Arcs = not cool
hanky
Join Date: 2011-08-28 Member: 118944Members
Join Date: 2011-08-28 Member: 118944Members
Arcs being able to shoot through walls has got to be top 5 most annoying things in the game. As aliens you don't know where they are, and just feels like the other team is exploiting a messed up game mechanic.
I understand we don't need to nerf anything on the marine side but something has to be done.
Couple options (All include that they can no longer shoot through walls):
1) Allow them to deploy WAY faster, or even shoot on the move. To balance them maybe allow them to move alot slower and/or be able to be killed easier, this way the marines really have to baby sit them.
2) keep the speed and armor level of the arcs, but make a marine have to aim the arc and fire it. So you don't have to remodel one that a marine can fit it, have them aim it VIA remote next to it. This way you move it near a base and he can take control of it. Fellow marines will have to cover him cause all you have to do it kill this poor ######. This option it should be deployable very fast, maybe even allow the marine to move it via remote (not drive it all the way there or anything just to move it up a bit to take a shot)
3) and this one isn't much different than what we have now. Probably the easiest fix. Instead of shooting through walls the arcs simply bounce the rounds off walls onto the target. The reason for this is so the aliens can atleast tell where the hell there getting hit from, and it won't feel like there getting shot from no where. (can include option 2 on for this one)
If you don't like my idea's post your own. If you think its fine the way it is please state why. Thank you :)
I understand we don't need to nerf anything on the marine side but something has to be done.
Couple options (All include that they can no longer shoot through walls):
1) Allow them to deploy WAY faster, or even shoot on the move. To balance them maybe allow them to move alot slower and/or be able to be killed easier, this way the marines really have to baby sit them.
2) keep the speed and armor level of the arcs, but make a marine have to aim the arc and fire it. So you don't have to remodel one that a marine can fit it, have them aim it VIA remote next to it. This way you move it near a base and he can take control of it. Fellow marines will have to cover him cause all you have to do it kill this poor ######. This option it should be deployable very fast, maybe even allow the marine to move it via remote (not drive it all the way there or anything just to move it up a bit to take a shot)
3) and this one isn't much different than what we have now. Probably the easiest fix. Instead of shooting through walls the arcs simply bounce the rounds off walls onto the target. The reason for this is so the aliens can atleast tell where the hell there getting hit from, and it won't feel like there getting shot from no where. (can include option 2 on for this one)
If you don't like my idea's post your own. If you think its fine the way it is please state why. Thank you :)
Comments
Sure it's possible to sneak some Arcs somewhere and start taking stuff out, but the possibilty of that is very remote unless you are playing on say a 6v6 server.... even then.... it's not hard to deduce where the Arcs are at if they aren't spotted before hand.
Maybe not the most convincing argument, but just my two cents.
ARCs are what add strategic depth to the game, without them you would see no evolution of strategys that we have been seeing in the last couple of months and that I hope we will continue to see. They create a need to control areas of the map other then tech points and this is what makes for interesting maps and interesting strategies. Give it a chance and try to understand more fully how the game works.
I understand its difficult to see how shooting through walls is fair, but the alien team is gifted with speed, aoe building damaeg and excellent scouting abilities to deal with this.
But arcs have to be really good. They are the only viable anti structure / anti turtle thing the marines have. Exos are garbage for so many reasons, GLs dont work and everything else lacks the DPS and ammo count to deal with any late game crag farms.
They need to be able to bypass LoS partly because of map design. Nowhere is far from a corner. Also they'd be completely undefendable from bile and would be almost impossible to use cost effectively if they had to be in the room.
Imagine what whips with the projectile upgrade would do to them and you have another anti struture weapon hard countered by a structure.
.....vsfvsfvsfvsfvsfvsfvsfvsfvsf...vsfiuKBBBLAAAAASSSTTTTT!!!!
Now it's like...
vsfvsfPUM! vsfvsfPUM! vsfvsfPUM! ...*yawn*
Needs more oomph.
The handling of ARCs is pretty annoying too: if you have a couple of ARCs deployed and some new undeployed ones move in and you then hit the deploy button while having all of them selected, those who were deployed will start to undeploy and the others will do the opposite. There should be two buttons if you have a mixed selection.
.....vsfvsfvsfvsfvsfvsfvsfvsfvsf...vsfiuKBBBLAAAAASSSTTTTT!!!!
