Ns2_Veil Balancing Issues
butter
Join Date: 2013-01-04 Member: 177368Members
Join Date: 2013-01-04 Member: 177368Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Map design favors aliens</div>There are a few issues with the map that makes it almost impossible for Marines to win.
The biggest and perhaps game breaking is the fact the Gorges can bile bomb the power node in Nanogrid from the rear vents without taking any damage from marine's guns. They are impossible to hit. The vent design allows them to be immune to bullets. It's game breaking because you have to take Nanogrid in order to win the game and its simply impossible to defend for marines. I have seen this tactic used by the alien team even in professional matches.
The second problem is that the marines always spawn in the very top of the map, it is extremely far away from the other chair positions. If the phase or power goes down in any of the other chairs than by the time the marines make it there to defend it has already been cysted and whips have been placed.
Also, skylights is very hard to defend because of the vent placement positioned directly in front of the RT. The vents are everywhere and basically every resource node has instant access via the vent system.
The map needs to be reworked because right now it is extremely rare for marines to win on that map. Even when their K/D ratios are higher than the entire alien team mid-game.
The biggest and perhaps game breaking is the fact the Gorges can bile bomb the power node in Nanogrid from the rear vents without taking any damage from marine's guns. They are impossible to hit. The vent design allows them to be immune to bullets. It's game breaking because you have to take Nanogrid in order to win the game and its simply impossible to defend for marines. I have seen this tactic used by the alien team even in professional matches.
The second problem is that the marines always spawn in the very top of the map, it is extremely far away from the other chair positions. If the phase or power goes down in any of the other chairs than by the time the marines make it there to defend it has already been cysted and whips have been placed.
Also, skylights is very hard to defend because of the vent placement positioned directly in front of the RT. The vents are everywhere and basically every resource node has instant access via the vent system.
The map needs to be reworked because right now it is extremely rare for marines to win on that map. Even when their K/D ratios are higher than the entire alien team mid-game.
Comments
Pipeline is a bad alien start because it is so far away from the RT's and easily cut off as well. ScardyBob said it already, it is a marine biased map if anything. Cyst chains have a hard time to get to the interesting parts without constantly being harassed as well
+1 to this.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, skylights is very hard to defend because of the vent placement positioned directly in front of the RT. The vents are everywhere and basically every resource node has instant access via the vent system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
marines can jump into the vent in skylights which will seriously turn the tide in the early game pushing into overlook.
EDIT: I should of added, if they start pipe, phase dome, if they start sub, phase waypointing, if they started cargo, phase yjunc and rush that ######.
Yep. This. Veil is seriously easy to lose moments into the game, for both sides. Focusing too much on double, not enough on double or marines managing to take out resource towers (which cost alot to cyst to on veil).
First this is an NS1 map that was converted, and so it was designed for a different style of game.
Second, the stats show the win/loss rate is pretty much identical to the overall win/loss rate. Yeah aliens win ~60%+ of the time, but they do that overall. So I don't think the map is horridly biased towards aliens. I'll have another look one they balance the game though.
As for imbalances, yeah there are imbalances, but we need to be able to start welding shut some vents to help fix it. Skylights and Overlook are two that really need weldability. It's almost impossible to keep the skylights node up, no matter what hive the aliens start in. It seems like on every map there is one res node that is impossible for marines to keep alive. Skylights on Veil, East Wing on Docking, Transit on Refinery, Ventilation on Summit, Gap on Mineshaft. Despite marines holding many res nodes, those nodes all have express routes to them, which make them painfully easy to kill.
Part of the problem with Veil is that because the marines were able to siege Nano from marine start, they moved marine start further away. This makes it harder to transit to the rest of the map though, and puts marines a LONG way away from all of the other tech points.
Nano is WAY overrated in Veil.
So many times marine teams go for that first and then are not able to take any other tech points because they spent too much res building Nano up and defending it early. Marines should be going for a tech point first.
Marines can also take Nano later in the game fairly easily by sending some Arcs to west junction which will clean out Nano.
Skylights is easly defendable by just having 1 person go up in the vent. You can climb that panel next to the vent to get into it.
Except for in many cases, including the one I outlined above...
