<!--quoteo(post=2065793:date=Jan 24 2013, 04:58 PM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 24 2013, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065793"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Either you are just trying to shoot down ideas, or you don't seem to have much tactical savvy when it comes to even the most obvious mechanics...
No, the alien doesn't <b>try </b>to get shot, he plays completely normally, as if he didn't even have xenocide. You leap, you parasite, you jump and you bite, and if you have the timing, and if you have the presence of mind, you use xenocide moments before you know you will die, and you explode in a fiery ball. Isn't that what you wanted? To be able to attack and explode?
screw you! I think its a great suggestion! Ima make a thread for it...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry but your explanation clearly says that if you dont get shot your energy is drained and you dont go bang.....so how is that useful? A skulk runs around losing energy hoping to get shot.
As I said you are better having it as passive ability that happens when a skulk dies (is not tied to energy at all). That though has already been mentioned back up in this thread.
<!--quoteo(post=2065775:date=Jan 24 2013, 01:35 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 24 2013, 01:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065775"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->... In Ns1 yould could still bite withouth cancelling (atleast in later versions) but in NS2 if you do anything but leap or jump you cancel the xeno. I dont know what this range your referring to is....every time a skulk has been more than 2-3 metres away I have taken almost no damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I favor a return to this before toying around with the dmg or AOE. It still takes some skill on both sides. By triggering xeno at the right time before engaging some marines you should have enough time to get off a handle of bites that would chip away enough armor from even an A3 marine or two.
As for range, that guy "itssupereffective" did a video that showed of xeno's range. In the video it is quite long, but damage fall off is so severe that unless the marine has incredibly low HP odds are a glancing xeno will not kill him.
Also, the video posted earlier in this thread that showed some lag/interp issue may indicate that the center of the explosion is getting pulled back a bit by the game. ie. If you time it perfectly so that a leaping skulk xenocides right as it lands at a marines feet (client - skulk), NS2 maybe pull you back and have you detonate a meter or so away, greatly reducing damage.
2 skulks go boom in unison or even staggered a little bit, BOOM, dead marines.
Xeno is fine. The only thing that needs to be changed to make it as good as it was in NS1 is making it so you can actually bite things while you are charging up your bomb. Other than that one thing, xeno is the exact same as it was before.
I know, small amounts of team work are difficult for the majority to pull off. I wish I was being sarcastic about that too.
<!--quoteo(post=2065805:date=Jan 24 2013, 09:23 AM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Jan 24 2013, 09:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065805"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry but your explanation clearly says that if you dont get shot your energy is drained and you dont go bang.....so how is that useful? A skulk runs around losing energy hoping to get shot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, you don't use it and then jump around trying to get shot. You play normally, trying to bite marines, and only use it when you are going to die. I don't know what you aren't getting about that approach.
I mean, fair enough, maybe the idea isn't bullet proof, but you are essentially saying that if you are a complete noob and go about things completely the wrong way, then it won't work. That may be true, but then every part of this game is a bad mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=2065762:date=Jan 23 2013, 09:43 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Jan 23 2013, 09:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does anyone who usually has the highest (or close to the highest) deaths on an alien team think xeno is bad?
Maybe skulks who think xeno is bad over value their 0 res cost life form and a 30 res team evolve.
(I don't think xeno costs 40 for a hive plus time research plus etc etc either, I think it costs 30 res ... my reasoning is: time appears as a cost for your opportunity cost for going xeno, so does res spent, eliminating these 2 from both sides of my cost vs opportunity cost equation, I get: 30 res on xeno, or 30 res on something else.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keep in mind time dead means time not getting pres, so using Xeno actually has a specific cost to the skulk player in lost res (probably about 2pres). Also remember that if you are late enough into the game to have xeno, you probably either have enough res for a higher lifeform or are very close to one, so you are wasting opportunity there and that 2 res might actually be fairly important if you are saving for onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2065814:date=Jan 23 2013, 11:41 PM:name=Dysfunctional)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dysfunctional @ Jan 23 2013, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065814"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2 skulks go boom in unison or even staggered a little bit, BOOM, dead marines.