Now it's like...
vsfvsfPUM! vsfvsfPUM! vsfvsfPUM! ...*yawn*
Needs more oomph.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I admit it was much cooler to sit there panicing while you heard the charging sound, because you knew that volley would annihilate so much. But yeah, it did annihilate way too much and made it difficult to use structures before they died.
ARCs are pretty much perfect atm.
Which is probably the point of a siege unit. If aliens could just sit it out, it would be pointless.
My only gripe with ARCs is that there is no limit on the number of ARCs you can build (similar to Whips, but those can be countered easily by killing the infestation if they try to rush a marine base, whereas an ARC train can one-shot an entire alien base and the only potential counter that Ink is, is on a global cooldown and thus can't be used for sufficient protection against the one-time scan that is required for the ARCs to kill everything).
I'd honestly prefer Ink to be a viable counter to scan-based ARCs that can be circumvented by ARCs getting line-of-sight information from marine troops, so if they can see the structure regardless of Ink, the ARC can see it too.
The build time of siege bases actually allowed aliens time to counter, arc trains offer too little time and are easier to defend (as no building is ever required).
I think arcs serve a good purpose and can be tweaked to fix most of the issues (or maps tweaked) as some of the spots you can arc from do not give aliens a realistic chance of stopping as the arcs simply roll in under escort and start firing.
No build times and prolonged holding of an area which often gave aliens enough time to respond before everything got zapped in 10 seconds.
I find it funny that people seem to think aliens can turtle.
I am yet to see a game where aliens can turtle even when they have 2 hives.
A marine team that cant finish an alien team with 1 hive are incompetent.
You have w3 A3, Exo's, JP's, GL's, FT'ers, Arcs, Nano, Med packs against an alien team that has only 1 upgrade, no tier 2 (so no bile bombing gorges, leaping skulks or lerk spores).
If you cant beat aliens on 1 hive you really need to just put this game down and walk away.
Aliens can in no way shape or form be considered as capable as marines at turtling.
In fact I would say aliens cant turtle as it should not take a marine comm long to build arcs and start to siege the hive with arcs.
Marines can sit back in safety and let arcs do all the work and simply defend the arcs, aliens when breaking a turtle must put their high t-Res investment at massive risk by going into a room filled with multiple marines if they hope to end the game (whip rushes aside..as they have their own issues in actually using).
ARCs obviously need to be able to fire through walls. In fact, the very reason that siege cannons in NS1 could fire through walls was because it was possible for aliens to simply plaster an area with structures, so thickly that no matter what you sent it, it would die. This has not changed in NS2.
The problem I have is their mobility, and the speed with which they destroy things. In NS1 (I know this isn't NS1) a hive siege was a long, expensive process. A siege could last 10 minutes, with constant fighting throughout. A truly epic occasion. In addition, once the siege was over, the siege cannons became little more than reminders of what had come before. They no longer had a practical use, and were either recycled, or just left there.
Now that siege cannons can move, a lot of that sacrifice and tradeoff has been removed. Even worse, their relative damage has been ramped up so much that you basically just roll 4 ARCs up, ping three times, and roll away 20 seconds later. It is such a boring mechanic, yet such a central one to nearly every marine victory.
The problem is especially apparent in ARC Alley, AKA Stability on Docking. A group of ARCs can roll from one location, 10 feet over to another, and siege out 2 hives in less than a minute in the most boring way imaginable.
Also, I find it pretty retarded that an Onos shakes the very foundations of the space station it is running through, yet a train of 10+ ARCs moves in complete silence.
The mobility isn't really a problem, if they were stationary, the commander could just sell them after a siege and get almost all of the resources back. More often than not an ARC train gets destroyed on the way to their next location after doing their job at the first, if the alien team has any idea how to counter them (i.e., direct the marines' attention somewhere else and then have a single gorge bile bomb all the slowly rolling ARCs down), and they're just as expensive as they were in NS1 (talking about relative expense, not direct expense here).
They do, however, kill hives off way easier than they did in NS1. I think it's the splash range, since you can't really protect your hive with crags during a siege at all. They all get killed with the first or second volley, even if they were at the very fringe of their healing range. In NS1, sieging could be a very prolonged process, since defence chambers usually survived if placed smartly, and having a few healing gorges along with the chambers usually outhealed 3-4 sieges.
Didn't the turret factory need to be upgraded for sieges to be dropped by it? I can't remember.
Haha, you know crags only stack to 3 right? If you get more than that you're wasting res.
To the op, shooting through walls is the whole POINT of arcs.
