ARCs themselves are fine, it's the maps that need edited. There are too many situations where you can basically let aliens have the map, and then ARC hives to take them for the marine team before new abilities are learned.
<!--quoteo(post=2067840:date=Jan 28 2013, 01:04 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 28 2013, 01:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How long would activation take? It would have to be quite a length process to prevent a single marine from activating tens of ARCs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hard to answer without testing but ~10secs maybe. My point is that any length of time is better than none at all really. It also means we don't have to nerf arcs in such a way that they lose their sense of power and satisfaction.
<!--quoteo(post=2067819:date=Jan 28 2013, 02:31 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 28 2013, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You say they cant just waltz across a map...well that is pretty much what they can do on most of the maps, by being able to build them away from the front line unless aliens are going into marine spawn and checking they will have no prior warning (except maybe a beacon..but they can have many causes...not all are arcs, though all are bad).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said, scouting. The alien team is bad if they don't know what the marines are up to. Like in every RTS, you should always check the opponent's base every now and then just to see how far they are in their tech. Look for ARCs, Proto lab, Advanced armory etc. All it takes is one skulk to take a single leap over the marine base, which he can probably do even without dying, and all their plans unfold. Don't blame ARCs for bad alien play.
<!--quoteo(post=2067819:date=Jan 28 2013, 02:31 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 28 2013, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You think that biling down 10-15 arcs is easy? Especially if a marine team is actively defending with JP's GL's and FT's?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like other people have stated, if the marines can afford all that, they deserve to have the advantage. It's like saying that Whips are OP because the alien khammander can spam 500 of them and crash the server. The problem lies in the opposing team, not the mechanics.
<!--quoteo(post=2067819:date=Jan 28 2013, 02:31 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 28 2013, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is more so if the arcs are actually no in tine room next to what is being arced (but 2-3 rooms over...ie central-deopsit).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This I do agree with, but it's obviously a map design problem not a game mechanic one. That's why I usually refer exclusively to the only three maps making any sense competitive-wise: tram, summit and veil. None of these maps have any ridiculously overpowered siege spots.
And I still think you underestimate bile bomb. There's no cap on damage on it, so even 20 ARCs will go down just as fast as a single one. Sure it doesn't have a 100% chance of success, but why should it have? If it did, it would be bile bomb that's OP.
<!--quoteo(post=2067714:date=Jan 28 2013, 12:44 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 28 2013, 12:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067714"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I won't say ARCs are overpowered, but they are in a strange place at the moment.
ARCs obviously need to be able to fire through walls. In fact, the very reason that siege cannons in NS1 could fire through walls was because it was possible for aliens to simply plaster an area with structures, so thickly that no matter what you sent it, it would die. This has not changed in NS2.
The problem I have is their mobility, and the speed with which they destroy things. In NS1 (I know this isn't NS1) a hive siege was a long, expensive process. A siege could last 10 minutes, with constant fighting throughout. A truly epic occasion. In addition, once the siege was over, the siege cannons became little more than reminders of what had come before. They no longer had a practical use, and were either recycled, or just left there.
Now that siege cannons can move, a lot of that sacrifice and tradeoff has been removed. Even worse, their relative damage has been ramped up so much that you basically just roll 4 ARCs up, ping three times, and roll away 20 seconds later. It is such a boring mechanic, yet such a central one to nearly every marine victory.
The problem is especially apparent in ARC Alley, AKA Stability on Docking. A group of ARCs can roll from one location, 10 feet over to another, and siege out 2 hives in less than a minute in the most boring way imaginable.
Also, I find it pretty retarded that an Onos shakes the very foundations of the space station it is running through, yet a train of 10+ ARCs moves in complete silence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2067882:date=Jan 28 2013, 04:17 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 28 2013, 04:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067882"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What if ARCs were more vulnerable either while in transit or when in siege mode?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are. In siege mode they lack all their armor, which is about one third of their overall health.
<!--quoteo(post=2067892:date=Jan 28 2013, 09:30 AM:name=Therius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Therius @ Jan 28 2013, 09:30 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067892"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They are. In siege mode they lack all their armor, which is about one third of their overall health.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, okay.
So I guess maybe they need to fix the maps that allow for multiple hive sieges from a single room and I can't really find fault with ARCs. They must shoot through walls or they are pretty useless.
