It IS horribly Marine-sided. It hurts Aliens more only having four total TPs. It makes it almost necessary to secure all three, but WAIT Marines need one as well. You could argue this makes fail more fun (as it forces conflicts). That's just it though, the gameplay on this map just isn't fun, because it is so predictable. Fail worked well in NS1 for all the reasons it doesn't work in NS2. NS1's gameplay mechanics involved complete mobility for Marines and relative mobility for Aliens as well (due to Gorge reliance). Marines only locked down a hive in NS1 to lock out further evolution for Aliens (much as it is in NS2), not because there was any additional benefits of holding a hive location.
Now why is ns2_fail Marine-sided? Because you simply have to control a few areas and essentially have the entire map locked down with the Aliens strangled. When I command, I usually have everyone run to Nano IMMEDIATELY. This is two-fold. It is simply one of the most powerful locations on the map to hold, especially for Marines. Fail can break down into only a few scenarios and it happens over and over again:
A) Aliens start in Sub; Marines rush Nano > research PG and Mines > drop RTs/Armory > drop PG > push to Cargo > win by attrition. B) Aliens start in Pipe; Marines rush Nano > research PG and Mines > drop RTs/Armory > drop PG > push to Cargo > win by attrition. C) Aliens start in Cargo (ideal); Marines rush Nano or Sub; ==If Sub > fortify as per usual > push to Nano > If entrenched already, ARCs from West > push Cargo > fortify Nano and Cargo > win by attrition. ==If Nano > see A and B > push to Sub > push to Cargo > if entrenched, fortify Y-Junction > win by attrition. D) Marines mess around with Skylights and Topographic > Failure.
I see the above scenarios happen the majority of the time, with the focal point almost always being on Nano for both Aliens and Marines. The problem is, unlike other maps that have double resource rooms, is that Nanogrid is also strategically critical. One could argue that's the entire point, but rooms such as Mineshaft's Central can be a wash for Marines if they control three TPs. This brings me to my point of this map being horrible for lacking a fifth TP all in an effort to remain "faithful" to the original map design. I realize if this were to be implemented it would result in the dreaded "cartwheel" map, but such is mapping when there is no Y-axis to play with.
<b>TL;DR: ns2_fail needs a fifth TP in order to be considered remotely competitive.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=2067023:date=Jan 26 2013, 04:52 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 26 2013, 04:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067023"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The difference between competitive and public is small in ideal cases. Sure, you play on a few random official servers and you get some COD kids that have come to check out this new awsom indie game, but you do get proper servers than have experienced players. There, the only difference is that the team doesn't contain 6 people who have dedicated their time and effort to working together. I used to frequent the international servers, and I played the oh-so-scary "competitive" players. Sure, they were good. Better than me? Ye, why not, they did some things better. I also had 300ms and 10 FPS at the time, so hey, who knows.
The point, as I so frequently and pointlessly try to make, is that this is not counter-strike. The so called "competitive" teams did not rise to their position through combating thousands of other, similar groups, whom they defeated. Instead this is NS2, where the competitive teams are simply people who decided they would make a clan. If you know how to play NS2, and you live in America or central Europe, you can make a clan right now and be called competitive the first time Hugh or Wasabi says something about a game you played in. Wow, what a steep barrier to entry.
Also, going from my last paragraph, I often find it hilarious that competitive players in NS2 so frequently hide behind the fact that someone else has not been in a game commentated by Hugh or Wasabi (the defining feature of competitive games). This is because the only reason someone who plays NS2 isn't in a competitive team is because he either doesn't live in America or Central Europe, or because he just doesn't want to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[Offtopic] I was never talking about the teams that were just put together and practice once every 2 weeks, they're not what comes to my mind when speaking of competitive. I guess that was a bit of miscommunication.
You're more than welcome to put together 6 of your "competitive" players and give any of the top teams a run for their money, we'd appreciate the challenge. As it stands, we (Mercury) are placed high enough in the tournaments we play in that I dare say we are at the top of NS2 play. And regardless of what you might think about the difference between competitive and public play, there are things that are impressively strong in one setting and weak in the other. Mines and fades come to mind.
Why would comments from Hugh or Wasabi be the defining feature for a competitive team?
