Will xeno get some love in the future?
thefonz
Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105847Members
Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105847Members
As it stand right now, I think xeno is the weakest of the 3rd hive abilities. By the time you get it, marines have too much armor or the game is over in aminute or two anyway. Thats if you get it too. Most comms drop onos eggs instead of researching it (or vortex), for good reason, they are superior choice in every way.
Comments
Vortex is by far the most useless ability 3rd hive. In fact, if you made Vortex an ability Fade's start with it'd still be confusingly stupid and pointless.
Vortex is by far the most useless ability 3rd hive. In fact, if you made Vortex an ability Fade's start with it'd still be confusingly stupid and pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tough one....I think xeno takes the useless cake as it takes you out of the battle...vortex does not kill the faed by default.
Xeno was scaled to be useful against a0 marines....I, and other, pointed out the flaw in this and how it needs to be balanced against a a3 marine.
If xeno took out an A3 marine it would be worth researching and dieing to actually use. Simply gimping the marines does little to help...a gorges bile bomb is better value than a xeno skulk.
Strangely, I have found vortex to be one of the most indispensable abilities in combat mode. As little weight as that carries, it may at least be a good lead for what scenarios vortex is actually useful in, and how to potentially mold the game around it, or vice versa.
As for xeno, I'm not so sure about making it strictly more powerful. I strongly believe that one of the primary reasons for turtling as marines being so entertaining is that xenocide is not powerful. Turtling against 3 hive aliens in NS1 was certainly not as fun as you were just randomly blown up every 5 seconds. However, maybe that's the siege breaker we have been looking for? Who knows.
Other 10% of the time: Your that bada$$ who charges into an arc train and kills 4 marines, 2 macs and leaves that train exposed to alien rape-age.
While it could use a damage buff like 225, or even 250 normal damage (currently 200 norm. DMG), it also could be used more smartly:
(1)Use it on LARGE, close together groups, like an arc/exo push, and I go by the 3 or more rule.
(2)Be a creeper, use cloak/scilence to ninja.
(3)200 normal damage is a LOT for AoE, use it in tandem with another skulk, or even en masse; 2 or more at once will kill any level marine
(4)Too much armor/hp? Get a buddy to B-I-L-E-B-O-M-B and S-P-O-R-E to soften them up.
A Little teamwork can go a long way.
Other 10% of the time: Your that bada$$ who charges into an arc train and kills 4 marines, 2 macs and leaves that train exposed to alien rape-age.
While it could use a damage buff like 225, or even 250 normal damage (currently 200 norm. DMG), it also could be used more smartly:
(1)Use it on LARGE, close together groups, like an arc/exo push, and I go by the 3 or more rule.
(2)Be a creeper, use cloak/scilence to ninja.
(3)200 normal damage is a LOT for AoE, use it in tandem with another skulk, or even en masse; 2 or more at once will kill any level marine
(4)Too much armor/hp? Get a buddy to B-I-L-E-B-O-M-B and S-P-O-R-E to soften them up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Relatively sure that the damage rapidly decreases as your distance from the target increases. So 2 skulks would kill a marine if they were both directly on top of him. Otherwise it would typically take 3 skulks to kill a marine.
Not 100% on the damage falloff, but I've double xenod groups of marines many times without any dying.
While I agree, you just find that level of coordination and pubs and competitive players tend to have better things to do than suicide attack.
I think just being able to bite while xenocide is charging up would be a great improvement.
Other 10% of the time: Your that bada$$ who charges into an arc train and kills 4 marines, 2 macs and leaves that train exposed to alien rape-age.
While it could use a damage buff like 225, or even 250 normal damage (currently 200 norm. DMG), it also could be used more smartly:
(1)Use it on LARGE, close together groups, like an arc/exo push, and I go by the 3 or more rule.
(2)Be a creeper, use cloak/scilence to ninja.
(3)200 normal damage is a LOT for AoE, use it in tandem with another skulk, or even en masse; 2 or more at once will kill any level marine
(4)Too much armor/hp? Get a buddy to B-I-L-E-B-O-M-B and S-P-O-R-E to soften them up.
A Little teamwork can go a long way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry but for an ability that kills the skulk and forces them to sit and wait 12 seconds...then get back to fight it should guarantee you kill 1 marine if you are in biting range.
The way I see it there would be a massive uproar if SG did not 1shot a skulk (even with cara), yet here we have a 3rd hive ability (top tier tech...so SG, JP, EXO territory) that cant even kill a single marine when your humping his leg.
It needs a buff or to be available on 1 hive (at a cost) as it loses its ability to kill a marine after the 5 min mark of most games.
Even when playing against a marine team without upgrades it does not come close to what it was in NS1, which is was perfectly balanced.
When aliens have 1 hive if your not getting 1 shotted with SG...its GL's killing 5 skulks who are munching on an exo (which takes no damage) trying to take out the arcs that can be two (or more such as central arcing deposit) rooms over.