Does their pathing still allow them to climb Clog walls like a Mountain Goat?
I think ARCs are just fine. I'll admit that I preferred the dynamic of the siege from NS1, but there's nothing imbalanced about ARCs as they are in NS2 (exceptions: bar->locker rooms, etc). The idea of nerfing ARCs seems sort of rash to me, they are one of the only things that allow marines to bounce-back late game, otherwise an alien team harassing extractors can just wait out the marines and churn out onos after onos. The aliens can hit the power and knock out a whole marine base before taking it down with relative safety, the ARCs are the marine parallel.
You can hear arcs firing a mile away, and they have to be right next to your hive room to do it, and there's usually a big posse of marines running around near them and shooting guns in the air and yelling 'hoo dawgy' and wearing stetson hats.
If you can't find the ARCs, you're doing something wrong.
There is someplaces where arcs are op. Like bar in docking and central in mineshaft (2 res node place and u can siege hive from there, oh my, really?). Marines really need only 2 arcs to take alien fully upgraded base down. Marines can easily turtle those places. There should be no map, where u can defend res nodes and arc hives down from there. Too easy for rines, defend nodes and turtle attack hive with arcs.
Allthought i think bile is op too. It's mobile arc for aliens.
Usually if u can't take arc's down, its lack of communication. And if marines can't protect arcs, it's lack of communication.
For the record, the only reason Bar is OP is because of the way ARCs stack on top of each other when they're going to a rally point straight from the robotics factory. If that was fixed and they properly collided with one another, you'd never be able to get more than one ARC to fire from bar, forcing you into back alley. Also, there's a vent going straight to bar. Clog up to it, have some skulks run a distraction, bile every ARC easily.
Never found bar ARC'ing to be a problem.
I would, however, prefer Siege Turrets back over ARCs. Let sentries be the new ARCs, but please, no more mobile siege turrets.
Simple solution would be to create special brushes for mappers that prevent arcs from shooting through them. Those brushes can be placed inside walls, they can be even one sided only for more precise control. The idea would be to place such brushes in obviously ridiculous siege locations (you know what I mean).
<!--quoteo(post=2067973:date=Jan 28 2013, 12:19 PM:name=xen32)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xen32 @ Jan 28 2013, 12:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067973"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Simple solution would be to create special brushes for mappers that prevent arcs from shooting through them. Those brushes can be placed inside walls, they can be even one sided only for more precise control. The idea would be to place such brushes in obviously ridiculous siege locations (you know what I mean).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would lead to some confusing game play. Although it is the harder answer, editing the map is the only answer.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
<!--quoteo(post=2067548:date=Jan 27 2013, 11:46 PM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jan 27 2013, 11:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067548"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still want the old ARC fire back. The new rapid-fire isn't nearly, NEARLY as cool as the previous:
Needs more oomph.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes yes.. Even as a kharaa I miss my big kaboom. The feel on marines was almost.. yes yes.. almost... here it goes... And on kharaa it was .. omg nooo, hurry.. it wont hold.
QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 28 2013, 04:31 AM) »You think that biling down 10-15 arcs is easy? Especially if a marine team is actively defending with JP's GL's and FT's?
Its not, it can take out hundreds of res in investment (hives, upgrades, whips, harvesters etc) with in locations such as central (mineshaft) being examples of how this mobility mechanic plays havoc.
So the Commander has fielded like 400 tres worth of equipment (including the tech) and the Marines are equipped with hundreds of pres worth of equipment (total), and you're complaining that that's hard to beat?
QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 28 2013, 04:31 AM) »You think that biling down 10-15 arcs is easy? Especially if a marine team is actively defending with JP's GL's and FT's?
Its not, it can take out hundreds of res in investment (hives, upgrades, whips, harvesters etc) with in locations such as central (mineshaft) being examples of how this mobility mechanic plays havoc.
So the Commander has fielded like 400 tres worth of equipment (including the tech) and the Marines are equipped with hundreds of pres worth of equipment (total), and you're complaining that that's hard to beat?
This. 100x this..
Whether the comm spent 400 or 40 Res the issue is still the same, the mobile Arcs coupled with the wall shooting (and bad map designs) mean arcs are OP'd.
