Also like someone else said, it's lag compensation, I HATE it when onos get me and I appear to be miles away in a JP, but there's only so much you can do with the internet as it is.
I know about lag compensation, but what I'm talking about is different. Just because there are problems with hit reg does not automatically mean there's lag comp issues involved. My ping is rarely higher than 50-60 in any given match, and my FPS hovers around 110-120.
Only like 2 people refuted or agreed with my points. The rest randomly spammed, "DISAGREE!" like some rallying cry for a witch hunt. Your cute little icons have no meaning or bring any value to the discussion whatsoever, so "DISAGREE!" away.
I put over 250 hours in this game. I love this game, and I'll keep playing it. I know it's a small team and a small company, and I wish them the best of luck with their future projects.
Having said that, tho, of course there's going to be criticism involved with a product. I could have mentioned Sentries or the fact how Marine Commanders STILL don't get alerted when a power node is being attacked, but that, as well, has been discussed ad nauseum.
Of course I exaggerate when I say I browse Reddit while waiting to reload. My point is that reloading is too slow in relation to how fast you can be chomped/swiped and/or stomped on. To me it's a problem that a Skulk can bite me 3-5 times in the time it takes me to reload. Yes, I use the Magnum too, but what about when you run out of ammo on the Magnum?
Hang on, hang on dude, if people reacted like it was a witch hunt, well, here's a question: "Is it the message given or the message recieved that is most important"
Saying "COD has better hitreg" is a bold statement when UWE are alot more open with their code(s) than we will ever get to see of the encrypted to fkery Frostbite code, we (UWE fan bois) can argue our points on a technically confident scale, hit reg has been well understood since Valve were so open about CS:S, if you want to convinvce others your statements had better be convincing.
Personally, lag and poor xbox360 specs hurt COD as much as LUA hurts NS2.
I have 250+ hours apperently on steam. I loved the 'live for the chomp' marine comeback game where 'SexyVoice' was professing his love to 'Rusty' (names changed for confidentiality). Or the on ON3 where the 'the gf of elite player people don't realise is a female and diss for having a 14 year old teenagers voice' ONOSED in the middle of a fire fight in the hive on (er, docking, edit) requiring some dashful gorging skills. Games like those are why you 'love' this game I think, it is the same for me, I won't find it in COD or BF for all the (personally, marginally small gains) mass personel hit reg work done on those games.
PS: Second edit, sorry about my keyboard skills, I will stop editing and just leave this spam in web space. Okay I gave in and did a 3rd read.
Strofix, I disagree. There are a lot of indie companies realeasing great games nowadays. And there are a lot of good Free2Play titles out there. Path of Exile, Dota2 anyone?
What you ideally want is an indie game, with all its innovation and experimentation, built on a triple A engine. That's what the modding era was about, and it was great, but its gone now.
One thing that isn't mentioned here, but has been mentioned before. The aliens move a lot faster than players in other games, making this issue a bit more obvious, while the underlying lag compensation is basically the same
One thing that isn't mentioned here, but has been mentioned before. The aliens move a lot faster than players in other games, making this issue a bit more obvious, while the underlying lag compensation is basically the same
Tribes.
Tribes is ironically a game which claims its so skilful because of how fast everything is, yet 99% of the guns are either extreme rapid fire, or extreme AOE weapons. Hit detection basically never features.
So sort of like the weapon marines use 75% of the time
Ye, except marines fire in close combat, and good ones have accuracies around 50% and above. I would be surprised if anyone breached 15% with most of the guns in tribes.
Look the problem is this. A skulk runs towards you. On your screen he is one meter away, the right time for you to make an evasive manouver. On the skulks screen, he is already biting your not moving ass. So in order to effectivly dodge him, you would have to evade him well before he is in range, only for you to see him follow your trace like an idiot (because on his screen you have been standing there for a second longer).
This is what makes the fights so unreal and what I meant with movement being important in fights. In other games, where both opponents have hitscan weapons this is much less of an issue since you have to be prepared to be hit at all times, therefore you move unpredictable all the time.
