<!--quoteo(post=2066542:date=Jan 25 2013, 08:58 PM:name=Calego)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Calego @ Jan 25 2013, 08:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I did indeed fail to take into account the price of each upgrade line. I just assumed that they were all the same (Like I said, fairly new to all this). Now I can definitely see that they are quite different.
New question, since at least 3 people said that the counter to camo is an attentive comm, what does this look like from the marine side? Assume the aliens went camo fast, what do you do as Marine comm to counter this? Spam obs and scan?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's no such thing as camo counter really, scans cost money so you're just making a trade of sorts. Skulks don't become useless when camo is removed, just normal skulks. Also scans only last 10 seconds, (cost 3res), so it's hardly the end of the world...
Marine side the best shot from my experience is to rush phase/obs into 3 tech points. If the alien team is really good, just camp your team in 1 tech point with obs till you get phase and then get the third one.
If you manage that, aliens won't have a 3rd hive, meaning they'll be lacking cele/adren which is helpful endgame.
If aliens secure 3 hives with camo start, they've basically won the game.
But I've never commed against a decent camo team. I've only ever seen late camos, and then it's simply a matter of scanning around, since your rt's are already up, and you can't bite an rt while being invisible...
EDIT: I suppose it's worth mentioning I've also won 90% of all my (+15) shade hive games being alien comm. ...which is why it's always great having those "camo f*cking sucks" people on your team...
<!--quoteo(post=2066542:date=Jan 25 2013, 08:58 PM:name=Calego)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Calego @ Jan 25 2013, 08:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->New question, since at least 3 people said that the counter to camo is an attentive comm, what does this look like from the marine side? Assume the aliens went camo fast, what do you do as Marine comm to counter this? Spam obs and scan?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Immediately upgrade phase gates and lock down 2 additional tech rooms. Now the aliens have 2 potential hives, and one of them is a shade hive. That means GG.
<!--quoteo(post=2066558:date=Jan 25 2013, 09:17 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 25 2013, 09:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066558"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Immediately upgrade phase gates and lock down 2 additional tech rooms. Now the aliens have 2 potential hives, and one of them is a shade hive. That means GG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Aliens still got a shot, if they manage to lock you in those 3 bases and get all the rt's around the map. They'll just mass up Onoses before you get high tech, and overrun a base for their third.
<!--quoteo(post=2066558:date=Jan 25 2013, 02:17 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 25 2013, 02:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066558"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Immediately upgrade phase gates and lock down 2 additional tech rooms. Now the aliens have 2 potential hives, and one of them is a shade hive. That means GG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> you act as if shift hive is necessary at all late game (it isn't). Carapace is really the only upgrade that is absolutely essential for winning the game; adrenaline is handy for fades late game but not totally necessary. Every other upgrade is not terribly important
I'd go really in depth here, but I'll shorten it to just a few sentences.
The most efficient build order for Aliens in 100% of games is shift - crag - shade.
Shift is the most useful early game, and the most powerful overall when considering the shift structure itself is a swiss army knife not to mention all the other reasons people have put forward. The most important, to me, is that I can drop a shift near a second hive and have a gorge speed build it thereby unlocking Crag faster.
Crag comes to the forefront when you have higher life forms, which generally you won't have until your second hive is up anyway.
Shade is generally useless, but even if you consider it an amazing early game win button the downside is that you also are handing the Marines an easy win if it turns out they're highly competent. This is something some people will argue to death, so I'll just say it's my opinion and leave it at that.
This of course is not a <i>definitive</i> thing, as it's possible for anything to win depending on the respective skill of each team. That being said, Shift - Crag - Shade disregards any difference in skill that might present itself. It's equally effective versus very competent Marines and complete n00bs. Therein lies it's strength as an upgrade path.
<!--quoteo(post=2066664:date=Jan 25 2013, 04:38 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Jan 25 2013, 04:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066664"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd go really in depth here, but I'll shorten it to just a few sentences.
The most efficient build order for Aliens in 100% of games is shift - crag - shade.
Shift is the most useful early game, and the most powerful overall when considering the shift structure itself is a swiss army knife not to mention all the other reasons people have put forward. The most important, to me, is that I can drop a shift near a second hive and have a gorge speed build it thereby unlocking Crag faster.
Crag comes to the forefront when you have higher life forms, which generally you won't have until your second hive is up anyway.
Shade is generally useless, but even if you consider it an amazing early game win button the downside is that you also are handing the Marines an easy win if it turns out they're highly competent. This is something some people will argue to death, so I'll just say it's my opinion and leave it at that.
This of course is not a <i>definitive</i> thing, as it's possible for anything to win depending on the respective skill of each team. That being said, Shift - Crag - Shade disregards any difference in skill that might present itself. It's equally effective versus very competent Marines and complete n00bs. Therein lies it's strength as an upgrade path.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> carapace is the best upgrade for skulks to maintain map control early game against any competent marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2066675:date=Jan 25 2013, 03:46 PM:name=IAMKING)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IAMKING @ Jan 25 2013, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->carapace is the best upgrade for skulks to maintain map control early game against any competent marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not going to get drawn into a debate on this. You can think up an exception to any rule in NS2, and crag first is no different. It's a matter of personal preference, but I was just pointing out the most <i>efficient</i> build order. You can obviously do anything you please as commander.
In my opinion, requiring just a few more bullets to kill a skulk doesn't make much of a difference when the Marines can aim. If they can't aim, it obviously makes no difference whatsoever.
These are less of rules, and more of suggestions for pub play.
<!--quoteo(post=2066689:date=Jan 25 2013, 05:10 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Jan 25 2013, 05:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not going to get drawn into a debate on this. You can think up an exception to any rule in NS2, and crag first is no different. It's a matter of personal preference, but I was just pointing out the most <i>efficient</i> build order. You can obviously do anything you please as commander.
In my opinion, requiring just a few more bullets to kill a skulk doesn't make much of a difference when the Marines can aim. If they can't aim, it obviously makes no difference whatsoever.