Xeno is fine. The only thing that needs to be changed to make it as good as it was in NS1 is making it so you can actually bite things while you are charging up your bomb. Other than that one thing, xeno is the exact same as it was before.
I know, small amounts of team work are difficult for the majority to pull off. I wish I was being sarcastic about that too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a fairly large amount of teamwork to expect at least two people to forgo a higher lifeform late in the game, get into the same position at the same time, and blow Xenocide in unison. That's quite a lot to expect of players, and putting that same amount of effort into practically any other strategy will net better results every time.
I want to repeat what I think of Xeno should be, because most of the posters don't seam to bother to read the whole thread. Credit goes to Roobubba:
<b>Xeno should do more damage the more health the skulk has left. With full health it should be able to kill an A3 marine in direct vicinity.</b>
A skulk that is timing its Xeno right and is leaping into a marine group is nearly not killable in the most cases before he goes BOOM. This isn't fun. Look at the video. Even with a SG you need good aim and luck to kill the leaping skulk before he goes BOOM. With an LMG Xeno is simply not counter-able by marines when the skulk uses it right. A marine needs to be able to counter Xenocide. A full health Xeno Skulk should be able to kill marines in direct vicinity. But if he has lost health while engaging he does less damage. This gives marines a realistic chance to counter it and introduces more skill in the usage of Xeno.
You people are ridiculous, think about what your saying once in a while...some of you think this incredibly easy to execute, aoe ability performable by the free base life form should be able kill a marine instantly (since its aoe, kill multiple marines instantly.)
The abilities fine, next time your against some turtled up marines, try sending in 3-4 skulks to xeno and I guarantee you will kill half the marine team and leave the rest injured.
Sorry to say there is no way in hell this ability is getting significantly buffed.
<!--quoteo(post=2065845:date=Jan 24 2013, 03:16 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jan 24 2013, 03:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065845"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A skulk that is timing its Xeno right and is leaping into a marine group is nearly not killable in the most cases before he goes BOOM. This isn't fun. Look at the video. Even with a SG you need good aim and luck to kill the leaping skulk before he goes BOOM. With an LMG Xeno is simply not counter-able by marines when the skulk uses it right. A marine needs to be able to counter Xenocide. A full health Xeno Skulk should be able to kill marines in direct vicinity. But if he has lost health while engaging he does less damage. This gives marines a realistic chance to counter it and introduces more skill in the usage of Xeno.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. I like this. ANOTHER!
But seriously, I'd take the lower damage based on health if it meant it would kill a marine if timed correctly. It also needs a range decrease. Its range is 14. To give that a feel, the radius on the GL is now 8.
So my new stance is: Make it 280-300 normal damage if at full health, dropping % rates based on health. At 100% health, full damage. 50% health would be half damage. 0% health... it's a dud. Then lower its range to 10 or so, and you've got something pretty decent for a third hive ability.
EDIT: Just now watching my Xenocide video again. I was obviously drunk with victory and explosions, please forgive my misuse of "bile bomb for 200 normal damage" and "Fade biting".
EDIT: You can see its gigantic range killing an enemy I didn't even see nearby at 7m46s. It may be a case of interp dragging the explosion back a bit, but he was quite a ways away next to the IP with a GL.
<!--quoteo(post=2065950:date=Jan 25 2013, 02:49 AM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Jan 25 2013, 02:49 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You people are ridiculous, think about what your saying once in a while...some of you think this incredibly easy to execute, aoe ability performable by the free base life form should be able kill a marine instantly (since its aoe, kill multiple marines instantly.)
The abilities fine, next time your against some turtled up marines, try sending in 3-4 skulks to xeno and I guarantee you will kill half the marine team and leave the rest injured.
Sorry to say there is no way in hell this ability is getting significantly buffed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> 3-4 skulks will do less damage than 2-3 gorges using a second hive ability in bile bomb.
