It's time we start talking about the real culprit behind the horrendeous balance
Xarius
Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
That's right, if you want to really understand what or who's to blame for the majority of the balance issues in NS 2 today, look no further than the alien economic model.
No, I'm not going to claim that imbalance can't or doesn't also occur as the result of factors such as faction accessibility, complexity, higher teamwork requirements and whatnot. I do however believe that these imbalances while significant, particularly in pub games, alone can't account for the persistent, unbudging, alien dominance that has been in place since the very first days of Beta. (Yes there were builds in which there was little to no alien dominance but that was never the result of a well-thought approach to tackling a systemic imbalance, rather these builds contained some poorly thought-out balance changes which were almost always reverted one patch later.)
First, let's look at the situation in NS 1: Aliens only had personal resources and as a result some players had to 'sacrifice' their p.res for the team's sake. 2 - 3 Players usually had to invest in things like hives, harvesters and upgrades. That's 2 - 3 players less that are going to play a higher lifeform later on in the game and ultimately also 2 - 3 players less that are on the field as a skulk biting RTs. In addition to this, NS 1 had a res for kill mechanic which rewarded better players by allowing them to play a lifeform ahead of the 'normal curve'. Aside from the notorious 'scaling issue' (The more players in a game the more the alien side had an advantage as those people sacrificing p.res for the team become a smaller part of the overall team presence) NS 1 was, by the end of its development, regarded as a fairly balanced game at the right team sizes (generally 6vs6 to 8vs8).
Why is this important you ask? Because ultimately we need to understand that a lot of things in place in NS 2 today were already there in NS 1. The marine faction, barring some changes to its lategame tech, was largely left unchanged, as were the majority of the alien lifeforms and abilities we have in NS 2 today. The largest place that took place was, you guessed it, the dramatic overhaul of the alien economic model. Anyone with any experience in RTS gaming will tell you that for an RTS to be properly balanced, the economic realities underlying each faction's design need to be identical. With NS 2 however, UWE opted to only go half way in converting the alien faction from a p.res based economy to a t.res one.
In doing so, they took a game that was precariously balanced on less aliens, and certainly less higher lifeforms, fighting a larger amount of marines and turned it into one where equal numbers of aliens would actively be on the front-line fighting marines and evolve into higher lifeforms later on. This while the marine side received practically no changes to cope with this changed reality: marines in NS 2 are still equipped for and balanced around fighting NS 1 style aliens when said aliens no longer exist.
Further more, the awkward half-conversion of the alien economy into a t.res one, with lifeforms unlike marine higher tech still being tied to solely p.res results in aliens having a significant TIMING advantage in regards to when their 'late-game' (or the biggest part thereof) approaches. The current marine gameplay feels a lot like a race against time, where it's: 1. essential to destroy as many alien harvesters as possible from the get go to delay the inevitable higher lifeforms from popping up and 2. absolutely vital they hold on to at least 4 - 5 RTs to have enough upgrades and tech to counteract those higher lifeforms when they do appear. Aliens on the other hand can be pretty content with just holding on to 2 hives and 3 harvesters for the biggest part of the game and because of p.res lifeforms they will still more or less 'break-even' with the marine late-game and have an equal if not larger chance of winning from that point onward. (As the result of more higher lifeforms being fielded overall against a faction that isn't designed to deal with as many) This also means that even if an alien economy is pressured and a commander has to constantly replace RTs, aliens are still able to get higher tech. (Making them much more economically resilient as a faction compared to marines).
In a nutshell, I think that pretty much sums up my train of thought on the balance issue. I DO have some ideas on how to address this issue, some more radical than others, if there's a demand for it I'll gladly write them out but for now I don't see much point in doing so. I'd rather the discussion focus on the actual issue first, as surely there's going to be some people out there that disagree.
Thanks
Edit: I summarised some of the main points brought up in this thread in regards to balance
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s4zzrh027jfQ__Xe61tQC3U3Y94O4oSs-G079_J85xY/edit
No, I'm not going to claim that imbalance can't or doesn't also occur as the result of factors such as faction accessibility, complexity, higher teamwork requirements and whatnot. I do however believe that these imbalances while significant, particularly in pub games, alone can't account for the persistent, unbudging, alien dominance that has been in place since the very first days of Beta. (Yes there were builds in which there was little to no alien dominance but that was never the result of a well-thought approach to tackling a systemic imbalance, rather these builds contained some poorly thought-out balance changes which were almost always reverted one patch later.)
