God forbid marines should be allowed to siege from a room away. Does UWE honestly expect marines to roll ARCs INTO the hive room and hold? It's hard enough sieging hives on most maps as it is, even if it's from another room.
To me, being able to siege Locker from Bar is a big no-no. Bar is in a very awkward position and being able to siege Locker from there looks more like an oversight than something planned. Kinda like Central on Mineshaft, even if the latter is much, much worse. There is that vent, mind you, but it only takes a couple of good shots to prevent anyone from getting out, and bilebomb Gorges are completely ineffective in Bar if Marines hold it well, unless they have a Gorge in that very vent. Back Alley should be the southern siege spot, not Bar, and you don't need to get ARCs into the Hive to shoot it down from there, nor from Ball Court. I think Ball Court is way better designed in that regard since it is directly adjacent to Locker, and I find it harder to hold as a Marine than Bar once the ARCs are there.
How on earth is it not immediately adjacent? Back Alley is a hallway with a name, Bar is a room with a directly connected vent. For aliens, it's immediately adjacent. You're basically trying to argue that Ball Court isn't adjacent to Locker because there is a hallway between the two, or same with Stability Monitoring and Generator. Ridiculous.
Again, I'll repeat it. If Aliens are too bad to hold the easily accessible, nearest resource tower and nearest point of attack, they deserve to lose that Hive. No different than if Marines can maintain control on Stability Monitoring, Aliens should lose Generator Hive. There is no difference as each are easily accessed by ARCs, resource tower points, next to a hive and are overall strategically crucial.
I know it's an old version of the map. Sue me.
There is so much fail right there. Can you see it? Wipe that smear of bullshit from your eyes and maybe you'll spot it. Maybe.
The only reason I think that bar should be changed is that aliens have a difficult time to defend from a siege from bar. The long los on back alley and the claustrophobic vent is too difficult to assault with either bile bomb or onos.
Bar is a f##king useless location, not the most important.
Dux is making this specifically clear by intentionally removing the ARC option from there. So it is just another room, with a RT, but if you want to do something other than cap it, you have to continue to somewhere else.
So often Marines hold a Phase Gate in Bar, fail to advance in Back Alley, meanwhile Aliens can take over the rest of the map. Removing the siege option clearly says "You can get that RT, but don't expect anything more. Do something useful instead!".
Now for the *REAL* most important room of the map. It is called Courtyard.
If there is any EVIL siege position, it is that you can ARC Locker Room right from maintenance entrance, 15 seconds away from where Marines spawn. THAT is what you should be doing instead of Bar siege.
Not to mention map control and access to Stability and all the Alien non-base RTs.
When the Courtyard RT was removed, I was worried Courtyard's importance was intentionally diminished. Turns out I was wrong: by making all the side routes less useful (East Wing is longer and it takes more time to walk to Departures, now the ARC spot in Bar gets removed and the west route gets potentially longer) it is clearer than ever that Marines are supposed to go to Courtyard.
Let's hope they do it. I'm still waiting for the complaints that Aliens have no chance of winning, which would mean Marines have finally learnt to go for Omars 5 step plan.
I'm done arguing with you. You don't even know what adjacent means.
Laughable. Weird how you want to nitpick over my use of the word "adjacent" to be incorrect, when it's clearly used situationally, applying loosely to rooms with a more defined purpose. Would you prefer "connected to", "diagonal from", "in the immediate vicinity of"? You pick what you want, I'm still right. Bar is directly connected to Locker Rooms and is one of the quickest locations for Aliens to access immediately.
Bar is a f##king useless location, not the most important. Dux is making this specifically clear by intentionally removing the ARC option from there. So it is just another room, with a RT, but if you want to do something other than cap it, you have to continue to somewhere else.
You're contradicting yourself. If Bar is a useless location, why is the ARC point being removed to make it just another room? It's either important and being made useless, or useless and pointlessly being nerfed.
now the ARC spot in Bar gets removed and the west route gets potentially longer) it is clearer than ever that Marines are supposed to go to Courtyard.
Let's hope they do it. I'm still waiting for the complaints that Aliens have no chance of winning, which would mean Marines have finally learnt to go for Omars 5 step plan.
Are you advocating that the maps and their strategies become more linear? Marines should go where it is tactically viable for them, that (I agree 100%) is through Courtyard to Main/StabMon... but that doesn't mean choices should be limited to them. If Aliens are Locker Rooms, it's equally viable to completely rush Bar with your pressure team, setup an ARC station / Armory / Mines and have your cappers pressure Generator after capturing Departures.
I understand you want people to make the right choice and prioritize the more valuable locations, trust me it's frustrating when Marine teams lose to poor strategic choices.... but removing Bar ARC point just limits the amount of viable strategies. If Marines can't ARC from Bar anymore, why both ever going there? It's far from Marine start, Alien's have immediate access to it, the access to Alien Hive is through a long vulnerable hallway.
Maybe Dux has a big designed planned, just like East Wing. Perhaps the entire side will be revamped to where Bar is a middle ground "point of contention" and the good Siege point is located further up.
I Just can't help but feel that removing the Bar ARC spot is to placate inexperienced, ignorant or otherwise coddled players who spent their time complaining about being able to ARC Locker while arguing ARCs shouldn't shoot through walls, they should have to have line of sight, shouldn't be mobile, are OP, are unfair., etc... There were tons of threads and comments, after the game was released, of people whining about all the things I just listed and the Bar spot was the one of the more common places people experienced that.