Xeno needs a big buff, issues is most people would simply lok at W:L and say "Aliens are OP'd...xeno is fine as is why you want to buff aliens?"
Yet we end up with a concede vote and a community that f4's or recycles bases to end games faster. Fixing alien top tech would go a long way to reducing the number of recycles or concede votes on teh marine side I would suggest.
The problem is that, regardless of how powerful and potentially overpowered the shotgun is against the skulk, it still requires that you aim at, and hit the target. Granted, at times that can be a pretty simple task, but if that is simple, then xenociding someone is childs play. The reward must match the investment, otherwise we are going to get another skill floor like the Onos has.
I absolutely agree with this. If you introduce some skill into the usage of xeno, you can pump up the damage. For example making the skulk not able to leap while xeno is charging and / or let him lose health constantly while he is charging. But in any case, it must be counter able by skilled marines. Only than is more damage justified.
An egg might be useful if most of your team pulled back in time and you lost a decent Lerk, but a guide-by-wire missile is always useful to soften up targets.
This, of course, assumes you aren't sitting on 200 T.Res. In this case, drop two Onos. <i>Then</i> research Xeno.
The fact that it adds 1 to your deaths without really achieving very much just makes it infinitely less appealing than all other options: including just bombing in there as skulk. The distraction and damage you can cause before you die (often with a couple of kills in there to massage my horrendous ego) is far more rewarding than a suicide rush. And this is coming from someone who absolutely GETs the teamwork side of the game.
The fact that you don't get res while dead only delays your ability to be more useful as a skulk with xeno.
In my ~200h gaming, I've seen 1 xeno kill, and I've never seen it used effectively to break a turtle. Gorges, lerks with umbra and spores, and oni as distractions are what breaks turtles. A massive boost to xeno might go some way to making it useful, even if that boost is primarily an increase in damage towards buildings. No-one in their right mind is going to rush researching xeno for anything other than trying to do the last finishing rush: that's when marines are all in one place and when it's most useful. So make it useful and worthwhile killing yourself for... Or replace it with something else!
The point being SG's do not require an advanced armoury or a second tech point bu simply research.
Xenocide takes 3 tech hives plus research.
If you prefer we could compare this to GL spam? which can 1 shot multiple skulks.
necro, lets remember that this is top tech tier for aliens. There is very little skill in GL spam (unless its about killing whips) which could be argued is comparable top tech.
Last time I checked attacking cancels xeno, but you can still run and jump (but thats all you can do), so getting close enough to a W3 A3 marine turtled in his base with sentries and buddies is pretty damn tuff.
Its a skill for a skulk to get within xeno range in these situations...certainly as much as it is skill for a marine to shoot grenades at an exo's feet.
Yes...just a shame this current xeno does so little damage compared to say 1 grenade.
Even with skill you are struggling to get a kill with it, but first the marine you are targeting has to be already damaged.
Getting in and across a turtled room as a skulk is hard to do, it should not be better to stick to biting than using your third hive ability.
But a skilled skulk will do more damaged sticking to biting than using xeno simply because it takes them out of the fight permanently but does not do the same for their target.
Lets not digress onto the onos...poor onos sadly with only stomp, charge and gore there is little depth to the gameplay. The poor state of higher lifeform aliens in a W3A3 situation and total lack of 3rd hive finishing abilities (biles 2nd not third...but is the other finisher).
I don't agree with that as a blanket statement. It disregards three key issues with Xeno:
1) you die and have to wait (not gaining res) to rejoin the attack
2) It's incredibly situational and is only really effective when lots of marines and/ir buildings are clumped together (and when multiple members of the attacking team kill themselves at the same time...)
3) it's a 3 hive ability that's essentially the 'icing on the cake' in most games. If you rushed xeno: place 2 hives and research xeno ASAP, it would be completely horrible for the aliens. Vortex, while it does very little of use, won't lead to the fade immediately dying. Stomp can have genuine uses both in attack and defense, and umbra is great. Not that anyone would really do this, I'm just trying to highlight the fundamental differences in usefulness of the 3rd hive abilities.
I think the question of 'skill' required is actually a fairly misleading one in this case. The problem with it isn't that it doesn't require godlike skill, the problem is that whatever you do with it, it sucks in almost every imaginable case.
If it allowed you to spawn with a reduced spawn timer after use but did the current level of damage, it might be more acceptable. In particular if it didn't count the death ;)
Alternatively, just boost the damage significantly, reducing the range if necessary, and it might actually find a use towards helping aliens with the final push.
Anyway. What I tried to say regardless of that was, that a more skillful approach would justify a damage increase (= a Xeno that can insta-kill an A3 marine). But than it needs to be counter-able by the marines. They (1) need to know, when it is comming at them (for example by a clear sound) and (2) they need to be able to counter it by killing the skulk before he goes of. This stands, at least if we are on the same ground, that 3 hives vs 2 CCs should be fair.
