Hive Evolves
Calego
Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181848Members, NS2 Map Tester
Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181848Members, NS2 Map Tester
<div class="IPBDescription">First Hive thoughts.</div>Alrighty I know this is probably a constant debate, but being fairly new to this whole thing and never having heard full sides from each, I'm curious.
First Hive evolutions, what are the arguments for each?
I did use the forum search, but it didn't come up with any current threads about this, so if there is one, please direct me to it and I apologize. Assume I'm talking about pub matches, unless I say otherwise.
Here's so far what I've gathered:
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Shade</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> - The big line I hear a lot is "If you have people who know what they're doing, shade is great." So I'd like to know what this means, if anyone knows.
<b><i>Pros:</i></b> Early Cloaking, makes sneaking up on marines expanding easier, thus enabling a more versatile range of ambushes. Works best with highly coordinated teams attacking/ambushing in packs. Early game scans are "too costly" for the marine comm to be using constantly to counter the cloaking.
Allows shades, which can mask the presence of a second hive from an unsuspecting marine team.
I was in a (pub) game once where we as marines were completely locked down by cloaked skulks camping the fringes of our obs range. It was disheartening, but I get the feeling that if the comm had been using scan at least a bit, it would have helped.
<b><i>Cons:</i></b> Can be "easily" countered by experienced players who listen for the skulks (maybe?) and/or observatories combined with scans. If the plan does fail, marines have a fairly easy time swatting down the otherwise un-upgraded skulks and secure a fair chunk of map. Also, assuming that you are unable to secure the third hive, your higher life forms will be weaker due to the absence of either Shift or Crag upgrades.
Cloaking, esp in pub, reinforces the mentality of playing "defense" rather than attacking the marines, which is what the alien team early game is all about (?).
Every time I personally have been in a match where the alien comm has gone shade first, we fail miserably. I may have just been having bad times, bad teams, or something else entirely.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Shift</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> - Popular in a lot of the games I've played.
<i><b>Pros:</b></i> Early Celerity, helps skulks get places faster from spawn and thus control/respond to the marine movements faster. Also helps build speed for the initial rush into a fight and for the rush out of a fight. Great help to early lerks.
Shift also allows the building of shifts that will a)help spawn eggs if you get egg locked early cause your skulks are less than ideal at staying alive and b) help the nice gorge heal up the second hive you drop with the constant flow of energy.
<i><b>Cons:</b></i> - If the marines know how to aim well, a faster skulk is still a dead skulk, just a little closer to the marines' feet. Celerity reinforces the mentality that the skulks can just charge in and cause they're moving faster, will be invincible until they are close enough to the marine to kill them, rather than the constant ambush tactics that the aliens should use (?).
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Crag</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> - A couple pro matches I've watched have gone crag first and it is interesting.
<i><b>Pros:</b></i> Early regen, excellent choice for the ambush tactics that skulks probably should employ. Also keeps lerks in the fight longer as well. Helps aliens say alive longer, rather than aiding them in recovering from death. Also the possibility for carapace, which I'm not sure of its effectiveness on skulks.
Allows crags, which will also help keep the second hive alive and heal it up to full health quickly.
<i><b>Cons:</b></i> Players have to actually use the ambush tactics and know when to retreat. Skulks without knowledge of walljumping will move slower to the scenes of battle.
SO, thoughts, comments, help?
First Hive evolutions, what are the arguments for each?
I did use the forum search, but it didn't come up with any current threads about this, so if there is one, please direct me to it and I apologize. Assume I'm talking about pub matches, unless I say otherwise.
Here's so far what I've gathered:
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Shade</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> - The big line I hear a lot is "If you have people who know what they're doing, shade is great." So I'd like to know what this means, if anyone knows.
<b><i>Pros:</i></b> Early Cloaking, makes sneaking up on marines expanding easier, thus enabling a more versatile range of ambushes. Works best with highly coordinated teams attacking/ambushing in packs. Early game scans are "too costly" for the marine comm to be using constantly to counter the cloaking.
Allows shades, which can mask the presence of a second hive from an unsuspecting marine team.
I was in a (pub) game once where we as marines were completely locked down by cloaked skulks camping the fringes of our obs range. It was disheartening, but I get the feeling that if the comm had been using scan at least a bit, it would have helped.