At the end of the day, all I'm saying is that you should stop making baseless assumptions on what happens at the top level based on what goes on in public play. [/offtopic]
<!--quoteo(post=2067337:date=Jan 27 2013, 01:37 PM:name=WildChicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WildChicken @ Jan 27 2013, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067337"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At the end of the day, all I'm saying is that you should stop making <b><i>baseless </i></b>assumptions on what happens at the top level <b><i>based on</i></b> what goes on in public play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hehehehehe
Also, I've never heard of you, but lets say you are "at the top" of NS2 play. In fact, lets be super optimistic, and say that you are the third best NS2 clan in the world. I would say there must be arroouund 20 or so clans that actually even play NS2, or regularly engage in matches against other clans. Lets be nice again and say that only 50% of these clans are simply bad, or just partake for the lulz, and therefore need not be included. That would then put your 3rd best clan in the top 70th percentile of people who attempt to play competitively.
That isn't very good bro...
Even if you were Archea, your players would, in the best case, be spread among the top 90th percentile, which also isn't very good. The only way for you to prove to me that you are good enough to make an astounding and quite inconceivable difference to the game is if you were in the top fraction of a percentile. Without that, nothing you say carries any weight. Its like being in the highest grade of primary school, just waiting to be the lowest rung at highschool.
Let me make up and throw in random, inaccurate, erroneous numbers and statistics about competitive play, which, as my entire post suggests, is something that I have no idea about, and then use those numbers to back up my opinion about something I still have no idea about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I fixed it for you.
Please strofix, you're only making a fool out of yourself.
Also, I've never heard of you, but lets say you are "at the top" of NS2 play. In fact, lets be super optimistic, and say that you are the third best NS2 clan in the world. I would say there must be arroouund 20 or so clans that actually even play NS2, or regularly engage in matches against other clans. Lets be nice again and say that only 50% of these clans are simply bad, or just partake for the lulz, and therefore need not be included. That would then put your 3rd best clan in the top 70th percentile of people who attempt to play competitively.
That isn't very good bro...
Even if you were Archea, your players would, in the best case, be spread among the top 90th percentile, which also isn't very good. The only way for you to prove to me that you are good enough to make an astounding and quite inconceivable difference to the game is if you were in the top fraction of a percentile. Without that, nothing you say carries any weight. Its like being in the highest grade of primary school, just waiting to be the lowest rung at highschool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not sure if troll....
If not you should REALLY stop here before it gets even more embarrassing...
I still hate veil, even though it's growing on me from time to time.
What I don't like:
1) Long-ass walks, for BOTH sides. The paths that I usually want to take are often meandering all over the place.
2) I am god-damn tired of playing whack-a-mole duty on marines. Combine this with point 1, and I have literally given up on Skylights and Topographical. It's a long walk from spawn, but not long enough to warrant a phase gate. Sigh...
<!--quoteo(post=2067350:date=Jan 27 2013, 02:58 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 27 2013, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067350"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dude, WildChicken is a billion times better than you. Don't bother.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My point exactly. The idea of competitive games being oh so different to public ones is propogated by these mindless fan boys, who think whatever they are told to.
Let me get this right, you've never seen me play, who don't know what my ingame nick is, you don't know what servers I play on, yet you make this claim and seek to call me the presumptuous one?
See what logic you can scrounge together, and tell me that that makes sense.
<!--quoteo(post=2067355:date=Jan 27 2013, 03:18 PM:name=Therius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Therius @ Jan 27 2013, 03:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I fixed it for you.
Please strofix, you're only making a fool out of yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's a tip, to prevent you from making yourself look like a fool. In the company of gentlemen and scholars, rather than among dimwits and dolts, people can quite quickly identify an ad hominem, even if it is dressed up as some sort of pseudo-logic retort. Therefore, if someone does truly make up baseless figures out of thin air, attack the figures. Simply say "well as you can see here from this data, there are in fact X number of competing NS2 clans, not Y as you claim". Anybody can call out an assumption buy saying that it isn't 100% provable. You need to show that my approximation is way off, and I don't think that you can.