First, let's look at the situation in NS 1: Aliens only had personal resources and as a result some players had to 'sacrifice' their p.res for the team's sake. 2 - 3 Players usually had to invest in things like hives, harvesters and upgrades. That's 2 - 3 players less that are going to play a higher lifeform later on in the game and ultimately also 2 - 3 players less that are on the field as a skulk biting RTs. In addition to this, NS 1 had a res for kill mechanic which rewarded better players by allowing them to play a lifeform ahead of the 'normal curve'. Aside from the notorious 'scaling issue' (The more players in a game the more the alien side had an advantage as those people sacrificing p.res for the team become a smaller part of the overall team presence) NS 1 was, by the end of its development, regarded as a fairly balanced game at the right team sizes (generally 6vs6 to 8vs8).
Why is this important you ask? Because ultimately we need to understand that a lot of things in place in NS 2 today were already there in NS 1. The marine faction, barring some changes to its lategame tech, was largely left unchanged, as were the majority of the alien lifeforms and abilities we have in NS 2 today. The largest place that took place was, you guessed it, the dramatic overhaul of the alien economic model. Anyone with any experience in RTS gaming will tell you that for an RTS to be properly balanced, the economic realities underlying each faction's design need to be identical. With NS 2 however, UWE opted to only go half way in converting the alien faction from a p.res based economy to a t.res one.
In doing so, they took a game that was precariously balanced on less aliens, and certainly less higher lifeforms, fighting a larger amount of marines and turned it into one where equal numbers of aliens would actively be on the front-line fighting marines and evolve into higher lifeforms later on. This while the marine side received practically no changes to cope with this changed reality: marines in NS 2 are still equipped for and balanced around fighting NS 1 style aliens when said aliens no longer exist.
Further more, the awkward half-conversion of the alien economy into a t.res one, with lifeforms unlike marine higher tech still being tied to solely p.res results in aliens having a significant TIMING advantage in regards to when their 'late-game' (or the biggest part thereof) approaches. The current marine gameplay feels a lot like a race against time, where it's: 1. essential to destroy as many alien harvesters as possible from the get go to delay the inevitable higher lifeforms from popping up and 2. absolutely vital they hold on to at least 4 - 5 RTs to have enough upgrades and tech to counteract those higher lifeforms when they do appear. Aliens on the other hand can be pretty content with just holding on to 2 hives and 3 harvesters for the biggest part of the game and because of p.res lifeforms they will still more or less 'break-even' with the marine late-game and have an equal if not larger chance of winning from that point onward. (As the result of more higher lifeforms being fielded overall against a faction that isn't designed to deal with as many) This also means that even if an alien economy is pressured and a commander has to constantly replace RTs, aliens are still able to get higher tech. (Making them much more economically resilient as a faction compared to marines).
In a nutshell, I think that pretty much sums up my train of thought on the balance issue. I DO have some ideas on how to address this issue, some more radical than others, if there's a demand for it I'll gladly write them out but for now I don't see much point in doing so. I'd rather the discussion focus on the actual issue first, as surely there's going to be some people out there that disagree.
Thanks
Edit: I summarised some of the main points brought up in this thread in regards to balance
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s4zzrh027jfQ__Xe61tQC3U3Y94O4oSs-G079_J85xY/edit
Comments
Unless we force Aliens to dump pres on something or stagger the Alien resource gain with something like RFK, we still going to see 5+ Fades and/or 3+ Onos pop up at the same time in pubs. With the Khamannder in place there really isn't a way to force people to dump pres though.
Another factor that comes into play, imho, is that in NS1 you had electrfied res nodes, and in NS2 you do not. In NS1 this delayed aliens from taking out your extractors, which can be a huge hit to the marine economy.