These are less of rules, and more of suggestions for pub play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> there's a reason comp teams go almost exclusively carapace first. it is by far the most important upgrade in the game, and winning engagements is the most important thing for aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=2066689:date=Jan 25 2013, 04:10 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Jan 25 2013, 04:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->These are less of rules, and more of suggestions for pub play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2066699:date=Jan 25 2013, 04:20 PM:name=IAMKING)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IAMKING @ Jan 25 2013, 04:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there's a reason comp teams go <b>almost</b> exclusively carapace first. it is by far the most important upgrade in the game, and winning engagements is the most important thing for aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you sure we're talking about the same thing here King?
Oh, and what percentage is 'almost exclusively'? Or are you just throwing stuff out there?
Carapace for a skulk raises their armor from 10, to 30. That's what, four more bullets from a non-upgraded LMG? That equates to .4 seconds extra time to bite the Marine if he doesn't miss.
Maybe that's enough of a percentage to make a big difference in competitive play.
I'm not really debating this with you, I'm just curious if there are perhaps other reasons competitive teams would go carapace first. Somehow I have my doubts that it's purely for the skulks on the team, but rather for the Lerks that will no-doubt pop after a minute or two.
<!--quoteo(post=2066596:date=Jan 25 2013, 09:51 PM:name=IAMKING)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IAMKING @ Jan 25 2013, 09:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you act as if shift hive is necessary at all late game (it isn't). Carapace is really the only upgrade that is absolutely essential for winning the game; adrenaline is handy for fades late game but not totally necessary. Every other upgrade is not terribly important<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It sounds like you have never had to go Onos without celerity. An Exo vs an Onos without celerity, I doubt the Exo would even take a single hit. Onos are infeasibly slow by default, they are almost entirely useless without the speed boost celerity gives.
Similarly, gorges without adrenaline don't provide anywhere near the required support needed against marine structures, and for healing.
With the Gorge and the Onos taken out of the picture, aliens have essentially no late game capabilities. An alien team trying to beat back max tech marines with only crag and shade is a sorry sight to behold.
<!--quoteo(post=2066711:date=Jan 26 2013, 12:42 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Jan 26 2013, 12:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066711"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Carapace for a skulk raises their armor from 10, to 30. That's what, four more bullets from a non-upgraded LMG? That equates to .4 seconds extra time to bite the Marine if he doesn't miss.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2066739:date=Jan 26 2013, 01:34 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Jan 26 2013, 01:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066739"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That doesn't really shed any light on anything, but at least we roughly agree regarding the OP =P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well not that I agree that everyone goes crag, but.
The extended time required is based on the players average accuracy, not 100% accuracy. So the aditional 4 bullets required (13 up from 9) is merely a percentile increase on the average time it takes to kill a skulk, namely 45% longer. Then take into account that a longer encounter means the skulk gets closer to the target, and that accuracy decreases in melee range, you are actually looking at an increase in encounter length of, I would say, 55-60%.
<!--quoteo(post=2066748:date=Jan 26 2013, 01:44 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jan 26 2013, 01:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->strofix cele is removed in combat tho. :p (aka first hit you get...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not 100% sure that this is still true. Ok tested. Taking damage will never return you to baseline non celerity speed (though it will reduce your speed), and unlike using an attack such as bite or gore, there is absolutely no "cooldown" on celerity returning. That is to say that your speed will constantly be returning to its modified celerity value, even inbetween lmg bullets.
<!--quoteo(post=2066286:date=Jan 25 2013, 06:44 AM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Jan 25 2013, 06:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066286"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do these good players tend to rush the upgrade very early, or secure 2 harvesters first before researching the crag hive, shell and then carapace, out of interest?
I was trying to watch one of the ENSL games the other lunch time, but the feed was really slow and it was unwatchable (on my work's 100Mb up/down connection!).
Roo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most of the competitive matches I've seen, Leap was highly prioritized over the first hive upgrade. I don't remember the exact builds, but they were either: 1. Hive, rez, rez, rez, crag, shell, cara OR 2. Rez, rez, rez, hive, crag, shell cara
...and in either case leap was saved for to get it started as fast as possible (which I think happened before carapace? Not sure of the timing.)
Personally I don't like getting the hive before placing rez nodes (and especially in pub play where marines are cowards, I often place 5-7 nodes before saving for upgrade or hive because it earns the team a ridiculous amount of income,) but it feels viable unless you get choked off your nodes.
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=2066749:date=Jan 25 2013, 03:45 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 25 2013, 03:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not 100% sure that this is still true. Ok tested. Taking damage will never return you to baseline non celerity speed (though it will reduce your speed), and unlike using an attack such as bite or gore, there is absolutely no "cooldown" on celerity returning. That is to say that your speed will constantly be returning to its modified celerity value, even inbetween lmg bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There is a slight warmup period on celerity, but it has been reduced so much that it doesn't apply in many practical situations.
However, celerity's biggest benefit is that it allows skulks to transverse large portions of the map and close distance to marines faster. The area of control for each team is roughly a function of spawn time, spawn location, and movement speed (i.e. how far can a newly killed skulk or marine travel before encountering an enemy). The early speed boost provides a large jump in alien area of control until marines get up PGs.
<!--quoteo(post=2066749:date=Jan 26 2013, 01:45 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 26 2013, 01:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not 100% sure that this is still true. Ok tested. Taking damage will never return you to baseline non celerity speed (though it will reduce your speed), and unlike using an attack such as bite or gore, there is absolutely no "cooldown" on celerity returning. That is to say that your speed will constantly be returning to its modified celerity value, even inbetween lmg bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's interesting. I'd very much like further testing on this. As a gorge it feels like you hit a wall when you get hit and cele ends, also it takes ages to "get out of combat" and benefit from cele again.
<!--quoteo(post=2066735:date=Jan 25 2013, 06:30 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 25 2013, 06:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066735"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It sounds like you have never had to go Onos without celerity. An Exo vs an Onos without celerity, I doubt the Exo would even take a single hit. Onos are infeasibly slow by default, they are almost entirely useless without the speed boost celerity gives.
Similarly, gorges without adrenaline don't provide anywhere near the required support needed against marine structures, and for healing.