In NS1 sieges had the downside of being fixed location, needing to be built and a small base set up (PG at the least).
That was to esnure you could build all the required buildings and hold off the aliens.
Now you cna build them in the safetly of marine spawn, then when you have a large number beacon you team and get them to walk them from hive to hive.
If arcs are to be left mobile then something needs to be done to stop the wall shooting (as central or stab monitoring make this stupidly easy to take out 2 hive (and any chambers nbear by) in less than a minute).
So either some walls can or cant be shot through (far from inutitive), we change how they work (ie LOS) or we continue to have aliens reliant on mappers to ensure that places like central on mineshaft dont exist.
Of the three the most logical is the LOS requirement (as this also explains why they move).
Arcs being able to shoot through walls has got to be top 5 most annoying things in the game. As aliens you don't know where they are, and just feels like the other team is exploiting a messed up game mechanic.
I understand we don't need to nerf anything on the marine side but something has to be done.
Couple options (All include that they can no longer shoot through walls):
1) Allow them to deploy WAY faster, or even shoot on the move. To balance them maybe allow them to move alot slower and/or be able to be killed easier, this way the marines really have to baby sit them.
2) keep the speed and armor level of the arcs, but make a marine have to aim the arc and fire it. So you don't have to remodel one that a marine can fit it, have them aim it VIA remote next to it. This way you move it near a base and he can take control of it. Fellow marines will have to cover him cause all you have to do it kill this poor ######. This option it should be deployable very fast, maybe even allow the marine to move it via remote (not drive it all the way there or anything just to move it up a bit to take a shot)
3) and this one isn't much different than what we have now. Probably the easiest fix. Instead of shooting through walls the arcs simply bounce the rounds off walls onto the target. The reason for this is so the aliens can atleast tell where the hell there getting hit from, and it won't feel like there getting shot from no where. (can include option 2 on for this one)
If you don't like my idea's post your own. If you think its fine the way it is please state why. Thank you
The ability for marines to siege a hive/structures by shooting through walls has been around since NS1. It's simply part of the gameplay mechanics. You'll just have to accept it.
By the way, it's not very hard to spot an arc train outside your hive. If you don't know where they are firing from, you're not trying hard enough. There are only so many areas around a hive marines could be shooting from. Also, it's hardly an exploit. More like a high res cost gamble. Arc rushes are only succesful if marines manage to defend them long enough (duh). Against a decent alien team who uses bile bomb properly, that can be murder, since arcs have less armor when deployed.
Watch these ( http://nl.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/361460397 ) competitive games, where arcs are used. Especially the second game which starts around 0:19:30 is pretty epic with alot of arc siege attempts which lead to some exciting gameplay.
arcs are fine, i'd like to see damage progression changed, slightly. some kind of ramp up would be nice, so that aliens had a bit more time to react, shouldn't matter in the long run if the marines really deserve to arc from that location... also, the upgrades might survive a bit longer then.
Arcs are fine. They keep the game interesting/fluid. If you play more, i am sure you will come to see the reasoning behind their existance. There is just no other anti-structure weapon marines have. Grenades are countered by whips
and Exo trains can be dismantled.
QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 28 2013, 04:31 AM) »You think that biling down 10-15 arcs is easy? Especially if a marine team is actively defending with JP's GL's and FT's?
Its not, it can take out hundreds of res in investment (hives, upgrades, whips, harvesters etc) with in locations such as central (mineshaft) being examples of how this mobility mechanic plays havoc.
So the Commander has fielded like 400 tres worth of equipment (including the tech) and the Marines are equipped with hundreds of pres worth of equipment (total), and you're complaining that that's hard to beat?
This. 100x this..
Whether the comm spent 400 or 40 Res the issue is still the same, the mobile Arcs coupled with the wall shooting (and bad map designs) mean arcs are OP'd.
In NS1 sieges had the downside of being fixed location, needing to be built and a small base set up (PG at the least).
That was to esnure you could build all the required buildings and hold off the aliens.
Now you cna build them in the safetly of marine spawn, then when you have a large number beacon you team and get them to walk them from hive to hive.
If arcs are to be left mobile then something needs to be done to stop the wall shooting (as central or stab monitoring make this stupidly easy to take out 2 hive (and any chambers nbear by) in less than a minute).