Now marines are expected to:
- Build base buildings
- Build power nodes
- Secure & build resource nodes
- Secure a second tech point
- Respond to attacks on power nodes & structures
- Gain territory
- Attack alien harvesters
All at the same time in the first 5 minutes. Lose two or three early game extractors and you can pretty much kiss the game goodbye.The aliens are expected to:
- Kill marines & marine stuff
That's it.The alien commander has given the alien team free reign to constantly assault the marines, keeping them on their heels. While the marines try and secure a tech point, you're killing their extractors. If marines try and push to your end to attack harvesters, then you rush their base and take out the power node.
As I was saying in another thread, the game has been flipped on its head since in NS1 the alien team actually needed MORE teamwork than the marine team. You had to coordinate not only who would save for a hive, but what upgrade chamber would be dropped, who would drop what harvester where, what hallway would you put in OCs to choke marines from advancing, etc.
While I like that marines need more teamwork than aliens now, I think the pendulum has swung a bit too far.
All res from RTs go to the commander(TRES). Each kill (possibly including buildings) gives RFK and goes to the PRES pool of the player. -> Commanders have to drop equipment/lifeforms. Players can buy them themselfs if they kill enough stuff.
I agree with the OP, CommunistWithAGun and SixtyWattMan. The Alien economic model is broken and makes them too powerful in the early game. I like the idea of an Alien commander, but in the end I think the Alien economic model in NS1 was pretty much spot on. With Babblers and Gorge tunnels to sink P.Res on, maybe the next patch will make the economic model a bit more interesting.
Instead of tres being used by the khamm, he would use pres from the entire team. So is he drops an extractor, it would deduct the cost of that extractor as equally as possible from all the aliens on the team. This would require the khamm to be more particular in how he spent the res, and it would means aliens would need more resource nodes in order to be competitive. It's supposed to be an asymmetric game right?
This model would make alien defence of their structures that much more important, since a lost structure means lost PERSONAL resources, which means a delay in evolutions. There may need to be tweaks, like removing the resource costs for cysts for example. (or only deducting the cost for a cyst if it is killed and needs to be replaced) However, it would certainly make for an interesting game.
I'd have to see how it played though.
I really dont know why they changed the Aliens economy the way they did.
I know this is not supposed to be NS1 but be real: In the end this is NS1 with the only difference being the alien commander, Flamethrower and Exos not being able to use PG.
Why port nearly everything 1:1 and then change the very fundamental of the whole Alien gameplay? It's quite obvious this has to fail...
Well, since the economic model gives rise to several bigger issues I very much doubt it would be possible to come up with one solution that addresses all of the issues. That is unless you were to suggest we go back to an alien no-commander p.res economy, which just isn't going to happen.
For example, this is no doubt going to be controversial but they could easily implement a t.res tech prerequisite for fade and onos (say at 1 hive for fade and 2 hives for onos) This way t.res has to be invested before players can actually acquire higher lifeforms that dramatically influence the game. Just like with marines, the alien comm would then have to make a trade-off between expanding the economy on the one hand and teching to 'late-game' on the other. (Right now they only have to tech to further increasing the power of those late-game units, not to the late-game lifeforms themselves)
The above solution wouldn't address the tech explosion issue though, for that you'd actually need to find a way to diversify the p.res income and/or provide more sinks that aren't higher lifeforms.
Another drastic but no doubt sensible solution would be to just get rid of the entire p.res scheme and have everything arranged through commander drops again like NS 1 marines. (This gives more strategic control to the commander at the expense of personal upgrade freedom) Do we really need this personal purchase freedom if it is ultimately undermining the balance of the mod? Or alternatively, tie p.res into t.res and have the commander convert it when he feels he wants the players purchasing lifeforms or weapons. I.e players would still be able to choose what they play with but the commander decides the timing and that timing would actually be based on the t.res the commander has to spare on it. (a system like this could then also replace weapon drops, basically it'd be a 'p.res drop')
Anyway, I'm sure there's many things one could think of if he'd really put his mind to it and I sincerely hope UWE does the same.
Have tres drops connected to amounts of hives. You can drop any egg with any amount of hives, however it costs 3/2/1.66/1x res. (Numbers can be changed). So on one hive, it costs 150 res to drop a fade egg. Two hives, 100 res to drop a fade egg. etc.