I agree that nano is important, but I think the key significance of nano is knowing when to leave it alone if you've not got it early. If you don't get nano, you have to secure a tech point near nano. Which means sub because cargo is just horrible. Then you can work on denying nano, and pushing cargo to corner the aliens into a corner of the map with no res points...
Getting nano isn't the only thing that wins veil for either team.
lets put it this way, any relatively average strategy that is bogged down by the majority as a 'no win' situation, is always the best way to go? Why? Because if they think its pointless and not worth it, they wont counter it enough to prevent it from springing from an average strategy to the best one avaliable.
If aliens take nano, they can amass at maximum 5 res nodes, and its a 10 res node map, so then the nodes are even between both teams. Contrary to popular belief, the notion that aliens need fewer nodes than marines is not true. It was true back when aliens could drop Onos eggs. Since they no longer can, the entire focus of alien res gain is focused on Pres, not Tres. And It doesn't matter which side you are on, PRes benefits equally from more nodes.
So a 5v5 res node game, where aliens can't get a 3rd hive and marines already have 2... well that is a straight marine victory without issue. Also, you just ARC out nano 5 minutes into the game, and its an even easier win.
If you deny marines System Waypointing you won't have a hard time winning as aliens, unless you're getting massively outskilled. Even when spawning in Pipeline against a clan at our own level we win more often than not. Cargo or Sub is no contest. But it seems like everyone agrees that Pipeline is the worst hive to spawn in at least.
We (Mercury) see a very high win-ratio as aliens on Veil, something that at least also Archaea and a few others would agree with.
Also, Strofix, your assessment on alien/marine economy is faulty above the pub level. Fade eggs exist at hive2, and at the high level you don't really use that many oni since they're vulnerable to JPs.
Summary: Pipeline is awful, map as a whole is alien biased (only 1 proper strategic point for marines, System; and C-12/east as a weak second). Bilebomb leaves Nanogrid unattainable by marines after the 8th minute until JP or GL.
If aliens take nano, they can amass at maximum 5 res nodes, and its a 10 res node map, so then the nodes are even between both teams. Contrary to popular belief, the notion that aliens need fewer nodes than marines is not true. It was true back when aliens could drop Onos eggs. Since they no longer can, the entire focus of alien res gain is focused on Pres, not Tres. And It doesn't matter which side you are on, PRes benefits equally from more nodes.
So a 5v5 res node game, where aliens can't get a 3rd hive and marines already have 2... well that is a straight marine victory without issue. Also, you just ARC out nano 5 minutes into the game, and its an even easier win.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THIS! God I get so annoyed at marine teams that think WE HAS TO TAKE NANO! NO, you do not! Marines start with both skylights and topo in easy reach, which is the same as double res. And if the aliens start at sub or pipe, well you get half the map right off the bat unless your team is incompetent. Couple this with the the fact that nano is definitely (not probably, but definitely) the easiest room on any NS2 map to siege. All you have to do is build your res early, get a phase and a couple arcs in east or west junction and DENY them nano, have a 2nd tech point, and the game is yours. Plain and simple. Nano is the most godawful room to hold as a marine, but it's also the most godawful room to hold as an alien as well if you're smart and focus on the 2nd tech point and res nodes leading to those, as well as maybe on more. I've done this time, and time, and time again. Yet you still see marine teams that think they have to have nano. Denying is just as good, and arcs make that piss easy.
Yes, I repeat myself alot in this post, because for some reason logic just hits deaf ears on this map too often.
If you deny marines System Waypointing you won't have a hard time winning as aliens, unless you're getting massively outskilled. Even when spawning in Pipeline against a clan at our own level we win more often than not. Cargo or Sub is no contest. But it seems like everyone agrees that Pipeline is the worst hive to spawn in at least.
We (Mercury) see a very high win-ratio as aliens on Veil, something that at least also Archaea and a few others would agree with.
Also, Strofix, your assessment on alien/marine economy is faulty above the pub level. Fade eggs exist at hive2, and at the high level you don't really use that many oni since they're vulnerable to JPs.
Summary: Pipeline is awful, map as a whole is alien biased (only 1 proper strategic point for marines, System; and C-12/east as a weak second). Bilebomb leaves Nanogrid unattainable by marines after the 8th minute until JP or GL.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The aliens are overall more powerful than the marines. Of course they will win more often, unless you play a map where marine start overlooks the alien hive. You can simply look at it from a logistical point of view and immediately see that the map is hopelessly marine biased.