This is a 3rd hive ability Roobubba has put forward a decent compromise that allows for xeno to take someone out...as long as the skulk say has atleast 90% health (and drops to half damage as the weakest level). If you nerf this too much as the health drops off it wont ever be used, a thrid hive upgrade should help a side win....not be avoided to be researched by the khamm because its useless.
<!--quoteo(post=2065830:date=Jan 24 2013, 05:35 AM:name=sotanaht)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sotanaht @ Jan 24 2013, 05:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065830"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's a fairly large amount of teamwork to expect at least two people to forgo a higher lifeform late in the game, get into the same position at the same time, and blow Xenocide in unison. That's quite a lot to expect of players, and putting that same amount of effort into practically any other strategy will net better results every time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, expecting teamwork in a completely team based game, how utterly idiotic of me.
You'd have a point if people were trying to use Xeno in a strategic manner and actually researching it before the game was already decided. With the current habits of when xeno is researched, it's very likely to have 2 people on the team who have already used their res for a higher lifeform and died with it. This is where the small amount of teamwork of dual skulk xenocide will shine, because it's the only place that it can shine. I don't think it's all that hard to see when someone is already xenociding and meet up with him/her for their next bombing run, but I can pay attention to the kill feed, map and where I'm going/what's happening in front of me pretty well.
Either way, xeno's never been meant as a constant offensive tool. It's there to break turtles, cause confusion and weaken enemies for the rest of your team to have an easier time with the clean up. Having just one well timed xenocider will make a huge impact. Having 2 can win you the game instantly. Having random skulk-derps jump into the marine base with no other aliens pushing isn't going to do anything, and this is how the majority use xenocide. You have to use xenocide at the right times to see how awesome it really is.
Also, sporing lerk+xeno skulk is a pretty devastating combo as well.
Sadly, too many people seem to be completely against learning, so xeno will always be considered weak/useless by the majority until it let's you 1 shot every non-exo marine in a 40 yard radius.
<!--quoteo(post=2065762:date=Jan 24 2013, 12:43 AM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Jan 24 2013, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065762"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Does anyone who usually has the highest (or close to the highest) deaths on an alien team think xeno is bad?
Maybe skulks who think xeno is bad over value their 0 res cost life form and a 30 res team evolve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I usually have highest score on my team, if that counts. My deaths range from highest on team (marines can shoot + teammates are clueless or cowardly) to lowest (marines can't aim and are slaughtered in every engagement.)
I'm calling Xenocide bad in comparison to using the same 0-cost Skulk to do considerably more damage with accurate biting and sneaky structure damage. Even in comparison with eggs being right near the front line. The team resource cost doesn't even really enter into it -- xenocide just doesn't have the impact to make it worth using.
<!--quoteo(post=2066093:date=Jan 24 2013, 04:22 PM:name=Dysfunctional)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dysfunctional @ Jan 24 2013, 04:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, expecting teamwork in a completely team based game, how utterly idiotic of me.
You'd have a point if people were trying to use Xeno in a strategic manner and actually researching it before the game was already decided. With the current habits of when xeno is researched, it's very likely to have 2 people on the team who have already used their res for a higher lifeform and died with it. This is where the small amount of teamwork of dual skulk xenocide will shine, because it's the only place that it can shine. I don't think it's all that hard to see when someone is already xenociding and meet up with him/her for their next bombing run, but I can pay attention to the kill feed, map and where I'm going/what's happening in front of me pretty well.
Either way, xeno's never been meant as a constant offensive tool. It's there to break turtles, cause confusion and weaken enemies for the rest of your team to have an easier time with the clean up. Having just one well timed xenocider will make a huge impact. Having 2 can win you the game instantly. Having random skulk-derps jump into the marine base with no other aliens pushing isn't going to do anything, and this is how the majority use xenocide. You have to use xenocide at the right times to see how awesome it really is.
Also, sporing lerk+xeno skulk is a pretty devastating combo as well.