With the Gorge and the Onos taken out of the picture, aliens have essentially no late game capabilities. An alien team trying to beat back max tech marines with only crag and shade is a sorry sight to behold.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> celerity for an onos reduces to your base run or base charge speed VERY quickly after taking any damage (8.6 to 6.6 and 15.6 to 12, respectively). Onos are such large targets that they are always taking minor weapons fire. Celerity therefore has minimal use on an onos, and you're certainly not missing it very much if you know what you're doing.
Adrenaline is actually the second most important upgrade (particularly for gorges and fades), but to deem it absolutely necessary is foolish. Carapace is really the only upgrade you need for mid-late game, because it makes fades and onos viable instead of practically worthless.
<!--quoteo(post=2066765:date=Jan 26 2013, 02:13 AM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jan 26 2013, 02:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066765"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is a slight warmup period on celerity, but it has been reduced so much that it doesn't apply in many practical situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is after using a non mobility based ability, like bite or gore. There is absolutely no warmup after taking damage though, or if there is, its less than like 150ms.
<!--quoteo(post=2066929:date=Jan 26 2013, 03:38 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 26 2013, 03:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066929"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is after using a non mobility based ability, like bite or gore. There is absolutely no warmup after taking damage though, or if there is, its less than like 150ms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good to know for sure. If it doesn't have any effect on air speed that makes it even more negligible since skulks are jump happy fools.
To the guy saying that Gorges take forever to get back into celerity, it does feel that way. Bile bomb will pretty much lock you into slow boating unless you're a pro belly slider. This is probably a good thing, since there needs to be some downside to bile other than running dry on energy. It makes you save a bit of your tank for the slide away, if nothing else.
Another thing about Celerity, as long as you are dealing damage it doesn't turn on, so a Gorge Bilebombing or a Lerk doing DoT with bite/spores won't get celerity going again until that's stopped.
My interpretation is that generally, the best choice is shift-celerity, because every alien is better when it's faster. Shift-adrenaline I think is a bad choice because no lifeform benefits from it until you unlock extra abilities, at which point you can unlock adrenaline then.
Alternatively, crag-carapace is a good upgrade for the same reason, all aliens are better with more health, though as the actual point of health is to prevent death, and moving faster also prevents death, but also moves you faster, shift-celerity is generally a bit better than carapace. Carapace does however have the advantage of requiring zero skill to use, unlike celerity. Anyone will perform better with more health, celerity scales with your initial skill. Crag-regeneration is useful sometimes, but situationally so, I generally find that skulks are expendable enough not to need it (they tend to die outright or are so easily replaced that it doesn't matter if they heal) and gorges obviously don't need it. Gorges also add regen's benefit to the team and are a popular choice early on, so regen's utility is limited in the early game. Good for fades and good for onoses, but not so good for gorges and skulks. Possibly useful for lerks but you can't build a team around lerks.
Shade is.. kinda not great I think? Cloak is certainly a very powerful, or at least very game changing ability, but it is nullified entirely by observatories and scans, so it is less useful on the offense and unreliable in general combat. It is also what it sounds like, a game changer, which is to say it changes very much how your skulks play. If you can make use of the combat style and not succumb to being over-tentative, I can see it perhaps working? But generally your standard zerg rush of celerity skulks should hold you over until you can get something better. Cloaking is probably one of the best upgrades for skulks in terms of long-term viability, but you should be aiming for better lifeforms, and it is far less useful for lerks, somewhat useful for fades (though fades benefit far more from having adrenaline/carapace/regen/celerity) and for onoses it works but... it's a bloody onos, it isn't really supposed to be hiding, nor does it really need to.
Shade-silence is a possibility though, I see it as being a bit like celerity only specifically for being behind marines. Celerity gets you closer faster, silence gets you closer without being noticed. Both reduce the amount of time marines have to shoot you. Again it could work quite well I think in the right hands, but it has the same problems where it's not very useful for other lifeforms. Shade first sacrifices higher lifeforms for better skulks basically, I don't generally see that as a good trade.
I occasionally command either side, and I can honestly say I have very strict preferences.
If I see teams are stacked (usually the same team that just won easily previously), I'll go camo first because "I don't care, we're going to win anyway". Otherwise, I will never take camo first. Shift first is almost always my priority. Since I can usually get at least one person to dedicate themselves to Gorge, I can get them to build up the second hive with a shift next to it, and Celerity helps all of the skulks who don't know how to wall jump get across the map to where I need them. Crag is always my second hive if it isn't my first (on rare occasions).
I like Camo/Silence as the warning that the game is over for the marines. If a Cloaknos pops up around a corner and guts you, that's your warning to concede.
Plus, my favorite thing to do is spam eggs in a central location. When I can get my team to listen to me, I can almost always guarantee five harvesters in a match, which means a central location filled with eggs (my favorite place being Hub on Tram).
I have a huge bias against Camo first, however, and will generally leave an alien team if the khamm drops camo first, unless I have friends on the team.
<!--quoteo(post=2067907:date=Jan 28 2013, 10:06 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 28 2013, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My interpretation is that generally, the best choice is shift-celerity, because every alien is better when it's faster. Shift-adrenaline I think is a bad choice because no lifeform benefits from it until you unlock extra abilities, at which point you can unlock adrenaline then.
Alternatively, crag-carapace is a good upgrade for the same reason, all aliens are better with more health, though as the actual point of health is to prevent death, and moving faster also prevents death, but also moves you faster, shift-celerity is generally a bit better than carapace. Carapace does however have the advantage of requiring zero skill to use, unlike celerity. Anyone will perform better with more health, celerity scales with your initial skill. Crag-regeneration is useful sometimes, but situationally so, I generally find that skulks are expendable enough not to need it (they tend to die outright or are so easily replaced that it doesn't matter if they heal) and gorges obviously don't need it. Gorges also add regen's benefit to the team and are a popular choice early on, so regen's utility is limited in the early game. Good for fades and good for onoses, but not so good for gorges and skulks. Possibly useful for lerks but you can't build a team around lerks.