Ive always been able to evade skulks by jumping, and like I said before, I play with 150ms, wouldnt he see me standing there and be biting me if the above statement was true?
I know about lag compensation, but what I'm talking about is different. Just because there are problems with hit reg does not automatically mean there's lag comp issues involved. My ping is rarely higher than 50-60 in any given match, and my FPS hovers around 110-120.
Only like 2 people refuted or agreed with my points. The rest randomly spammed, "DISAGREE!" like some rallying cry for a witch hunt. Your cute little icons have no meaning or bring any value to the discussion whatsoever, so "DISAGREE!" away.
I put over 250 hours in this game. I love this game, and I'll keep playing it. I know it's a small team and a small company, and I wish them the best of luck with their future projects.
Having said that, tho, of course there's going to be criticism involved with a product. I could have mentioned Sentries or the fact how Marine Commanders STILL don't get alerted when a power node is being attacked, but that, as well, has been discussed ad nauseum.
Of course I exaggerate when I say I browse Reddit while waiting to reload. My point is that reloading is too slow in relation to how fast you can be chomped/swiped and/or stomped on. To me it's a problem that a Skulk can bite me 3-5 times in the time it takes me to reload. Yes, I use the Magnum too, but what about when you run out of ammo on the Magnum?
Literally the very first thing you said in this thread with its awful troll title was complaining about lag compensation. Your only mention of hitreg was a vague comment at the end which is much more likely to just be a result of you not being able to aim.
These are unfortunately typically mutually exclusive in development. The faster something becomes, the less accessible and more complicated it becomes.
In my honest opinion, I think Charlie was looking back at the halcyon period of gaming, when the best games around were all made by guys in their basement, simply modding the half life engine. Its an admirable thing to want to bring back, but I think that those times are gone forever. Gaming has since been corrupted by the mainstream, and nobody will be putting the kind of time and effort into making high quality games for everyone to play for free.
One thing that isn't mentioned here, but has been mentioned before. The aliens move a lot faster than players in other games, making this issue a bit more obvious, while the underlying lag compensation is basically the same
Tribes.
Tribes is ironically a game which claims its so skilful because of how fast everything is, yet 99% of the guns are either extreme rapid fire, or extreme AOE weapons. Hit detection basically never features.
Jesus Christ. This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Have you even played Tribes?
Ive always been able to evade skulks by jumping, and like I said before, I play with 150ms, wouldnt he see me standing there and be biting me if the above statement was true?
If you doubt me, please tell me your understanding of lagcompensation then. I'm afraid you don't even know what it does.
Lets not forget that COD is a multimillion dollar game and NS2 is an indie game.
Also, lets not forget CoD had hyears to improve the game, did anyone play the first call of duty? I did.
Less crying more putting things into perspective, time sovles everything, weve seen from UWE that they take things seriously, last hotfix anyone? yeah, interrupting sleep to fix a problem ona game, not many devs do that nowdays do they?
Also, alt tab while reloading and browsing reddit? you sir, are ridiculous, come back with a valid argument and we may, just MAY give a crap about what you have to say, until then, toodles.
It doesn't take a multi-billion dollar corporation to produce good netcode.
UWE is fantastic at trying to resolve problems quickly. I will never stop being critical however, of their choice to program an engine in LUA. Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed a team that size produced an engine of this quality on the budget they had. I do think, however, they would have been better off investing that time in money in working off an existing engine like Unreal or Source.
This is a nitpick, but the engine itself isn't in LUA; the game code is written in LUA and processed by the engine (which is, I believe, compiled C++). Think of it kind of like a virtual machine.
You are right about that, yet i do not see the purpose in the LUA, at all. I'm not a programmer or something, by any stretch, but I would think that one of the things you'd want to do is keep things as simple as possible, and as efficient as possible. I don't see how having one language interpret another when you could have just used the one language. I use VMs constantly in and off work/school, and while I see the usefulness of it, it's never quite the same as far as performance. I just don't see the logic behind the design choices made as far as engine and performance.