You're contradicting yourself. If Bar is a useless location, why is the ARC point being removed to make it just another room? It's either important and being made useless, or useless and pointlessly being nerfed.
The second thing (useless and nerfed): Bar is (relatively) useless in the big strategic view, but the ARC spot contributed to people thinking it is valuable (along with the RT and being the natural place to go after Cafe), so Marines went there and wasted their time in the Back Alley of doom. In order to clarify that Bar itself is not so special, the ARC spot (which probably wasn't planned to be there in the first place) was removed.
I agree with the rest you say. The map shouldn't come down to one good way to play.
I think the following should be done, and it seems this is exactly what dux is going to do already:
Make Back Alley wider and easier to play, including a proper ARC spot instead of the one lost in Bar. This is pretty much what was done with East Wing.
It appears narrow hallways are just very hard to overcome in an attack, like Back Alley or Deposit<->Sorting on Mineshaft.
This way, Bar->Back Alley can be a proper attack alternative instead of the hallway of Marine failures it is now:-)
Make the west route to Locker slightly longer, by making the Cafeteria route or Back Alley longer (again, just like it was done with East Wing, it happens naturally).
Maybe shorten Central Access, so that Cafeteria and Terminal are about equal in distance to Courtyard and both can be Marine starts. Also the route Terminal->Bar via Central Access (which is shorter already!) gets prioritized by this (currently, not much happens in Central Access). People shouldn't naturally go from Cafe to Bar, but to Courtyard as well (and vice versa, Courtyard to Bar as well).
To balance the map, at a later point when Marines go to Courtyard often enough, Stability (and maybe Maintenance) probably need to get a little easier to defend for Aliens.
cant we all just get along? I think a slight adjustment to docking would make it a more manageable point. Making it a little less 3d would make a big difference.
Comments
There is so much fail right there. Can you see it? Wipe that smear of bullshit from your eyes and maybe you'll spot it. Maybe.
The only reason I think that bar should be changed is that aliens have a difficult time to defend from a siege from bar. The long los on back alley and the claustrophobic vent is too difficult to assault with either bile bomb or onos.
@PaLaGi Doesn't really matter. It's getting moved anyway.
Dux is making this specifically clear by intentionally removing the ARC option from there. So it is just another room, with a RT, but if you want to do something other than cap it, you have to continue to somewhere else.
So often Marines hold a Phase Gate in Bar, fail to advance in Back Alley, meanwhile Aliens can take over the rest of the map. Removing the siege option clearly says "You can get that RT, but don't expect anything more. Do something useful instead!".
Now for the *REAL* most important room of the map. It is called Courtyard.
If there is any EVIL siege position, it is that you can ARC Locker Room right from maintenance entrance, 15 seconds away from where Marines spawn. THAT is what you should be doing instead of Bar siege.
Not to mention map control and access to Stability and all the Alien non-base RTs.
When the Courtyard RT was removed, I was worried Courtyard's importance was intentionally diminished. Turns out I was wrong: by making all the side routes less useful (East Wing is longer and it takes more time to walk to Departures, now the ARC spot in Bar gets removed and the west route gets potentially longer) it is clearer than ever that Marines are supposed to go to Courtyard.
Let's hope they do it. I'm still waiting for the complaints that Aliens have no chance of winning, which would mean Marines have finally learnt to go for Omars 5 step plan.
Laughable. Weird how you want to nitpick over my use of the word "adjacent" to be incorrect, when it's clearly used situationally, applying loosely to rooms with a more defined purpose. Would you prefer "connected to", "diagonal from", "in the immediate vicinity of"? You pick what you want, I'm still right. Bar is directly connected to Locker Rooms and is one of the quickest locations for Aliens to access immediately.
You're contradicting yourself. If Bar is a useless location, why is the ARC point being removed to make it just another room? It's either important and being made useless, or useless and pointlessly being nerfed.
Are you advocating that the maps and their strategies become more linear? Marines should go where it is tactically viable for them, that (I agree 100%) is through Courtyard to Main/StabMon... but that doesn't mean choices should be limited to them. If Aliens are Locker Rooms, it's equally viable to completely rush Bar with your pressure team, setup an ARC station / Armory / Mines and have your cappers pressure Generator after capturing Departures.
I understand you want people to make the right choice and prioritize the more valuable locations, trust me it's frustrating when Marine teams lose to poor strategic choices.... but removing Bar ARC point just limits the amount of viable strategies. If Marines can't ARC from Bar anymore, why both ever going there? It's far from Marine start, Alien's have immediate access to it, the access to Alien Hive is through a long vulnerable hallway.
Maybe Dux has a big designed planned, just like East Wing. Perhaps the entire side will be revamped to where Bar is a middle ground "point of contention" and the good Siege point is located further up.
I Just can't help but feel that removing the Bar ARC spot is to placate inexperienced, ignorant or otherwise coddled players who spent their time complaining about being able to ARC Locker while arguing ARCs shouldn't shoot through walls, they should have to have line of sight, shouldn't be mobile, are OP, are unfair., etc... There were tons of threads and comments, after the game was released, of people whining about all the things I just listed and the Bar spot was the one of the more common places people experienced that.
I agree with the rest you say. The map shouldn't come down to one good way to play.
I think the following should be done, and it seems this is exactly what dux is going to do already:
It appears narrow hallways are just very hard to overcome in an attack, like Back Alley or Deposit<->Sorting on Mineshaft.
This way, Bar->Back Alley can be a proper attack alternative instead of the hallway of Marine failures it is now:-)