<b><i>Cons:</i></b> Can be "easily" countered by experienced players who listen for the skulks (maybe?) and/or observatories combined with scans. If the plan does fail, marines have a fairly easy time swatting down the otherwise un-upgraded skulks and secure a fair chunk of map. Also, assuming that you are unable to secure the third hive, your higher life forms will be weaker due to the absence of either Shift or Crag upgrades.
Cloaking, esp in pub, reinforces the mentality of playing "defense" rather than attacking the marines, which is what the alien team early game is all about (?).
Every time I personally have been in a match where the alien comm has gone shade first, we fail miserably. I may have just been having bad times, bad teams, or something else entirely.
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Shift</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> - Popular in a lot of the games I've played.
<i><b>Pros:</b></i> Early Celerity, helps skulks get places faster from spawn and thus control/respond to the marine movements faster. Also helps build speed for the initial rush into a fight and for the rush out of a fight. Great help to early lerks.
Shift also allows the building of shifts that will a)help spawn eggs if you get egg locked early cause your skulks are less than ideal at staying alive and b) help the nice gorge heal up the second hive you drop with the constant flow of energy.
<i><b>Cons:</b></i> - If the marines know how to aim well, a faster skulk is still a dead skulk, just a little closer to the marines' feet. Celerity reinforces the mentality that the skulks can just charge in and cause they're moving faster, will be invincible until they are close enough to the marine to kill them, rather than the constant ambush tactics that the aliens should use (?).
<!--sizeo:4--><span style="font-size:14pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Crag</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--> - A couple pro matches I've watched have gone crag first and it is interesting.
<i><b>Pros:</b></i> Early regen, excellent choice for the ambush tactics that skulks probably should employ. Also keeps lerks in the fight longer as well. Helps aliens say alive longer, rather than aiding them in recovering from death. Also the possibility for carapace, which I'm not sure of its effectiveness on skulks.
Allows crags, which will also help keep the second hive alive and heal it up to full health quickly.
<i><b>Cons:</b></i> Players have to actually use the ambush tactics and know when to retreat. Skulks without knowledge of walljumping will move slower to the scenes of battle.
SO, thoughts, comments, help?
Comments
If we saw that resources harvested in games where aliens took celerity before carapace were, on average, 19% greater, then we would be able to say definitively that shift hive is ideal for resource gain. Perhaps on the other hand we would see that the second hive had 30% less chance of dying within the first 10 minutes of a game if the aliens chose crag first, we would know for sure that it would be a superior choice against highly offensive marines.
Even from a personal preference point of view, it can be difficult to tell which one is preferable because, unlike NS1, the person making the decision of which hive to choose first is the one least affected by the choice. That is to say that, the active abilities of the chambers don't come into play (or shouldn't if everything is going well) until well into the mid to late game. There are exceptions, and these exceptions are what largely determine which is seen as superior.
For example, in competitive play highly offensive marine play is preferred which often results in a shortage of eggs for skulks to spawn from. As such, for quite a while shift was the preferred choice, to provide emergency eggs as well as a more steady production of them. In my opinion, in pub games, crags are the only structures which can see an immediate early game use in securing the second hive, and getting it to 100% health sooner, therefore I choose it.
True, but how many games have you played in where the commander implemented this effective strategy before two upgrades were already up? I mean, its risky enough having harvesters out in the field, but a shift in an unprotected location is highly vulnerable. Excluding that vulnerability cost, spending 5 resources for 2 eggs is highly prohibitive, and each wave will just extend the time before the second hive is dropped. This is why I said the commander has little interaction with his upgraes in the early game. The cost is typically just too prohibitive.
I do this all the time and it works almost every time. It's not so vulnerable when you consider the fact that Aliens are constantly spawning from it and if they are doing their job properly and harassing the marines, they will not be pushing you anyway. 5 res to give Aliens such a close spawn point to the Marines is laughable. I pump out a dozen eggs without beating an eyelash. The amount of time it delays the second hive is negligible for the amount of map control it gives. If anything too many Alien commanders drop a second hive too early without map control and start screaming when Marines waltz in and start shooting it. It's not like Aliens have anything better to spend their res on once Celerity drops. If anything 5 res for eggs is still way too cheap for what it does.