The reason why any game uses a scripting language (Unreal, Crysis, WoW, etc. etc.) is because scripting languages are generally simpler to use and less crash-prone than C++. This does come at the cost of performance, so it's a trade off you need to decide on. It's like asking, why aren't web pages written in C++ as opposed to JavaScript? Surely C++ would be faster - and it would be. But there are other considerations, such as development time, likelihood of mistakes causing crashes, etc. etc.
It is certainly arguable whether or not LUA is the right choice, but it's not an easy, obvious argument to partake in.
Ive always been able to evade skulks by jumping, and like I said before, I play with 150ms, wouldnt he see me standing there and be biting me if the above statement was true?
If you doubt me, please tell me your understanding of lagcompensation then. I'm afraid you don't even know what it does.
I am not doubting, I said I never noticed it. Why so defensive? Now that I think back, I may actually jump a bit before he reaches me, so I may be compensating for that lag by doing so. id have to record and see.
No offense/defense but I explained this in my longer post on the first page of this thread where I quote the documentation of who is afaik the inventor of lagcompensation. He, someone who is obviously in favor of lagcompensation, acknowledges that lagcompensation has some problems, particularly in games where movement is imporatant. What I wrote was just a theoretical example of how it works in NS2.
But hey, I may be completly wrong and lagcompensation in NS2 works totally different, though I doubt that.
I dont know, I mentioned before that is in my nature to play games with Lag. I played WoW for many years competitively (at least realm wide, never on a hardcore guild ladder) and there i learned to anticipate everything (mainly casting) so I guess that translated here and I anticipate movement, so I have not noticed it at all. I have died around corners, but that happens to everyone and does not bother me.
One thing that does make me cringe is the 15 feet away onos hits, freaking ridiculous. that is because of interp, right?
Exactly, when you see the onos and try to gtfo, he is already headbutting you on the onos player's screen. Onos with charge are pretty much as fast as skulks afaik.
Lets not forget that COD is a multimillion dollar game and NS2 is an indie game.
Also, lets not forget CoD had hyears to improve the game, did anyone play the first call of duty? I did.
Less crying more putting things into perspective, time sovles everything, weve seen from UWE that they take things seriously, last hotfix anyone? yeah, interrupting sleep to fix a problem ona game, not many devs do that nowdays do they?
Also, alt tab while reloading and browsing reddit? you sir, are ridiculous, come back with a valid argument and we may, just MAY give a crap about what you have to say, until then, toodles.
It doesn't take a multi-billion dollar corporation to produce good netcode.
UWE is fantastic at trying to resolve problems quickly. I will never stop being critical however, of their choice to program an engine in LUA. Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed a team that size produced an engine of this quality on the budget they had. I do think, however, they would have been better off investing that time in money in working off an existing engine like Unreal or Source.
This is a nitpick, but the engine itself isn't in LUA; the game code is written in LUA and processed by the engine (which is, I believe, compiled C++). Think of it kind of like a virtual machine.
You are right about that, yet i do not see the purpose in the LUA, at all. I'm not a programmer or something, by any stretch, but I would think that one of the things you'd want to do is keep things as simple as possible, and as efficient as possible. I don't see how having one language interpret another when you could have just used the one language. I use VMs constantly in and off work/school, and while I see the usefulness of it, it's never quite the same as far as performance. I just don't see the logic behind the design choices made as far as engine and performance.
The reason why any game uses a scripting language (Unreal, Crysis, WoW, etc. etc.) is because scripting languages are generally simpler to use and less crash-prone than C++. This does come at the cost of performance, so it's a trade off you need to decide on. It's like asking, why aren't web pages written in C++ as opposed to JavaScript? Surely C++ would be faster - and it would be. But there are other considerations, such as development time, likelihood of mistakes causing crashes, etc. etc.
It is certainly arguable whether or not LUA is the right choice, but it's not an easy, obvious argument to partake in.