Shade is.. kinda not great I think? Cloak is certainly a very powerful, or at least very game changing ability, but it is nullified entirely by observatories and scans, so it is less useful on the offense and unreliable in general combat. It is also what it sounds like, a game changer, which is to say it changes very much how your skulks play. If you can make use of the combat style and not succumb to being over-tentative, I can see it perhaps working? But generally your standard zerg rush of celerity skulks should hold you over until you can get something better. Cloaking is probably one of the best upgrades for skulks in terms of long-term viability, but you should be aiming for better lifeforms, and it is far less useful for lerks, somewhat useful for fades (though fades benefit far more from having adrenaline/carapace/regen/celerity) and for onoses it works but... it's a bloody onos, it isn't really supposed to be hiding, nor does it really need to.
Shade-silence is a possibility though, I see it as being a bit like celerity only specifically for being behind marines. Celerity gets you closer faster, silence gets you closer without being noticed. Both reduce the amount of time marines have to shoot you. Again it could work quite well I think in the right hands, but it has the same problems where it's not very useful for other lifeforms. Shade first sacrifices higher lifeforms for better skulks basically, I don't generally see that as a good trade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> HOLY CRAP CELERITY DOES NOT WORK IN COMBAT GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS IT IS CRAP AT COMBAT
<!--quoteo(post=2067922:date=Jan 28 2013, 03:42 PM:name=IAMKING)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IAMKING @ Jan 28 2013, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067922"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->HOLY CRAP CELERITY DOES NOT WORK IN COMBAT GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS IT IS CRAP AT COMBAT<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I... didn't say it did?
It's not supposed to, it's supposed to get you closer, or further away, faster, and generally make you more responsive, which it does.
All aliens benefit from that, and skilful ones can use it to greater effect. Mobility is the primary alien strength, it makes sense to enhance that.
Celerity wouldn't help in melee combat much anyway because you can't get up to speed while trying to bite people.
<!--quoteo(post=2067926:date=Jan 28 2013, 10:50 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 28 2013, 10:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067926"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I... didn't say it did?
It's not supposed to, it's supposed to get you closer, or further away, faster, and generally make you more responsive, which it does.
All aliens benefit from that, and skilful ones can use it to greater effect. Mobility is the primary alien strength, it makes sense to enhance that.
Celerity wouldn't help in melee combat much anyway because you can't get up to speed while trying to bite people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> WHAT <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->moving faster also prevents death, but also moves you faster, shift-celerity is generally a bit better than carapace<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> THIS IS 100% FALSE I'M SICK OF PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT CELERITY LIKE IT DOES ANYTHING
A WALLJUMPING SKULK WILL MOVE NEARLY THE SAME SPEED WITH OR WITHOUT IT, IT IS A USELESS UPGRADE FOR ANYBODY THAT CAN PLAY
It's.. not 100% false though, you go faster with celerity, going faster is better.
Also, we're talking about this from a commander perspective, and from a commander perspective (I'm guessing you don't command much?) you have to consider the average population of your team.
If you happen to be leading a clan game every time you play (If so why are you reading this thread?) then perhaps your team would not benefit overly from celerity. If you are commanding a normal public match however, most of your team will not be walljumping everywhere, and not all of your team will be playing skulks, and you won't be expecting to win in the first five minutes.
Ergo, researching celerity is a perfectly logical strategy, as it will increase the mobility and survivability of the members of your team who are not spending the entire game as walljump-perfect skulks (this will be most of your team, just so you know).
Commander strategy does not, amusingly, boil down to OMG NOOBS LERN2PLAY U SUCK I AM GRATE COMMANDER WHY U NOT PLAY GUD?
Or at least, it shouldn't amount to that, not if you intend to make an attempt at being good at it anyway.
And no, celerity is not useless for fades, it is significantly less useful than adrenaline in many situations, but it is still useful, it has a noticeable impact, apparently there is an odd movement technique with shadowstep that is also amplified significantly with celerity, so it could potentially improve the performance of your early fades in skilled hands by a good margin, in addition to the obvious 'go faster = better' rule. When researching a first upgrade, you do have to bear in mind its overall utility, and celerity benefits every single class in the game. Some it benefits significantly more than others, but everyone benefits from it.
Carapace is the only other upgrade for which that is true, and carapace is a perfectly viable first upgrade option (and one I happen to personally prefer), but the strategic flexibility improvement offered by celerity combined with its limited, but sufficient combat application (it can buy you an extra few meters of movement or help you dodge a couple of the first bullets even if you're not very good) as well as its boost to survivability (helps you run away) means that celerity plays better to the alien strengths than carapace does.
Carapace makes up for deficiencies, celerity enhances strong points, both together is ideal, but we're specifically discussing first upgrade.
THIS IS 100% FALSE I'M SICK OF PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT CELERITY LIKE IT DOES ANYTHING
A WALLJUMPING SKULK WILL MOVE NEARLY THE SAME SPEED WITH OR WITHOUT IT, IT IS A USELESS UPGRADE FOR ANYBODY THAT CAN PLAY
ALSO, CELERITY REMAINS 100% USELESS FOR FADES.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't walljump in all locations and not all skulks are going to have mastered the skill. Celerity means they can still get across the map quickly and marines have a difficult time getting that 1st shot in whilst they close the distance. Generally once in melee range 1v1, the marine is dead.
<!--quoteo(post=2067965:date=Jan 28 2013, 12:08 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 28 2013, 12:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's.. not 100% false though, you go faster with celerity, going faster is better.
Also, we're talking about this from a commander perspective, and from a commander perspective (I'm guessing you don't command much?) you have to consider the average population of your team.
If you happen to be leading a clan game every time you play (If so why are you reading this thread?) then perhaps your team would not benefit overly from celerity. If you are commanding a normal public match however, most of your team will not be walljumping everywhere, and not all of your team will be playing skulks, and you won't be expecting to win in the first five minutes.
Ergo, researching celerity is a perfectly logical strategy, as it will increase the mobility and survivability of the members of your team who are not spending the entire game as walljump-perfect skulks (this will be most of your team, just so you know).