So either some walls can or cant be shot through (far from inutitive), we change how they work (ie LOS) or we continue to have aliens reliant on mappers to ensure that places like central on mineshaft dont exist.
Of the three the most logical is the LOS requirement (as this also explains why they move).
Fine as is. if you want a direct line of sight on ARCs the entire games maps will all need to be redesigned, because honestly, what use is a tank that has to fire at its target 30 feet away because LOL CANT SEE IT
ARCs are fine as is, I honestly thought the OP was trolling when reading this thread. ARCs move SLOW, lose a third of their health when deployed, fire slowly, and are a large res investment. If a marine team invested 200 res in a push, it should be able to be difficult to stop. Regardless of it being in the form of ARCs or a few exos.
If you're losing because the enemy managed to get 10+ arcs outside of your base, sorry but you deserve to lose this one, you got outplayed pretty hard if they had that kind of time and resources. Just because arcs killed you doesn't mean they weren't a well executed strategy, obviously it was much better than yours. Learn to counter it, everything can be countered.
The problem is especially apparent in ARC Alley, AKA Stability on Docking. A group of ARCs can roll from one location, 10 feet over to another, and siege out 2 hives in less than a minute in the most boring way imaginable.
Also, I find it pretty retarded that an Onos shakes the very foundations of the space station it is running through, yet a train of 10+ ARCs moves in complete silence.
But arcs have to be really good. They are the only viable anti structure / anti turtle thing the marines have. Exos are garbage for so many reasons, GLs dont work and everything else lacks the DPS and ammo count to deal with any late game crag farms.
They need to be able to bypass LoS partly because of map design. Nowhere is far from a corner. Also they'd be completely undefendable from bile and would be almost impossible to use cost effectively if they had to be in the room.
Imagine what whips with the projectile upgrade would do to them and you have another anti struture weapon hard countered by a structure.
+1
Marine objective : Get the ARC into position and cover them
Aliens objective : Don't let the ARCs get into position.
Comments
You know what else is hard to counter? being horribly outclassed so the other side can afford to make 200res in arcs.
Hard to answer without testing but ~10secs maybe. My point is that any length of time is better than none at all really. It also means we don't have to nerf arcs in such a way that they lose their sense of power and satisfaction.
As I said, scouting. The alien team is bad if they don't know what the marines are up to. Like in every RTS, you should always check the opponent's base every now and then just to see how far they are in their tech. Look for ARCs, Proto lab, Advanced armory etc. All it takes is one skulk to take a single leap over the marine base, which he can probably do even without dying, and all their plans unfold. Don't blame ARCs for bad alien play.
<!--quoteo(post=2067819:date=Jan 28 2013, 02:31 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 28 2013, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You think that biling down 10-15 arcs is easy? Especially if a marine team is actively defending with JP's GL's and FT's?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like other people have stated, if the marines can afford all that, they deserve to have the advantage. It's like saying that Whips are OP because the alien khammander can spam 500 of them and crash the server. The problem lies in the opposing team, not the mechanics.
<!--quoteo(post=2067819:date=Jan 28 2013, 02:31 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 28 2013, 02:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067819"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is more so if the arcs are actually no in tine room next to what is being arced (but 2-3 rooms over...ie central-deopsit).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This I do agree with, but it's obviously a map design problem not a game mechanic one. That's why I usually refer exclusively to the only three maps making any sense competitive-wise: tram, summit and veil. None of these maps have any ridiculously overpowered siege spots.
And I still think you underestimate bile bomb. There's no cap on damage on it, so even 20 ARCs will go down just as fast as a single one. Sure it doesn't have a 100% chance of success, but why should it have? If it did, it would be bile bomb that's OP.
ARCs obviously need to be able to fire through walls. In fact, the very reason that siege cannons in NS1 could fire through walls was because it was possible for aliens to simply plaster an area with structures, so thickly that no matter what you sent it, it would die. This has not changed in NS2.
The problem I have is their mobility, and the speed with which they destroy things. In NS1 (I know this isn't NS1) a hive siege was a long, expensive process. A siege could last 10 minutes, with constant fighting throughout. A truly epic occasion. In addition, once the siege was over, the siege cannons became little more than reminders of what had come before. They no longer had a practical use, and were either recycled, or just left there.