Almost all maps in the game at the moment are balanced around the principle of immediate offence or spreading your forces to defend. That is to say that marines have two options: either push the aliens from the start, and attempt to win a quick game in less than 10 minures, or lock down and defend 3 locations, namely marine spawn, and two other tech points. In veil, this is cut down to two locations to defend, and in fact its more like 1.5 locations to defend, because of marine start's position (only two entrances, which is reduces to one since marines will always have heavy control of one side of the map). Marine spawn in veil is essentially unassailable.
The fade point is fair enough, but honestly, pub fades get stomped by pub marines, I see no reason why competitive fades wouldn't get stomped by competitive marines.
And therein lies your problem Strofix. At the top level, aliens are not THAT much stronger than marines. There's an imbalance in the resource model, which more or less means the aliens win any time they're allowed to expand to 4+ RTs, but they don't absolutely dominate combat.
<!--quoteo(post=2066988:date=Jan 26 2013, 02:07 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 26 2013, 02:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fade point is fair enough, but honestly, pub fades get stomped by pub marines, I see no reason why competitive fades wouldn't get stomped by competitive marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because competitive fades aren't played by people who don't know how to use shadowstep/blink/double jump. Once the fades appear in comp play, the game changes from marines being more dominant to moving in groups and trying to kill the fades. Case in point, our very own laama during this weeks ENSL semifinals against CoolClan: <a href="http://ns2stats.org/round/round/47984" target="_blank">38-9</a> no deaths as fade. And these are by no means poor marines.
I feel much more confident playing marines on Summit or Tram than on Veil, it's just such a horrible map if you lose your early phase gate, hard to recover from.
In my limited experience, a fade who goes up against any more than 2 marines is instantly killed. Even 1 fade and 2 skulks vs 3 marines, the 3 marines will just focus fire the fade, and kill it. If you can't beat a group of marines, then what good can you possibly do a game as group based as this?
In my limited experience, a fade who goes up against any more than 2 marines is instantly killed. Even 1 fade and 2 skulks vs 3 marines, the 3 marines will just focus fire the fade, and kill it. If you can't beat a group of marines, then what good can you possibly do a game as group based as this?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Going further out this tangent for the sake of strofix. Public games != competitive games. The teamwork is a given, it's already there. What matters is whether or not you can plan ahead, utilise tactics and KILL people. Doesn't matter if you're the best strategist in the world, if your fades are going splat all over the place you're screwed in the long run. Sending 3 skulks against 2 JP/SGs usually means death for the skulks, but sending 3 fades against 2 JP/SGs means 2 dead marines with little stress for the aliens.
1 fade against 2 SGs often spells death for the fade, one fade against 2 LMGs the fade can usually kill at least one (where a skulk would just drop dead).
Fades win competitive games. If you haven't played competitively (which your statements indicate), you'd have a hard time commenting on what is a gamewinning lifeform when people know how to use it.
1 fade against 2 SGs often spells death for the fade, one fade against 2 LMGs the fade can usually kill at least one (where a skulk would just drop dead).
Fades win competitive games. If you haven't played competitively (which your statements indicate), you'd have a hard time commenting on what is a gamewinning lifeform when people know how to use it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The difference between competitive and public is small in ideal cases. Sure, you play on a few random official servers and you get some COD kids that have come to check out this new awsom indie game, but you do get proper servers than have experienced players. There, the only difference is that the team doesn't contain 6 people who have dedicated their time and effort to working together. I used to frequent the international servers, and I played the oh-so-scary "competitive" players. Sure, they were good. Better than me? Ye, why not, they did some things better. I also had 300ms and 10 FPS at the time, so hey, who knows.
The point, as I so frequently and pointlessly try to make, is that this is not counter-strike. The so called "competitive" teams did not rise to their position through combating thousands of other, similar groups, whom they defeated. Instead this is NS2, where the competitive teams are simply people who decided they would make a clan. If you know how to play NS2, and you live in America or central Europe, you can make a clan right now and be called competitive the first time Hugh or Wasabi says something about a game you played in. Wow, what a steep barrier to entry.