Commander strategy does not, amusingly, boil down to OMG NOOBS LERN2PLAY U SUCK I AM GRATE COMMANDER WHY U NOT PLAY GUD?
Or at least, it shouldn't amount to that, not if you intend to make an attempt at being good at it anyway.
And no, celerity is not useless for fades, it is significantly less useful than adrenaline in many situations, but it is still useful, it has a noticeable impact, apparently there is an odd movement technique with shadowstep that is also amplified significantly with celerity, so it could potentially improve the performance of your early fades in skilled hands by a good margin, in addition to the obvious 'go faster = better' rule. When researching a first upgrade, you do have to bear in mind its overall utility, and celerity benefits every single class in the game. Some it benefits significantly more than others, but everyone benefits from it. Carapace is the only other upgrade for which that is true, and carapace is a perfectly viable first upgrade option, but the strategic flexibility improvement offered by celerity combined with its limited, but sufficient combat application (it can buy you an extra few meters of movement or help you dodge a couple of the first bullets even if you're not very good) as well as its boost to survivability (helps you run away) means that celerity plays better to the alien strengths than carapace does.
Carapace makes up for deficiencies, celerity enhances strong points, both together is ideal, but we're specifically discussing first upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I LAUGH AT YOUR CONTRADICTIONS AND POOR UNDERSTANDING OF THE GAME
THERE IS NO FADE TECHNIQUE THAT INVOLVES CELERITY TO GO FASTER. IT DOES NOT EXIST. CELERITY DOES NOT MAKE A FADE GO FASTER. THERE IS NO TRICK. THERE IS NO REASON TO USE CELERITY ON A FADE. PERIOD.
YOU ALSO SAID YOURSELF THAT CARAPACE IS A SKILL-INDEPENDENT UPGRADE. AND CELERITY DEACTIVATES AS SOON AS YOU GET SHOT ONCE. HOW IS GOING CELERITY OVER CARA HELPING NEWBS AGAIN, WALLJUMPING OR NOT?
CARAPACE IS BY FAR THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT UPGRADE, END OF STORY. IT IS ALSO MORE OR LESS MANDATORY FOR FADES AND ONOS TO EVEN MAKE THEM VIABLE. CELERITY IS AN UPGRADE THAT NEVER EVEN NEEDS TO BE RESEARCHED AND ONLY HAS A SLIGHT EFFECT ON LERKS AND (OCCASIONALLY) ONOS. ADRENALINE IS IN FACT A MORE IMPORTANT UPGRADE THAN CELERITY, BUT NOT NEEDED UNTIL MIDGAME.
Comments
New question, since at least 3 people said that the counter to camo is an attentive comm, what does this look like from the marine side? Assume the aliens went camo fast, what do you do as Marine comm to counter this? Spam obs and scan?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's no such thing as camo counter really, scans cost money so you're just making a trade of sorts. Skulks don't become useless when camo is removed, just normal skulks. Also scans only last 10 seconds, (cost 3res), so it's hardly the end of the world...
Marine side the best shot from my experience is to rush phase/obs into 3 tech points. If the alien team is really good, just camp your team in 1 tech point with obs till you get phase and then get the third one.
If you manage that, aliens won't have a 3rd hive, meaning they'll be lacking cele/adren which is helpful endgame.
If aliens secure 3 hives with camo start, they've basically won the game.
But I've never commed against a decent camo team. I've only ever seen late camos, and then it's simply a matter of scanning around, since your rt's are already up, and you can't bite an rt while being invisible...
EDIT: I suppose it's worth mentioning I've also won 90% of all my (+15) shade hive games being alien comm. ...which is why it's always great having those "camo f*cking sucks" people on your team...
Immediately upgrade phase gates and lock down 2 additional tech rooms. Now the aliens have 2 potential hives, and one of them is a shade hive. That means GG.
Aliens still got a shot, if they manage to lock you in those 3 bases and get all the rt's around the map. They'll just mass up Onoses before you get high tech, and overrun a base for their third.
But yeah, I'd give the edge to the marines.
you act as if shift hive is necessary at all late game (it isn't). Carapace is really the only upgrade that is absolutely essential for winning the game; adrenaline is handy for fades late game but not totally necessary. Every other upgrade is not terribly important
The most efficient build order for Aliens in 100% of games is shift - crag - shade.
Shift is the most useful early game, and the most powerful overall when considering the shift structure itself is a swiss army knife not to mention all the other reasons people have put forward. The most important, to me, is that I can drop a shift near a second hive and have a gorge speed build it thereby unlocking Crag faster.
Crag comes to the forefront when you have higher life forms, which generally you won't have until your second hive is up anyway.
Shade is generally useless, but even if you consider it an amazing early game win button the downside is that you also are handing the Marines an easy win if it turns out they're highly competent. This is something some people will argue to death, so I'll just say it's my opinion and leave it at that.
This of course is not a <i>definitive</i> thing, as it's possible for anything to win depending on the respective skill of each team. That being said, Shift - Crag - Shade disregards any difference in skill that might present itself. It's equally effective versus very competent Marines and complete n00bs. Therein lies it's strength as an upgrade path.
The most efficient build order for Aliens in 100% of games is shift - crag - shade.
Shift is the most useful early game, and the most powerful overall when considering the shift structure itself is a swiss army knife not to mention all the other reasons people have put forward. The most important, to me, is that I can drop a shift near a second hive and have a gorge speed build it thereby unlocking Crag faster.
Crag comes to the forefront when you have higher life forms, which generally you won't have until your second hive is up anyway.
Shade is generally useless, but even if you consider it an amazing early game win button the downside is that you also are handing the Marines an easy win if it turns out they're highly competent. This is something some people will argue to death, so I'll just say it's my opinion and leave it at that.
This of course is not a <i>definitive</i> thing, as it's possible for anything to win depending on the respective skill of each team. That being said, Shift - Crag - Shade disregards any difference in skill that might present itself. It's equally effective versus very competent Marines and complete n00bs. Therein lies it's strength as an upgrade path.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
carapace is the best upgrade for skulks to maintain map control early game against any competent marines.