If I remember right, there is already a sound when activating Xeno. But wasn't Leap possible while Xeno is charging? There isn't much a marine can do, when a Xeno-Skulk leaps into the group. And if it is really this difficult to counter, the low damage is explainable.
I'd say they're coming soon is pretty accurate.
I think UWE did try to attribute some sense of "skill" to xenocide, however I think it hasn't worked. Basically by toning down the damage, they made the "skill" aspect the coordination and execution of a mass xenocide, involving 3-4 skulks. However, I think they got the two variables wrong, namely damage and AOE. Xenocides AOE is just plain ridiculous. It covered around a third of the entire terminal tech point room, which is just silly. The damage is also too low, not far too low, but too low.
What would be ideal is if the range was substantially decreased, to about half of what it currently is, and if the damage was increased by a little. I think if Xenocide did 45% damage to A2, and 40% to A3, with half the AOE as stated before, with quite a small dropoff, maybe with 35/40% at the outer most ring respectively, it would be much better. In a siege situation, 2 skulks could do some serious damage to marines who are too grouped up, and allow for fades/lerks to finish those that don't die straight away.
Anyway. What I tried to say regardless of that was, that a more skillful approach would justify a damage increase (= a Xeno that can insta-kill an A3 marine). But than it needs to be counter-able by the marines. They (1) need to know, when it is comming at them (for example by a clear sound) and (2) they need to be able to counter it by killing the skulk before he goes of. This stands, at least if we are on the same ground, that 3 hives vs 2 CCs should be fair.
If I remember right, there is already a sound when activating Xeno. But wasn't Leap possible while Xeno is charging? There isn't much a marine can do, when a Xeno-Skulk leaps into the group. And if it is really this difficult to counter, the low damage is explainable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds about right. I would agree that 3 hives vs 2 CCs should be a decent game. As it stands, 3 hives is usually GG (obvious exceptions to prove the rule).
It should make a louder sound, I think - if I remember rightly from NS1 it was pretty obvious. Maybe it's the same and I have my memory glasses on wrong of course!
I don't mind leap being used during xeno if we leave the damage the same and include bite to be used.
Another option would be to link damage done to health remaining on the skulk (using up his life force in the explosion...). Then your skill is in getting into position with as much health as possible. Then you could have scope to increase the damage a fair bit to really reward skulks who do manage to xeno (with a loud warning sound) right in the middle of a pack/next to key structures etc.
Just some rambling thoughts really.
Just for the record, turtling against 3 hives didn't exist in NS1. Hive 3 abilities, coupled with the armour boost, was a definite signal that a game had been won. In NS2, getting three hives is a piece of piss on some maps so you have to design comparatively weak abilities to reflect that.
I think the brave thing to do is to instigate a deliberate imbalance at final-tier. One team should be more powerful so that we aren't left with turtles. This would act as a quasi-timelimit on games, where overall balance can still be 50/50 but any games that reach final-tier have a natural winner.
<!--quoteo(post=2065392:date=Jan 23 2013, 03:04 PM:name=Roobubba)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Roobubba @ Jan 23 2013, 03:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065392"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another option would be to link damage done to health remaining on the skulk (using up his life force in the explosion...). Then your skill is in getting into position with as much health as possible. Then you could have scope to increase the damage a fair bit to really reward skulks who do manage to xeno (with a loud warning sound) right in the middle of a pack/next to key structures etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really like this idea. It introduces a skill-gradient rather than a binary mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=2065395:date=Jan 23 2013, 03:09 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Jan 23 2013, 03:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065395"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the brave thing to do is to instigate a deliberate imbalance at final-tier.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I already stated on page 1 of this thread: This is a very boring mechanic. Why not showing the "aliens win" when aliens establish the 3rd hive instead of having the game go on with an intentional imbalance? The most fun games are those, that are fair until the "marines/aliens wins"-screen. Those where you can't tell who will win in the end. Skill should determine who wins a match. Not a mechanic like "we got the 3rd hive up".
Wiki is wrong, its normal damage
Well, alrighty then.
<!--quoteo(post=2065413:date=Jan 23 2013, 08:45 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Jan 23 2013, 08:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2065413"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I really like this idea. It introduces a skill-gradient rather than a binary mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wasn't that how it worked in NS1? It's been quite a while. Also, if the fog of time and nostalgia clears for a moment, you could leap and xeno in NS1 but it was tricky timing it as your energy dropped rather quickly as you built up toward xenociding. If you didn't time it just right you would wind up landing at their feet and not exploding right away, which isn't terribly useful.
Gorges are dirt cheap and skulks are always useful at any stage before assaulting the last base.
Any rts still up? Go munch them as a skulk. No RTs up? Gorges are OP, go lob some bile in the general direction of a base or waddle in behind the OP Onos with your heal button taped down.
The low value of skulks versus a final base is best left as a hint to grab a gorge.