<!--quoteo(post=2067367:date=Jan 27 2013, 03:07 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 27 2013, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My point exactly. The idea of competitive games being oh so different to public ones is propogated by these mindless fan boys, who think whatever they are told to.
Let me get this right, you've never seen me play, who don't know what my ingame nick is, you don't know what servers I play on, yet you make this claim and seek to call me the presumptuous one?
See what logic you can scrounge together, and tell me that that makes sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You claim fades get slaughtered by marines, something that quite simply isn't true. Statements like these are what we base our presumptions about you on.
<!--quoteo(post=2067370:date=Jan 27 2013, 04:13 PM:name=WildChicken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WildChicken @ Jan 27 2013, 04:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067370"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You claim fades get slaughtered by marines, something that quite simply isn't true. Statements like these are what we base our presumptions about you on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Brb, going through the "fades are weak" threads to fine just a single competitive player's post.
<!--quoteo(post=2050615:date=Dec 24 2012, 01:01 PM:name=wiry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wiry @ Dec 24 2012, 01:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->100 armor without carapace and making sure the animations work properly so that you at least have a chance to dodge the marine attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's competitive isn't he? Maybe I'm wrong, the name just seems familiar. Tell me if he isn't so I can remove this while I look for more.
<!--quoteo(post=2067367:date=Jan 27 2013, 04:07 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 27 2013, 04:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here's a tip, to prevent you from making yourself look like a fool. In the company of gentlemen and scholars, rather than among dimwits and dolts, people can quite quickly identify an ad hominem, even if it is dressed up as some sort of pseudo-logic retort. Therefore, if someone does truly make up baseless figures out of thin air, attack the figures. Simply say "well as you can see here from this data, there are in fact X number of competing NS2 clans, not Y as you claim". Anybody can call out an assumption buy saying that it isn't 100% provable. You need to show that my approximation is way off, and I don't think that you can.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And as you can see, you're still not backing your figures, you're just attacking me attacking you, making us both idiots. But the difference is, that my point was to point out that you're a dimwit whereas your point was to... hell, I have no idea what your point was apart from being completely wrong.
Anyway, figures. In the ENSL (http://www.ensl.org/) league, there are 5 divisions with 2 groups each, and with an average of 5-6 teams per group, which means that there were about 60 competing teams in the first season of ENSL, and that's in Europe alone. They have a separate league for NA and Australia as well.
Also, your argument about percentiles is a complete moot point. Skill doesn't follow percentiles when talking about a small game, I have no proof to back this claim, but every single player in the top 80 percentile and even lower is a god in the game compared to your average public player. I actually laughed aloud when you claimed that everything one says can be disregarded if he's not at the top fraction of a percentile of the competitive scene.
Also, your ultra-positive assumptions about Chicken's clan were not positive enough, Mercury might very well be the BEST clan in NS2 after a few weeks. Check the ENSL finals at Cologne, it's Archaea vs. Mercury.
<!--quoteo(post=2067377:date=Jan 27 2013, 07:25 AM:name=Therius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Therius @ Jan 27 2013, 07:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067377"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And as you can see, you're still not backing your figures, you're just attacking me attacking you, making us both idiots. But the difference is, that my point was to point out that you're a dimwit whereas your point was to... hell, I have no idea what your point was apart from being completely wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2067379:date=Jan 27 2013, 04:33 PM:name=Squishpoke)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squishpoke @ Jan 27 2013, 04:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067379"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... wtf did I just read?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could have phrased that better.
The point of my maybe-too-witty-and-aggressive post was to point out that you can't just go about making figures off the top of your head and base all your claims on said figures. My point was never to actually correct his figures, but to point out the general flaw in his statements that he just made everything up. Instead of proceeding to back his made-up figures with actual sources, he said the equivalent of "you can't attack me making these figures up, you must first dig the real figures from somewhere". I didn't dig any statistics up, because everybody knows those figures are off, and that he more or less admitted it himself in his post with phrases like "let's say" "I would say there are..." "let's be nice and say..." etc.
I just wanted to point out how ridiculous he sounded with that post, not actually disprove his figures, which everyone knows are off.