I'm not going to get drawn into a debate on this. You can think up an exception to any rule in NS2, and crag first is no different. It's a matter of personal preference, but I was just pointing out the most <i>efficient</i> build order. You can obviously do anything you please as commander.
In my opinion, requiring just a few more bullets to kill a skulk doesn't make much of a difference when the Marines can aim. If they can't aim, it obviously makes no difference whatsoever.
These are less of rules, and more of suggestions for pub play.
In my opinion, requiring just a few more bullets to kill a skulk doesn't make much of a difference when the Marines can aim. If they can't aim, it obviously makes no difference whatsoever.
These are less of rules, and more of suggestions for pub play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
there's a reason comp teams go almost exclusively carapace first. it is by far the most important upgrade in the game, and winning engagements is the most important thing for aliens.
<!--quoteo(post=2066699:date=Jan 25 2013, 04:20 PM:name=IAMKING)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (IAMKING @ Jan 25 2013, 04:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->there's a reason comp teams go <b>almost</b> exclusively carapace first. it is by far the most important upgrade in the game, and winning engagements is the most important thing for aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you sure we're talking about the same thing here King?
Oh, and what percentage is 'almost exclusively'? Or are you just throwing stuff out there?
Carapace for a skulk raises their armor from 10, to 30. That's what, four more bullets from a non-upgraded LMG? That equates to .4 seconds extra time to bite the Marine if he doesn't miss.
Maybe that's enough of a percentage to make a big difference in competitive play.
I'm not really debating this with you, I'm just curious if there are perhaps other reasons competitive teams would go carapace first. Somehow I have my doubts that it's purely for the skulks on the team, but rather for the Lerks that will no-doubt pop after a minute or two.
It sounds like you have never had to go Onos without celerity. An Exo vs an Onos without celerity, I doubt the Exo would even take a single hit. Onos are infeasibly slow by default, they are almost entirely useless without the speed boost celerity gives.
Similarly, gorges without adrenaline don't provide anywhere near the required support needed against marine structures, and for healing.
With the Gorge and the Onos taken out of the picture, aliens have essentially no late game capabilities. An alien team trying to beat back max tech marines with only crag and shade is a sorry sight to behold.
It doesn't really work that way.
That doesn't really shed any light on anything, but at least we roughly agree regarding the OP =P
Well not that I agree that everyone goes crag, but.
The extended time required is based on the players average accuracy, not 100% accuracy. So the aditional 4 bullets required (13 up from 9) is merely a percentile increase on the average time it takes to kill a skulk, namely 45% longer.
Then take into account that a longer encounter means the skulk gets closer to the target, and that accuracy decreases in melee range, you are actually looking at an increase in encounter length of, I would say, 55-60%.
<!--quoteo(post=2066748:date=Jan 26 2013, 01:44 AM:name=Mestaritonttu)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mestaritonttu @ Jan 26 2013, 01:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066748"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->strofix cele is removed in combat tho. :p (aka first hit you get...)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not 100% sure that this is still true.
Ok tested. Taking damage will never return you to baseline non celerity speed (though it will reduce your speed), and unlike using an attack such as bite or gore, there is absolutely no "cooldown" on celerity returning. That is to say that your speed will constantly be returning to its modified celerity value, even inbetween lmg bullets.
I was trying to watch one of the ENSL games the other lunch time, but the feed was really slow and it was unwatchable (on my work's 100Mb up/down connection!).
Roo<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Most of the competitive matches I've seen, Leap was highly prioritized over the first hive upgrade. I don't remember the exact builds, but they were either:
1. Hive, rez, rez, rez, crag, shell, cara OR
2. Rez, rez, rez, hive, crag, shell cara
...and in either case leap was saved for to get it started as fast as possible (which I think happened before carapace? Not sure of the timing.)
Personally I don't like getting the hive before placing rez nodes (and especially in pub play where marines are cowards, I often place 5-7 nodes before saving for upgrade or hive because it earns the team a ridiculous amount of income,) but it feels viable unless you get choked off your nodes.
Ok tested. Taking damage will never return you to baseline non celerity speed (though it will reduce your speed), and unlike using an attack such as bite or gore, there is absolutely no "cooldown" on celerity returning. That is to say that your speed will constantly be returning to its modified celerity value, even inbetween lmg bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a slight warmup period on celerity, but it has been reduced so much that it doesn't apply in many practical situations.
However, celerity's biggest benefit is that it allows skulks to transverse large portions of the map and close distance to marines faster. The area of control for each team is roughly a function of spawn time, spawn location, and movement speed (i.e. how far can a newly killed skulk or marine travel before encountering an enemy). The early speed boost provides a large jump in alien area of control until marines get up PGs.
Ok tested. Taking damage will never return you to baseline non celerity speed (though it will reduce your speed), and unlike using an attack such as bite or gore, there is absolutely no "cooldown" on celerity returning. That is to say that your speed will constantly be returning to its modified celerity value, even inbetween lmg bullets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's interesting. I'd very much like further testing on this. As a gorge it feels like you hit a wall when you get hit and cele ends, also it takes ages to "get out of combat" and benefit from cele again.
Similarly, gorges without adrenaline don't provide anywhere near the required support needed against marine structures, and for healing.
With the Gorge and the Onos taken out of the picture, aliens have essentially no late game capabilities. An alien team trying to beat back max tech marines with only crag and shade is a sorry sight to behold.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
celerity for an onos reduces to your base run or base charge speed VERY quickly after taking any damage (8.6 to 6.6 and 15.6 to 12, respectively). Onos are such large targets that they are always taking minor weapons fire. Celerity therefore has minimal use on an onos, and you're certainly not missing it very much if you know what you're doing.
Adrenaline is actually the second most important upgrade (particularly for gorges and fades), but to deem it absolutely necessary is foolish. Carapace is really the only upgrade you need for mid-late game, because it makes fades and onos viable instead of practically worthless.
There is after using a non mobility based ability, like bite or gore. There is absolutely no warmup after taking damage though, or if there is, its less than like 150ms.