The mobility isn't really a problem, if they were stationary, the commander could just sell them after a siege and get almost all of the resources back. More often than not an ARC train gets destroyed on the way to their next location after doing their job at the first, if the alien team has any idea how to counter them (i.e., direct the marines' attention somewhere else and then have a single gorge bile bomb all the slowly rolling ARCs down), and they're just as expensive as they were in NS1 (talking about relative expense, not direct expense here).
They do, however, kill hives off way easier than they did in NS1. I think it's the splash range, since you can't really protect your hive with crags during a siege at all. They all get killed with the first or second volley, even if they were at the very fringe of their healing range. In NS1, sieging could be a very prolonged process, since defence chambers usually survived if placed smartly, and having a few healing gorges along with the chambers usually outhealed 3-4 sieges.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Therios you had to first build each of the sieges, this could not happen instantly. It certainly takes more time to build 4 sieges that it would be deploy 4 (seeing as 4 deplaoying takes as long as 1) and start firing.
Also the requirement to shoot through walls was there in NS1 as the sieges could not move so had to be in a defendable position (which meant outside of the hive), as you dont need to to build arcs...just watch the commander deploy then shoot the wall shooting ability becomes OP'd.
Their lack of mobility meant there was time take to sell, build at each point after you had set up your defenses (normally a PG was required at these locations...not so when the arcs move) and the like.
Now you simply watch the arcs and shoot anything that attacks it, JP's and GL's make this very easy to do.
Arcs have been a balance issue through out the beta, with a range of options put forward.
Some suggestions that where thrown about included marines either transporting the arcs or having to actually get in to fire (thus preventing them from defending).
Arcs do present new challenges...especially as they are not simply the sieges of NS1, their mobility brings into questions why (besides sentimentality) do arcs need to fire through walls.
Commander sends and puts just inside doorway (allows LOS) marines still sit back dropping grenades around the arcs and welding when needed.
Or make them require marines to move (who sacrifice their weapon whilst carrying (returned when dropped)) around the map, making them much more dependant on marines support to move around the map.
The issue is you cant stop a rolling arc train, marines can simply fly along with FT/JP/GL and blow anything other than onos away whilt the train keeps on rolling.
Atleast with a siege base you stood a chance of delaying that 2nd siege from being set up as they where often weak points (take out phase and they went down easy), good alien teams responded quickly thanks to hive teleporting (again its absence is noted...if this was brought back this might help aliens respond) and could often do a lot to prevent these...at the very least delay them.
The fact that a team can build 10 arcs in a safe base...then rolls them to stab monitoring and arc 2 hives down in less than a minute, just escort with a few marines with JP's and GL's.
What I mean is that the very instant aliens know that they are going to be sieged, they are going to start taking counter-measures, which mainly means bile bomb. If the first time aliens realise they will be sieged is when the ARCs are already in position, then they deserve to have their hive killed. In NS1 an equivalent would be that you realise you're being sieged only when the sieges first start firing, which is way too late. Scouting is the key. Also, two gorges bile bombing an arc train will get it killed, if both gorges manage to fire 4-5 bile bombs into the arc train, they will all get killed, and there's no way any welding marine is going to counter that, especially when the rest of the team should be killing and harassing the defending marines. And when the ARCs are deployed, it usually gets even easier to bile them down from the relative safety of the hive room, depending on the hive of course. Some hives are easier to siege than others. For example Warehouse in ns2_tram is a bit problematic, since the turn in North Tunnels is extremely easy for marines to defend while sieging. That's when the aliens have to concentrate on not letting the ARC train ever reach that spot.
Your post makes it seem as if marines can just build sieges in their base, march the sieges for half the map, deploy them and shoot the alien hive down with the aliens not interfering with it in any way. If the aliens really are that passive, they deserve to lose. In competitive matches there's usually a window of about 2-5 minutes between the time we, as aliens, KNOW that we're gonna be sieged soon, and the time when the sieging actually happens. Plenty of time to harass, prepare and get bile bomb done.
Haha, I knew something you didn't!
Grow up.
What I mean is that the very instant aliens know that they are going to be sieged, they are going to start taking counter-measures, which mainly means bile bomb. If the first time aliens realise they will be sieged is when the ARCs are already in position, then they deserve to have their hive killed. In NS1 an equivalent would be that you realise you're being sieged only when the sieges first start firing, which is way too late. Scouting is the key. Also, two gorges bile bombing an arc train will get it killed, if both gorges manage to fire 4-5 bile bombs into the arc train, they will all get killed, and there's no way any welding marine is going to counter that, especially when the rest of the team should be killing and harassing the defending marines. And when the ARCs are deployed, it usually gets even easier to bile them down from the relative safety of the hive room, depending on the hive of course. Some hives are easier to siege than others. For example Warehouse in ns2_tram is a bit problematic, since the turn in North Tunnels is extremely easy for marines to defend while sieging. That's when the aliens have to concentrate on not letting the ARC train ever reach that spot.