Also, going from my last paragraph, I often find it hilarious that competitive players in NS2 so frequently hide behind the fact that someone else has not been in a game commentated by Hugh or Wasabi (the defining feature of competitive games). This is because the only reason someone who plays NS2 isn't in a competitive team is because he either doesn't live in America or Central Europe, or because he just doesn't want to.
Wrong, it’s more of a 50/50 map win but if the marine team knows what they are doing it’s almost impossible for aliens to win.
<!--quoteo(post=2066565:date=Jan 25 2013, 11:21 AM:name=butter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (butter @ Jan 25 2013, 11:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066565"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The biggest and perhaps game breaking is the fact the Gorges can bile bomb the power node in Nanogrid from the rear vents without taking any damage from marine's guns. They are impossible to hit. The vent design allows them to be immune to bullets. It's game breaking because you have to take Nanogrid in order to win the game and its simply impossible to defend for marines. I have seen this tactic used by the alien team even in professional matches.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That’s what gl’s are used for, bile bomb is a hive 2 ability so if they go straight for bile bomb before you get gl’s that means they are by passing a lot of other abilities to get it first.
<!--quoteo(post=2066565:date=Jan 25 2013, 11:21 AM:name=butter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (butter @ Jan 25 2013, 11:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066565"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also, skylights is very hard to defend because of the vent placement positioned directly in front of the RT. The vents are everywhere and basically every resource node has instant access via the vent system.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dude really? Marines can run up the wall in skylights and kill anything in there, this also makes it very hard for aliens to hold overlook since marines can shoot it from a well covered vent.
<!--quoteo(post=2066565:date=Jan 25 2013, 11:21 AM:name=butter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (butter @ Jan 25 2013, 11:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066565"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The map needs to be reworked because right now it is extremely rare for marines to win on that map. Even when their K/D ratios are higher than the entire alien team mid-game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have complained for a long time that this map favors marines more than anything else. You have the map section between east junction and the dome that makes it very alien un-friendly. In subsector if marines lock it down it becomes extremely difficult for aliens to push them out. It used to be that gorges could bile bomb from the vents on the east side of subsector and clear everything out. That was until they added the half down doors to prevent that and guess what they finally removed them BUT added covers on the vents to prevent any kind of attack from the vents. WHY did they do this, so that exo’s can walk right in and shoot the hive.
Also the fact in recent changes arcs were not able to hit both harvesters in nanogrid but now they are, so arcs can be placed on either side and take out most everything in nano.
Fades are pretty good if you can find lone players or groups of 2 lmgers but pretty poor for forcing any issues as the player cap rises.
I like veil.
It does have issues with random spawns changing difficulty to a large degree but its not the only map that that happens. Its one of the few maps where cutting the cyst chain is realistic and good.
Nanogrid vents could do with a change because of bile but because gorges can get anywhere a skulk can evolve most maps have places prone to this.
I dont think the map is bad its more that aliens need nerfs or useless marine tech (sentry, exo, gls) need buffs.
I certainly hate Mineshaft and Refinery more. Mineshaft feels like it has a fairly sharp tipping point because of the shape of the map with pointed ends and Refinery is still alien HQ.
In every game I play on veil, as marine player, marine comm, alien player or even alien comm, I always see one of two strategies.
Either the aliens expand directly to nano, and then to one of the other hive rooms, or they expand directly to one of the hive rooms, and then go to nano.
Maybe in this map, contrary to most of the others, it is best to immediately expand to two hive rooms, and endeavour to hold them, while allowing marines to have the rest of the map.
While it is true that marines only need to hold one tech point to deny aliens a third hive, its also true that, relative to other maps, the tech points are very far away from marine start. Keeping marines out of the hives should therefore be a simpler task than it is on those other maps. If starting in Cargo or Sub, the majority of alien defenders should focus on keeping the left most untaken hive room clear of marines. Pipe hive is so out of the way that it is probably the last place the marines will try to hit first. Additionally, C12 is essentially the only access point marines have to that side of the map, which means that a single gorge could probably lock it down quite effectively.
The only concern would be marines out teching aliens too quickly, which is probably a very real possibility.