Sadly, too many people seem to be completely against learning, so xeno will always be considered weak/useless by the majority until it let's you 1 shot every non-exo marine in a 40 yard radius.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thank you. As I said earlier in this thread xeno <i>can</i> be useful it the right situations, just not all time since people don't coordinate. <!--quoteo(post=2065316:date=Jan 23 2013, 02:02 AM:name=WhiteWeasel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WhiteWeasel @ Jan 23 2013, 02:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->X<!--coloro:#696969--><span style="color:#696969"><!--/coloro-->90% of the time: xeno sucks Other 10% of the time: Your that bada$$ who charges into an arc train and kills 4 marines, 2 macs and leaves that train exposed to alien rape-age.
While it could use a damage buff like 225, or even 250 normal damage (currently 200 norm. DMG),<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->X (my best attempt of a strike out) <b>it also could be used more smartly:</b>
(1)Use it on LARGE, close together groups, like an arc/exo push, and I go by the 3 or more rule. (2)Be a creeper, use cloak/scilence to ninja. (3)200 normal damage is a LOT for AoE, use it in tandem with another skulk, or even en masse; 2 or more at once will kill any level marine (4)Too much armor/hp? Get a buddy to B-I-L-E-B-O-M-B and S-P-O-R-E to soften them up.
A Little teamwork can go a long way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's something everyone should consider: xenocide can insta-gib an A0 marine. In other words, destroy/disable the Arms Lab. All marines will (unlike aliens) instantly lose all of their upgrades once the Arms Lab is out of the picture.
Furthermore, I rarely ever see marines build more than one Arms Lab. Maybe your experience has been different, but personally, I've had to scramble to get an Arms Lab back up quite a few times, so it's not impossible.
It's kind of funny. In the late game, Marines are heavily reliant on this single building, yet there's usually never a backup and aliens rarely ever focus it.
P.S. Yes, I am speaking out of experience. I had a game where we lost the Arms Lab, so three of us rushed to get it back up. It got up to 99%, but then here comes the hero skulk with xenocide. All three of us died from "full" health instantly.
<!--quoteo(post=2066093:date=Jan 24 2013, 05:22 PM:name=Dysfunctional)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dysfunctional @ Jan 24 2013, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, expecting teamwork in a completely team based game, how utterly idiotic of me.
You'd have a point if people were trying to use Xeno in a strategic manner and actually researching it before the game was already decided. With the current habits of when xeno is researched, it's very likely to have 2 people on the team who have already used their res for a higher lifeform and died with it. This is where the small amount of teamwork of dual skulk xenocide will shine, because it's the only place that it can shine. I don't think it's all that hard to see when someone is already xenociding and meet up with him/her for their next bombing run, but I can pay attention to the kill feed, map and where I'm going/what's happening in front of me pretty well.
Either way, xeno's never been meant as a constant offensive tool. It's there to break turtles, cause confusion and weaken enemies for the rest of your team to have an easier time with the clean up. Having just one well timed xenocider will make a huge impact. Having 2 can win you the game instantly. Having random skulk-derps jump into the marine base with no other aliens pushing isn't going to do anything, and this is how the majority use xenocide. You have to use xenocide at the right times to see how awesome it really is.
Also, sporing lerk+xeno skulk is a pretty devastating combo as well.
Sadly, too many people seem to be completely against learning, so xeno will always be considered weak/useless by the majority until it let's you 1 shot every non-exo marine in a 40 yard radius.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dysfunctional has hit the nail right on the head. Synergy guarantees results. SYNERGY PEOPLE, SYNERGY! Imagine the possibilities if people actually worked together? Discussing xenocide outside the scope of teamwork is silly.
<!--quoteo(post=2066211:date=Jan 25 2013, 07:23 AM:name=irEric)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (irEric @ Jan 25 2013, 07:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066211"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dysfunctional has hit the nail right on the head. Synergy guarantees results. SYNERGY PEOPLE, SYNERGY! Imagine the possibilities if people actually worked together? Discussing xenocide outside the scope of teamwork is silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's already been covered. Focused synergy between 3 or more people using the most base and weakest lifeform and a third tier ability, results in less gaurenteed return than a single builder class using a tier 2 ability.