Your post makes it seem as if marines can just build sieges in their base, march the sieges for half the map, deploy them and shoot the alien hive down with the aliens not interfering with it in any way. If the aliens really are that passive, they deserve to lose. In competitive matches there's usually a window of about 2-5 minutes between the time we, as aliens, KNOW that we're gonna be sieged soon, and the time when the sieging actually happens. Plenty of time to harass, prepare and get bile bomb done.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You say they cant just waltz across a map...well that is pretty much what they can do on most of the maps, by being able to build them away from the front line unless aliens are going into marine spawn and checking they will have no prior warning (except maybe a beacon..but they can have many causes...not all are arcs, though all are bad).
You think that biling down 10-15 arcs is easy? Especially if a marine team is actively defending with JP's GL's and FT's?
Its not, it can take out hundreds of res in investment (hives, upgrades, whips, harvesters etc) with in locations such as central (mineshaft) being examples of how this mobility mechanic plays havoc.
I am just pleased like nano, most marine comms dont use them often and rarely well, but they are devastating and impossible to stop if used correctly.
<!--quoteo(post=1952145:date=Jul 17 2012, 03:57 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jul 17 2012, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952145"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Activating an ARC just means it can behave as the current deployed ARC does. So yeah, it would keep firing until there are no targets or they are undeployed by the commander.
It would look like this:
1) Commander moves sieges to location and "deploys" ARC
2) Marines "activate" the deployed ARC
3) ARC can now fire at things
4a) ARC is "undeployed" by commander and moved elsewhere
or
4b) ARC is left "deployed" (and "activated") to hold location
The commander can deploy and undeploy ARCs, but marines need to activate them. Marines cannot activate an ARC unless it is deployed and are not required to de-activate it if the commander wants to move the ARCs on to a new location.
Basically, the commander keeps full autonomy of the ARCs except for when he wants to siege a location (a good thing).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1952142:date=Jul 17 2012, 03:48 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jul 17 2012, 03:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952142"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My solution ensures that spamming yields almost zero benefit beyond what the marines can effectively activate (a neat diminishing return). Marines will not be able to attack more than two areas at once realistically and excessive ARC production cannot be capitalised on. The extent to which marines can take advantage of ARCs is linked to the number of marines present which makes sense. Other benefits of this solution include cementing the link between commander and marine, preventing NS2 from becoming PvE and making use of the current design/animations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its not, it can take out hundreds of res in investment (hives, upgrades, whips, harvesters etc) with in locations such as central (mineshaft) being examples of how this mobility mechanic plays havoc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the Commander has fielded like 400 tres worth of equipment (including the tech) and the Marines are equipped with hundreds of pres worth of equipment (total), and you're complaining that that's hard to beat?
How long would activation take? It would have to be quite a length process to prevent a single marine from activating tens of ARCs.
What if ARCs were used almost exclusively for defense clearing? I mean, the reason you use ARCs should be if you cannot enter the room due to an enormous number of structures. So why then are ARCs used almost exclusively to kill hives instead?
If ARCs had a much larger AOE (say 2 times what it currently is) but did something like a third of the damage, they would be ideal for clearing large amounts of support structures, but less than ideal for destroying something with a ton of health like a hive. Then the marines should move in and do what they are supposed to do, rather than letting the ARCs fight for them.
Locker room from bar is pretty terrible.
Yes, this is why arcs have been getting slowly nerfed over the beta, tweaking hit points, deploy times, damage rates based on being deployed or not.
Well guarded arc trains are devestating, they lost their appeal a bit since exo's arrived but they still have the same issues.
The answer thrown around has always been "Bile bomb", yet UWE have continued to try to get them to have greater downsides/limitations without having to put in place a hard cap on their numbers.
The fact marines dont have to wait more than a few seconds before the arcs can start firing coupled with the aliens inability to move across the map fast enough (especially gorges and Onii) means they are rarely able to be stopped. This is more so if the arcs are actually no in tine room next to what is being arced (but 2-3 rooms over...ie central-deopsit).
Whilst few comms know how to use them effectively, there are a couple I have both with and against who know all too well how to use this strat successfully.
I just hope people are slow on the uptake.