<!--quoteo(post=2067381:date=Jan 27 2013, 04:43 PM:name=Therius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Therius @ Jan 27 2013, 04:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067381"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just wanted to point out how ridiculous he sounded with that post, not actually disprove his figures, which everyone knows are off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cliche strategy. State that you aren't trying to show something is wrong, and then add that everyone already knows it is wrong. You are at the highest tier of psuedo-intellectuality. God job sir.
Either way, this tangent has become too destructive. Maybe I simply feel that competitive players are undeserving because it has always annoyed me that I am so good, but live in a location which makes me unable to demonstrate it. It almost makes me want to join international servers again, to perhaps come up against someone that isn't a walkover. We obviously won't agree, so lets leave it at this I'm wrong because I have never played competitive and don't know what I'm talking about You're wrong because you're biased and want to believe that your level means something
I admit I should have disproved your figures (which I did in a later post), but if I meet someone who's talking about a flat Earth and is being completely serious with backing his arguments with things he admits making up just for the sake of argument, the first thing that comes into my mind isn't to start disproving him, but to marvel at his idiocy.
<!--quoteo(post=2067386:date=Jan 27 2013, 04:56 PM:name=Therius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Therius @ Jan 27 2013, 04:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067386"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I admit I should have disproved your figures (which I did in a later post), but if I meet someone who's talking about a flat Earth and is being completely serious with backing his arguments with things he admits making up just for the sake of argument, the first thing that comes into my mind isn't to start disproving him, but to marvel at his idiocy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could you please direct me to the page on the ensl site where it shows all currently active clans. As you can tell, I clearly have no idea how many there are, and would like to find out. Thanks.
Look at the 'previous contests' list, since the regular season has already gone, you'll find all the teams from their division and group. Most, if not all, of those teams are still active, since inactive clans have been removed from the division groups during the season.
I do admit that it's an extremely small game with a tiny competitive player scene. Only makes the difference between public and competitive gameplay much larger, though, I think.
another problem with pub games is they think you can only put phase gate at a tech point or in nano, they never bother with putting a phase in system waypoint, or the neck, also a lot of pubers think that Nano is everything and they over commit, I have been in games with marines completely ignoring nano taking rt's in c12 and overlook instead, while aliens just protect nano forget about skylights and topo which are completely undefended
Wouldst thy royal scholarly buttocks care to march one's theory to a physical arena to set thine mind upon a competitive stick? Or wouldst thou prefer an ego bereft of defeat?
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
Competitive play is very much different from public play. Strategies aren't usually too different (e.g. marines still go for PGs/sgs/ups and aliens for cara and/or celerity), but the positioning, organization, and execution of these strats are an order of magnitude better than any public match I've seen or played in.
There is a good selection of recent comp matches that showcase this. I'd suggest the following: ENSL SF - Archaea vs Duplex: <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/talutha/b/359243759" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/talutha/b/359243759</a> ENSL SF - Inversion vs All-In: <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/virsoul/b/359352626" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/virsoul/b/359352626</a> FNSM - Breakfast Klub vs Damage Networks: <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360704009" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360704009</a> <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360725505" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360725505</a> <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360731754" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360731754</a> (watch this as it has the craziest ending I've ever seen in a comp match) <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360737155" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360737155</a> <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360745608" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360745608</a>
Strofix you don't have to respect the NS2 competitive community, but if you think that just because we are a small community means that the competitive scene is similar to the pub scene.....well you have another thing coming.
While a load of clanners are reading this topic, I'm guessing 3 evenings a week isn't really enough of a commitment, or can it be? I have limited gaming time but am keen to move onto the next stage. Maybe I should work on pugs first...
Roo
(PS haven't played competitively since Kingpin over a decade ago, but I was in the top UK clan in that game!)
The stats show that Veil is no more alien-biased in pub play than any other map. Putting aside the differences between pub balance and competitive balance, which are many, Veil does have some general design issues for NS2 gameplay. I don't claim to know enough about map design to know how to fix it, but I hope that the team will consider potentially drastic changes if they prove necessary. I don't think there's a need to preserve a picture-perfect copy of the NS1 layout. It's Veil as long as it has all the iconic rooms and their general position relative to eachother, but the details like how close together they are, how they connect to eachother, where the RTs are, etc etc aren't really important IMO.