I'm highly skeptical about the feasibility of spending in excess of 30 resources on forward egg spawns before the 5-6 minute mark. Especially since having only shift upgrades against anything higher than level 1 weapons will cause you to haemorrhage territory at a rapid rate.
that being, shift is always second... so by 5/6 minute mark you can have 2nd hive going which makes its choice early not as bad. shade however is always last chosen (in any comp match) and therefore bad for 5th through 20th minute of most games.
good players almost exclusively go crag hive first. You can spawn all the shift eggs you want (and waste a ton of resources in doing so), but carapace is the single best upgrade to allow aliens to actually win engagements against non-###### marines. Shift is incredibly overrated as a hive upgrade
Do these good players tend to rush the upgrade very early, or secure 2 harvesters first before researching the crag hive, shell and then carapace, out of interest?
I was trying to watch one of the ENSL games the other lunch time, but the feed was really slow and it was unwatchable (on my work's 100Mb up/down connection!).
Roo
Shift/celerity allows aliens to move trough the map faster, makes them harder to hit wich increases survivability. Also alows the alien commander to quickly jump off the hive and reach someplace to help defendind.
The shifts itself allows for a foward "egg spawning" position wich maintains pressure on a spot, or defense on a another, and regens energy to a gorge thats healing skulks/stuff
A good celerity lerk is almost unstopable by this time of the game. (
By the time I drop the second hive is the time my team is thinking on evolving to fades wich makes carapace essencial, and i already have adrenaline by now.
I was trying to watch one of the ENSL games the other lunch time, but the feed was really slow and it was unwatchable (on my work's 100Mb up/down connection!).
Roo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally like to jump in the hive the second the game starts, research crag hive, hop out, go gorge, jump back in, drop the shell, jump out, heal it up, and then research cara. Its overall affect on the game is arguable, but it does mean that, if the team cooperates, the very first skulk vs marine encounter is hideously skewed in the favor of the skulk.
I was trying to watch one of the ENSL games the other lunch time, but the feed was really slow and it was unwatchable (on my work's 100Mb up/down connection!).
Roo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was watching that ESNL semi final that was posted on this forum the other day. In those 5? games both teams went crag first every time and got carapace early. Second hive was always shift and then fast celerity. Not sure I even saw adrenaline or regen researched once.
And also pretty sure they didnt built any shifts. The only structure besides hives and harvesters and a few select upgrades I saw was some crags to defend hives.
Its interesting to see how careful the pro khammanders are about spending team res. They mostly save for lifeform drops, but on the other hand the marines are constantly killing their harvesters so its a struggle to get enough team res.
A lot of "Camo sucks, why did you go Camo, Noob Comm!!! Eject!!!" results from Comms researching Camo *way* too late (like when Marines already have 3 bases secured with Obs). The point of Camo is to deny and delay Marine expansion as much as possible, so it is needed early.
Timing wise, it is like this:
<ul><li> The earlier your Camo, the more useful it is.</li><li> Celerity is the medium-timing upgrade. It's nice, but does not give too much of an actual <b>fighting</b> advantage.</li><li> Carapace is a great upgrade. If it takes a lot of time for the first upgrade (e.g. Comm gets a lot of Harvesters first), then often it is useful to skip Celerity and go right for Carapace, as Marines will have weapon upgrades.</li></ul>
And a last thing: please <b>never</b> go Crag Hive last! Fades and Onoses (and Skulks) are *very* vulnerable without Carapace. Your second (or first) Hive should be Crag so you don't get denied Carapace when you can't get the 3rd Hive.
Strong Alien team / Weak Marine team= Shift. Get some eggs down on the front lines to keep up the pressure whilst you slow build a 2nd Hive behind. No skulk upgrades immediately.
Weak Alien team / Strong Marine team = Crag. Fast regen/cara depending on play style - hit and run or to the death. Fast heal 2nd hive with additional crags.
Of course, if you have a Gorge with either Shift/Crag, you can save a lot of additional TRes from structures.
I will <b>never</b> go Shade for three reasons:
1) The benefit of cloaking units or Shades is negated very quickly once they know... either by more scans or more Obs.
2) In later game it's important to be able to drop Crags/Shifts in forward positions- you really notice when you can't use both.
3) Possibly the biggest reason why I would never go Shade first. In the majority of balanced games, Aliens won't get the 3rd Hive up. By denying your advanced lifeforms (Lerk / Fade) both Crag and Shift upgrades is FATAL.
If you ask someone what upgrades they prefer on their Lerk / Fade, they will say "Adren/Regen", or "Cara/Celery", or "Adren/Cara", etc. - by denying someone these you severly hamper the whole team, and your advanced lifeforms will go down very quickly.