<!--quoteo(post=2065309:date=Jan 23 2013, 07:41 AM:name=|strofix|)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (|strofix| @ Jan 23 2013, 07:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065309"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Strangely, I have found vortex to be one of the most indispensable abilities in combat mode. As little weight as that carries, it may at least be a good lead for what scenarios vortex is actually useful in, and how to potentially mold the game around it, or vice versa.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True, They are the most effective against Exos and its fun to keep them in a vortex. And bloody anoyying when kept in on. But this is more about the standard game and not so much combat.
<!--quoteo(post=2065814:date=Jan 23 2013, 11:41 PM:name=Dysfunctional)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dysfunctional @ Jan 23 2013, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065814"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2 skulks go boom in unison or even staggered a little bit, BOOM, dead marines.
Xeno is fine. The only thing that needs to be changed to make it as good as it was in NS1 is making it so you can actually bite things while you are charging up your bomb. Other than that one thing, xeno is the exact same as it was before.
I know, small amounts of team work are difficult for the majority to pull off. I wish I was being sarcastic about that too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, by your own argument xeno is NOT fine. TWO skulks have to kill themselves at the same time in the same place with 3 hive tech to kill any marines with Xeno. The return just isn't worth the investment regardless of how good your teamwork is. You simply can't afford to sacrifice two attackers just to maybe kill a marine or two, it's not a fair trade.
THEORETICALLY could kill a good number of marines with it, but the only situation where that is likely to be anywhere near possible is a marine turtle where most if not all the marines are clustered together in their base. Even then it's not that useful since the marines respawn extremely fast and are already in their base to begin with so they don't actually lose any ground.
<!--quoteo(post=2067214:date=Jan 27 2013, 02:00 AM:name=sotanaht)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sotanaht @ Jan 27 2013, 02:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2067214"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You simply can't afford to sacrifice two attackers just to maybe kill a marine or two, it's not a fair trade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty much how skulks work anyway.
Comments
No, the alien doesn't <b>try </b>to get shot, he plays completely normally, as if he didn't even have xenocide. You leap, you parasite, you jump and you bite, and if you have the timing, and if you have the presence of mind, you use xenocide moments before you know you will die, and you explode in a fiery ball. Isn't that what you wanted? To be able to attack and explode?
screw you! I think its a great suggestion! Ima make a thread for it...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry but your explanation clearly says that if you dont get shot your energy is drained and you dont go bang.....so how is that useful?
A skulk runs around losing energy hoping to get shot.
As I said you are better having it as passive ability that happens when a skulk dies (is not tied to energy at all).
That though has already been mentioned back up in this thread.
In Ns1 yould could still bite withouth cancelling (atleast in later versions) but in NS2 if you do anything but leap or jump you cancel the xeno.
I dont know what this range your referring to is....every time a skulk has been more than 2-3 metres away I have taken almost no damage.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I favor a return to this before toying around with the dmg or AOE. It still takes some skill on both sides. By triggering xeno at the right time before engaging some marines you should have enough time to get off a handle of bites that would chip away enough armor from even an A3 marine or two.
As for range, that guy "itssupereffective" did a video that showed of xeno's range. In the video it is quite long, but damage fall off is so severe that unless the marine has incredibly low HP odds are a glancing xeno will not kill him.
Also, the video posted earlier in this thread that showed some lag/interp issue may indicate that the center of the explosion is getting pulled back a bit by the game.
ie. If you time it perfectly so that a leaping skulk xenocides right as it lands at a marines feet (client - skulk), NS2 maybe pull you back and have you detonate a meter or so away, greatly reducing damage.
Xeno is fine. The only thing that needs to be changed to make it as good as it was in NS1 is making it so you can actually bite things while you are charging up your bomb. Other than that one thing, xeno is the exact same as it was before.