The biggest problem I have with Veil is that Nanogrid is simply too difficult for Marines to take over early-mid game. Gorgeous can bile bomb everything in there from the rear vents and Marines cannot do anything to contest this without jetpacks.
The biggest problem I have with Veil is that Nanogrid is simply too difficult for Marines to take over early-mid game. Gorgeous can bile bomb everything in there from the rear vents and Marines cannot do anything to contest this without jetpacks.
You say marines can't take nano early game (which is wrong but not my point), then you go on to say it's because of gorge bile bomb? I don't know about you, but I really have my work put out for me when I go for bile bomb at 2 minutes.
Also, again you're wrong, marines can actually shoot gorges in the back vents if they stand back down the hallway's entering nano, they can nick the top of the gorges and eventually kill them unless the gorge drops down. EVEN if they have clogs that allow them to sit further back in the vent.
QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 27 2013, 02:58 PM) »Dude, WildChicken is a billion times better than you. Don't bother.
My point exactly.
The idea of competitive games being oh so different to public ones is propogated by these mindless fan boys, who think whatever they are told to.
Let me get this right, you've never seen me play, who don't know what my ingame nick is, you don't know what servers I play on, yet you make this claim and seek to call me the presumptuous one?
See what logic you can scrounge together, and tell me that that makes sense.
I don't think competitive games are different because I'm told that way. It's stupid to assume that we just believe what we're told or something. We get our opinions based on experience. We've played in public matches as well as competitive.
If you feel like you've been wronged in his assumption that you aren't a good player.. why don't you submit some NS1/NS2 footage.. that can be captured locally.. and without any issue of "location".
This is off topic however.. I'd just like to say in regards to Veil it comes down to a couple things for me.
1) Marines need PGs quite early to win. Making certain areas more accessible without it may alleviate that or maybe not. I like the different play style anyways, it can just be really unforgiving if Marines do lose a gate without another in place.
2) NanoGrid is hard to crack once taken by either team.
3) Pipeline Hive is very cost inefficient to get to NanoGrid without first taking Cargo.
QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Jan 25 2013, 10:17 PM) »the only reason that marines keep loosing on veil is because they dont understand the significance of nanogrid, i've had people complaining about my strategy of 'double first, double fast' who think its a waste of time, it isn't, its the most central part of the map AND it gives you 2 res towers for your troubles, if you can get and hold double, you can win even without second level tech because of the ammount of map control it cedes to the owner of either team. get nano and win, leave nano and lose. nano is WAY underated in veil.
Except for in many cases, including the one I outlined above...
I agree that nano is important, but I think the key significance of nano is knowing when to leave it alone if you've not got it early. If you don't get nano, you have to secure a tech point near nano. Which means sub because cargo is just horrible. Then you can work on denying nano, and pushing cargo to corner the aliens into a corner of the map with no res points...
Getting nano isn't the only thing that wins veil for either team.
Why is cargo horrible? If you take cargo, you effectively deny the aliens sub/pipe (whichever one they aren't in) and Nano (can't cyst except through the extremely vulnerable c12/system.) You basically have them locked down to 1 tech and at most 2 res simply by taking and holding a single tech point..
OK cargo is a little easy for aliens to attack, but since you have them locked to 1 hive it means no bile bomb, meanwhile you have map control. Aliens only hope after that is to rush cargo with skulks.
Comments
Now why is ns2_fail Marine-sided? Because you simply have to control a few areas and essentially have the entire map locked down with the Aliens strangled. When I command, I usually have everyone run to Nano IMMEDIATELY. This is two-fold. It is simply one of the most powerful locations on the map to hold, especially for Marines. Fail can break down into only a few scenarios and it happens over and over again:
A) Aliens start in Sub; Marines rush Nano > research PG and Mines > drop RTs/Armory > drop PG > push to Cargo > win by attrition.
B) Aliens start in Pipe; Marines rush Nano > research PG and Mines > drop RTs/Armory > drop PG > push to Cargo > win by attrition.
C) Aliens start in Cargo (ideal); Marines rush Nano or Sub;
==If Sub > fortify as per usual > push to Nano > If entrenched already, ARCs from West > push Cargo > fortify Nano and Cargo > win by attrition.