I've never asked someone what upgrades they prefer on their Fade, only for them to say "Camo".
As I see it, Shade upgrades are an aid to allow a winning Alien side to finish off a turtling Marine team. Add Silence so you can hear beacons/reloads/footsteps, or use Camo so you can get in closer without losing health - important for an Onos to take out a Power Node amongst 5+ Marines. Shade upgrades are a bonus for being a good team. Heh.
There was even a time where I went Crag first with Regen upgrade and the players were asking me if I was serious because it was a public game with public players and that you could only pull such a thing off in clan matches. I then went Shade on the second Hive for some nice synergy with Regen, so we could hold territory long enough to push out the higher lifeforms.
Shift first in public games is the expected and most common thing, that's why many marine commanders only know a build order that relates to that situation. I've seen many marine commanders, who considered themselves quite good at commanding, fail to adapt to a different alien strategy.
If aliens go Crag first, you don't need Phase Tech immediately to keep up with the usual speed and map control advantage that Shift establishes. Instead, you need to focus your early resources on an Arms Lab with Weapons I, 'cause otherwise your marines will lose most encounters because it's really hard to take a carapaced Skulk down in just a single magazine if you miss only a few bullets (which will inevitably happen in pub games). It also becomes much harder to tear an alien expansion with Crags down.
Letting your troops win battles constantly is in this case better than just rushing them all through Phase Gates to die in combat.
If aliens go Shade first, the Phase Tech might have to wait as well in favour of Armor upgrades so marines have a chance to survive the first close encounters. Marines should then try to get as many Extractors built as possible and get enough resources to afford plenty of scans. Aliens that are attacking the Extractors will be visible and thus don't profit from their Camouflage, making them easier to take out. After that it's a run to either lock aliens down in their base with the help of constant scans and marines on all exists or to secure at least two more tech points and put Observatories everywhere near choke points and base entrances.
Celerity is also only so good in combat. As soon as a bullet hits the Skulk, it will slow down because it is then considered "in combat". It only works out if marines are bad shots and you can dodge bullets long enough to get to them. Crag upgrades are more supportive to win confrontations early on, Shift is only there to get aliens where they are needed since they lose confrontations more often and have to retreat to the Hive for heals.
Once you get Leap out, Regeneration becomes amazing on Skulks. My combat tactic then often boils down to jumping into a group of marines, place some glancing bites here and then and let them waste their ammo on me and then leap around long enough for Regeneration to kick in and give me effectively way more HP than Carapace would. Rinse and repeat until the marines are dead.
In large pub games (10v10++) you usually need shift first soley because if your team is not that great you will get egg locked and lose the game. Its also really helpful to force your less experienced teams to go where you want them to go with shifts. This is an issue that UWE should definitely try to fix as its really dumbing down alien commanding in large pubs.
You can try shade in pubs and I personally find it extremely fun since its so rare - i am skeptical of peoples claim that all the newbs just sit in camo and do nothing all game, not to many people do this in my experience. The problem is camo can be countered by a combination of scans and teamwork, and leaves your lifeforms weak offensively without a shift hive if you are unable to secure a 3rd hive (which you won't in most even games).
Paired with Leap, I can jump around everywhere in a battle and give the marines a hard time to find me because there is no audio cue that would tell them where I landed, so they have to turn around and search "manually".
I'm seeing early carapace as a very viable alternative to the "standard" celerity. I also very much appreciate the Marine counters to various alien tactics, CrushaK.
I think I'll be trying some of these suggestions out in matches I'm in in the future.
Basically so far we seem to have come up with:
Shade is a good option if and only if your team can steamroll them within the first few minutes. Or else if you can keep them shut down long enough to set up and secure three (?) hive locations. Which we seem to agree is not easy and thus not the greatest for most pub matches.
Shift is overrated in most cases because a lot of people don't realize that the speed boost is only for getting to combat, not during combat. The egg spawning in a forward location can indeed be extremely useful to put added pressure on a marine team struggling to overcome your skulks. Shifts placed in a second hive location are extremely useful for spawning eggs to defend the growing hive. "Best choice" against marine teams who really can't hit much to start with, and this will only make it more difficult and will keep constant pressure on them.