Like I said- I'm not going to pretend to know anything about programming, and I'm sure the choices were made for very good reasons, I just wish that performance was a larger concern than it is. Not to say it's not a concern, I know it is...
But when you have a 20 ping, with no loss, on a server getting a fantastic tickrate, and you are getting spotty hit-reg, it's immersion breaking, frustrating, and down-right a boner-kill. Thanks for the response, I just hope that you guys are seeing the gravity of poor performance.
Lets not forget that COD is a multimillion dollar game and NS2 is an indie game.
Also, lets not forget CoD had hyears to improve the game, did anyone play the first call of duty? I did.
Less crying more putting things into perspective, time sovles everything, weve seen from UWE that they take things seriously, last hotfix anyone? yeah, interrupting sleep to fix a problem ona game, not many devs do that nowdays do they?
Also, alt tab while reloading and browsing reddit? you sir, are ridiculous, come back with a valid argument and we may, just MAY give a crap about what you have to say, until then, toodles.
It doesn't take a multi-billion dollar corporation to produce good netcode.
UWE is fantastic at trying to resolve problems quickly. I will never stop being critical however, of their choice to program an engine in LUA. Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed a team that size produced an engine of this quality on the budget they had. I do think, however, they would have been better off investing that time in money in working off an existing engine like Unreal or Source.
This is a nitpick, but the engine itself isn't in LUA; the game code is written in LUA and processed by the engine (which is, I believe, compiled C++). Think of it kind of like a virtual machine.
You are right about that, yet i do not see the purpose in the LUA, at all. I'm not a programmer or something, by any stretch, but I would think that one of the things you'd want to do is keep things as simple as possible, and as efficient as possible. I don't see how having one language interpret another when you could have just used the one language. I use VMs constantly in and off work/school, and while I see the usefulness of it, it's never quite the same as far as performance. I just don't see the logic behind the design choices made as far as engine and performance.
The reason why any game uses a scripting language (Unreal, Crysis, WoW, etc. etc.) is because scripting languages are generally simpler to use and less crash-prone than C++. This does come at the cost of performance, so it's a trade off you need to decide on. It's like asking, why aren't web pages written in C++ as opposed to JavaScript? Surely C++ would be faster - and it would be. But there are other considerations, such as development time, likelihood of mistakes causing crashes, etc. etc.
It is certainly arguable whether or not LUA is the right choice, but it's not an easy, obvious argument to partake in.
Like I said- I'm not going to pretend to know anything about programming, and I'm sure the choices were made for very good reasons, I just wish that performance was a larger concern than it is. Not to say it's not a concern, I know it is...
But when you have a 20 ping, with no loss, on a server getting a fantastic tickrate, and you are getting spotty hit-reg, it's immersion breaking, frustrating, and down-right a boner-kill. Thanks for the response, I just hope that you guys are seeing the gravity of poor performance.
I am a Software Engineer, programming in C++ and C#. In my opinion the choice to go LUA was because of the modding. LUA as a scripting language is most prominently used because it allows easier modding of an environment. The performance lost when going with a scripting language it totally dependent on how much it needs to run, for example if you are running 50 active mods every one of those mods have to be loaded into memory thus decreasing the performance(This is in excess of what the vanilla project needs). LUA is easier to exception handle though and that is why its the better choice when you include mods.
i think the problem is the lag-compensation, not the hit-detection...how many times have you run safely around the corner as a skulk from a marine just to die seconds later?
there is moments i am like 4 meters around the wall and still die from that last bullet hitting me. The question is: does ns2 have no compensation or to much? something needs to be done...
Lets not forget that COD is a multimillion dollar game and NS2 is an indie game.
Also, lets not forget CoD had hyears to improve the game, did anyone play the first call of duty? I did.
Less crying more putting things into perspective, time sovles everything, weve seen from UWE that they take things seriously, last hotfix anyone? yeah, interrupting sleep to fix a problem ona game, not many devs do that nowdays do they?