==If Nano > see A and B > push to Sub > push to Cargo > if entrenched, fortify Y-Junction > win by attrition.
D) Marines mess around with Skylights and Topographic > Failure.
I see the above scenarios happen the majority of the time, with the focal point almost always being on Nano for both Aliens and Marines. The problem is, unlike other maps that have double resource rooms, is that Nanogrid is also strategically critical. One could argue that's the entire point, but rooms such as Mineshaft's Central can be a wash for Marines if they control three TPs. This brings me to my point of this map being horrible for lacking a fifth TP all in an effort to remain "faithful" to the original map design. I realize if this were to be implemented it would result in the dreaded "cartwheel" map, but such is mapping when there is no Y-axis to play with.
<b>TL;DR: ns2_fail needs a fifth TP in order to be considered remotely competitive.</b>
The point, as I so frequently and pointlessly try to make, is that this is not counter-strike. The so called "competitive" teams did not rise to their position through combating thousands of other, similar groups, whom they defeated. Instead this is NS2, where the competitive teams are simply people who decided they would make a clan. If you know how to play NS2, and you live in America or central Europe, you can make a clan right now and be called competitive the first time Hugh or Wasabi says something about a game you played in. Wow, what a steep barrier to entry.
Also, going from my last paragraph, I often find it hilarious that competitive players in NS2 so frequently hide behind the fact that someone else has not been in a game commentated by Hugh or Wasabi (the defining feature of competitive games). This is because the only reason someone who plays NS2 isn't in a competitive team is because he either doesn't live in America or Central Europe, or because he just doesn't want to.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[Offtopic]
I was never talking about the teams that were just put together and practice once every 2 weeks, they're not what comes to my mind when speaking of competitive. I guess that was a bit of miscommunication.
You're more than welcome to put together 6 of your "competitive" players and give any of the top teams a run for their money, we'd appreciate the challenge. As it stands, we (Mercury) are placed high enough in the tournaments we play in that I dare say we are at the top of NS2 play. And regardless of what you might think about the difference between competitive and public play, there are things that are impressively strong in one setting and weak in the other. Mines and fades come to mind.
Why would comments from Hugh or Wasabi be the defining feature for a competitive team?
At the end of the day, all I'm saying is that you should stop making baseless assumptions on what happens at the top level based on what goes on in public play.
[/offtopic]
Hehehehehe
Also, I've never heard of you, but lets say you are "at the top" of NS2 play. In fact, lets be super optimistic, and say that you are the third best NS2 clan in the world. I would say there must be arroouund 20 or so clans that actually even play NS2, or regularly engage in matches against other clans. Lets be nice again and say that only 50% of these clans are simply bad, or just partake for the lulz, and therefore need not be included. That would then put your 3rd best clan in the top 70th percentile of people who attempt to play competitively.
That isn't very good bro...
Even if you were Archea, your players would, in the best case, be spread among the top 90th percentile, which also isn't very good. The only way for you to prove to me that you are good enough to make an astounding and quite inconceivable difference to the game is if you were in the top fraction of a percentile. Without that, nothing you say carries any weight. Its like being in the highest grade of primary school, just waiting to be the lowest rung at highschool.
Let me make up and throw in random, inaccurate, erroneous numbers and statistics about competitive play, which, as my entire post suggests, is something that I have no idea about, and then use those numbers to back up my opinion about something I still have no idea about.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I fixed it for you.
Please strofix, you're only making a fool out of yourself.
Also, I've never heard of you, but lets say you are "at the top" of NS2 play. In fact, lets be super optimistic, and say that you are the third best NS2 clan in the world. I would say there must be arroouund 20 or so clans that actually even play NS2, or regularly engage in matches against other clans. Lets be nice again and say that only 50% of these clans are simply bad, or just partake for the lulz, and therefore need not be included. That would then put your 3rd best clan in the top 70th percentile of people who attempt to play competitively.
That isn't very good bro...
Even if you were Archea, your players would, in the best case, be spread among the top 90th percentile, which also isn't very good. The only way for you to prove to me that you are good enough to make an astounding and quite inconceivable difference to the game is if you were in the top fraction of a percentile. Without that, nothing you say carries any weight. Its like being in the highest grade of primary school, just waiting to be the lowest rung at highschool.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
not sure if troll....