I know, small amounts of team work are difficult for the majority to pull off. I wish I was being sarcastic about that too.
A skulk runs around losing energy hoping to get shot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Once again, you don't use it and then jump around trying to get shot. You play normally, trying to bite marines, and only use it when you are going to die. I don't know what you aren't getting about that approach.
I mean, fair enough, maybe the idea isn't bullet proof, but you are essentially saying that if you are a complete noob and go about things completely the wrong way, then it won't work. That may be true, but then every part of this game is a bad mechanic.
Maybe skulks who think xeno is bad over value their 0 res cost life form and a 30 res team evolve.
(I don't think xeno costs 40 for a hive plus time research plus etc etc either, I think it costs 30 res ... my reasoning is: time appears as a cost for your opportunity cost for going xeno, so does res spent, eliminating these 2 from both sides of my cost vs opportunity cost equation, I get: 30 res on xeno, or 30 res on something else.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Keep in mind time dead means time not getting pres, so using Xeno actually has a specific cost to the skulk player in lost res (probably about 2pres). Also remember that if you are late enough into the game to have xeno, you probably either have enough res for a higher lifeform or are very close to one, so you are wasting opportunity there and that 2 res might actually be fairly important if you are saving for onos.
<!--quoteo(post=2065814:date=Jan 23 2013, 11:41 PM:name=Dysfunctional)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dysfunctional @ Jan 23 2013, 11:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065814"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2 skulks go boom in unison or even staggered a little bit, BOOM, dead marines.
Xeno is fine. The only thing that needs to be changed to make it as good as it was in NS1 is making it so you can actually bite things while you are charging up your bomb. Other than that one thing, xeno is the exact same as it was before.
I know, small amounts of team work are difficult for the majority to pull off. I wish I was being sarcastic about that too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a fairly large amount of teamwork to expect at least two people to forgo a higher lifeform late in the game, get into the same position at the same time, and blow Xenocide in unison. That's quite a lot to expect of players, and putting that same amount of effort into practically any other strategy will net better results every time.
<b>Xeno should do more damage the more health the skulk has left. With full health it should be able to kill an A3 marine in direct vicinity.</b>
A skulk that is timing its Xeno right and is leaping into a marine group is nearly not killable in the most cases before he goes BOOM. This isn't fun. Look at the video. Even with a SG you need good aim and luck to kill the leaping skulk before he goes BOOM. With an LMG Xeno is simply not counter-able by marines when the skulk uses it right. A marine needs to be able to counter Xenocide. A full health Xeno Skulk should be able to kill marines in direct vicinity. But if he has lost health while engaging he does less damage. This gives marines a realistic chance to counter it and introduces more skill in the usage of Xeno.
The abilities fine, next time your against some turtled up marines, try sending in 3-4 skulks to xeno and I guarantee you will kill half the marine team and leave the rest injured.
Sorry to say there is no way in hell this ability is getting significantly buffed.
This. I like this. ANOTHER!
But seriously, I'd take the lower damage based on health if it meant it would kill a marine if timed correctly. It also needs a range decrease. Its range is 14. To give that a feel, the radius on the GL is now 8.
So my new stance is: Make it 280-300 normal damage if at full health, dropping % rates based on health. At 100% health, full damage. 50% health would be half damage. 0% health... it's a dud. Then lower its range to 10 or so, and you've got something pretty decent for a third hive ability.
EDIT: Just now watching my Xenocide video again. I was obviously drunk with victory and explosions, please forgive my misuse of "bile bomb for 200 normal damage" and "Fade biting".
EDIT: You can see its gigantic range killing an enemy I didn't even see nearby at 7m46s. It may be a case of interp dragging the explosion back a bit, but he was quite a ways away next to the IP with a GL.
The abilities fine, next time your against some turtled up marines, try sending in 3-4 skulks to xeno and I guarantee you will kill half the marine team and leave the rest injured.