Good to know for sure. If it doesn't have any effect on air speed that makes it even more negligible since skulks are jump happy fools.
To the guy saying that Gorges take forever to get back into celerity, it does feel that way. Bile bomb will pretty much lock you into slow boating unless you're a pro belly slider. This is probably a good thing, since there needs to be some downside to bile other than running dry on energy. It makes you save a bit of your tank for the slide away, if nothing else.
But again, sheesh this info needs to be in a wiki. How is anyone supposed to know celerity doesn't work the same way for every lifeform? >_<
Alternatively, crag-carapace is a good upgrade for the same reason, all aliens are better with more health, though as the actual point of health is to prevent death, and moving faster also prevents death, but also moves you faster, shift-celerity is generally a bit better than carapace. Carapace does however have the advantage of requiring zero skill to use, unlike celerity. Anyone will perform better with more health, celerity scales with your initial skill. Crag-regeneration is useful sometimes, but situationally so, I generally find that skulks are expendable enough not to need it (they tend to die outright or are so easily replaced that it doesn't matter if they heal) and gorges obviously don't need it. Gorges also add regen's benefit to the team and are a popular choice early on, so regen's utility is limited in the early game. Good for fades and good for onoses, but not so good for gorges and skulks. Possibly useful for lerks but you can't build a team around lerks.
Shade is.. kinda not great I think? Cloak is certainly a very powerful, or at least very game changing ability, but it is nullified entirely by observatories and scans, so it is less useful on the offense and unreliable in general combat. It is also what it sounds like, a game changer, which is to say it changes very much how your skulks play. If you can make use of the combat style and not succumb to being over-tentative, I can see it perhaps working? But generally your standard zerg rush of celerity skulks should hold you over until you can get something better. Cloaking is probably one of the best upgrades for skulks in terms of long-term viability, but you should be aiming for better lifeforms, and it is far less useful for lerks, somewhat useful for fades (though fades benefit far more from having adrenaline/carapace/regen/celerity) and for onoses it works but... it's a bloody onos, it isn't really supposed to be hiding, nor does it really need to.
Shade-silence is a possibility though, I see it as being a bit like celerity only specifically for being behind marines. Celerity gets you closer faster, silence gets you closer without being noticed. Both reduce the amount of time marines have to shoot you. Again it could work quite well I think in the right hands, but it has the same problems where it's not very useful for other lifeforms. Shade first sacrifices higher lifeforms for better skulks basically, I don't generally see that as a good trade.
If I see teams are stacked (usually the same team that just won easily previously), I'll go camo first because "I don't care, we're going to win anyway". Otherwise, I will never take camo first. Shift first is almost always my priority. Since I can usually get at least one person to dedicate themselves to Gorge, I can get them to build up the second hive with a shift next to it, and Celerity helps all of the skulks who don't know how to wall jump get across the map to where I need them. Crag is always my second hive if it isn't my first (on rare occasions).
I like Camo/Silence as the warning that the game is over for the marines. If a Cloaknos pops up around a corner and guts you, that's your warning to concede.
Plus, my favorite thing to do is spam eggs in a central location. When I can get my team to listen to me, I can almost always guarantee five harvesters in a match, which means a central location filled with eggs (my favorite place being Hub on Tram).
I have a huge bias against Camo first, however, and will generally leave an alien team if the khamm drops camo first, unless I have friends on the team.
Alternatively, crag-carapace is a good upgrade for the same reason, all aliens are better with more health, though as the actual point of health is to prevent death, and moving faster also prevents death, but also moves you faster, shift-celerity is generally a bit better than carapace. Carapace does however have the advantage of requiring zero skill to use, unlike celerity. Anyone will perform better with more health, celerity scales with your initial skill. Crag-regeneration is useful sometimes, but situationally so, I generally find that skulks are expendable enough not to need it (they tend to die outright or are so easily replaced that it doesn't matter if they heal) and gorges obviously don't need it. Gorges also add regen's benefit to the team and are a popular choice early on, so regen's utility is limited in the early game. Good for fades and good for onoses, but not so good for gorges and skulks. Possibly useful for lerks but you can't build a team around lerks.
Shade is.. kinda not great I think? Cloak is certainly a very powerful, or at least very game changing ability, but it is nullified entirely by observatories and scans, so it is less useful on the offense and unreliable in general combat. It is also what it sounds like, a game changer, which is to say it changes very much how your skulks play. If you can make use of the combat style and not succumb to being over-tentative, I can see it perhaps working? But generally your standard zerg rush of celerity skulks should hold you over until you can get something better. Cloaking is probably one of the best upgrades for skulks in terms of long-term viability, but you should be aiming for better lifeforms, and it is far less useful for lerks, somewhat useful for fades (though fades benefit far more from having adrenaline/carapace/regen/celerity) and for onoses it works but... it's a bloody onos, it isn't really supposed to be hiding, nor does it really need to.
Shade-silence is a possibility though, I see it as being a bit like celerity only specifically for being behind marines. Celerity gets you closer faster, silence gets you closer without being noticed. Both reduce the amount of time marines have to shoot you. Again it could work quite well I think in the right hands, but it has the same problems where it's not very useful for other lifeforms. Shade first sacrifices higher lifeforms for better skulks basically, I don't generally see that as a good trade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
HOLY CRAP CELERITY DOES NOT WORK IN COMBAT GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS IT IS CRAP AT COMBAT
I... didn't say it did?
It's not supposed to, it's supposed to get you closer, or further away, faster, and generally make you more responsive, which it does.
All aliens benefit from that, and skilful ones can use it to greater effect. Mobility is the primary alien strength, it makes sense to enhance that.
Celerity wouldn't help in melee combat much anyway because you can't get up to speed while trying to bite people.
It's not supposed to, it's supposed to get you closer, or further away, faster, and generally make you more responsive, which it does.
All aliens benefit from that, and skilful ones can use it to greater effect. Mobility is the primary alien strength, it makes sense to enhance that.
