 Member: 31404Members
    ironhorse wrote: »
    Because your comments are trollish - you don't even seem interested whatsoever in an actual debate or argument. Just inflammatory and inciting single sentences with the occasional video..

    But you're right about what i offered.
    While it goes against my principle, it isn't smart to offer such a thing, so as much as it burns me to i'll retract my offer and edit my post.

    I'm genuinely interested in an actual reply from you though on the subject?

    I love Linux, I think it's amazing and I use it all the time. I also think that anyone who thinks it's ready for desktop primetime is out of their minds. It's just missing so much software and hardware support I can't justify telling anyone to use it. I'm also getting sick of this, "Once there is Steam for Linux I'm done with Windows attitude," because those people are full of shit. Valve is not the savior Linux needs, not even close. Linux doesn't need fucking Steam, it needs AutoCAD, Protools, driver support, Microsoft Office, Adobe Suite, etc, etc, etc. If you want a good watch, go on youtube and look up "Why Linux Sucks."

    And for all these people saying OpenGL is better than DirectX, even John Carmack has said DirectX is better than OpenGL and that the only reason ID hasn't switched is basically because they've always used OpenGL. I, just like everyone else, do not like the fact that DirectX ties us to Windows though.
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    I would use Ubuntu if Windows wasn't better.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    Fair enough point, but i think you underestimate the power of gaming on an OS.
    Gaming has been helping push hardware for a very long time now, and this means that hardware support you mentioned.
    Hell that's what windows 95 was, better support for gaming with DirectX! (everything was on opengl) Allowing all sorts of high performance multimedia programs to be ran. Graphics cards adopting it ensued and then it became all that was developed for pretty much.

    My point is this:
    It is a big deal. It may not be a savior but its a huge margin considering how gaming has shaped software and hardware support in the past. Your very reason for not adopting it is exactly what Valve has started to help with. The hail mary (looks at 1% adoption rate of linux) is that more will follow suit and this will take hold as a viable platform and get the rest of the support that it needs. If you love Linux like you say you do, then understand it needs all it can get, up against industry standard king Microsoft, who literally makes the rules considering how far in bed it is with hardware manufactures.

    p.s. I was gonna ask for source, but i found what you were referring to and Carmack didnt say DX is better, he said:
    "OpenGL still works fine," Carmack told Bit-Tech, "and we wouldn’t get any huge benefits by making the switch, so I can’t work up much enthusiasm for cleaning it out of our codebase. If it was just a matter of the game code, we could quite quickly produce a DirectX PC executable, but all of our tool code has to share resources with the game renderer, and I wouldn’t care to go over all of that for a dubious win."
  • SixtyWattManSixtyWattMan Join Date: 2004-09-05 Member: 31404Members
    |strofix| wrote: »
    I would use Ubuntu if Windows wasn't better.

    This is the smartest thing you've ever said.
  • CabooseCaboose title = name(self, handle) Join Date: 2003-02-15 Member: 13597Members, Constellation
    |strofix| wrote: »
    I would use Ubuntu if Windows wasn't better.

    This is the smartest thing you've ever said.
    Except that's a very subjective opinion. A more objective statement is that Windows is better marketed.

    Also, nice inflammatory and inciting single sentence reply.

  • PeppermintNightmarePeppermintNightmare Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182743Members
    "Once there is Steam for Linux I'm done with Windows attitude," because those people are full of shit. Valve is not the savior Linux needs, not even close. Linux doesn't need fucking Steam, it needs AutoCAD, Protools, driver support, Microsoft Office, Adobe Suite, etc, etc, etc. If you want a good watch, go on youtube and look up "Why Linux Sucks."

    And for all these people saying OpenGL is better than DirectX, even John Carmack has said DirectX is better than OpenGL and that the only reason ID hasn't switched is basically because they've always used OpenGL. I, just like everyone else, do not like the fact that DirectX ties us to Windows though.

    Not sure how I feel about the hardware support thing, but yes, I would need Ableton/Maschine/Lightroom/Photoshop/Steam/NS2 to make the switch at home, as it is I use it all day at work. Loathe using the windows boxes at work now!! I don't really like Office/Outlook but I understand a lot of people use those, I'm pretty content with Thunderbird and Libreoffice but I know there are some incompatibilities with complex documents formatted in MS stuff. I'm pretty lucky I generally get sent everything in PDF and all my docx/xlsx seem to open fine.

  • 0ni0ni Join Date: 2012-08-30 Member: 156991Members
    SixWattMan wrote:
    ...it needs AutoCAD, Protools, driver support, Microsoft Office, Adobe Suite, etc, etc, etc...
    AutoCAD works very very well on linux. I use it almost every day, I have not had any problems. I've also used Protools without any issues but I've not spent that much time with it. openoffice is more then adequate for most peoples needs. I've only ever had driver issues with a few wireless cards and in most cases printer drivers are easier. Adobe stuff though I agree with, can't get photoshop to work at all. I just use GIMP instead, works fine. Although I have some friends who say they've got some older versions to work perfect... CS6? I don't know how old that is though, I'm used to GIMP now and unlikely to relearn photoshop because I'm not a professional and that shit is expensive.
    As for "etc. etc. etc." I can't comment on my experience with those because your example was a bit too vague.

    I see though what you mean is Native support whereas I just pointed out that all those things run under wine (very well). Most people don't want to spend the extra ten minutes it takes to get something running under wine. Really, they shouldn't have to, but alas that's how it is right now. Slowly though things are changing. Misconceptions are slowly being pushed aside and Linux is slowly catching up. Gaming in my opinion is not going to be the last straw, the examples you gave are. That said if you look around the internet you'll find a lot of people in a lot of places have started considering Linux since the advent of Win8. Gaming stands to have a pretty big personal impact for a lot of peoples OS choice. Who knows what the market will look like after that. It's not a the most critical market but because it's such a personal one that a lot of tech savvy people can connect with it's not easy to overlook either.
  • CabooseCaboose title = name(self, handle) Join Date: 2003-02-15 Member: 13597Members, Constellation
    Also, adding to Steam on Linux is the Steam Box. Once a platform standardized for gaming on GNU Linux is available to the masses, then the games will follow. As it stands, ALL (3D accelerated) games on every platform (GNU Linux, OS X, BSD, Android, iOS,) not controlled by MS (Xbox, Windows) are already written with some version of OpenGL or OpenGL ES.

    Steam on desktop GNU Linux alone will probably not kill M$'s monopoly on PC gaming by itself, but the Steam Box has the potential to shift the market towards adoption of Linux for gaming specific devices (like Steam Box or the Android Linux powered OUYA).

    I mention the OUYA because the newest versions of the Linux kernel are compatable with both GNU and Android Linux, and there are currently ways to run Android games on desktop Linux.
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