Sorry to say there is no way in hell this ability is getting significantly buffed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3-4 skulks will do less damage than 2-3 gorges using a second hive ability in bile bomb.
This is a 3rd hive ability Roobubba has put forward a decent compromise that allows for xeno to take someone out...as long as the skulk say has atleast 90% health (and drops to half damage as the weakest level).
If you nerf this too much as the health drops off it wont ever be used, a thrid hive upgrade should help a side win....not be avoided to be researched by the khamm because its useless.
Yes, expecting teamwork in a completely team based game, how utterly idiotic of me.
You'd have a point if people were trying to use Xeno in a strategic manner and actually researching it before the game was already decided. With the current habits of when xeno is researched, it's very likely to have 2 people on the team who have already used their res for a higher lifeform and died with it. This is where the small amount of teamwork of dual skulk xenocide will shine, because it's the only place that it can shine. I don't think it's all that hard to see when someone is already xenociding and meet up with him/her for their next bombing run, but I can pay attention to the kill feed, map and where I'm going/what's happening in front of me pretty well.
Either way, xeno's never been meant as a constant offensive tool. It's there to break turtles, cause confusion and weaken enemies for the rest of your team to have an easier time with the clean up. Having just one well timed xenocider will make a huge impact. Having 2 can win you the game instantly. Having random skulk-derps jump into the marine base with no other aliens pushing isn't going to do anything, and this is how the majority use xenocide. You have to use xenocide at the right times to see how awesome it really is.
Also, sporing lerk+xeno skulk is a pretty devastating combo as well.
Sadly, too many people seem to be completely against learning, so xeno will always be considered weak/useless by the majority until it let's you 1 shot every non-exo marine in a 40 yard radius.
Maybe skulks who think xeno is bad over value their 0 res cost life form and a 30 res team evolve.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I usually have highest score on my team, if that counts. My deaths range from highest on team (marines can shoot + teammates are clueless or cowardly) to lowest (marines can't aim and are slaughtered in every engagement.)
I'm calling Xenocide bad in comparison to using the same 0-cost Skulk to do considerably more damage with accurate biting and sneaky structure damage. Even in comparison with eggs being right near the front line. The team resource cost doesn't even really enter into it -- xenocide just doesn't have the impact to make it worth using.
You'd have a point if people were trying to use Xeno in a strategic manner and actually researching it before the game was already decided. With the current habits of when xeno is researched, it's very likely to have 2 people on the team who have already used their res for a higher lifeform and died with it. This is where the small amount of teamwork of dual skulk xenocide will shine, because it's the only place that it can shine. I don't think it's all that hard to see when someone is already xenociding and meet up with him/her for their next bombing run, but I can pay attention to the kill feed, map and where I'm going/what's happening in front of me pretty well.
Either way, xeno's never been meant as a constant offensive tool. It's there to break turtles, cause confusion and weaken enemies for the rest of your team to have an easier time with the clean up. Having just one well timed xenocider will make a huge impact. Having 2 can win you the game instantly. Having random skulk-derps jump into the marine base with no other aliens pushing isn't going to do anything, and this is how the majority use xenocide. You have to use xenocide at the right times to see how awesome it really is.
Also, sporing lerk+xeno skulk is a pretty devastating combo as well.
Sadly, too many people seem to be completely against learning, so xeno will always be considered weak/useless by the majority until it let's you 1 shot every non-exo marine in a 40 yard radius.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you. As I said earlier in this thread xeno <i>can</i> be useful it the right situations, just not all time since people don't coordinate.
<!--quoteo(post=2065316:date=Jan 23 2013, 02:02 AM:name=WhiteWeasel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WhiteWeasel @ Jan 23 2013, 02:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065316"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->X<!--coloro:#696969--><span style="color:#696969"><!--/coloro-->90% of the time: xeno sucks
Other 10% of the time: Your that bada$$ who charges into an arc train and kills 4 marines, 2 macs and leaves that train exposed to alien rape-age.