Celerity wouldn't help in melee combat much anyway because you can't get up to speed while trying to bite people.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
WHAT
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->moving faster also prevents death, but also moves you faster, shift-celerity is generally a bit better than carapace<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THIS IS 100% FALSE I'M SICK OF PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT CELERITY LIKE IT DOES ANYTHING
A WALLJUMPING SKULK WILL MOVE NEARLY THE SAME SPEED WITH OR WITHOUT IT, IT IS A USELESS UPGRADE FOR ANYBODY THAT CAN PLAY
ALSO, CELERITY REMAINS 100% USELESS FOR FADES.
Also, we're talking about this from a commander perspective, and from a commander perspective (I'm guessing you don't command much?) you have to consider the average population of your team.
If you happen to be leading a clan game every time you play (If so why are you reading this thread?) then perhaps your team would not benefit overly from celerity. If you are commanding a normal public match however, most of your team will not be walljumping everywhere, and not all of your team will be playing skulks, and you won't be expecting to win in the first five minutes.
Ergo, researching celerity is a perfectly logical strategy, as it will increase the mobility and survivability of the members of your team who are not spending the entire game as walljump-perfect skulks (this will be most of your team, just so you know).
Commander strategy does not, amusingly, boil down to OMG NOOBS LERN2PLAY U SUCK I AM GRATE COMMANDER WHY U NOT PLAY GUD?
Or at least, it shouldn't amount to that, not if you intend to make an attempt at being good at it anyway.
And no, celerity is not useless for fades, it is significantly less useful than adrenaline in many situations, but it is still useful, it has a noticeable impact, apparently there is an odd movement technique with shadowstep that is also amplified significantly with celerity, so it could potentially improve the performance of your early fades in skilled hands by a good margin, in addition to the obvious 'go faster = better' rule. When researching a first upgrade, you do have to bear in mind its overall utility, and celerity benefits every single class in the game. Some it benefits significantly more than others, but everyone benefits from it.
Carapace is the only other upgrade for which that is true, and carapace is a perfectly viable first upgrade option (and one I happen to personally prefer), but the strategic flexibility improvement offered by celerity combined with its limited, but sufficient combat application (it can buy you an extra few meters of movement or help you dodge a couple of the first bullets even if you're not very good) as well as its boost to survivability (helps you run away) means that celerity plays better to the alien strengths than carapace does.
Carapace makes up for deficiencies, celerity enhances strong points, both together is ideal, but we're specifically discussing first upgrade.
THIS IS 100% FALSE I'M SICK OF PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT CELERITY LIKE IT DOES ANYTHING
A WALLJUMPING SKULK WILL MOVE NEARLY THE SAME SPEED WITH OR WITHOUT IT, IT IS A USELESS UPGRADE FOR ANYBODY THAT CAN PLAY
ALSO, CELERITY REMAINS 100% USELESS FOR FADES.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't walljump in all locations and not all skulks are going to have mastered the skill. Celerity means they can still get across the map quickly and marines have a difficult time getting that 1st shot in whilst they close the distance. Generally once in melee range 1v1, the marine is dead.
Also, we're talking about this from a commander perspective, and from a commander perspective (I'm guessing you don't command much?) you have to consider the average population of your team.
If you happen to be leading a clan game every time you play (If so why are you reading this thread?) then perhaps your team would not benefit overly from celerity. If you are commanding a normal public match however, most of your team will not be walljumping everywhere, and not all of your team will be playing skulks, and you won't be expecting to win in the first five minutes.
Ergo, researching celerity is a perfectly logical strategy, as it will increase the mobility and survivability of the members of your team who are not spending the entire game as walljump-perfect skulks (this will be most of your team, just so you know).
Commander strategy does not, amusingly, boil down to OMG NOOBS LERN2PLAY U SUCK I AM GRATE COMMANDER WHY U NOT PLAY GUD?
Or at least, it shouldn't amount to that, not if you intend to make an attempt at being good at it anyway.
And no, celerity is not useless for fades, it is significantly less useful than adrenaline in many situations, but it is still useful, it has a noticeable impact, apparently there is an odd movement technique with shadowstep that is also amplified significantly with celerity, so it could potentially improve the performance of your early fades in skilled hands by a good margin, in addition to the obvious 'go faster = better' rule. When researching a first upgrade, you do have to bear in mind its overall utility, and celerity benefits every single class in the game. Some it benefits significantly more than others, but everyone benefits from it. Carapace is the only other upgrade for which that is true, and carapace is a perfectly viable first upgrade option, but the strategic flexibility improvement offered by celerity combined with its limited, but sufficient combat application (it can buy you an extra few meters of movement or help you dodge a couple of the first bullets even if you're not very good) as well as its boost to survivability (helps you run away) means that celerity plays better to the alien strengths than carapace does.
Carapace makes up for deficiencies, celerity enhances strong points, both together is ideal, but we're specifically discussing first upgrade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I LAUGH AT YOUR CONTRADICTIONS AND POOR UNDERSTANDING OF THE GAME
THERE IS NO FADE TECHNIQUE THAT INVOLVES CELERITY TO GO FASTER. IT DOES NOT EXIST. CELERITY DOES NOT MAKE A FADE GO FASTER. THERE IS NO TRICK. THERE IS NO REASON TO USE CELERITY ON A FADE. PERIOD.
YOU ALSO SAID YOURSELF THAT CARAPACE IS A SKILL-INDEPENDENT UPGRADE. AND CELERITY DEACTIVATES AS SOON AS YOU GET SHOT ONCE. HOW IS GOING CELERITY OVER CARA HELPING NEWBS AGAIN, WALLJUMPING OR NOT?
CARAPACE IS BY FAR THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT UPGRADE, END OF STORY. IT IS ALSO MORE OR LESS MANDATORY FOR FADES AND ONOS TO EVEN MAKE THEM VIABLE. CELERITY IS AN UPGRADE THAT NEVER EVEN NEEDS TO BE RESEARCHED AND ONLY HAS A SLIGHT EFFECT ON LERKS AND (OCCASIONALLY) ONOS. ADRENALINE IS IN FACT A MORE IMPORTANT UPGRADE THAN CELERITY, BUT NOT NEEDED UNTIL MIDGAME.