Now that siege cannons can move, a lot of that sacrifice and tradeoff has been removed. Even worse, their relative damage has been ramped up so much that you basically just roll 4 ARCs up, ping three times, and roll away 20 seconds later. It is such a boring mechanic, yet such a central one to nearly every marine victory.
The problem is especially apparent in ARC Alley, AKA Stability on Docking. A group of ARCs can roll from one location, 10 feet over to another, and siege out 2 hives in less than a minute in the most boring way imaginable.
Also, I find it pretty retarded that an Onos shakes the very foundations of the space station it is running through, yet a train of 10+ ARCs moves in complete silence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with everything you said.
They are. In siege mode they lack all their armor, which is about one third of their overall health.
Heh, okay.
So I guess maybe they need to fix the maps that allow for multiple hive sieges from a single room and I can't really find fault with ARCs. They must shoot through walls or they are pretty useless.
Does their pathing still allow them to climb Clog walls like a Mountain Goat?
If you can't find the ARCs, you're doing something wrong.
Allthought i think bile is op too. It's mobile arc for aliens.
Usually if u can't take arc's down, its lack of communication. And if marines can't protect arcs, it's lack of communication.
Never found bar ARC'ing to be a problem.
I would, however, prefer Siege Turrets back over ARCs. Let sentries be the new ARCs, but please, no more mobile siege turrets.
That would lead to some confusing game play. Although it is the harder answer, editing the map is the only answer.
.....vsfvsfvsfvsfvsfvsfvsfvsfvsf...vsfiuKBBBLAAAAASSSTTTTT!!!!
Now it's like...
vsfvsfPUM! vsfvsfPUM! vsfvsfPUM! ...*yawn*
Needs more oomph.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes yes.. Even as a kharaa I miss my big kaboom.
The feel on marines was almost.. yes yes.. almost... here it goes...
And on kharaa it was .. omg nooo, hurry.. it wont hold.
And it was awsome.
Also arcs are fine.
This. 100x this..
Whether the comm spent 400 or 40 Res the issue is still the same, the mobile Arcs coupled with the wall shooting (and bad map designs) mean arcs are OP'd.
In NS1 sieges had the downside of being fixed location, needing to be built and a small base set up (PG at the least).
That was to esnure you could build all the required buildings and hold off the aliens.
Now you cna build them in the safetly of marine spawn, then when you have a large number beacon you team and get them to walk them from hive to hive.
If arcs are to be left mobile then something needs to be done to stop the wall shooting (as central or stab monitoring make this stupidly easy to take out 2 hive (and any chambers nbear by) in less than a minute).
So either some walls can or cant be shot through (far from inutitive), we change how they work (ie LOS) or we continue to have aliens reliant on mappers to ensure that places like central on mineshaft dont exist.
Of the three the most logical is the LOS requirement (as this also explains why they move).
The ability for marines to siege a hive/structures by shooting through walls has been around since NS1. It's simply part of the gameplay mechanics. You'll just have to accept it.
By the way, it's not very hard to spot an arc train outside your hive. If you don't know where they are firing from, you're not trying hard enough. There are only so many areas around a hive marines could be shooting from. Also, it's hardly an exploit. More like a high res cost gamble. Arc rushes are only succesful if marines manage to defend them long enough (duh). Against a decent alien team who uses bile bomb properly, that can be murder, since arcs have less armor when deployed.
Watch these ( http://nl.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/361460397 ) competitive games, where arcs are used. Especially the second game which starts around 0:19:30 is pretty epic with alot of arc siege attempts which lead to some exciting gameplay.
exos... are... garbage?
and Exo trains can be dismantled.
Fine as is. if you want a direct line of sight on ARCs the entire games maps will all need to be redesigned, because honestly, what use is a tank that has to fire at its target 30 feet away because LOL CANT SEE IT
ARCs are fine as is, I honestly thought the OP was trolling when reading this thread. ARCs move SLOW, lose a third of their health when deployed, fire slowly, and are a large res investment. If a marine team invested 200 res in a push, it should be able to be difficult to stop. Regardless of it being in the form of ARCs or a few exos.
Mapping issue. Same as central in mineshaft.
+1
Marine objective : Get the ARC into position and cover them
Aliens objective : Don't let the ARCs get into position.
I don't see the problem.