While it could use a damage buff like 225, or even 250 normal damage (currently 200 norm. DMG),<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->X (my best attempt of a strike out)
<b>it also could be used more smartly:</b>
(1)Use it on LARGE, close together groups, like an arc/exo push, and I go by the 3 or more rule.
(2)Be a creeper, use cloak/scilence to ninja.
(3)200 normal damage is a LOT for AoE, use it in tandem with another skulk, or even en masse; 2 or more at once will kill any level marine
(4)Too much armor/hp? Get a buddy to B-I-L-E-B-O-M-B and S-P-O-R-E to soften them up.
A Little teamwork can go a long way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Furthermore, I rarely ever see marines build more than one Arms Lab. Maybe your experience has been different, but personally, I've had to scramble to get an Arms Lab back up quite a few times, so it's not impossible.
It's kind of funny. In the late game, Marines are heavily reliant on this single building, yet there's usually never a backup and aliens rarely ever focus it.
P.S. Yes, I am speaking out of experience. I had a game where we lost the Arms Lab, so three of us rushed to get it back up. It got up to 99%, but then here comes the hero skulk with xenocide. All three of us died from "full" health instantly.
Are beed and did?
<!--quoteo(post=2066093:date=Jan 24 2013, 05:22 PM:name=Dysfunctional)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dysfunctional @ Jan 24 2013, 05:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2066093"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, expecting teamwork in a completely team based game, how utterly idiotic of me.
You'd have a point if people were trying to use Xeno in a strategic manner and actually researching it before the game was already decided. With the current habits of when xeno is researched, it's very likely to have 2 people on the team who have already used their res for a higher lifeform and died with it. This is where the small amount of teamwork of dual skulk xenocide will shine, because it's the only place that it can shine. I don't think it's all that hard to see when someone is already xenociding and meet up with him/her for their next bombing run, but I can pay attention to the kill feed, map and where I'm going/what's happening in front of me pretty well.
Either way, xeno's never been meant as a constant offensive tool. It's there to break turtles, cause confusion and weaken enemies for the rest of your team to have an easier time with the clean up. Having just one well timed xenocider will make a huge impact. Having 2 can win you the game instantly. Having random skulk-derps jump into the marine base with no other aliens pushing isn't going to do anything, and this is how the majority use xenocide. You have to use xenocide at the right times to see how awesome it really is.
Also, sporing lerk+xeno skulk is a pretty devastating combo as well.
Sadly, too many people seem to be completely against learning, so xeno will always be considered weak/useless by the majority until it let's you 1 shot every non-exo marine in a 40 yard radius.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dysfunctional has hit the nail right on the head. Synergy guarantees results. SYNERGY PEOPLE, SYNERGY! Imagine the possibilities if people actually worked together? Discussing xenocide outside the scope of teamwork is silly.
It's already been covered. Focused synergy between 3 or more people using the most base and weakest lifeform and a third tier ability, results in less gaurenteed return than a single builder class using a tier 2 ability.
True, They are the most effective against Exos and its fun to keep them in a vortex. And bloody anoyying when kept in on. But this is more about the standard game and not so much combat.
<img src="http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/1548/ownedvu.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Xeno is fine. The only thing that needs to be changed to make it as good as it was in NS1 is making it so you can actually bite things while you are charging up your bomb. Other than that one thing, xeno is the exact same as it was before.
I know, small amounts of team work are difficult for the majority to pull off. I wish I was being sarcastic about that too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, by your own argument xeno is NOT fine. TWO skulks have to kill themselves at the same time in the same place with 3 hive tech to kill any marines with Xeno. The return just isn't worth the investment regardless of how good your teamwork is. You simply can't afford to sacrifice two attackers just to maybe kill a marine or two, it's not a fair trade.
THEORETICALLY could kill a good number of marines with it, but the only situation where that is likely to be anywhere near possible is a marine turtle where most if not all the marines are clustered together in their base. Even then it's not that useful since the marines respawn extremely fast and are already in their base to begin with so they don't actually lose any ground.
Pretty much how skulks work anyway.