And finally, do something about 3x crag 1x shift 1x deadlocks. To do this, either severely nerf whips (to make GLs viable and a realistic alternative to arccing), nerf the building healing on crags (Something like buildings are only affected by one crag, but players are affected by 3x crags).
Poof. I just balanced your game without changing very much of it
Actually what I'm suggesting is that the cause of alien imbalance is:
- Too many high lifeforms arriving at the same time, as well as too many lifeforms being thrown at the marines over the entire duration of a game.
- Aliens having a significant tech (timing) advantage due to lifeforms being p.res when all marine p.res investment require prior t.res unlocking.
Also, the result of no gorges being required to build anything like in NS 1 is that there's more skulks fighting those marines, which also skews the early marine vs alien engagements! It's all closely related, really.
Your two lists are nearly-identical, with the exception of 'build power nodes'. It could just as easily be reversed into 'Kill Aliens & Alien stuff', with the entire Marine list applying to the Kharaa as well.
Both teams need to take and hold ground, along with securing it. Though I would rather see the Gorges take a more necessary role as far as building is concerned; significantly longer self-building times, and reduction with healspray would make them more of a full-time necessity again, rather than as a support-only role.
This. Savant swings and misses once again.
But saying that the game is unbalanced because you're basing that assumption off of a handful of servers where the ratio is something like 42%/58% is just ridiculous. You can't look at such a small bit of data and take that as the standard. I haven't experienced aliens just dominating every game regardless of whether I play on 16 or 24 player servers. I can see how on the competitive level aliens may be somewhat stronger since it's 6v6, but 12v12 and even 8v8 you have plenty of people available. More often than not I see teams lose purely because they're bad or the comm is failing to really direct well. Marine comm can drop ammo, health, and scans, he also controls the beacons and is responsible for monitoring all the areas while he's watching the fights play out. Alien comm not so much. So as a result marine comms have to be a lot more skilled and quick with what they're doing. Really I'd say balance is nearly right and with the content patch coming in around mid-February, it's probably best not to rock the boat too much until all that is said and done.
Lately I feel that at least on my favourite Server the onos explosion is nearly non-existant anymore because marine skill increased alot over the last weeks. This and the impovements with hitreg force the aliens to use their pres before they got 75 or straight up loose against aggressive marines.
To make spending pres more attractive and at the same time useful, I find the idea of some kind of "combat skulk" quite good. The idea was postet here some time before and evolves around a more bulky skulklike lifeform. Maybe even a 5 res or even only 2 res upgrade for skulks to get some more HP or AP.
I think this kind of "microtransaction" would really elp the alien ressource system, because at the moment the either have to spend big or not at all which makes the whole thing kind of one dimensional compared to the marines who can choose between 5 and 75 res investments.
This thread starts on the premise that there's a serious imbalance in the game and that is a premise the majority of this community tends to agree with. If you don't, good for you, but I won't waste any more time debating it, it's been done too many times over elsewhere.
You seem to have entirely misunderstood my opening post. Not once did I say it's easier for aliens to get res. Instead I pointed out that aliens require no t.res to unlock lategame lifeforms which gives them a significant timing advantage over marines who need both t.res as well as p.res. Yes, an onos requires upgrades from two hives to be truly effective , but that's peanuts in regards to the t.res that has to be spent on getting to jps and exos. (Not to mention the aliens have very little other things to spend t.res on if not on those upgrades and harvesters)
Or like I stated in a comment:
Does NS2 need a different alien economic model? I guess one could argue that, but not based off of there being more pres than ns1. The comparison simply doesn't work.
The bigger issue from competitive play is that it is so damn difficult to kill a hive with crags on it with guns that you essentially have to siege it unless you are just dominating the aliens. And the aliens will always get crags on hives by 2nd hive unless they get dominated early. This creates a situation where you must have arcs on marines in a competitive game vs an even team once 2 hives are up. But bilebomb decimates Arcs so arcs only work if you can keep gorges away from them, something that is incredibly difficult unless marines again are dominating or have jps/shotguns. But by the time you have Arcs and JP Shotguns the aliens have onos and marines don't have a good way to deal with onos and so if the game has actually gotten to this point the marines lose. Shotguns are useless unless you are close, and jps entire purpose is to maintain distance. You don't want to be rushing up to an onos.