Crag is a very viable alternative to shift, as an Early carapace can greatly assist your skulks in overwhelming marines, even if the marines can aim decently. This in addition to crags placed at hives to heal them up and keep them healed up, make it another good choice. "Best choice" against marine teams who are quickly shooting down your skulks immediately.
If a khamm ever goes fast shade I will always forcefully insist on silence over camo as it encourages offensive gameplay moreso than camo.
Tbh one of my favourite skulk builds is silence+regen+adrenaline/leap - leap and walljumping compensates for no cele, EXCEPT adrenaline gives you the ability to leap around very quickly IN BATTLE which is what celerity does not allow you to do- you can leap with cele obviously but only a couple of times ;)
Silence over camo for the aforementioned advantages.
Regen encourages hit-and-run tactics which are just generally good practice. Lets you double team with other skulks whilst increasing long-term survivability.
And yet, the above build is very rare because none of these attributes are viable by themselves in the early-game :(
Silence requires better skulks imo.
I go Shift if too many skulks are dying to keep eggs on the board.
Crag is good but I dont feel early game aliens benefit that much from cara.
Shift is awesome for early game because besides having celerity you can claim any hive by building a shift there. If you have 2 gorges defending the shift position, marines wil have a very, very hard time getting this position cleared out. Also, gorges can build the following hive very quickly, so that you dont have to wait so long for cara as you'd have to wait for cele with crag first...
The benefit of camo is that it reduces the impact of good marine players in exchange for increasing the impact of a good comm. If you are a good marine versus a terrible alien chances are you lose against camo without scans.
What makes this OP is that people who can shoot well vastly outnumber good comms and even the people who comm well dont want to do it most of the time as its a thankless, stressful and boring task.
Its good to avoid if you have the good luck of being able to avoid it. However silence means that you cannot directly attack advancing marines. Camouflage allows you to until scanned, but scan beats silence and camouflage.
If a khamm ever goes fast shade I will always forcefully insist on silence over camo as it encourages offensive gameplay moreso than camo.
Tbh one of my favourite skulk builds is silence+regen+adrenaline/leap - leap and walljumping compensates for no cele, EXCEPT adrenaline gives you the ability to leap around very quickly IN BATTLE which is what celerity does not allow you to do- you can leap with cele obviously but only a couple of times ;)
Silence over camo for the aforementioned advantages.
Regen encourages hit-and-run tactics which are just generally good practice. Lets you double team with other skulks whilst increasing long-term survivability.
And yet, the above build is very rare because none of these attributes are viable by themselves in the early-game :(<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Indeed do I often choose Silence over Camouflage when I go Shade first. The problem is that Gorges benefit much more from Camouflage, since it allows them to stay out of fights if they are getting problems and can then heal their team once the situation is cleared again. So I still end up researching Camo for the Gorges.
Ideally I would allow Skulks to only go with Silence, but unfortunately this option doesn't exist for khamms. ;)
Large playercount, small map pubs = Choice of either shift/celerity or crag/cara (egg-lock is your main concern so you can either go shift to spawn more eggs or cara to increase survivability)
Stuff like camo, silence, or regen first typically require either enough competent alien players or incompetent marine players to succeed.
WORD.
If you're going camo, you need to evolve it, drop it, research it without ANY DELAY. Camo is not a tool for gaining ground, it's a tool for keeping it.
With little luck marines won't even have an obs by the time all your skulks are camoed. Not to mention affording phasegate research after dropping 2 rt's AND scanning camo skulks. Dropping obs? Yeah right!
If you fail to keep marines res starved with camo right from the start, there's no point going camo anymore.
Personally I go every hive. None of them is horrible. I like camo because it's cheap, gives me nearly an extra RT at the start. Cara is so expensive. ;_;
I only play 8vs8ish because with 10vs10 you feel you're cornered into shift and cara because of the above. :x It's a bummer.
(Camo does increase survivability, but larger player counts make scans cover more players, thus being much more effective. :p )
New question, since at least 3 people said that the counter to camo is an attentive comm, what does this look like from the marine side? Assume the aliens went camo fast, what do you do as Marine comm to counter this? Spam obs and scan?
Pretty much. Any group of two or more marines you should give a scan, res-permitting. Its quite devastating since you know aliens are going to be slower (no celerity) and weaker (no cara) than they otherwise would be. Its typically more prudent to forgo some early tech/upgrades (e.g. shotguns, w/a upgrades, etc), because w0/a0 rifle marines can easily take out camo skulks provided you scan enough.