If not you should REALLY stop here before it gets even more embarrassing...
What I don't like:
1) Long-ass walks, for BOTH sides. The paths that I usually want to take are often meandering all over the place.
2) I am god-damn tired of playing whack-a-mole duty on marines. Combine this with point 1, and I have literally given up on Skylights and Topographical. It's a long walk from spawn, but not long enough to warrant a phase gate. Sigh...
3) Did I mention that I hate the walking?
I'm an embarrassingly average pub player, and <i>even I</i> have heard of mercury ;)
Roo
My point exactly.
The idea of competitive games being oh so different to public ones is propogated by these mindless fan boys, who think whatever they are told to.
Let me get this right, you've never seen me play, who don't know what my ingame nick is, you don't know what servers I play on, yet you make this claim and seek to call me the presumptuous one?
See what logic you can scrounge together, and tell me that that makes sense.
<!--quoteo(post=2067355:date=Jan 27 2013, 03:18 PM:name=Therius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Therius @ Jan 27 2013, 03:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I fixed it for you.
Please strofix, you're only making a fool out of yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's a tip, to prevent you from making yourself look like a fool. In the company of gentlemen and scholars, rather than among dimwits and dolts, people can quite quickly identify an ad hominem, even if it is dressed up as some sort of pseudo-logic retort. Therefore, if someone does truly make up baseless figures out of thin air, attack the figures. Simply say "well as you can see here from this data, there are in fact X number of competing NS2 clans, not Y as you claim". Anybody can call out an assumption buy saying that it isn't 100% provable. You need to show that my approximation is way off, and I don't think that you can.
hth
The idea of competitive games being oh so different to public ones is propogated by these mindless fan boys, who think whatever they are told to.
Let me get this right, you've never seen me play, who don't know what my ingame nick is, you don't know what servers I play on, yet you make this claim and seek to call me the presumptuous one?
See what logic you can scrounge together, and tell me that that makes sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You claim fades get slaughtered by marines, something that quite simply isn't true. Statements like these are what we base our presumptions about you on.
Brb, going through the "fades are weak" threads to fine just a single competitive player's post.
<!--quoteo(post=2050615:date=Dec 24 2012, 01:01 PM:name=wiry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wiry @ Dec 24 2012, 01:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050615"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->100 armor without carapace and making sure the animations work properly so that you at least have a chance to dodge the marine attacks.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's competitive isn't he? Maybe I'm wrong, the name just seems familiar. Tell me if he isn't so I can remove this while I look for more.
And as you can see, you're still not backing your figures, you're just attacking me attacking you, making us both idiots. But the difference is, that my point was to point out that you're a dimwit whereas your point was to... hell, I have no idea what your point was apart from being completely wrong.
Anyway, figures. In the ENSL (http://www.ensl.org/) league, there are 5 divisions with 2 groups each, and with an average of 5-6 teams per group, which means that there were about 60 competing teams in the first season of ENSL, and that's in Europe alone. They have a separate league for NA and Australia as well.
Also, your argument about percentiles is a complete moot point. Skill doesn't follow percentiles when talking about a small game, I have no proof to back this claim, but every single player in the top 80 percentile and even lower is a god in the game compared to your average public player. I actually laughed aloud when you claimed that everything one says can be disregarded if he's not at the top fraction of a percentile of the competitive scene.
Also, your ultra-positive assumptions about Chicken's clan were not positive enough, Mercury might very well be the BEST clan in NS2 after a few weeks. Check the ENSL finals at Cologne, it's Archaea vs. Mercury.
... wtf did I just read?
Could have phrased that better.
The point of my maybe-too-witty-and-aggressive post was to point out that you can't just go about making figures off the top of your head and base all your claims on said figures. My point was never to actually correct his figures, but to point out the general flaw in his statements that he just made everything up. Instead of proceeding to back his made-up figures with actual sources, he said the equivalent of "you can't attack me making these figures up, you must first dig the real figures from somewhere". I didn't dig any statistics up, because everybody knows those figures are off, and that he more or less admitted it himself in his post with phrases like "let's say" "I would say there are..." "let's be nice and say..." etc.