For competitive play at least, simply halving the rate Crags heal buildings would make a MASSIVE balance difference, because right now marines simply can't shoot down hives if the aliens have res to drop crags. Additionally, marines need a better way to deal with onos, but one that is incredibly expensive so a marine team that holds 6 nodes 25 minutes and has been winning but unable to finish a hive is rewarded properly for map domination, but so that onos are still silly strong game enders against marines who have not been dominating the map. (don't get me started on exo's, you can't use them 6v6).
In regards to crags being too strong and exos being garbage, I agree with both but I do believe these are really just (large) imbalances on the side.
I agree with this.
Getting hammered with 2-4 Onii at once is hell on a marine team.
I find the biggest issue with p.Res is that there's always a portion of your team, regardless of faction, that will always save all their p.Res for Onos/Exo, no matter what is going on in the game.
i like the idea of NO MORE PRES AS ALIEN, and dumping all res to commander, then making him produce eggs on demand, and adjust costs accordingly.
Bacilllus actually made the point in another thread that the wonky economy of NS1, ironically, may actually have helped to balance the game. As player-counts rose, the effects on economy offset improved operational efficiency and vice versa. I wouldn't stake my life on this being true but the more I think about it, the more I think it's possible.
Electrification was incredibly rare and highlighting it as a balance factor is another demonstration of how misinformed your foundations are. With all due respect, it's unwise to comment on things you have such little experience with.
I was wondering how the game would play with no p.Res for either side, but with increased t.Res.(More frequent ticks).
Soft RPS mechancis were supposed to be the solution, similar to how TF2 deals with cross class cooperation, i.e. Roles that complement one another.
Recent changes to GL and Shotgun (player dmg lowered for an "anti structure" weapon, and width increased for the "strong from up close, but weak from afar" weapon.) demonstrate the proper implementation paths to accomplish this. Its something the flamethrower has always suffered from : a proper complementary role. Its in it's best shape ever, but could still stand some love.
Aliens were supposed to work in much the same way, where "Mass tech/lifeform" or "all in" strategies (a now very common occurrence in NS2 alien resouce model) would mean a huge risk to the team. This is why the lerk and fade are too weak, because its not one or two fades per team anymore, but there can now be an entire team of fades. An example of implementing soft RPS mechanics here would be: fades are less viable for structure killing, so they still need skulks and other life forms. OR, Gorge healing an Onos.
But this, specifically, is where they went halfway, imo:
Its still NS1 aliens, but with very subtle RPS roles, instead of the needed very obvious roles.
The lerk is a great example. Would you say its the "harassing" class? I dont feel like it is anymore, i feel like its a viable combat lifeform that has a high skill ceiling and high requirement to play effectively, but is rarely ever a harassing class now, its more like the "force multiplier". Some might say spores are the cause, others may say its the bite, and still others may say its because flap requires energy which remove's it's ability to dodge and spike simultaneously for longer "harassing" durations like it used to do.
Regardless, it's role is awkward at best, and just like the rest of the team - they are not properly complementing one enough, and therefore you end up with fades that are too weak because the scenario of having a whole team of them is a likely one, instead of a suicidal one.
TLDR: Proper soft RPS mechanics and roles are needed for the new resource model to work.
Aliens don't have to build ANYTHING. Identical list? Please... Marines are responsible for building all of their base structures AND all of their extractors AND all of the power nodes they build near. Not to mention they do this while under constant alien attack. What do aliens build? Nothing. The khamm does it all. Base structures, harvesters and cysts (akin to marine power nodes in a roundabout way) are all things that aliens have no need to build - and they rarely need to defend them since marines rarely reach their hive. How many early game hive attacks do you see versus how many marine start attacks? Hmmm?
The khamm's job is easy since he faces no resistance. If marines make it to the alien side of the map then either the aliens are not doing their job, or they are about to press the "I win" power node button in marine spawn.
Marines lose more often because they usually fail to juggle all of their responsibilities.
The only alien responsibility is to 'kill'. There is no comparison to the marines. That's one of the foundational asymmetries in this game.