Also, alt tab while reloading and browsing reddit? you sir, are ridiculous, come back with a valid argument and we may, just MAY give a crap about what you have to say, until then, toodles.
It doesn't take a multi-billion dollar corporation to produce good netcode.
UWE is fantastic at trying to resolve problems quickly. I will never stop being critical however, of their choice to program an engine in LUA. Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed a team that size produced an engine of this quality on the budget they had. I do think, however, they would have been better off investing that time in money in working off an existing engine like Unreal or Source.
This is a nitpick, but the engine itself isn't in LUA; the game code is written in LUA and processed by the engine (which is, I believe, compiled C++). Think of it kind of like a virtual machine.
You are right about that, yet i do not see the purpose in the LUA, at all. I'm not a programmer or something, by any stretch, but I would think that one of the things you'd want to do is keep things as simple as possible, and as efficient as possible. I don't see how having one language interpret another when you could have just used the one language. I use VMs constantly in and off work/school, and while I see the usefulness of it, it's never quite the same as far as performance. I just don't see the logic behind the design choices made as far as engine and performance.
The reason why any game uses a scripting language (Unreal, Crysis, WoW, etc. etc.) is because scripting languages are generally simpler to use and less crash-prone than C++. This does come at the cost of performance, so it's a trade off you need to decide on. It's like asking, why aren't web pages written in C++ as opposed to JavaScript? Surely C++ would be faster - and it would be. But there are other considerations, such as development time, likelihood of mistakes causing crashes, etc. etc.
It is certainly arguable whether or not LUA is the right choice, but it's not an easy, obvious argument to partake in.
Like I said- I'm not going to pretend to know anything about programming, and I'm sure the choices were made for very good reasons, I just wish that performance was a larger concern than it is. Not to say it's not a concern, I know it is...
But when you have a 20 ping, with no loss, on a server getting a fantastic tickrate, and you are getting spotty hit-reg, it's immersion breaking, frustrating, and down-right a boner-kill. Thanks for the response, I just hope that you guys are seeing the gravity of poor performance.
I am a Software Engineer, programming in C++ and C#. In my opinion the choice to go LUA was because of the modding. LUA as a scripting language is most prominently used because it allows easier modding of an environment. The performance lost when going with a scripting language it totally dependent on how much it needs to run, for example if you are running 50 active mods every one of those mods have to be loaded into memory thus decreasing the performance(This is in excess of what the vanilla project needs). LUA is easier to exception handle though and that is why its the better choice when you include mods.
Thanks for the insight, I had no idea. Wonder why modding was such a huge thing for them, then. hmmm
Comments
Also like someone else said, it's lag compensation, I HATE it when onos get me and I appear to be miles away in a JP, but there's only so much you can do with the internet as it is.
I know about lag compensation, but what I'm talking about is different. Just because there are problems with hit reg does not automatically mean there's lag comp issues involved. My ping is rarely higher than 50-60 in any given match, and my FPS hovers around 110-120.
Only like 2 people refuted or agreed with my points. The rest randomly spammed, "DISAGREE!" like some rallying cry for a witch hunt. Your cute little icons have no meaning or bring any value to the discussion whatsoever, so "DISAGREE!" away.
I put over 250 hours in this game. I love this game, and I'll keep playing it. I know it's a small team and a small company, and I wish them the best of luck with their future projects.
Having said that, tho, of course there's going to be criticism involved with a product. I could have mentioned Sentries or the fact how Marine Commanders STILL don't get alerted when a power node is being attacked, but that, as well, has been discussed ad nauseum.
Of course I exaggerate when I say I browse Reddit while waiting to reload. My point is that reloading is too slow in relation to how fast you can be chomped/swiped and/or stomped on. To me it's a problem that a Skulk can bite me 3-5 times in the time it takes me to reload. Yes, I use the Magnum too, but what about when you run out of ammo on the Magnum?