I just wanted to point out how ridiculous he sounded with that post, not actually disprove his figures, which everyone knows are off.
Cliche strategy. State that you aren't trying to show something is wrong, and then add that everyone already knows it is wrong. You are at the highest tier of psuedo-intellectuality. God job sir.
Either way, this tangent has become too destructive. Maybe I simply feel that competitive players are undeserving because it has always annoyed me that I am so good, but live in a location which makes me unable to demonstrate it. It almost makes me want to join international servers again, to perhaps come up against someone that isn't a walkover. We obviously won't agree, so lets leave it at this
I'm wrong because I have never played competitive and don't know what I'm talking about
You're wrong because you're biased and want to believe that your level means something
Could you please direct me to the page on the ensl site where it shows all currently active clans. As you can tell, I clearly have no idea how many there are, and would like to find out. Thanks.
Look at the 'previous contests' list, since the regular season has already gone, you'll find all the teams from their division and group. Most, if not all, of those teams are still active, since inactive clans have been removed from the division groups during the season.
I do admit that it's an extremely small game with a tiny competitive player scene. Only makes the difference between public and competitive gameplay much larger, though, I think.
There is a good selection of recent comp matches that showcase this. I'd suggest the following:
ENSL SF - Archaea vs Duplex: <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/talutha/b/359243759" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/talutha/b/359243759</a>
ENSL SF - Inversion vs All-In: <a href="http://www.twitch.tv/virsoul/b/359352626" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/virsoul/b/359352626</a>
FNSM - Breakfast Klub vs Damage Networks:
<a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360704009" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360704009</a>
<a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360725505" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360725505</a>
<a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360731754" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360731754</a> (watch this as it has the craziest ending I've ever seen in a comp match)
<a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360737155" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360737155</a>
<a href="http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360745608" target="_blank">http://www.twitch.tv/naturalselection2/b/360745608</a>
Roo
(PS haven't played competitively since Kingpin over a decade ago, but I was in the top UK clan in that game!)
The stats show that Veil is no more alien-biased in pub play than any other map. Putting aside the differences between pub balance and competitive balance, which are many, Veil does have some general design issues for NS2 gameplay. I don't claim to know enough about map design to know how to fix it, but I hope that the team will consider potentially drastic changes if they prove necessary. I don't think there's a need to preserve a picture-perfect copy of the NS1 layout. It's Veil as long as it has all the iconic rooms and their general position relative to eachother, but the details like how close together they are, how they connect to eachother, where the RTs are, etc etc aren't really important IMO.
You say marines can't take nano early game (which is wrong but not my point), then you go on to say it's because of gorge bile bomb? I don't know about you, but I really have my work put out for me when I go for bile bomb at 2 minutes.
Also, again you're wrong, marines can actually shoot gorges in the back vents if they stand back down the hallway's entering nano, they can nick the top of the gorges and eventually kill them unless the gorge drops down. EVEN if they have clogs that allow them to sit further back in the vent.
I don't think competitive games are different because I'm told that way. It's stupid to assume that we just believe what we're told or something. We get our opinions based on experience. We've played in public matches as well as competitive.
If you feel like you've been wronged in his assumption that you aren't a good player.. why don't you submit some NS1/NS2 footage.. that can be captured locally.. and without any issue of "location".
This is off topic however.. I'd just like to say in regards to Veil it comes down to a couple things for me.
1) Marines need PGs quite early to win. Making certain areas more accessible without it may alleviate that or maybe not. I like the different play style anyways, it can just be really unforgiving if Marines do lose a gate without another in place.
2) NanoGrid is hard to crack once taken by either team.
3) Pipeline Hive is very cost inefficient to get to NanoGrid without first taking Cargo.
Why is cargo horrible? If you take cargo, you effectively deny the aliens sub/pipe (whichever one they aren't in) and Nano (can't cyst except through the extremely vulnerable c12/system.) You basically have them locked down to 1 tech and at most 2 res simply by taking and holding a single tech point..
OK cargo is a little easy for aliens to attack, but since you have them locked to 1 hive it means no bile bomb, meanwhile you have map control. Aliens only hope after that is to rush cargo with skulks.