Saying "COD has better hitreg" is a bold statement when UWE are alot more open with their code(s) than we will ever get to see of the encrypted to fkery Frostbite code, we (UWE fan bois) can argue our points on a technically confident scale, hit reg has been well understood since Valve were so open about CS:S, if you want to convinvce others your statements had better be convincing.
Personally, lag and poor xbox360 specs hurt COD as much as LUA hurts NS2.
I have 250+ hours apperently on steam. I loved the 'live for the chomp' marine comeback game where 'SexyVoice' was professing his love to 'Rusty' (names changed for confidentiality). Or the on ON3 where the 'the gf of elite player people don't realise is a female and diss for having a 14 year old teenagers voice' ONOSED in the middle of a fire fight in the hive on (er, docking, edit) requiring some dashful gorging skills. Games like those are why you 'love' this game I think, it is the same for me, I won't find it in COD or BF for all the (personally, marginally small gains) mass personel hit reg work done on those games.
PS: Second edit, sorry about my keyboard skills, I will stop editing and just leave this spam in web space. Okay I gave in and did a 3rd read.
What you ideally want is an indie game, with all its innovation and experimentation, built on a triple A engine. That's what the modding era was about, and it was great, but its gone now.
Tribes.
Tribes is ironically a game which claims its so skilful because of how fast everything is, yet 99% of the guns are either extreme rapid fire, or extreme AOE weapons. Hit detection basically never features.
So sort of like the weapon marines use 75% of the time
Ye, except marines fire in close combat, and good ones have accuracies around 50% and above. I would be surprised if anyone breached 15% with most of the guns in tribes.
This is what makes the fights so unreal and what I meant with movement being important in fights. In other games, where both opponents have hitscan weapons this is much less of an issue since you have to be prepared to be hit at all times, therefore you move unpredictable all the time.
Literally the very first thing you said in this thread with its awful troll title was complaining about lag compensation. Your only mention of hitreg was a vague comment at the end which is much more likely to just be a result of you not being able to aim.
Jesus Christ. This is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Have you even played Tribes?
The reason why any game uses a scripting language (Unreal, Crysis, WoW, etc. etc.) is because scripting languages are generally simpler to use and less crash-prone than C++. This does come at the cost of performance, so it's a trade off you need to decide on. It's like asking, why aren't web pages written in C++ as opposed to JavaScript? Surely C++ would be faster - and it would be. But there are other considerations, such as development time, likelihood of mistakes causing crashes, etc. etc.
It is certainly arguable whether or not LUA is the right choice, but it's not an easy, obvious argument to partake in.
I am not doubting, I said I never noticed it. Why so defensive? Now that I think back, I may actually jump a bit before he reaches me, so I may be compensating for that lag by doing so. id have to record and see.
But hey, I may be completly wrong and lagcompensation in NS2 works totally different, though I doubt that.
One thing that does make me cringe is the 15 feet away onos hits, freaking ridiculous. that is because of interp, right?
:O
ITS A PARADOX
Like I said- I'm not going to pretend to know anything about programming, and I'm sure the choices were made for very good reasons, I just wish that performance was a larger concern than it is. Not to say it's not a concern, I know it is...
But when you have a 20 ping, with no loss, on a server getting a fantastic tickrate, and you are getting spotty hit-reg, it's immersion breaking, frustrating, and down-right a boner-kill. Thanks for the response, I just hope that you guys are seeing the gravity of poor performance.
I am a Software Engineer, programming in C++ and C#. In my opinion the choice to go LUA was because of the modding. LUA as a scripting language is most prominently used because it allows easier modding of an environment. The performance lost when going with a scripting language it totally dependent on how much it needs to run, for example if you are running 50 active mods every one of those mods have to be loaded into memory thus decreasing the performance(This is in excess of what the vanilla project needs). LUA is easier to exception handle though and that is why its the better choice when you include mods.
there is moments i am like 4 meters around the wall and still die from that last bullet hitting me. The question is: does ns2 have no compensation or to much? something needs to be done...
Thanks for the insight, I had no idea. Wonder why modding was such a huge thing for them, then. hmmm